getrichordie wrote: I have him late 2nd to undrafted.
Thats low considering he is more proven at Euroleague level than Bolmaro or Pokusevski, but I get it, his ceiling is not very high. That said, in a draft where Avdija is projected top 5, I can see Jokubaitis sneeking into first, unless non loterry talent is deep.
Is he really more proven? He's not a very proven 3-pt shooter. He doesn't get much lift off the ground either.
His A/TO ratio is pretty poor for a ball-handler and he doesn't rack up a bunch of STOCKs.
He's not super athletic either.
He's definitely an interesting prospect to keep an eye on, though. He looks pretty comfortable with his off-hand and looks a bit craftier than other guards in this draft.
Late 2nd draft and stash flier makes the most sense to me as a best outcome.
Well, he had good stretches in Euroleague, which is already more than these other guys have. But at the same thing its a negative, because since we have seen Jokubaitis play against high level opposition, his weaknesses are clearly exposed, where with Pokusevski especially, hes a flat out cat in the bag, and people just love to gamble. I like Pokusevski, but it is much easier to look good on Olympiacos second team than on Zagiris.
Jokubaitis is terribly unathletic, but he is 6'5 and strong, bigger than most point guards, so I have slight hope that he can make up for his lack of athleticism with his size.
Stillwater wrote:The fact some have Daniel Oturu undrafted when the same people claim Wiseman is a better prospect than the high iq Okongwu is hilarious to me. Oturu has actually shown better hops than Wiseman better mobility and has center length. And the funny part is they are both very similar ceiling rim running/protection lob catching average at best iq bigs who think they are 1st option embiid clones smh
This is a really bad take.
Oturu/Wiseman doesn't get to decide how his coach uses him at the college level.
LMAO.
Its only a bad take if you think Wiseman is a higher iq prospect which didnt show in hs or his short run in college and its only a bad take if you think 2 inches of head height and ws are the difference between a top 5 pick and a late 2nd to undrafted one. Btw these talk down jabs from you are not appreciated but if anything are just a joke to me given how wrong you are about so many of these prospects.
SUNDOWN BRINGS A WELCOME CHANGE TO EVERYTHING THAT'S HIDING
Stillwater wrote:The fact some have Daniel Oturu undrafted when the same people claim Wiseman is a better prospect than the high iq Okongwu is hilarious to me. Oturu has actually shown better hops than Wiseman better mobility and has center length. And the funny part is they are both very similar ceiling rim running/protection lob catching average at best iq bigs who think they are 1st option embiid clones smh
Oturu/Wiseman doesn't get to decide how his coach uses him at the college level.
LMAO.
Its only a bad take if you think Wiseman is a higher iq prospect which didnt show in hs or his short run in college and its only a bad take if you think 2 inches of head height and ws are the difference between a top 5 pick and a late 2nd to undrafted one. Btw these talk down jabs from you are not appreciated but if anything are just a joke to me given how wrong you are about so many of these prospects.
I apologize if expressing my opinion comes off as "jabs" or whatever, but not my intent.
IQ is one part of the picture.
And Wiseman is the better athlete. It's not a couple of inches. It's 3 inches to be exact and the wingspan difference and standing reach difference is even larger.
Size matters in the NBA, especially the closer to the basket you get and if you don't think that, I'm not sure why I'm even having a conversation with you.
And again, even if it is a 3 game sample size, Onyeka hasn't shown the same level of dominance Wiseman did. Easy to ignore it, of course, especially when you are rooting for Onyeka.
But Wiseman's sheer dominance in those 3 games shouldn't be understated when comparing the two. He's only going to get better as well.
And Okongwu had way more opportunities to show he was more dominant than Wiseman than in his 3 games, and while he did come close, he didn't.
