OBPM changes of the superstars in playoffs

[Odinn21]

Thanks for your work Odinn!

Shout out to Baron Davis:

2.2 obpm / 4.8 obpm / +2.6 / 50 / Baron Davis (2000-12)

I believe that's the largest improvement we've seen on an absolute scale, and even more dramatic proportionately.
Also would 20th or 21st on the list (before or after Karl Malone), which is certainly more than I think anyone was expecting.

I think your numbers are wrong though. Don't know why.

3.0 obpm / 4.5 obpm / +1.5 / 42 / Baron Davis (2001-07)
2.2 obpm / 4.0 obpm / +1.8 / 50 / Baron Davis (2000-12)

There's no way he could have had +4.8 obpm in 2000-12 time frame because '00 and '12 playoffs what separates the longer time frame and he had negative obpm in both playoffs.

His impact numbers were quite good though. He was one of the few guards with high obpm and high rapm.

[Doctor MJ]

Thanks for your work Odinn!

Shout out to Baron Davis:

2.2 obpm / 4.8 obpm / +2.6 / 50 / Baron Davis (2000-12)

I believe that's the largest improvement we've seen on an absolute scale, and even more dramatic proportionately.
Also would 20th or 21st on the list (before or after Karl Malone), which is certainly more than I think anyone was expecting.

I think your numbers are wrong though. Don't know why.

3.0 obpm / 4.5 obpm / +1.5 / 42 / Baron Davis (2001-07)
2.2 obpm / 4.0 obpm / +1.8 / 50 / Baron Davis (2000-12)

There's no way he could have had +4.8 obpm in 2000-12 time frame because '00 and '12 playoffs what separates the longer time frame and he had negative obpm in both playoffs.

His impact numbers were quite good though. He was one of the few guards with high obpm and high rapm.

Apologies, he went up to 4.0 not 4.8.

[Odinn21]

Apologies, he went up to 4.0 not 4.8.

A great call indeed. If you have other names those missing off the list, surely they're welcome.

[Doctor MJ]

Apologies, he went up to 4.0 not 4.8.

A great call indeed. If you have other names those missing off the list, surely they're welcome.

Looking and turns out Gus Williams looks like a 2.1 to 4.1 improvement.

[Odinn21]

Apologies, he went up to 4.0 not 4.8.

A great call indeed. If you have other names those missing off the list, surely they're welcome.

Looking and turns out Gus Williams looks like a 2.1 to 4.1 improvement.

I don't think he was a superstar but another great call. He made the list so up high.
Edit; He was more of a superstar than Baron Davis though.

3.3 obpm / 6.3 obpm / +3.0 / 47 / Gus Williams (1979-84)
I don't know which is more impressive; +3.0 or nearly doubling 3.3.

[Joey Wheeler]

Are you going to agree that Reggie Miller or Russell Westbrook was a better offensive player than Karl Malone or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Yes, of course. Not only are they better offensively, they are so by a bigger margin than suggested by this stat.

[Odinn21]

Are you going to agree that Reggie Miller or Russell Westbrook was a better offensive player than Karl Malone or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Yes, of course. Not only are they better offensively, they are so by a bigger margin than suggested by this stat.

Why did you leave out this part?

I've been saying creating/running an offense perspective made us overlook carrying an offense.

Harden is a better offensive player than Nowitzki, Wade and Bryant then, yes? Interestingly this works the other way looking at the quote above. But like I said next after that line; context.

Looking at those numbers and solely taking 'em at a face value lacks context and you also left out this part as well;

Like every other stats, numbers, these ones need context as well. Look at Harden and Durant, and then Wade. I'd take Wade to lead my offense in the playoffs without thinking twice. I just wanted to see the picture of BPM 2.0 with ElGee's approach. That's all.

[Joey Wheeler]

Are you going to agree that Reggie Miller or Russell Westbrook was a better offensive player than Karl Malone or Hakeem Olajuwon?

