REDOING THE NBA HALL OF FAME (active players!)

[penbeast0]

BAA/NBA/ABA playing careers only; we are not including college, Olympic, foreign, etc. You can select up to 10 players (you do not HAVE to fill out your list). They do not have to be in order. The 10 players with the most votes make the HOF. Voting will stay open as long as there is active interest. We take the top 10 votegetters, in case of a tie, I will go back and ask everyone to vote on just the tied players, ranking them in order with just 1st place votes counting, then 2nd if 1st ties again, etc.


[color=#0000BF]Duncan (penbeast0, trex_8063, Narigo, Dr Positivity, eminence, Doctor MJ, Dutchball97, Ryoga Hibiki)
Kobe (penbeast0, trex_8063, Narigo, Dr Positivity, eminence, Doctor MJ, Dutchball97, Ryoga Hibiki)
Garnett (penbeast0, trex_8063, Narigo, Dr Positivity, eminence, Doctor MJ, Dutchball97, Ryoga Hibiki)
Dirk (penbeast0, trex_8063, Narigo, Dr Positivity, eminence, Doctor MJ, Dutchball97, Ryoga Hibiki)
Wade (penbeast0, trex_8063, Narigo, Dr Positivity, eminence, Doctor MJ, Dutchball97, Ryoga Hibiki)

Manu (penbeast0, trex_8063, Narigo, Dr Positivity, eminence, Doctor MJ, Dutchball97, Ryoga Hibiki)
Pierce (penbeast0, trex_8063, Narigo, Dr Positivity, eminence, Doctor MJ, Dutchball97, Ryoga Hibiki)
Chris Bosh (penbeast0, trex_8063, Narigo, Dr Positivity, eminence, Doctor MJ, Dutchball97, Ryoga Hibiki)
Vince Carter (penbeast0, trex_8063, Narigo, Dr Positivity, eminence, Doctor MJ, Dutchball97, Ryoga Hibiki)

Tony Parker (penbeast0, trex_8063, Dr Positivity, eminence, Doctor MJ, Dutchball97, Ryoga Hibiki)

RealGM PC Board 2020 Hall of Fame: Table of Sheets

RealGM Hall of Fame Wall


Retired 1960 or before

Retired 1965 or before

Retired 1970 or before

Retired 1975 or before

Retired 1980 or before

Retired 1985 or before

Retired 1990 or before

Retired 1995 or before

Retired 2000 or before

Retired 2005 or before

Retired 2010 or before

Retired 2015 or before

Retired 2020 or before

[penbeast0]

Everyone in NBA history is eligible this time, including active players. Remember that it is just about NBA career as if the NBA had stopped forever at this point in time; NOT potential future careers. This should be one of our trickiest votes, not just because of the number of eligible stars but because there will be much more variation in how long people played. Has Giannis played enough years that his higher peak makes his career stronger than Pau Gasol? How much do you dock Kwame for only playing 2/3 of a season in Toronto?

Some guys with All-NBA awards that are still active:

Jokic
Embiid
Gobert

Giannis
Durant
LeBron

George
Kawhi
Griffin

Harden
Lilliard
Walker

Curry
Irving
Westbrook

A. Davis
Towns
Aldridge

Butler
DeRozan
Klay

D.Jordan
P.Gasol
Dwight Howard

Draymond
Cousins
M. Gasol

Lowry
Paul
Carmelo

Love
Rondo
Rose

Plus remember that all the players that were passed over in our last group are eligible too.

[Dutchball97]

This is gonna be an interesting one. I guess this is the place where we'll really see who is more about peak performance and who is more about career contributions. I think the most difficult choice for me personally will be whether to include Giannis or not.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

For this one 10 players are really to few, I am afraid.

LeBron
Curry
Durant
Harden
Westbrook
Giannis
Kawhi
are former MVPs who did more besides that MVP year (sorry D.Rose) + Kawhi hence absolute locks. I am already giving Giannis the second MVP, hence closing all discussions compared to a rose candidacy, if not he would be more open for discussion
Dwight
Pau Gasol
Paul
had full careers at very high level and shouldn't be in doubt, I guess

What is left? Based on Longevity probably Marc Gasol.
Davis hasn't done much in the post season, Lillard is great but maybe not great enough to pull it off, Klay and Dray probably need more all star years. Maybe Lowry? Not sure.