Catchall wrote:Bolmaro should have gone a few spots ago. Ramsey should be getting picked right about now. I think Reggie Perry is very likely going to be a better player than Grant Williams. Elijah Hughes is going to start showing up on some teams' radars at this stage. Some teams like Zeke Nnaji as this year's rim runner with big hair. Measurements are going to be key for him. Vernon Carey is going to kill teams like the Rockets that play small, but I don't know if he guards on the other end. I wonder if he can lose 10 - 15 lbs., hit 3s and be Jontay Porter without the injuries.
Chris Smith is a better prospect than Hughes, IMO.
I just don't understand what Hughes appeal is besides having a good body and decent athleticism for a wing. He's not a good shooter. Not someone you really want handling the ball and he's unproven defensively.
One thing that intrigued me when watching Carey is how fast he reads and reacts (doesn't have lateral agility to take advantage of this) on the defensive end of the floor at times.
It's at the least, somewhat enticing but you have to wonder how he ever improves his agility and fully takes advantage of his ability to read and react, because without it he is a massive liability on that end.
I don't agree with the "bad awareness" argument for players coming into the league. It's the one thing that can be coached and learned through practice and watching film. The "has poor awareness" argument was one of the reasons Kelly Oubre dropped to the mid first-round in 2015. To me, it's a non-issue. Either a player has good reactions or he doesn't.
Catchall wrote:Bolmaro should have gone a few spots ago. Ramsey should be getting picked right about now. I think Reggie Perry is very likely going to be a better player than Grant Williams. Elijah Hughes is going to start showing up on some teams' radars at this stage. Some teams like Zeke Nnaji as this year's rim runner with big hair. Measurements are going to be key for him. Vernon Carey is going to kill teams like the Rockets that play small, but I don't know if he guards on the other end. I wonder if he can lose 10 - 15 lbs., hit 3s and be Jontay Porter without the injuries.
Chris Smith is a better prospect than Hughes, IMO.
I just don't understand what Hughes appeal is besides having a good body and decent athleticism for a wing. He's not a good shooter. Not someone you really want handling the ball and he's unproven defensively.
Hughes has pretty prototypical size and athleticism for an NBA wing. He's a volume shooter who projects in the 37% range from 3pt due, in part, to his 81% FT%. He's also okay on defense. At the end of the 1st round or early 2nd round, he's appealing.
Catchall wrote:Bolmaro should have gone a few spots ago. Ramsey should be getting picked right about now. I think Reggie Perry is very likely going to be a better player than Grant Williams. Elijah Hughes is going to start showing up on some teams' radars at this stage. Some teams like Zeke Nnaji as this year's rim runner with big hair. Measurements are going to be key for him. Vernon Carey is going to kill teams like the Rockets that play small, but I don't know if he guards on the other end. I wonder if he can lose 10 - 15 lbs., hit 3s and be Jontay Porter without the injuries.
Chris Smith is a better prospect than Hughes, IMO.
I just don't understand what Hughes appeal is besides having a good body and decent athleticism for a wing. He's not a good shooter. Not someone you really want handling the ball and he's unproven defensively.
Hughes has pretty prototypical size and athleticism for an NBA wing. He's a volume shooter who projects in the 37% range from 3pt due, in part, to his 81% FT%. He's also okay on defense. At the end of the 1st round or early 2nd round, he's appealing.
So you think Hughes is going to be as good of a 3-pt shooter as Saddiq Bey then?
I would take Tankathon's projections with a grain of salt. Their projections are all over the place.
Catchall wrote:I don't agree with the "bad awareness" argument for players coming into the league. It's the one thing that can be coached and learned through practice and watching film. The "has poor awareness" argument was one of the reasons Kelly Oubre dropped to the mid first-round in 2015. To me, it's a non-issue. Either a player has good reactions or he doesn't.
What do you mean by "good reactions"?
If a player reacts quickly, but wrongly, to a play, does it even matter? I would disagree on the awareness part. Yes, it can get better, but it's not something easily fixed, IMO. You never hear about anyone suddenly having more vision when it comes to passing. That's no different than having good awareness on the defensive side or offensive side.
