OT: COVID-19 thread #2

[coldfish]

Imo this lands at the feet of the GOP. We have conditioned half our nation to think theres a conspiracy behind everything. The party represents anti science that has its roots in the climate change front. Its has an anti education bias that it has uses to rally uneducated people and tell them that their educated neighbors are liberal brainwashed elites that look down on them. They are anti govt, anti hollywood(aka anti anyone famous trying to use their position to advocate change, anti media, anti science pops its head up again with vaccines, fask masks, social distancing. its all at the feet of the GOP. They are sowing this distrust so that they can get people to deny anything that doesnt benefit big energy, wall street, or big bisiness.

In February / March the surgeon general, CDC and WHO were adamant that masks didn't work. They put a full on blitz trying to tell everyone that "there is no evidence" and "people touch their faces more".

This, scientifically, wasn't true. There was already overwhelming evidence out of Asia that masks reduced spread. Beyond that, its just common sense and basic biology.

Recently, Fauci was asked about this and he got angry. He basically said that they intentionally lied so that people wouldn't rush buy masks. Now, months later we are trying to do a 180 degree turn and demand that everyone wear masks.

At some point, scientists started giving up on science and picked up politics. In this case, and many others, they decided that it was OK to lie to the public as long as it was for a good cause. From masks to the hockey stick graph to carbs being good for you, they have **** up and every time they have chipped away at their own credibility.

If scientists want people to take science seriously, they should do it themselves first.

And this comes from a person with an engineering background who is very pro science. The answer frequently has to be "we don't know". Stop playing politics and people won't treat you like politicians. its easy to take shots at low educated, low income people from the Ozarks. When the Surgeon General is tweeting out this crap:

Read on Twitter

They deserve a billion times the fire.

[Dresden]

Imo this lands at the feet of the GOP. We have conditioned half our nation to think theres a conspiracy behind everything. The party represents anti science that has its roots in the climate change front. Its has an anti education bias that it has uses to rally uneducated people and tell them that their educated neighbors are liberal brainwashed elites that look down on them. They are anti govt, anti hollywood(aka anti anyone famous trying to use their position to advocate change, anti media, anti science pops its head up again with vaccines, fask masks, social distancing. its all at the feet of the GOP. They are sowing this distrust so that they can get people to deny anything that doesnt benefit big energy, wall street, or big bisiness.

In February / March the surgeon general, CDC and WHO were adamant that masks didn't work. They put a full on blitz trying to tell everyone that "there is no evidence" and "people touch their faces more".

This, scientifically, wasn't true. There was already overwhelming evidence out of Asia that masks reduced spread. Beyond that, its just common sense and basic biology.

Recently, Fauci was asked about this and he got angry. He basically said that they intentionally lied so that people wouldn't rush buy masks. Now, months later we are trying to do a 180 degree turn and demand that everyone wear masks.

At some point, scientists started giving up on science and picked up politics. In this case, and many others, they decided that it was OK to lie to the public as long as it was for a good cause. From masks to the hockey stick graph to carbs being good for you, they have **** up and every time they have chipped away at their own credibility.

If scientists want people to take science seriously, they should do it themselves first.

And this comes from a person with an engineering background who is very pro science. The answer frequently has to be "we don't know". Stop playing politics and people won't treat you like politicians. its easy to take shots at low educated, low income people from the Ozarks. When the Surgeon General is tweeting out this crap:

Read on Twitter

They deserve a billion times the fire.

But since then, they changed their minds when they realized they were wrong, WHICH THEY ARE ALLOWED TO DO, and people still refuse to wear masks. You can't tell me people are not wearing masks now because they are still relying on months old CDC recommendations. You keep trying to pin this one mistake on them to basically undermine everything they've ever done. If you aren't wearing a mask now, it's on you, and not the CDC, The WHO, or Dr. Fauci.

At the time, they also thought it was transmitted much more readily by touch, and that's why they said masks could be harmful because people would be touching their face more. Now they know this is a less likely means of transmission.