Edit: I put 11 guys, so no Marc Gasol andI think this is the only list possible, I assume it will be unanimous.
Only potential open point is Giannis, depending on how you evaluate this particular season.

[Dutchball97]

I'm going with

LeBron James
Kevin Durant
Steph Curry
Chris Paul
James Harden
Dwight Howard
Russell Westbrook
Kawhi Leonard
Pau Gasol
Giannis Antetokounmpo

HM: Damian Lillard, Anthony Davis, Paul George, Rajon Rondo, Derrick Rose

[Doctor MJ]

For me the first 9 spots are pretty set:

LeBron
Steph
CP3
Durant
Kawhi
Harden
Gasol
Westbrook
Giannis

For the last spot:

Dwight Howard is the obvious choice, but as y’all know I’m fussy about fussy players. The way he tied the Orlando in knots in those last couple years was very ugly, and since his time in Orlando was literally the only serious positive in his career - with negative years on several other franchises - it really eats what makes him a Hall candidate.

By contrast Draymond Green was arguably the MVP of the the best regular season team in history (wouldn’t make that argument myself, but Green was so profound that he made us think about it), and the second most important overall piece of the greatest 5 year franchise run since who even knows. He did all this with a game that is unusual and a leadership style that is one of a kind, and succeeded by breaking through where there was no red carpet laid out for him, which is much harder than the baby bird way many hyped guys are - where they are allowed to suck at first and still get playing time and primacy. Green got on the court by being valuable.

Now as I bring up Green, I have to note draftmates AD and Lillard. Most probably rank those two ahead of Green on best player and re-draft lists. It is very possible that each ends up ahead of Green when all is said and done but:

Lillard is a hero if you’re in Portland...but Portland isn’t necessary to mention at all for this era. Yes they got to the WCC last year, but as a joke. They have never been contenders. That’s not Lillard’s fault, as he’s a great player, but Lillard is also something of a lesser version of what’s already represented in the list above. If you were trying to boil down the era to it’s essential players, you could trim Lillard in a way you could not with Green.

Counter: Aside form Lillard being a more traditional star, Lillard’s leadership is an unambiguous positive at all times. Green gives and Green takes away. If you some it all up, maybe the Dame has it.

AD is tough because basically all of us have always seen him as the best player in the 2012 draft and he looks better than ever fitting in superbly with LeBron on the Lakers. But as of the end of last season he was a guy who had only ever played on NO, and to be honest you could write the history of the Pelicans without AD and not miss much. His time there is a fizzled firework that never went off, other than the ridiculous way he handled himself with his mid-season trade demand.

In no way did he do what Lillard did for Portland or Green did for Golden State. Through last season Davis is 3rd of that trio for career in my book, and it’s really not close.

And yet, If we were doing this after the finals this year, and the Lakers, say, won the chip with Davis flummoxing Giannis, I’d imagine just that complete season would be enough to put AD ahead of all 3 of these other guys fairly comfortably.

That may be what happens, but the playoffs have not happened yet, so how much can I let a partial regular season sway me?

Those are the guys in my mind for the last spot. Expecting Howard to get inducted, and when I think of how good he was at his peak and how long he has played, it feels silly to consider anyone else. But what he did to Orlando with his demands and uncertainty was really something awful, and not in anyway defensible based on looking at for #1 alone. Only a fool would have acted like this, and that fool was bound to act like this on pretty much any franchise given that Orlando had actually constructed a pretty miraculous good fit around him and he convinced himself that it was lacking.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[Dr Positivity]

Atm:

Lebron
Curry
Durant
Paul
Harden
Kawhi
Westbrook
Giannis
Pau Gasol
Marc Gasol

Wanted to put Draymond on but Marc has a longer career and was excellent.

[penbeast0]

In terms of sure things, I have LeBron, Curry, Durant, Paul, and Harden.

Giannis and Kawhi have short but high primes, Pau and Mark Gasol longer but less extreme peaks, Westbrook, Howard, and Green more ambiguous primes though certainly worth considering. Gobert has also been outstanding, more than Mark Gasol from what I've seen. And there are still Anthony Davis, Klay Thompson, and even Carmelo, Irving, or Lowry to consider. I'm a long way from being ready to vote.

[Narigo]

...