Yes, of course. Not only are they better offensively, they are so by a bigger margin than suggested by this stat.

Why did you leave out this part?

I've been saying creating/running an offense perspective made us overlook carrying an offense.

Harden is a better offensive player than Nowitzki, Wade and Bryant then, yes? Interestingly this works the other way looking at the quote above. But like I said next after that line; context.

Looking at those numbers and solely taking 'em at a face value lacks context and you also left out this part as well;

Like every other stats, numbers, these ones need context as well. Look at Harden and Durant, and then Wade. I'd take Wade to lead my offense in the playoffs without thinking twice. I just wanted to see the picture of BPM 2.0 with ElGee's approach. That's all.

Are you saying carrying an offense is important? That doesn't help your argument; out of the 4 players in question, Westbrook is the only one capable of that, the other 3 aren't even capable of being primary ballhandlers.

And I'm not saying this stat should be taken at face value at all; as I said, I believe it undersells just how much better Westbrook/Reggie are on offense compared to Hakeem/Malone, so obviously I'm not taking it as gospel.

I'd take Durant out of those 3 players without thinking much too. Speaking of Durant, why did you include his first two playoffs in this sample (2010 and 2011) and not his two FMVP runs where he was shattering efficiency records? 2012-2019 should clearly have been the time frame. If it's because the team was stacked, then might as well remove 2017-2019 for Curry as well?

[Odinn21]

Are you saying carrying an offense is important? That doesn't help your argument; out of the 4 players in question, Westbrook is the only one capable of that, the other 3 aren't even capable of being primary ballhandlers.

And I'm not saying this stat should be taken at face value at all; as I said, I believe it undersells just how much better Westbrook/Reggie are on offense compared to Hakeem/Malone, so obviously I'm not taking it as gospel.

I'd take Durant out of those 3 players without thinking much too. Speaking of Durant, why did you include his first two playoffs in this sample (2010 and 2011) and not his two FMVP runs where he was shattering efficiency records? 2012-2019 should clearly have been the time frame. If it's because the team was stacked, then might as well remove 2017-2019 for Curry as well?

What an absurd and pointless line of arguments.

By your logic, Shaq, Nowitzki, many more bigs, didn’t carry an offense because they wern’t ball handlers.

It was Curry’s success. Not Durant. Durant didn’t create that offense. So, I’m not going to remove someone who was the cornerstone of their system.

I posted the numbers to show a baseline in change. You don’t happy with some of my selections? Want to see how KD would compare in GS? You can still check out whoever you have in mind and compare them to the others.

I stated my intention clearly. I also stated many other things as context and observations. Don’t like it? You don’t have to.

This is not a conversation that can yield any fruit considering your state of mind, at least based on how you reflect it.

Cheers.

[NO-KG-AI]

Why are people so focused on differential? The difference does not matter. What matters is the actual numbers and how to compares? People use ridiculous arguments like this to downplay Curry and how amazing he is in the playoffs when he still has the 4th highest obpm on this list. Only mj,Kareem and LeBron are better.

For example Curry has a negative 1.3 drop regular to postseason and still has a higher obpm than Shaq who is considered to this unstoppable player in the postseason. What does that tell you? It tells me how dominate And all time great he is that he can drop that much and still be better than almost everyone in nba history.

It tells you that the sample size also matters. Shaq's goes from 1995-2003 on a variety of pretty good to great teams, and different years from Shaq. Curry's is his absolute peak, on significantly more stacked team than anyone.

Shaq's goes to 7.3 for instance if you take his 1999-2003, and Curry goes to 6.4 if you add his first two years. He's still been a great playoff performer for the most part. Chris Paul for instance has a 5 year best of 7.4, Magic 6.8, Larry 6.5. 4-5 years is different than comparing a 8-12 year stretch.

We'll see how Curry's holds up. The Warriors can still get back to being a top tier team, but they're mortal now, and he's going to probably have to go back to more heavy lifting. I

[70sFan]

A great call indeed. If you have other names those missing off the list, surely they're welcome.