[wolffy]

Imo this lands at the feet of the GOP. We have conditioned half our nation to think theres a conspiracy behind everything. The party represents anti science that has its roots in the climate change front. Its has an anti education bias that it has uses to rally uneducated people and tell them that their educated neighbors are liberal brainwashed elites that look down on them. They are anti govt, anti hollywood(aka anti anyone famous trying to use their position to advocate change, anti media, anti science pops its head up again with vaccines, fask masks, social distancing. its all at the feet of the GOP. They are sowing this distrust so that they can get people to deny anything that doesnt benefit big energy, wall street, or big bisiness.

In February / March the surgeon general, CDC and WHO were adamant that masks didn't work. They put a full on blitz trying to tell everyone that "there is no evidence" and "people touch their faces more".

This, scientifically, wasn't true. There was already overwhelming evidence out of Asia that masks reduced spread. Beyond that, its just common sense and basic biology.

Recently, Fauci was asked about this and he got angry. He basically said that they intentionally lied so that people wouldn't rush buy masks. Now, months later we are trying to do a 180 degree turn and demand that everyone wear masks.



At some point, scientists started giving up on science and picked up politics. In this case, and many others, they decided that it was OK to lie to the public as long as it was for a good cause. From masks to the hockey stick graph to carbs being good for you, they have **** up and every time they have chipped away at their own credibility.

If scientists want people to take science seriously, they should do it themselves first.

And this comes from a person with an engineering background who is very pro science. The answer frequently has to be "we don't know". Stop playing politics and people won't treat you like politicians. its easy to take shots at low educated, low income people from the Ozarks. When the Surgeon General is tweeting out this crap:

Read on Twitter

They deserve a billion times the fire.

Theres truth in the fact that this administration hasnt handled this well and theres truth that fauci lied about masks. But SCIENCE didnt lie about masks, two administration officials lied about masks. Anyone who wanted info had it available. And again this admin bucked that and led its voters to not believe in established science and medicine concerning masks. When the worldwide medical community has a consensus on something its usually better to follow it. That doesn't mean their all gonna agree on butter or diet soda but that doesnt mean we should just turn our backs to them.

And on the masks it is debatable if telling the public to not buy the masks was a mistake or not.

[coldfish]

But since then, they changed their minds when they realized they were wrong, WHICH THEY ARE ALLOWED TO DO, and people still refuse to wear masks. You can't tell me people are not wearing masks now because they are still relying on months old CDC recommendations. You keep trying to pin this one mistake on them to basically undermine everything they've ever done. If you aren't wearing a mask now, it's on you, and not the CDC, The WHO, or Dr. Fauci.

At the time, they also thought it was transmitted much more readily by touch, and that's why they said masks could be harmful because people would be touching their face more. Now they know this is a less likely means of transmission.

As far as the masks, there was a ton of evidence that they were wrong at the time and they admitted that their reasoning was intended to be manipulation. You just can't do that and expect to not take a huge hit to your credibility.

If scientists want to be trusted, they have to be right. You can't just take a guess and release an educated hypothesis to the public. Even worse, you can't intentionally lie or mislead regardless of the end goal. The scientific method determines that hypotheses have to be tested. Just releasing educated guesses isn't science and doing so should get a ton of criticism from other scientists.

Scientists have done this enough that it has significantly eroded their credibility. If they want that credibility back, they need to look in the mirror.

And let's be blunt, a lot of the reason the US didn't take this seriously because scientists cried wolf on H1N1. If you dig into it there, it was a huge butcher job. They didn't bother to check fatality rate before giving out a ton of public warnings. Not sure if you were around for it but the 1976 swine flu fiasco left a massive mark on the public consciousness. I lost a relative to that vaccine and I know other people that refused to ever get another vaccine due to what that did to them.

I just can't overstate this, our scientific community has to be held to a higher standard if they want the respect they think is owed to them.

[coldfish]

Theres truth in the fact that this administration hasnt handled this well and theres truth that fauci lied about masks. But SCIENCE didnt lie about masks, two administration officials lied about masks. Anyone who wanted info had it available. And again this admin bucked that and led its voters to not believe in established science and medicine concerning masks. When the worldwide medical community has a consensus on something its usually better to follow it. That doesn't mean their all gonna agree on butter or diet soda but that doesnt mean we should just turn our backs to them.

And on the masks it is debatable if telling the public to not buy the masks was a mistake or not.

The Trump administration has handled this so poorly its going to be studied for hundreds of years. This was a once a millennium type event. We are living through history. Donald Trump might end up being the worst president in US history.