I changed my vote from Elton Brand to Tony Parker in the last thread

[penbeast0]

I changed my vote from Elton Brand to Tony Parker in the last thread

Ok, I saw the "OMG I forgot about Tony Parker" but you weren't explicit about changing it so I left it. If it had made a difference I would have asked for a clarification.

[Doctor MJ]

Okay, I think it's time for me to vote, and probably worth putting in a bit more description of how I see things.

One thing I will say, as we talk about peak vs longevity: At least in this project, I find myself much more focused on the "indelible impression" rather than cumulative career value added, which is closer to how I typically approach the Top 100. I'm going to have to think about what that means when I next do a 100.

But as an example of what that means: I think Bill Walton is infinitely more HOF worthy than any other Blazer, even while I can say quite rationally that you draft Drexler or Lillard over Walton on literally any team because of Walton's injury concerns. It's frankly a miracle that Walton had the brief glorious, relatively healthy, peak that he did...but he did do it, and it remains THE story to tell about Portland Trail Blazer history.

I'm going to have to think if I really feel comfortable, say, leaving Walton out of my 100 as I think about all this. The justification would be clear "Expected Value Added for your franchise", but how worthwhile is any exercise along these lines when you don't include someone like Walton?

Without further ado:

LeBron James - The King is the King of the Class, obviously. It's not an absolute given that he'll remain the King of this group when all is said and done, but to this point, easy call.

Steph Curry - The man who seemed to take LeBron's crown. LeBron grabbed it back with the '16 finals and the presence of Durant has basically cemented the pecking order in place from that point onward. I'll say though, however much of a long shot it might seem now, if the Warriors come back and win more titles with the Curry core, it may well completely change how we evaluate these guys again.

Chris Paul - An incredible career with tremendous impact for a very long time. His ceiling is seen as lower as the guys I'm listing around him for understandable reasons and this may well lower him among this bunch in the years to come. As I say that, when ESPN came our with their top player list recently, Paul was way, way too low and I don't think there's any reasonable defense for that.

Kevin Durant - I go back & forth on Paul vs Durant. What I think we all believe is that Durant's game can scale to the toughest of competition in a way that Paul's can't quite. But while Durant and his supporters will point to the Finals MVPs and say "What more could you possibly ask for?", the reality is that Durant has always had something of a struggle when it comes to consistently resonating with his team context. The Thunder were notoriously better with him on the bench those first couple years, and while I'm low on Westbrook when you look at +/- stuff from the duration of their time together in OKC, it's really not all that clear cut that Durant was the more impactful player. Then you get to Golden State and you have basically one glorious year where Durant is trying to fit in with their scheme in a way that lets everyone shine before he starts pouting and pulling away from the flow.

I'll be up front that I do hold it against Durant some of the attitude I've seen from him. I also simply see that Durant is a tortured guy who cares so much about being seen as the best but has remarkably backward instincts when he chases it. And those instincts have no put him in Brooklyn with Kyrie Irving. I feel like he's basically dug his own basketball grave there and we're going to see his stature wane over the next few years. But I could be wrong. If Durant gets a Finals MVP in 2021, it will totally change how the basketball world sees his career.

Kawhi Leonard - I've said multiple times before that when you force your way out of a place that helped you shine, you better be right. Well, Kawhi led Toronto to a title. It's a bit like Babe Ruth calling his home run before he hit it. Kawhi's an icon now, and if he leads the Los Angeles "We will be a joke forever" Clippers to the title, you're really talking about someone with a singular career.

I will say Kawhi's longevity is quite weak, and I've yet to be convinced that the way Kawhi treated the Spurs was at all reasonable. I don't forget these things, but it's hard to hold them too much against him at this moment.

James Harden - A made scientist among basketball players. I've said for a while now that I won't be shocked if Harden takes one more leap and becomes the best player in the playoffs, but to this point, he's still stymied below that top tier.

Pau Gasol - I have to acknowledge that his play for Spain does influence me here (and the same was true for Ginobili's Argentina play). I'm not factoring it in as another achievement, but it helps me see Gasol thrive in more contexts. Gasol though, I will always think primarily in terms of his arrival on the Lakers. It felt like a basketball miracle. I had no idea he'd be able to fit in so immediately into an offensive scheme that in practice was proving clunky year after year. The Triangle is great if you've got the basketball brains for it. Gasol's basketball brain seemed to make sense of it better than anyone in Phil Jackson's entire coaching career. Without that, Kobe goes down as a selfish ballhog who chased championships out of town with Shaq. With Gasol, Kobe has become a basketball God.