Yes, players can be taught to think about the game differently, especially the younger they are, but habits can be difficult to break and good habits are even harder to develop.
I'd actually say it's one of the more difficult flaws to fix via coaching. It's up there with fixing shots.
getrichordie wrote: Chris Smith is a better prospect than Hughes, IMO.
I just don't understand what Hughes appeal is besides having a good body and decent athleticism for a wing. He's not a good shooter. Not someone you really want handling the ball and he's unproven defensively.
Hughes has pretty prototypical size and athleticism for an NBA wing. He's a volume shooter who projects in the 37% range from 3pt due, in part, to his 81% FT%. He's also okay on defense. At the end of the 1st round or early 2nd round, he's appealing.
So you think Hughes is going to be as good of a 3-pt shooter as Saddiq Bey then?
I would take Tankathon's projections with a grain of salt. Their projections are all over the place.
They could be close. Bey is probably going to be a bit better on catch-and-shoot, and Hughes is better off the dribble. Hughes shoots a high volume, which is a talent in and of itself, and he'll likely take more attempts that Bey.
Catchall wrote: Hughes has pretty prototypical size and athleticism for an NBA wing. He's a volume shooter who projects in the 37% range from 3pt due, in part, to his 81% FT%. He's also okay on defense. At the end of the 1st round or early 2nd round, he's appealing.
So you think Hughes is going to be as good of a 3-pt shooter as Saddiq Bey then?
I would take Tankathon's projections with a grain of salt. Their projections are all over the place.
They could be close. Bey is probably going to be a bit better on catch-and-shoot, and Hughes is better off the dribble. Hughes shoots a high volume, which is a talent in and of itself, and he'll likely take more attempts that Bey.
If Hughes is better off the dribble and not great at C&S, that's a problem. He's not a guy you want with the ball in his hands unless it's an emergency situation.
Also, just did a quick google search after writing the above statement. This is what I found regarding what scouts are saying about Hughes (per The Athletic):
Spoiler:
• “Given the direction of the league, he could be a better pro than he is a college player. I think he’s that good as a shooter, as a playmaker. Natural shooter and scorer with touch. Good size at the guard spot.”
• “I really like him. The problem is that he’s had to play so much on-ball (offense) that we don’t see all that he can truly do. He’s much better off the ball. He’ll go in the middle of the second round, easily.”
• “He can’t shoot as well as people say he can. He hasn’t changed since I saw him in the fall. He’s not draftable. He doesn’t create for others. He’s just another G-League player out of Syracuse.”
• “Who drafts him is going to be just as important as where he goes. I think he’ll be better in a system where they run screens for him, where he can catch and shoot, rather than create a lot off of the dribble.”
• “He’s not as athletic as he looks, and his low shooting percentages are really concerning to me. We wouldn’t take him for that reason.”
...
Regarding his finishing ability:
Spoiler:
Hughes has beaten defenders with a quick first step. He’s a strong dunker. He has a nice teardrop. But he has hardly showcased his left hand in traffic, and he misses a lot of layups. His overall finishing is suspect. It’s the least-developed area of his game.
“I’m not sure why he’s a bad finisher,” one of the Eastern Conference scouts said. “It’s not a huge concern I have, but you do want a jump shooter to at least be able to make his layups. He’s not shown an ability to make simple plays at the rim. It’s a little worrisome.”
Said another scout: “When he misses all of these layups, it makes him seem like he’s soft.”
Added a third scout: “His finishing is just so-so. That will probably keep him from being a first-rounder. Being able to finish is the missing ingredient.”
getrichordie wrote: So you think Hughes is going to be as good of a 3-pt shooter as Saddiq Bey then?
I would take Tankathon's projections with a grain of salt. Their projections are all over the place.