Looking and turns out Gus Williams looks like a 2.1 to 4.1 improvement.

I don't think he was a superstar but another great call. He made the list so up high.
Edit; He was more of a superstar than Baron Davis though.

3.3 obpm / 6.3 obpm / +3.0 / 47 / Gus Williams (1979-84)
I don't know which is more impressive; +3.0 or nearly doubling 3.3.

I was telling you all that Gus was a monster

[Doctor MJ]

Looking and turns out Gus Williams looks like a 2.1 to 4.1 improvement.

I don't think he was a superstar but another great call. He made the list so up high.
Edit; He was more of a superstar than Baron Davis though.

3.3 obpm / 6.3 obpm / +3.0 / 47 / Gus Williams (1979-84)
I don't know which is more impressive; +3.0 or nearly doubling 3.3.

I was telling you all that Gus was a monster

Eye-opening for me to see him through this lens. I missed it in my previous analysis.

[70sFan]

I don't think he was a superstar but another great call. He made the list so up high.
Edit; He was more of a superstar than Baron Davis though.

3.3 obpm / 6.3 obpm / +3.0 / 47 / Gus Williams (1979-84)
I don't know which is more impressive; +3.0 or nearly doubling 3.3.

I was telling you all that Gus was a monster

Eye-opening for me to see him through this lens. I missed it in my previous analysis.

So Gus Williams over Isiah Thomas confirmed?

[Joey Wheeler]

Are you saying carrying an offense is important? That doesn't help your argument; out of the 4 players in question, Westbrook is the only one capable of that, the other 3 aren't even capable of being primary ballhandlers.

And I'm not saying this stat should be taken at face value at all; as I said, I believe it undersells just how much better Westbrook/Reggie are on offense compared to Hakeem/Malone, so obviously I'm not taking it as gospel.

I'd take Durant out of those 3 players without thinking much too. Speaking of Durant, why did you include his first two playoffs in this sample (2010 and 2011) and not his two FMVP runs where he was shattering efficiency records? 2012-2019 should clearly have been the time frame. If it's because the team was stacked, then might as well remove 2017-2019 for Curry as well?

What an absurd and pointless line of arguments.

By your logic, Shaq, Nowitzki, many more bigs, didn’t carry an offense because they wern’t ball handlers.

It was Curry’s success. Not Durant. Durant didn’t create that offense. So, I’m not going to remove someone who was the cornerstone of their system.

I posted the numbers to show a baseline in change. You don’t happy with some of my selections? Want to see how KD would compare in GS? You can still check out whoever you have in mind and compare them to the others.

I stated my intention clearly. I also stated many other things as context and observations. Don’t like it? You don’t have to.

This is not a conversation that can yield any fruit considering your state of mind, at least based on how you reflect it.

Cheers.

Uh yes? If you need someone else to be the primary handler and playmaker, you're not carrying the offense. We're really stretching the definition of carrying if we refer to someone like Shaq as someone who carried the offense.

That makes no sense, why was it Curry's success and not Durant? By the very metric you chose, obpm, Durant graded higher in the playoffs in the 3 years they played together. 3 years averaging 7.2 OBPM are not included, yet his 2010 and 2011 seasons when he was still very young and had no playoff experience are? But Curry's or Harden's 2013 and 2014 seasons aren't?

Also, it's not the first time in a discussion with me that you announce you won't continue the discussion. There's no need for announcements, if you don't want to engage with me just don't. But yeah, cheers I guess...

[70sFan]

It's true that centers need ball-handlers and passers to anchor the offense. Just like ball-handlers needs shooters and inside finishers...

It's pointless discussion, anybody who believes that Kareem is not offensive anchor or that he's not capable of carrying offense by himself have such a different view on basketball than me that discussion won't bring anything valuable.

[Jaivl]

Not like I care much about BPM, but DAMN Kareem.

