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OT: COVID-19 thread #3

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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #3 

Post#121 » by PlayerUp » Sat Jul 4, 2020 2:29 pm

MrSparkle wrote:The ultimate irony, seeing as a majority of wealthy 2nd+ generation white men got their head-start with their ancestors’ capitalizing on slavery and claiming free lands for their own.

Aaand it’s all happening again. Right now we’re seeing record amounts of Wall St stimulus. For what? Many of these companies pumped into buybacks with no accountability.


I agree with all of this.

There are a certain % of millionaires and billionaires which are a plague to our economy. There are the good wealthy individuals like Jeff Bezos who produce hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of jobs. Then there are others who don't need to do anything but check how much money their investments made who are in it for themselves piling up endless cash, never giving back and often living a private life out of the spotlight. Then you have the greedy companies who are in it for max profit and barely give back.

There is major corruption in America but most are blind with is truly going on.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #3 

Post#122 » by MrSparkle » Sat Jul 4, 2020 2:32 pm

PlayerUp wrote:
musiqsoulchild wrote:Tbh, we have to act like we are the greatest country in the world.

That is all.

Now imagine if we put that kind of missionary zeal towards:

1) Making our Education system the best in the world
2) Making our Healthcare accessible to all - no ifs and buts
3) Making our infrastructure the best in the world


We're great but it's not possible to be the greatest at everything.

You can't fix these problems overnight. Any major improvements costs us extreme amounts of money to do so which we can't really afford because of the amount of money we're currently borrowing. We have to take small steps at a time. You also need a congress that is proactive at combating all these issues which we currently don't have.


Sorry boss, but the corporate bailouts of this year and 2008 prove that the US government and Fed can “dream the impossible” with money. A humanistic bare bones safety net for your own citizens in the richest country of the world can certainly be afforded, borrowed and paid more responsibly than THAT.

For one thing, just think how much Tax money is wasted on shady local and federal government job pensions and union contracts and deals.

Here’s the big kicker with universal health - it would knock billions out of the gov. health insurance budgets. USPS’ budget crisis turned out to be partially due to their absurdly expensive health plans, for example, and that’s just USPS. Go through the city by city pensions and health plans and the numbers are staggering.

So simple in the long-term to simply upgrade social security and universal health care. We literally have a Stalinistic system where gov. workers have the most lopsided retirement plans in the country short of billionaire hedge fund managers.

Proactive Congress is another story.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #3 

Post#123 » by MrSparkle » Sat Jul 4, 2020 2:42 pm

PlayerUp wrote:
MrSparkle wrote:The ultimate irony, seeing as a majority of wealthy 2nd+ generation white men got their head-start with their ancestors’ capitalizing on slavery and claiming free lands for their own.

Aaand it’s all happening again. Right now we’re seeing record amounts of Wall St stimulus. For what? Many of these companies pumped into buybacks with no accountability.


I agree with all of this.

There are a certain % of millionaires and billionaires which are a plague to our economy. There are the good wealthy individuals like Jeff Bezos who produce hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of jobs. Then there are others who don't need to do anything but check how much money their investments made who are in it for themselves piling up endless cash, never giving back and often living a private life out of the spotlight. Then you have the greedy companies who are in it for max profit and barely give back.

There is major corruption in America but most are blind with is truly going on.


Ha well I don’t condone Bezos. He has lost his humanity in his monopolistic growth. I think there needs to be a cap. Tech makes it to easy to dominate the market. I think Google and Amazon are great, powerful and convenient but ultimately very destructive.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #3 

Post#124 » by PlayerUp » Sat Jul 4, 2020 2:43 pm

the ultimates wrote:You can afford some of it and borrow less money by appropriately taxing corporations and rolling back the tax cuts to 1% that were given out by Bush and Trump.


Only a small % though.

MrSparkle wrote:Ha well I don’t condone Bezos. He has lost his humanity in his monopolistic growth. I think there needs to be a cap. Tech makes it to easy to dominate the market. I think Google and Amazon are great, powerful and convenient but ultimately very destructive.