Giannis Antetokounmpo - I'm a bit uncomfortable cementing Giannis in the rare air. The Bucks could still end up falling apart if they don't win a title, and they have specific concerns to assuage in order to win that chip. Nevertheless, Giannis won an MVP and then improved considerably, and to my mind Giannis is the only reasonable choice for either MVP or DPOY presuming we see the regular season as done. This is a big deal, and when you consider where Giannis came from, it's an epic story begging to be told.

Russell Westbrook - As folks know, I'm very critical of Westbrook. My time with Russ begins as a UCLA fan seeing him play a role that to me would have been highly scalable for championship teams...only to see OKC use him in an entirely different way that I've always felt lowered his team's ceiling. That's on OKC to be sure, but it's also pretty clear that Westbrook wasn't exactly receptive to coaches trying to smarten up his game. Billy Donovan looked like a genius in college coaching Joakim Noah and Al Horford, looked like a moron with Russ, and now looks like he actually knows what he's doing now that Russ is gone.

With that said, Westbrook was one of two central players on an OKC core that could have easily won a title, proved he could do his think without other talent around him, and this year showed that with a creative enough coach, you could do something very different with Westbrook that also worked. And through this entire time, Westbrook was always "on". He was always giving his all for his teams while playing a style that is utterly unique to himself. The Triple Doubles may overrate him, but the man behing those Triple Doubles is very much worthy of historical study.

And the final spot...


Draymond Green - Look, all 3 of the Heatles are locks for the Hall because of what they did as Heatles...and what the Warriors did was a LOT more impressive. To me it's an absolute given that the core trio of those Warriors (Curry, Green, Thompson) are going to be in the Hall just the same as James/Wade/Bosh, it's just a question of how they stack up against other Hall locks.

Between the 3 main Warriors, Curry is clearly the first guy you induct.
Between Dray and Klay, while Klay may end up the greater player when all is said and done, the reality is that Draymond Green has been the more valuable piece so far. There was a legit question of who was more essential to the 73-9 Warriors between Curry and Green, and Thompson wasn't in that discussion. You add in Green's force of personality and the powerful effects that had on the Warriors' winning ways, along with the way he broke through to force his position on the team in a way Klay did not, and Green is just the more historically noteworthy guy.

As I say this, and noting what I said about Klay possibly being greater when all is said and done, boy, Draymond is a double edged sword. If the Warriors weren't so, so important historically that we have to ask "Who was most important to that generational accomplishment?", frankly, Green might already be traded and rotting away somewhere. I say this to acknowledge that there are cases to be made for multiple other players above him here.

The other guys I seriously though about:

Dwight Howard - frankly, he feels like the rational choice here. As y'all know, one of my quirks is that I really penalize guys who have something about them that ruins their best situation and keeps them from winning titles. It's certainly true that the Magic might have won the the title in '09 or '10, and I'd see him differently had that happened. But I also watched the way Dwight not having any clue about what he needed from teammates or what he needed to do on court to be valuable, destroyed Orlando and left him a negative impact on team after team after he forced his way out of Orlando. I look at Howard as a guy who was basically bound to self-destruct and bound to force whatever franchise drafted him into no-win situations.

Damian Lillard - A Portland icon. Absolutely seems destined for the Hall...but also not the best "of his type" in his generation and not close. Almost feels like you could explain him to your proverbial grandkid as "Oh, and there were other players who followed in Steph Curry's footsteps and had some great success, though not as much. There was even a guy in Portland who did this and was a great leader, and was a rapper and just really cool!...but no, his teams were never taken all that seriously."

Anthony Davis - Might be about to make the leap from B-list superstar with amazing talent to an absolute all-time great as the perfect co-star for LeBron. He's shown some amazing stuff this past year, but the reality is that he wouldn't make my 10 through '18-19, and if the Lakers were to disappoint in the playoffs, he'd still be lower than the guys I list above.

Other guys I thought about a little bit:

Kyle Korver - couldn't make a serious case for him against this competition, but a historically noteworthy, hyper-impactful, role player.

Andre Iguodala - I'm fine with him being in the Naismith Hall. No room in this class though.