They could be close. Bey is probably going to be a bit better on catch-and-shoot, and Hughes is better off the dribble. Hughes shoots a high volume, which is a talent in and of itself, and he'll likely take more attempts that Bey.
If Hughes is better off the dribble and not great at C&S, that's a problem. He's not a guy you want with the ball in his hands unless it's an emergency situation.
Also, just did a quick google search after writing the above statement. This is what I found regarding what scouts are saying about Hughes (per The Athletic):
Spoiler:
• “Given the direction of the league, he could be a better pro than he is a college player. I think he’s that good as a shooter, as a playmaker. Natural shooter and scorer with touch. Good size at the guard spot.”
• “I really like him. The problem is that he’s had to play so much on-ball (offense) that we don’t see all that he can truly do. He’s much better off the ball. He’ll go in the middle of the second round, easily.”
• “He can’t shoot as well as people say he can. He hasn’t changed since I saw him in the fall. He’s not draftable. He doesn’t create for others. He’s just another G-League player out of Syracuse.”
• “Who drafts him is going to be just as important as where he goes. I think he’ll be better in a system where they run screens for him, where he can catch and shoot, rather than create a lot off of the dribble.”
• “He’s not as athletic as he looks, and his low shooting percentages are really concerning to me. We wouldn’t take him for that reason.”
...
Regarding his finishing ability:
Spoiler:
Hughes has beaten defenders with a quick first step. He’s a strong dunker. He has a nice teardrop. But he has hardly showcased his left hand in traffic, and he misses a lot of layups. His overall finishing is suspect. It’s the least-developed area of his game.
“I’m not sure why he’s a bad finisher,” one of the Eastern Conference scouts said. “It’s not a huge concern I have, but you do want a jump shooter to at least be able to make his layups. He’s not shown an ability to make simple plays at the rim. It’s a little worrisome.”
Said another scout: “When he misses all of these layups, it makes him seem like he’s soft.”
Added a third scout: “His finishing is just so-so. That will probably keep him from being a first-rounder. Being able to finish is the missing ingredient.”
According to Chad Ford, some teams have Hughes as a 1st-round pick. This isn't a year where you'll get a lot of consensus on players at this stage of the draft.
Catchall wrote:According to Chad Ford, some teams have Hughes as a 1st-round pick. This isn't a year where you'll get a lot of consensus on players at this stage of the draft.
I wouldn't trust Chad Ford. Not saying he is wrong. He could be telling the truth, but he's done some pretty deceptive stuff to improve his image in the past.
Catchall wrote:I don't agree with the "bad awareness" argument for players coming into the league. It's the one thing that can be coached and learned through practice and watching film. The "has poor awareness" argument was one of the reasons Kelly Oubre dropped to the mid first-round in 2015. To me, it's a non-issue. Either a player has good reactions or he doesn't.
What do you mean by "good reactions"?
Quick to the ball on rebounds. Quick off the floor to contest shots in and around his area. Able to change direction on defense to stay with players. Quick hands and feet. Able to get 50-50 balls. Etc.
getrichordie wrote: If a player reacts quickly, but wrongly, to a play, does it even matter? I would disagree on the awareness part. Yes, it can get better, but it's not something easily fixed, IMO. You never hear about anyone suddenly having more vision when it comes to passing. That's no different than having good awareness on the defensive side or offensive side.
Yes, players can be taught to think about the game differently, especially the younger they are, but habits can be difficult to break and good habits are even harder to develop.
I'd actually say it's one of the more difficult flaws to fix via coaching. It's up there with fixing shots.
There isn't a good way to quantify the idea of having awareness. If a player is putting up 17 pts. and 10 rebs., if he's shooting a TS% of 58%+, if he's getting to the foul line 6+ times per game, if he's averaging ~2.5 assists, plus a block and a steal--all of this demonstrates that a player has feel for the game. Whatever level of "awareness" the player has supposedly, it isn't showing up in stats that hurt his team.