Regardless, the WHO also recommended against masks. Its not just two people in the Trump administration. There were many others.

On an operational level, the US medical community has responded wonderfully. No one is talking about it but we are probably going to have the lowest infection fatality rate in the world due to the hard work, systems and intelligence of our doctors and nurses. They should all take a bow. Quite frankly, the US medical system is doing a flex pose right now but no one is noticing. Comparing the US medical system to europe's right now is like Scottie dunking over Ewing. This is ugly. The NHS in particular pooped themselves.

On a strategic level, this has been abject failure. From PPE to disease analysis to masks to you name it, the people at the highest levels are absolute butchers. "But what about Trump" needs to be tempered. Trump will be gone in a few months but a system that has screwed up time and time again going back decades is still going to be in place. We probably want to do something about it.

[Dresden]

But since then, they changed their minds when they realized they were wrong, WHICH THEY ARE ALLOWED TO DO, and people still refuse to wear masks. You can't tell me people are not wearing masks now because they are still relying on months old CDC recommendations. You keep trying to pin this one mistake on them to basically undermine everything they've ever done. If you aren't wearing a mask now, it's on you, and not the CDC, The WHO, or Dr. Fauci.

At the time, they also thought it was transmitted much more readily by touch, and that's why they said masks could be harmful because people would be touching their face more. Now they know this is a less likely means of transmission.

As far as the masks, there was a ton of evidence that they were wrong at the time and they admitted that their reasoning was intended to be manipulation. You just can't do that and expect to not take a huge hit to your credibility.

If scientists want to be trusted, they have to be right. You can't just take a guess and release an educated hypothesis to the public. Even worse, you can't intentionally lie or mislead regardless of the end goal. The scientific method determines that hypotheses have to be tested. Just releasing educated guesses isn't science and doing so should get a ton of criticism from other scientists.

Scientists have done this enough that it has significantly eroded their credibility. If they want that credibility back, they need to look in the mirror.

And let's be blunt, a lot of the reason the US didn't take this seriously because scientists cried wolf on H1N1. If you dig into it there, it was a huge butcher job. They didn't bother to check fatality rate before giving out a ton of public warnings. Not sure if you were around for it but the 1976 swine flu fiasco left a massive mark on the public consciousness. I lost a relative to that vaccine and I know other people that refused to ever get another vaccine due to what that did to them.

I just can't overstate this, our scientific community has to be held to a higher standard if they want the respect they think is owed to them.

Rubbish. You're just twisting their words into the worst possible light.

[coldfish]

But since then, they changed their minds when they realized they were wrong, WHICH THEY ARE ALLOWED TO DO, and people still refuse to wear masks. You can't tell me people are not wearing masks now because they are still relying on months old CDC recommendations. You keep trying to pin this one mistake on them to basically undermine everything they've ever done. If you aren't wearing a mask now, it's on you, and not the CDC, The WHO, or Dr. Fauci.

At the time, they also thought it was transmitted much more readily by touch, and that's why they said masks could be harmful because people would be touching their face more. Now they know this is a less likely means of transmission.

As far as the masks, there was a ton of evidence that they were wrong at the time and they admitted that their reasoning was intended to be manipulation. You just can't do that and expect to not take a huge hit to your credibility.

If scientists want to be trusted, they have to be right. You can't just take a guess and release an educated hypothesis to the public. Even worse, you can't intentionally lie or mislead regardless of the end goal. The scientific method determines that hypotheses have to be tested. Just releasing educated guesses isn't science and doing so should get a ton of criticism from other scientists.

Scientists have done this enough that it has significantly eroded their credibility. If they want that credibility back, they need to look in the mirror.

And let's be blunt, a lot of the reason the US didn't take this seriously because scientists cried wolf on H1N1. If you dig into it there, it was a huge butcher job. They didn't bother to check fatality rate before giving out a ton of public warnings. Not sure if you were around for it but the 1976 swine flu fiasco left a massive mark on the public consciousness. I lost a relative to that vaccine and I know other people that refused to ever get another vaccine due to what that did to them.

I just can't overstate this, our scientific community has to be held to a higher standard if they want the respect they think is owed to them.

Rubbish. You're just twisting their words into the worst possible light.

