Is Gafford better than Wendell?

Post #61 » by **kingkirk** » Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:29 pm

This thread is a precursor to what is to come for most of Wendell's career.

He's wildly underrated, or Gafford is overrated. Maybe both.

drosereturn · Post #62 » by **drosereturn** » Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:03 am

nitetrain8603 wrote:As far as trade value, it's Wendell the Shell. But, in terms of on court play, his value is down with the style of play we have played with along with taken injuries into account. I think most people would take Wendell if 100% healthy, but like him, I'm not sure if he's durable enough to play C, but yet that's where most of his value would come from.

If I'm the Bulls, I'd be looking to blow up the whole roster (even LaVine whom I love) if it allows the Bulls to acquire more assets, more talent and most importantly, better fits for AKs vision.

This. I dont look at whose really better on this roster. Its more of how does each player fit into AKs vision who wants to build the next Nuggets in this Bulls team. Lavine is a baller. White is a baller. But these guys arent good enough of a talent to overcome their versatility issue and being a one way player. Theres a reason why GS got rid of Monta Ellis although he was way better than Curry at the time.

We have 1 perfect fit in Lauri. Gafford is also a great fit for running plays. Carter I am not sure since he cannot shoot although he was touted as a two way player. Now AK will be trying to install his guys in this new roster instead of retaining all the relic of the pasts.
If hes ruthless, I can see him blowing up the entire roster and fill them with two way euro leaguers.
Ball, Deni, Hayes fit AK's motion offense very well.

Dez · Post #63 » by **Dez** » Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:51 pm

Showtime23 wrote:
nitetrain8603 wrote:As far as trade value, it's Wendell the Shell. But, in terms of on court play, his value is down with the style of play we have played with along with taken injuries into account. I think most people would take Wendell if 100% healthy, but like him, I'm not sure if he's durable enough to play C, but yet that's where most of his value would come from.

If I'm the Bulls, I'd be looking to blow up the whole roster (even LaVine whom I love) if it allows the Bulls to acquire more assets, more talent and most importantly, better fits for AKs vision.

This. I dont look at whose really better on this roster. Its more of how does each player fit into AKs vision who wants to build the next Nuggets in this Bulls team. Lavine is a baller. White is a baller. But these guys arent good enough of a talent to overcome their versatility issue and being a one way player. Theres a reason why GS got rid of Monta Ellis although he was way better than Curry at the time.

We have 1 perfect fit in Lauri. Gafford is also a great fit for running plays. Carter I am not sure since he cannot shoot although he was touted as a two way player. Now AK will be trying to install his guys in this new roster instead of retaining all the relic of the pasts.
If hes ruthless, I can see him blowing up the entire roster and fill them with two way euro leaguers.
Ball, Deni, Hayes fit AK's motion offense very well.

You keep touting "AK's vision" which you just assume is build the Nuggets in the east. You're entire premise is based on an assumption, you've (and we've) got no idea how AK is going to build this team. You're just using this to push your Lauri is amazing/LaVine sucks narrative.

We don't know the coach so I don't know how you're deciding what system/offense they'll run?

mtron32 · Post #64 » by **mtron32** » Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:27 am

I almost didn't pick because we haven't seen a full season for either guy but WCJ has shown defensive intelligence and definite offensive abilities withing 18 feet.

StunnerKO · Post #65 » by **StunnerKO** » Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:33 am

Watch on YouTube

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samwana · Post #66 » by **samwana** » Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:36 am

If Carter is healthy and gets coached up and teached to his strengths, he is a game changer imo. He needs someone else but Boylen as a coach though and that can't come soon enough.

OzmanTheWizard · Post #67 » by **OzmanTheWizard** » Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:17 pm

Nobody on this team is untouchable. Bulls should be listening to all trade offers on Carter.

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TeamMan · Post #68 » by **TeamMan** » Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:03 pm

StunnerKO wrote:

Watch on YouTube

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IMO this videos just confirms that WCJ could be an All Star PF.

Offensively he is much better when he gets a running start into the paint.

He also has a very good handle for 2-3 dribbles to make his defender move their feet.

Gafford on the other hand is very good in post-ups.

It's still my feeling that Lauri should be traded and WCJ should be moved to PF.

Post #69 » by **DASMACKDOWN** » Tue Jun 23, 2020 3:49 pm

A few things...

Wendell was far too heavy last year. I think alot of the problems for young bigs is that they feel they need to just bulk up to get strength. But this is the wrong approach with Wendell.

He is only 6'9. He's probably around 270. What he needs is to be is around 250 like with Bam Adebayo. The first few years with Bam he was bulking up rather then getting him trim and athletic. Bam was always pretty athletic but this year, his activity is to his advantage over his height. This past year was his best shape ever and it proved the right move to unleash him.

I also would say the offense didnt do Wendell any favors either. What I am hoping for is Wendell change his body and we run an offense that can maximize his strengths.

To the OP though, Wendell is clearly better than Gafford.

However Gafford's probably has more room to be significantly better than he is now. If Gafford were stronger and a Portis type rebounder, and Wendell stayed the same then the discussion would be more interesting. But right now Wendell is clearly better.

2018C3 · Post #70 » by **2018C3** » Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:21 pm

lol. Carter is not a game changer and never will be. He is just a guy who might one day fill a position better than average. A capable starter in rotation, nothing more.