If a guy misses defensive rotations, if his timing on setting a screen is off, if he's not where he's supposed to be on the floor, etc., then all of this can be corrected by pointing it out and fixing. However, if a guy is missing rotations and having defensive lapses because he's too slow or just too lazy, then that may be a problem that can't be fixed.
Catchall wrote:According to Chad Ford, some teams have Hughes as a 1st-round pick. This isn't a year where you'll get a lot of consensus on players at this stage of the draft.
I wouldn't trust Chad Ford. Not saying he is wrong. He could be telling the truth, but he's done some pretty deceptive stuff to improve his image in the past.
I wouldn't put too much stock in anecdotes from a few random scouts either.
Catchall wrote:According to Chad Ford, some teams have Hughes as a 1st-round pick. This isn't a year where you'll get a lot of consensus on players at this stage of the draft.
I wouldn't trust Chad Ford. Not saying he is wrong. He could be telling the truth, but he's done some pretty deceptive stuff to improve his image in the past.
I wouldn't put too much stock in anecdotes from a few random scouts either.
getrichordie wrote: I wouldn't trust Chad Ford. Not saying he is wrong. He could be telling the truth, but he's done some pretty deceptive stuff to improve his image in the past.
I wouldn't put too much stock in anecdotes from a few random scouts either.
getrichordie wrote: Oturu/Wiseman doesn't get to decide how his coach uses him at the college level.
LMAO.
Its only a bad take if you think Wiseman is a higher iq prospect which didnt show in hs or his short run in college and its only a bad take if you think 2 inches of head height and ws are the difference between a top 5 pick and a late 2nd to undrafted one. Btw these talk down jabs from you are not appreciated but if anything are just a joke to me given how wrong you are about so many of these prospects.
I apologize if expressing my opinion comes off as "jabs" or whatever, but not my intent.
IQ is one part of the picture.
And Wiseman is the better athlete. It's not a couple of inches. It's 3 inches to be exact and the wingspan difference and standing reach difference is even larger.
Size matters in the NBA, especially the closer to the basket you get and if you don't think that, I'm not sure why I'm even having a conversation with you.
And again, even if it is a 3 game sample size, Onyeka hasn't shown the same level of dominance Wiseman did. Easy to ignore it, of course, especially when you are rooting for Onyeka.
But Wiseman's sheer dominance in those 3 games shouldn't be understated when comparing the two. He's only going to get better as well.
And Okongwu had way more opportunities to show he was more dominant than Wiseman than in his 3 games, and while he did come close, he didn't.
"Close, but no cigar."
See thats what i am talking about you really think Wiseman is the better athlete but he never showed that he has an elite 2nd jump or anything close to it and neither has Oturu but Oturu has quick feet is a proven high motor offensive rebounder with a 7'4" wingspan and better hops than Wiseman. At 6'10 actual vs Wiseman listed 7'2 in shoes i am guessing the actual difference is negligible. The entire point here is you cant with a straight face say Wiseman is a lottery pick and at the same time say Oturu isnt without sounding pretty uninformed. I have Oturu as a first round lock and late lottery potential and Wiseman needing years to become a dominant offensive player besides dunks and will struggle to defend outside the paint. Oturu showed enough shooting a decent % albeit low attempts from 3. Either way a hell of a lot better than Wisemans 4 for 27 or whatever the hell it was from deep his senior yr. he blocked three shots vs. South Carolina State, five shots against Illinois-Chicago, and one shot against Oregon his defense at the rim is based less on reading plays like Okongwu and more on reacting to slow unathletic offensive scrubs on bad teams.i would not take anything he did in college and factor it into my assessment of his potential. He has enormous potential and a far lower floor than some other options.