You are simply wrong. You are just looking at everything though a political lens and that's blinding you to a lot of the errors that have been made.

[DuckIII]

I blame the current administration for the woefully slow start our country had in response to the Covid-19 pandemic. I don't blame them so much for the Covid situation we face right now. They haven't helped and they haven't provided a good outward example, but advice on the right behaviors is readily available and at some point, we have to expect that individuals will do what's right. I blame each person who willfully ignores the best medical advice for whatever stupid reason they may have to do so.

Sorry, Transplant, but no. The White House and conservative Governors all around America have been aggressively and actively undermining the medical and scientific community, applauding and encouraging “civil disobedience” and decrying governors taking a more conservative science based approach as anti-American and weak.

Given my line of work, I’ve been following the lawsuit side of this, and disgracefully Trump’s DOJ has been backing litigation seeking to overturn stay at home orders and slower reopening models in numerous states. Including Illinois (check out the history of Darren Bailey’s lawsuit against Pritzker, in which the DOJ intervened as soon as the AG removed to federal court to get away from the moronic Judge in Clay County who used the lawsuit as a campaign platform).

Yes, personal responsibility is where the buck stops. But GOP leadership has been grotesquely active in destroying the health of Americans for political gain. There is blood all over their hands. They don’t get a pass just because people are technically capable of ignoring them.

[dice]

But since then, they changed their minds when they realized they were wrong, WHICH THEY ARE ALLOWED TO DO, and people still refuse to wear masks. You can't tell me people are not wearing masks now because they are still relying on months old CDC recommendations. You keep trying to pin this one mistake on them to basically undermine everything they've ever done. If you aren't wearing a mask now, it's on you, and not the CDC, The WHO, or Dr. Fauci.

At the time, they also thought it was transmitted much more readily by touch, and that's why they said masks could be harmful because people would be touching their face more. Now they know this is a less likely means of transmission.

As far as the masks, there was a ton of evidence that they were wrong at the time and they admitted that their reasoning was intended to be manipulation. You just can't do that and expect to not take a huge hit to your credibility.

If scientists want to be trusted, they have to be right. You can't just take a guess and release an educated hypothesis to the public. Even worse, you can't intentionally lie or mislead regardless of the end goal. The scientific method determines that hypotheses have to be tested. Just releasing educated guesses isn't science and doing so should get a ton of criticism from other scientists.

Scientists have done this enough that it has significantly eroded their credibility. If they want that credibility back, they need to look in the mirror.

And let's be blunt, a lot of the reason the US didn't take this seriously because scientists cried wolf on H1N1. If you dig into it there, it was a huge butcher job. They didn't bother to check fatality rate before giving out a ton of public warnings. Not sure if you were around for it but the 1976 swine flu fiasco left a massive mark on the public consciousness. I lost a relative to that vaccine and I know other people that refused to ever get another vaccine due to what that did to them.

I just can't overstate this, our scientific community has to be held to a higher standard if they want the respect they think is owed to them.

agree with almost all of this...except that the public didn't pay a lick of mind to H1N1. because they don't pay attention to anything that's not in their neighborhood. hell, all i remember about H1N1 is the name. it's hard for me to imagine that any significant number of people are using that as an excuse to take COVID-19 lightly. hell, if that were the case there would be a ton of right wing noise about it ("you said that H1N1 was gonna be the end of the world too, so **** off! freedom!"). certainly when the numbers started to ramp up around the world there was no harkening back to H1N1

[Jimako10]

I can tell you back in March there weren't enough masks to go around for healthcare workers. That's an undeniable fact. Everyone was afraid to come into work, and hospitals were scrambling trying to find ways to bring in as much PPE anywhere they can find them. At one point, my hospital limited masks to nurses and docs taking care of covid patients while every other department was freaking the hell out about not being able to get one. That's how bad it was in the beginning.

Maybe Fauci and the WHO were wrong to mislead the public about masks. It seems to me they made a decision that healthcare workers needed them more than the public early on. Whether that was the right or wrong choice is difficult to say. Maybe if the administration had acted early and enacted the defense production act as soon as possible, they wouldn't have had to mislead the public about masks.