Getting rid of the loopholes should be a higher priority - https://www.accounting-degree.org/accounting-tricks/ and https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/economy/reports/2018/07/25/453981/11-ways-wealthy-corporations-will-game-new-tax-law/.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #3 

Post#125 » by musiqsoulchild » Sat Jul 4, 2020 2:47 pm

PlayerUp wrote:
musiqsoulchild wrote:Tbh, we have to act like we are the greatest country in the world.

That is all.

Now imagine if we put that kind of missionary zeal towards:

1) Making our Education system the best in the world
2) Making our Healthcare accessible to all - no ifs and buts
3) Making our infrastructure the best in the world


We're great but it's not possible to be the greatest at everything.

You can't fix these problems overnight. Any major improvements costs us extreme amounts of money to do so which we can't really afford because of the amount of money we're currently borrowing. We have to take small steps at a time. You also need a congress that is proactive at combating all these issues which we currently don't have.


I want to be healthy.

I want to feel like I dont need to be in a job where I am being sexually or racially discriminated against just because I have medical insurance through that job.

I dont need 19 Aircraft Carriers.
I dont need to worry about inflation.

I worry about my health. And my mental health and emotional health as I worry about my physical health.

I am almost 100 Million underinsured Americans. Most of us are healthy. We can take care of our health. We just need to feel the safety net.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #3 

Post#126 » by PlayerUp » Sat Jul 4, 2020 2:53 pm

MrSparkle wrote:Ha well I don’t condone Bezos. He has lost his humanity in his monopolistic growth. I think there needs to be a cap. Tech makes it to easy to dominate the market. I think Google and Amazon are great, powerful and convenient but ultimately very destructive.


I agree. Just hard to also hate on Google and Amazon because of all of the positive things they do to help the world. Sometimes you have to just give into those who are also greatly benefiting society. The problem is the bulk of these millionaires and billionaires aren't and a good % of them are negatively impacting our economy.

Regardless all this talk is meaningless unless we have a proactive and creative white house and congress willing to negotiate and move America forward.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #3 

Post#127 » by Dresden » Sat Jul 4, 2020 4:11 pm

musiqsoulchild wrote:
PlayerUp wrote:
dice wrote:minorities are both more likely to have underlying health conditions and less likely to have access to quality health care...because america has a terrible health care system...because of conservative politicians


What are the best ways to improve the healthcare system with little to no tax increases to pay for it/little to no higher rates for the middle class/raising the deficit?


Tbh, we have to act like we are the greatest country in the world.

That is all.

Yday evening, our President stood in front of Mt.Rushmore and focussed entirely on how GREAT our country is and that it is the BEST country in the world in all of history.

And then he went on to talk exclusively about punishing people who harm statues. Specially mandated Federal policing units, new laws, DHS involvement, drone surveillance of protesters.

All for statues.

Now imagine if we put that kind of missionary zeal towards:

1) Making our Education system the best in the world
2) Making our Healthcare accessible to all - no ifs and buts
3) Making our infrastructure the best in the world

This is a question of political will. Of every damn living soul that is in Congress, Senate and the White House.

We are the richest, most abundantly resourced country in the world.

But we suck at taking care of our own.

Do you know why? Because deep down, we dont really care about the "losers". And unless we fix that moral issue on a personal level...we will not be able to elect people who will get the job done.


I think what you say about not caring about "losers" may be true on a broad level, but it's not true on an individual level. In general, people are pretty caring and generous towards people they know- even those of a different color or religion. But our politicians lead us to demonizing groups, like Trump does when he calls Latinos murderers and rapists. Or when pols blame a loss of jobs on immigrants. Or make claims about blacks abusing welfare.