He will never be a top two guy on championship team.

sco · Post #71 » by **sco** » Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:50 pm

I hated WCJ's noise about moving to PF, but I could be sympathetic if his logic was that he saw that he was worse playing heavier and wants to get quicker and lighter. Maybe someone in the Bulls org told him he needed to bulk-up to play C. It may be coincidence, but Lauri went through similar problems after he bulked-up. I think there may be someone (who was or) currently in the Bulls org, giving these guys bad advice.

nomorezorro · Post #72 » by **nomorezorro** » Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:27 am

i think how to handle wendell/gafford is a really interesting thing to talk about.

i see wendell as clearly the better prospect and likely the better player right now. but his high-end projected value is based on him being a legit defensive anchor and a solid offensive cog, a horford-level player at best and a derrick favors-level impact role player at worst. after two seasons, i think it's pretty reasonable to be skeptical about his chances of reaching either one of those levels.

now, those two seasons were not the best environment to judge a player. he dealt with injury stuff (which is debatably concerning in its own right). the coach was crap. and this is the point of tension for wendell: if you try to move on from him now, while he's still on a good contract and people could still see him as a great center prospect, what do you figure the odds are that you're selling high? i like wendell a lot, but i feel like i would kind of be surprised if we traded him and three years from now i found myself thinking "wow, we really messed up there."

part of that has to do with the value of centers. derrick favors is a really good center. at age 26, a team that already had a star center was able to sign him for 2 years/$36 million. at age 27, he was traded for two second-round picks. how likely is it that wendell ends up more valuable than that? (it's definitely very possible. i wanna be clear: there's a legit chance he does turn into that high-end horford-level version of himself. but is it more likely than not? is it even a 20% chance?)

gafford, meanwhile...it's easy to buy into him as a second-round heist. he fits what you think of when you think of a modern nba center - tall, athletic, focused on the stuff he's good at, potentially strong defender, good rim runner. ultimately kind of unremarkable? which is fine, it's just a center in 2020. how much do you really want to be investing that position anyway?

but like, beyond the obvious acknowledgement that it's nice to have a great player at any position — it would be crazy to go all-in on gafford as your center of the future based on a solid half-season of play. sometimes young energy bigs are good for a stretch and then they suddenly suck (shoutouts to jordan bell). people already pointed out gafford was weirdly trash at rebounding this year. he might suck! who knows!

on the other hand, if you go with gafford and you whiff on him, it's low stakes. oh dang, your second round center isn't that good anymore? whatever, find another warm body to plug in there who can do a capable job.

so again, i think the big question at the heart of all of this is: is wendell carter worth investing in, or would we be better off using resources elsewhere & filling the center position with gafford/whoever else might be available for the foreseeable future? and the answer to that is, i dunno

nomorezorro · Post #73 » by **nomorezorro** » Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:32 am

i keep coming back to stuff like...21-year-old jarrett allen seemingly proved he's a good center and ended the season as 31-year-old deandre jordan's backup. it's a weird position, man.

TeamMan · Post #74 » by **TeamMan** » Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:44 am

DASMACKDOWN wrote:A few things...

Wendell was far too heavy last year. I think alot of the problems for young bigs is that they feel they need to just bulk up to get strength. But this is the wrong approach with Wendell.

He is only 6'9. He's probably around 270. What he needs is to be is around 250 like with Bam Adebayo. The first few years with Bam he was bulking up rather then getting him trim and athletic. Bam was always pretty athletic but this year, his activity is to his advantage over his height. This past year was his best shape ever and it proved the right move to unleash him.

I also would say the offense didnt do Wendell any favors either. What I am hoping for is Wendell change his body and we run an offense that can maximize his strengths.

To the OP though, Wendell is clearly better than Gafford.

However Gafford's probably has more room to be significantly better than he is now. If Gafford were stronger and a Portis type rebounder, and Wendell stayed the same then the discussion would be more interesting. But right now Wendell is clearly better.

Discussed this in a previous post.

Maybe WCJ put on weight after he was measured again to meet the NBA requirements. But before that he was falsely listed at 6-10, 260 lbs.

So, an adjustment was made after he left college and his correct measurements given.

TeamMan wrote:When the NBA went to the "true measurements" this year, WCJ was measured at 6-9, 255 lb.

Size wise (NOT talent wise), that compares with Blake Griffin at 6-9, 250 lb.

But yes, he could probably lose more weight. (Don't know what his body fat is like.)

He was also a good shooter from 3P range in college.

But what I see from him are a lot of mid-range push shots to avoid getting his shot blocked by the centers that he's playing against. Can't judge how much that would change if he played PF because Boylen never tried it.

Hopefully the new FO and (also hopefully) the new head coach will have more imagination with the way that they use different lineups next season.

Dez · Post #75 » by **Dez** » Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:17 am

Wendell isn't a PF, he's a C.

P.C. · Post #76 » by **P.C.** » Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:05 am

This is a brutal question. I'd like to be able to say Wendell but I'm not sure he does anything at an NBA level, whereas Gafford is at least going to be decent at protecting the rim. Does that mean that Gafford is better? It might.

StunnerKO · Post #77 » by **StunnerKO** » Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:34 am

P.C. wrote:This is a brutal question. I'd like to be able to say Wendell but I'm not sure he does anything at an NBA level, whereas Gafford is at least going to be decent at protecting the rim. Does that mean that Gafford is better? It might.

Wendell plays defense at an NBA level and no Gafford isn’t better than him

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Andi Obst · Post #78 » by **Andi Obst** » Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:58 am

P.C. wrote:This is a brutal question. I'd like to be able to say Wendell but I'm not sure he does anything at an NBA level

This is just ridiculous. Wendell is a good rebounder, showed he can protect the rim before he was asked to constantly defend at the 3-point-line and is a solid defender. There are reasons to be disappointed with the results of his first 2 seasons, especially offensively, but some people really seem to hate the guy in a weird way.