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM mobile app

[dice]

Theres truth in the fact that this administration hasnt handled this well and theres truth that fauci lied about masks. But SCIENCE didnt lie about masks, two administration officials lied about masks. Anyone who wanted info had it available. And again this admin bucked that and led its voters to not believe in established science and medicine concerning masks. When the worldwide medical community has a consensus on something its usually better to follow it. That doesn't mean their all gonna agree on butter or diet soda but that doesnt mean we should just turn our backs to them.

And on the masks it is debatable if telling the public to not buy the masks was a mistake or not.

The Trump administration has handled this so poorly its going to be studied for hundreds of years. This was a once a millennium type event. We are living through history. Donald Trump might end up being the worst president in US history.

i think it's gonna take a 2nd term for that to happen. at this point i'm not even sure he tops dubya for damage done. but we still have at least a few more months for agent orange to add to his resume!

worst 3 presidents in history according to compiled historical rankings:

1) buchanan
2) johnson (botched reconstruction after lincoln's death, contributing to problems that remain to this day and quite possibly facilitating trump)
3) harding

Regardless, the WHO also recommended against masks. Its not just two people in the Trump administration. There were many others.

yes. and while i would consider the possibility that lying might have been the best course of action in a vacuum, the lost credibility in the long-run makes it hard to justify

On an operational level, the US medical community has responded wonderfully. No one is talking about it but we are probably going to have the lowest infection fatality rate in the world due to the hard work, systems and intelligence of our doctors and nurses.

the fatality rate would be even lower if we had been testing to the degree that we should

[coldfish]

On an operational level, the US medical community has responded wonderfully. No one is talking about it but we are probably going to have the lowest infection fatality rate in the world due to the hard work, systems and intelligence of our doctors and nurses.

the fatality rate would be even lower if we had been testing to the degree that we should

In the terms that I meant it, fatality rate = fatalities / true infections. For the number of infections they have dealt with, our medical system has performed admirably.

The fatality count would have been much lower had we handled this better from a strategic perspective.

[2018C3]

Honestly, If anyone took offense to my earlier comments, I apologize. Its just my opinion, and I believe they are true. I respect all your opinions, and expect the same in return.

I believe in the system that is in place, and if the common national consensuses dis-agrees with me, I will go with the flow in where this country is heading. I still believe the people in this country have the power to influence change, and some change is obviously needed.

I might have a difficult time accepting some of that change, but I won't cry about it.

I'm also very strongly on anti drug legalization. But you guys on the other side already won the Marijuana subject in this state, I'm not crying about it, I just think its a bad idea, and rarely ever bring it up. I realize my views on this subject are in the minority, and accept it.

In the USA, we are supposed to take into consideration other peoples view points, discuss them in court, and then find a solution that represents the American people. This ideal seems to have been lost recently.

I said this before. The two party system we have in place is terrible, and the associated media actively works to divide all of us even further.

[Dresden]

From a conversation between the Surgeon General and Brian Kilmeade, March 31st:

Brian, you and I have talked about this a lot. It’s important to understand that we are looking at the data every single day, that we make the best recommendations to the American people we can based on what we know. What the World Health Organization (WHO) and the CDC (Centers for Disease Control) have reaffirmed in the last few days is that they do not recommend the general public wear masks.

Here’s why: on an individual level, there was a study in 2015 looking at medical students, and medical students wearing surgical masks touched their face on average 23 times. We know a major way that you can get respiratory diseases like coronavirus is by touching a surface and then touching your face. So wearing a mask improperly can actually increase your chances of getting a disease. It can also give you a false sense of security; if you’ve seen many of these pictures of people out and about closer than six feet to each other but still wearing a mask.

Adams continued, “On a population level, it’s important for people to know that we tell sick people to wear masks so that you don’t transmit disease to others, but again, if that encourages people to get together too close, then you may mitigate the effect or cancel out the effect of people wearing masks. And then finally there’s consequences, and we still have PPE shortages across the country; the WHO mentioned this in their statement. So we want to make sure we are reserving PPE for the people who most need it. That’s how you’re going to get the largest effect, because if health care workers get sick, they can’t take care of you if you get sick … The data doesn’t show that it helps individuals. Here’s the bottom line: if you’re sick, wear a mask.”