[Joey Wheeler]

It's true that centers need ball-handlers and passers to anchor the offense. Just like ball-handlers needs shooters and inside finishers...

It's pointless discussion, anybody who believes that Kareem is not offensive anchor or that he's not capable of carrying offense by himself have such a different view on basketball than me that discussion won't bring anything valuable.

Some players can do it all for a team's offense, be the lead ball handler, playmaker and scorer. That's what we refer to as a carry-job. Lebron James for instance is a guy capable of doing everything for a team's offense.

If you need other players to take key roles in the offense, you're not carrying anything by yourself. Let's look at what Kareem was up to when he didn't have an elite all-time guard next to him and his supposed offense-carrying ability was truly required:

1975 - missed the playoffs with a 38-44 record
1976 - missed the playoffs with a 40-42 record
1977 - swept in the CF, 53-29 record
1978 - barely make the playoffs, out in the 1st round, 45-37 record
1979 - backdoor swept in the second round, 47-35 record

These teams had some talent btw, Dantley was on them in 1978 and 1979 for instance.

Yet Kareem missed the playoffs twice in a row in the middle of his prime. If you remove Kareem from that team and add a prime James Harden or Westbrook instead, that team is going to be average ~50 wins for that span just due to their ability to actually carry an offense. If you add a Lebron James or Larry Bird instead, you'll be competitive in the playoffs and contend. It's not because these players are better than Kareem, they are just capable of filling far more gaps on offense. Kareem can't be a lead ballhandler/playmaker so there's a limited ceiling to what he can do offensively without proper help.

[Cavsfansince84]

Only change I'd make off hand is changing LeBron's prime years to go back to 06 or 07. I think he was definitely in his prime at that point.

[Odinn21]

Only change I'd make off hand is changing LeBron's prime years to go back to 06 or 07. I think he was definitely in his prime at that point.

Ah, this is that grey area about primes.

He was certainly among league's best players. But 2009 was the season he kept going at the level we'd get used to later. I can see both case working. Just went with the latter one.

---

I'm quite impressed by the persistence on lack of knowledge BTW.

Kareem missed the playoffs because the league had a dumb playoff format. Teams with worse records made the playoffs ahead of the Bucks in '75 and the Lakers in '76. In 1974-75 season, Kareem was injured at the start of the season and the team started the season with 1-13 in Kareem's absence.
It's so easy to talk actual knowledge like the circumstances didn't change. Like ever.

Kareem carried Oscar Robertson's sorry a.. to the NBA Finals in '74. Robertson had 6 points in game 7 of the NBA Finals with 2 for 13 shooting from the field.
Saying Kareem couldn't do anything without an atg PG is ignorant and arrogant as hell...

[Joey Wheeler]

Only change I'd make off hand is changing LeBron's prime years to go back to 06 or 07. I think he was definitely in his prime at that point.

I'm quite impressed by the persistence on lack of knowledge BTW.

Kareem missed the playoffs because the league had a dumb playoff format. Teams with worse records made the playoffs ahead of the Bucks in '75 and the Lakers in '76. In 1974-75 season, Kareem was injured at the start of the season and the team started the season with 1-13 in Kareem's absence.
It's so easy to talk actual knowledge like the circumstances didn't change. Like ever.

Kareem carried Oscar Robertson's sorry a.. to the NBA Finals in '74. Robertson had 6 points in game 7 of the NBA Finals with 2 for 13 shooting from the field.
Saying Kareem couldn't do anything without an atg PG is ignorant and arrogant as hell...

He missed it due to the dumb playoff format? I guess going 38-44 and 40-42 had nothing to do with it then? In 1975, he went 35-30 in the games he played, is this supposed to be impressive?

How did you manage to turn "can't carry an offense on his own" into "couldn't do anything"? And what do you mean arrogant - so having a different opinion than you about a basketball player means I'm full of myself? You either have some problems commanding the English language or are just plainly arguing in bad faith, hope it's the former...