SUNDOWN BRINGS A WELCOME CHANGE TO EVERYTHING THAT'S HIDING
Stillwater wrote:Its only a bad take if you think Wiseman is a higher iq prospect which didnt show in hs or his short run in college and its only a bad take if you think 2 inches of head height and ws are the difference between a top 5 pick and a late 2nd to undrafted one. Btw these talk down jabs from you are not appreciated but if anything are just a joke to me given how wrong you are about so many of these prospects.
I apologize if expressing my opinion comes off as "jabs" or whatever, but not my intent.
IQ is one part of the picture.
And Wiseman is the better athlete. It's not a couple of inches. It's 3 inches to be exact and the wingspan difference and standing reach difference is even larger.
Size matters in the NBA, especially the closer to the basket you get and if you don't think that, I'm not sure why I'm even having a conversation with you.
And again, even if it is a 3 game sample size, Onyeka hasn't shown the same level of dominance Wiseman did. Easy to ignore it, of course, especially when you are rooting for Onyeka.
But Wiseman's sheer dominance in those 3 games shouldn't be understated when comparing the two. He's only going to get better as well.
And Okongwu had way more opportunities to show he was more dominant than Wiseman than in his 3 games, and while he did come close, he didn't.
"Close, but no cigar."
See thats what i am talking about you really think Wiseman is the better athlete but he never showed that he has an elite 2nd jump or anything close to it and neither has Oturu but Oturu has quick feet is a proven high motor offensive rebounder with a 7'4" wingspan and better hops than Wiseman. At 6'10 actual vs Wiseman listed 7'2 in shoes i am guessing the actual difference is negligible. The entire point here is you cant with a straight face say Wiseman is a lottery pick and at the same time say Oturu isnt without sounding pretty uninformed. I have Oturu as a first round lock and late lottery potential and Wiseman needing years to become a dominant offensive player besides dunks and will struggle to defend outside the paint. Oturu showed enough shooting a decent % albeit low attempts from 3. Either way a hell of a lot better than Wisemans 4 for 27 or whatever the hell it was from deep his senior yr. he blocked three shots vs. South Carolina State, five shots against Illinois-Chicago, and one shot against Oregon his defense at the rim is based less on reading plays like Okongwu and more on reacting to slow unathletic offensive scrubs on bad teams.i would not take anything he did in college and factor it into my assessment of his potential. He has enormous potential and a far lower floor than some other options.
I have Okongwu as having better hops than Oturu. It's one of the reasons why he's pretty effective despite being a bit undersized.
Oturu is underrated, though. I'll agree with you. Keep in mind he's played a lot more games than Wiseman so he's had more chances to show case his game.
Wiseman is just scratching the surface of what he can do and yeah he's raw. He would be less raw and look more polished had he played more college games and this would be an entirely different conversation. Comparing Oturu to Wiseman is a weird comparison given than Oturu is further along in his development. Embiid doesn't have the quickest second jump either but he's still super impactful because of his elite size and standing reach. It will be the same way with Wiseman.
Regardless of the competition Wiseman faced, his debut numbers were historic. No other player (since 2008 I think) has done what he did in those 22 minutes. Other centers play bad teams too. They didn't do what he did.
Admittedly I'm someone who puts less stock than others in what happens in AAU. I look at AAU as a time for a lot of experimentation for players that allows them to get a feel for their own game. Wiseman likely won't be shooting 3s out of the gate and that might be an undeveloped part of his game, but he's shown he can knock down mid-range shots at that level.
There is a chance, just like any other younger player in the draft, that he never puts enough together to be a truly significant piece in the NBA, enough so to warrant a top 5 pick, but the upside is definitely there and you take that risk with a Wiseman 100/100 just like you take the risk of a Joel Embiid.
It's never a good idea to marginalize a prospect's upside, like ever.
And you don't draft Wiseman for his O potential alone, you draft him for his rim-protecting, rim-running, and rebounding potential with plus mobility to bother players out to the perimeter as well.
This Wiseman hate is getting really overblown. If there was already a combine, this wouldn't even be a discussion.