Kilmeade pointed out, “We know in China they walk around with them,” to which Adams responded, “Yes. And they have a culture there of wearing masks and everyone already has one and they’re more accustomed to wearing them without touching their faces.” He added, “If you’re sick, wear a mask. If you have a mask and it makes you feel better, then by all means wear it. But know that the more you touch your face the more you put yourself at risk. And know that right now the data isn’t quite there to say that there’s a net benefit to the individual of wearing a mask.”

Kilmeade asked if Adams foresaw a time when the general public would wear N-95 masks.

Adams answered, “Certainly not the N-95s because the N-95 you have to get fit-tested. And as a medical professional, I can’t just go out and wear an N-95; I have to make sure it’s properly fitted and I have the right size in order for it to work properly. There may be a day when we change our recommendations, particularly for areas that have large spread going on, about wearing cotton masks, but again, the data’s not there yet. We’re continuing to follow it; CDC’s looking at it and we’ll put out new recommendations if the guidance warrants, but WHO and CDC right now say that’s not what they recommend.”


https://www.dailywire.com/news/u-s-surgeon-general-heres-why-cdc-and-who-recommend-healthy-people-do-not-wear-masks

By the way, there was no "overwhelmingly evidence from Asia" about the effectiveness of wearing masks at this time.

[dice]

On an operational level, the US medical community has responded wonderfully. No one is talking about it but we are probably going to have the lowest infection fatality rate in the world due to the hard work, systems and intelligence of our doctors and nurses.

the fatality rate would be even lower if we had been testing to the degree that we should

In the terms that I meant it, fatality rate = fatalities / true infections. For the number of infections they have dealt with, our medical system has performed admirably.

The fatality count would have been much lower had we handled this better from a strategic perspective.

what constitutes a "true infection"?

[2018C3]

Corona virus I believe is a true infection, I'm not against precautions and think masks are a good idea.

Several months back I told my parents to stay in, and also basically forced them to cancel a European vacation they had planned (the decision was still there theirs, but I helped influence them into making the correct choice. I told them to stay home, and if they needed anything to send me out to get it, Even with the recent government let ups I told them to stay home. They are also very religious, and I constantly tell them even if the church allows services they should stay home.

I do however think this is a risk people should take as a responsibility for themselves. I have friends who work in the food industry, and worked throughout this whole ordeal.

[dice]

ouch:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/there-isnt-a-coronavirus-second-wave-11592327890

[PlayerUp]

ouch:

Brazil and India are not on these charts.

You can't feel pity for alot of these people being infected. If you're wearing a proper mask and taking all the necessary precautions, you shouldn't have much to be concerned about.

[PlayerUp]

I said this before. The two party system we have in place is terrible, and the associated media actively works to divide all of us even further.

Things are changing gradually though. Look at how strong the socialist / green party is and the libertian party also strong. Maybe in our lifetime things will change. A 4 party system would do wonders for this country. That said, you can also downsize the federal government and leave it up to the states to decide more issues.

[DuckIII]

Honestly, If anyone took offense to my earlier comments, I apologize. Its just my opinion, and I believe they are true. I respect all your opinions, and expect the same in return.

I believe in the system that is in place, and if the common national consensuses dis-agrees with me, I will go with the flow in where this country is heading. I still believe the people in this country have the power to influence change, and some change is obviously needed.

I might have a difficult time accepting some of that change, but I won't cry about it.

I'm also very strongly on anti drug legalization. But you guys on the other side already won the Marijuana subject in this state, I'm not crying about it, I just think its a bad idea, and rarely ever bring it up. I realize my views on this subject are in the minority, and accept it.

In the USA, we are supposed to take into consideration other peoples view points, discuss them in court, and then find a solution that represents the American people. This ideal seems to have been lost recently.

I said this before. The two party system we have in place is terrible, and the associated media actively works to divide all of us even further.

I appreciate a lot of this, but you said Democrats ultimately want to keep minorities down despite the fact that liberals have spent the last 60 years (and longer) overtly fighting for equal opportunity and equal protection under the law while conservatives have done the exact opposite and waged a multi- front war against equality. Just last week Trump was fighting against LGBTQ receiving employment equality protections under a 56 year old law. It’s 2020, man, and it’s STILL happening. So it’s a falsehood. It’s not entitled to respect.

You seem like an okay guy. But not all belief is due respect. We can and should be civil about it though, if that is what you meant.