Marc Gasol - a guy I expect to get into the Naismith Hall, but to be honest, never a top tier guy in the NBA, and being a Grizzlie icon helping them win some playoff series is not the same as being a Laker icon transforming the team into champions. (Yes, Marc won the chip with Toronto, and that helps some, but it's not the same.)

Blake Griffin - a guy we tend to forget about, but he's had an amazing career. From a super-dunker to a guy who could actually play something like point center, this guy has evolved incredibly effectively and you just feel like had he been in a different team context, we'd appreciate him more. Also, basically the human turning point for the Clippers. Before Griffin, if you were drafted high by the Clippers, we knew you were utterly doomed to be a loser. Griffin's Clippers didn't win titles, but they were good for a lot of years, and that winning culture undoubtedly helped the team segue to their current era.

[penbeast0]

In terms of sure things, I have LeBron, Curry, Durant, Paul, and Harden.

Giannis and Kawhi have short but high primes, Pau and Mark Gasol longer but less extreme peaks, Westbrook, Howard, and Green more ambiguous primes though certainly worth considering. Gobert has also been outstanding, more than Mark Gasol from what I've seen. And there are still Anthony Davis, Klay Thompson, and even Carmelo, Irving, or Lowry to consider. I'm a long way from being ready to vote.

OK, ready to do this.

LeBron
Curry
Durant
Paul
Harden

Dwight Howard
Russell Westbrook
Pau Gasol
These three guys have just done too much for me to leave off

My last two:
Giannis
Kawhi
Each have questions about the shortness of their prime but frankly, they are just the two guy left that have indelible impact. I keep trying to justify putting Draymond Green over these two but frankly, I just can't see it. Marc Gasol's impact I'm just not sold on, if I had to chose Mr. Grit and Grind it would be Tony Allen. Gobert hasn't got any more of a career arc than either of the two two-way guys. Both Giannis and Kawhi have excellent defensive impact as well as MVP candidate offensive impact.

So that's my ten. I will probably close this last one tomorrow night. I am leaving it open longer than the previous ones because there's no next one to apply pressure but I know Doc wants to do a projected impact idea and the season actually looks like it's getting ready to start again. So, if you want to weigh in, you have another 24-30 hours or so before I get around to counting the finals.

Thanks to all our stalwarts who have been there since the beginning. It's been great discussion, frequently of people we don't discuss regularly, and you've been the reasons why. I had fun and that's why we are here (for ME to have fun!).

[penbeast0]

Votes so far:

LeBron James (Ryoga Hibiki, Dutchball 97, Dr Positivity, Doctor MJ, penbeast0, trex_8063)
Kevin Durant (Ryoga Hibiki, Dutchball 97, Dr Positivity, Doctor MJ, penbeast0, trex_8063))
Steph Curry (Ryoga Hibiki, Dutchball 97, Dr Positivity, Doctor MJ, penbeast0, trex_8063))
Chris Paul (Ryoga Hibiki, Dutchball 97, Dr Positivity, Doctor MJ, penbeast0, trex_8063)

Pau Gasol (Ryoga Hibiki, Dutchball 97, Dr Positivity, Doctor MJ, penbeast0, trex_8063)
James Harden (Ryoga Hibiki, Dutchball 97, Dr Positivity, Doctor MJ, penbeast0, trex_8063)
Russell Westbrook (Ryoga Hibiki, Dutchball 97, Dr Positivity, Doctor MJ, penbeast0, trex_8063))
Kawhi Leonard (Ryoga Hibiki, Dutchball 97, Dr Positivity, Doctor MJ, penbeast0, trex_8063))


Giannis Antetokounmpo (Ryoga Hibiki, Dutchball 97, Dr Positivity, Doctor MJ, penbeast0)
Dwight Howard (Ryoga Hibiki, Dutchball 97, penbeast0, Dr Positivity. trex_8063)

Draymond Green (Doctor MJ)
LaMarcus Aldridge ()

[Dr Positivity]

Whoops, I forgot Dwight, you can replace Marc with him

[trex_8063]

Lebron James
Chris Paul
Kevin Durant
Stephen Curry
James Harden
Pau Gasol
Dwight Howard
Russell Westbrook
Kawhi Leonard
LaMarcus Aldridge

I could see switching that last one (to either Giannis or Marc; EDIT: of maybe Lowry).
But I think LMA's had an underrated career. He gets hammered here for *inefficient volume scoring, though that [again] is ONLY if looking at his offensive efficiency in terms of shooting efficiency ALONE [*and generally speaking he's not actually been "inefficient"; he's just not been "efficient" either].......but he's basically the top of the heap (all-time among big-men, at least of whom I've looked at) in turnover efficiency. His tendency to play outside is part of what makes that possible.

He spreads the floor in this manner as well, and has been [imo] a somewhat underrated defensive big. His box production can't be labelled "empty" given his impact metrics throughout most of his prime [particularly in Portland] posited him 16th in the league in '09, tied for 18th in '10, 21st in '11, tied for 31st in '12, tied for 15th (with Tim Duncan) in '13, 15th in '14, etc.

And this while averaging >36 mpg for EACH of those seasons and rarely missing time; has now played >1k games and nearly 35k minutes in not quite 14 seasons. He's basically been somewhere between borderline/fringe All-Star up to maybe All-NBA 2nd Team(ish) for perhaps as many as 11-12 seasons in his career, and really hasn't had ANY seasons wherein he was a clearly below average NBA player.

[BenoUdrihFTL]

LeBron
Steph
Durant
Harden
Kawhi
CP3
Pau Gasol
Westbrook
Dwight
Giannis

Kinda surprised I found it relatively easy to select the 10. Most of my deliberation was on the order I listed them, and I'm not even sure if I'm set on that as a final ordering (not that it matters)

[PistolPeteJR]

I'm going with

LeBron James
Kevin Durant
Steph Curry
Chris Paul
James Harden
Dwight Howard
Russell Westbrook
Kawhi Leonard
Pau Gasol
Giannis Antetokounmpo

HM: Damian Lillard, Anthony Davis, Paul George, Rajon Rondo, Derrick Rose

I’m echoing this exact top-10, though slot #10, Giannis, I’m not 100% sold on, and I could be convinced to sub him due to a very short career in comparison to some other candidates.

For instance, not to sound like a homer, but a guy like Lowry has been doing what he’s been doing for years (not a superstar), has a chip, and, for HOF niches, possesses a uniqueness that only a handful of guys have, which is winning the only chip as one of the main guys on a non-US team. Marc Gasol fits here too, and you can add on significant international play for him too, something Giannis lacks. FWIW, I’m not putting much weight into the aforementioned niche in my brainstorming, just bringing some ideas to light and engaging here.

As far as Dutchball’s HMs go, no way am I considering Rose. As it currently stands, I seriously think that there is a very good chance he ends up being the first MVP in history to not make the HOF.

[PistolPeteJR]

Also, I’d like to say that I have Iggy over guys like George, Rondo, AD, if things were to end today. I’m not sure if I could justify putting him at 10, but at worst he’d be at 11, and over guys like Marc and Lowry for me.

[penbeast0]

Just out of curiousity Pistol, did you realize that Giannis has played 3 more games in his career than Kawhi Leonard who you don't seem to worry about? And, he is an MVP and DPOY candidate in the same year; Kawhi's defense has suffered as his offense load improved. I voted for both but between the two, I go with Giannis.

[RCM88x]

Not sure if my vote can be counted if this is the only one I vote in, but regardless this would be my 10:

Lebron
Curry
KD
Paul
Harden
Westbrook

All the above are easy choices for me, some easier than others but I have a hard time coming up with arguments against including them.

Howard - dominant 3 year stretch, meh in the years after, short prime still makes him worthy, was having a good comeback year this season
Pau Gasol - catalyst on 3 finals teams and 2 title teams, arguably 1B on one of them, long successful career
Kawhi - 2x FMVP and top 5 player in the league for 4 of the last 5 seasons, elite playoff performer, questionable situation, unlikable to me personally, lacks longevity, but worthy due to his quality of play
Giannis - was on pace for maybe a top 10 or even top 5 season ever this year, has been elite for 3 seasons and probably the best two-way player since Tim Duncan in the early 00s. Lack of longevity hurts however, minimal playoff impact

Personally I dislike having to include Pau here as he's hasn't played in over a season, him saying he wants to comeback doesn't mean anything until he does imo. But if we are counting him as still active he deserves the spot.

I'd much rather have included him in the last class and filled his spot with Draymond honestly, who I feel fits the mold of this class and "active" player better. Regardless, those would be my picks.