We have far too many toxic politicians, and unfortunately that is something that has been present throughout our history as a country. And now we have mass media and the internet to amplify those voices. That's one reason why, if nothing else, the Democratic Party offers a more promising future- they at least try to focus on inclusion and tolerance, not division and hatred.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #3 

Post#128 » by Dresden » Sat Jul 4, 2020 4:24 pm

MrSparkle wrote:
PlayerUp wrote:
musiqsoulchild wrote:Tbh, we have to act like we are the greatest country in the world.

That is all.

Now imagine if we put that kind of missionary zeal towards:

1) Making our Education system the best in the world
2) Making our Healthcare accessible to all - no ifs and buts
3) Making our infrastructure the best in the world


We're great but it's not possible to be the greatest at everything.

You can't fix these problems overnight. Any major improvements costs us extreme amounts of money to do so which we can't really afford because of the amount of money we're currently borrowing. We have to take small steps at a time. You also need a congress that is proactive at combating all these issues which we currently don't have.


Sorry boss, but the corporate bailouts of this year and 2008 prove that the US government and Fed can “dream the impossible” with money. A humanistic bare bones safety net for your own citizens in the richest country of the world can certainly be afforded, borrowed and paid more responsibly than THAT.

For one thing, just think how much Tax money is wasted on shady local and federal government job pensions and union contracts and deals.

Here’s the big kicker with universal health - it would knock billions out of the gov. health insurance budgets. USPS’ budget crisis turned out to be partially due to their absurdly expensive health plans, for example, and that’s just USPS. Go through the city by city pensions and health plans and the numbers are staggering.

So simple in the long-term to simply upgrade social security and universal health care. We literally have a Stalinistic system where gov. workers have the most lopsided retirement plans in the country short of billionaire hedge fund managers.

Proactive Congress is another story.


We could easily have afforded a lot of those things if we had a more equitable income distribution in this country. if you look at how much the wealth and income of the top 5%, top 1%, top .1% have risen in the past 30 years, compared to that of everyone else, it's astounding. If instead of having a system where most of the proceeds of the economy are going to those that already have enough, it was directed to those at the bottom and middle who are struggling, we'd have a much better society overall.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #3 

Post#129 » by coldfish » Sat Jul 4, 2020 4:53 pm

The US medical system has done a fantastic job with covid so far. They have identified treatment methodologies and quickly distributed them nationally. As we are learning, ventilators are a bad idea. Giving people oxygen in other ways has drastically reduced fatality rates. Our doctors and nurses deserve an incredible amount of respect.

This is an unfortunate truth though. The US is certainly undercounting deaths but its by 20%. The numbers in europe are far higher though with estimates as high as 50%. Some of the stories out of Italy, Spain and the UK are abhorrent. If the US had the same case fatality ratio that the UK has, there would be 320,000 more dead americans.

Some of the nationalized health care systems have done well (Germany, Canada) but many have done just a terrible job. The US is going to have the lowest infection fatality rate in the world by a good bit.

Its sickening just how many infections we have had and I blame that squarely on Trump. As I have said before, his performance (or lack thereof) on this is going to be studied for centuries. That said, let's not hold up a lot of these other countries as wonderful examples of competence. Just because the news isn't running stories on just how bad the NHS did here doesn't mean it didn't happen.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #3 

Post#130 » by PlayerUp » Sat Jul 4, 2020 5:03 pm

Dresden wrote:like Trump does when he calls Latinos murderers and rapists.


When did he say this?
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #3 

Post#131 » by MrSparkle » Sat Jul 4, 2020 6:23 pm

coldfish wrote:The US medical system has done a fantastic job with covid so far. They have identified treatment methodologies and quickly distributed them nationally. As we are learning, ventilators are a bad idea. Giving people oxygen in other ways has drastically reduced fatality rates. Our doctors and nurses deserve an incredible amount of respect.

This is an unfortunate truth though. The US is certainly undercounting deaths but its by 20%. The numbers in europe are far higher though with estimates as high as 50%. Some of the stories out of Italy, Spain and the UK are abhorrent. If the US had the same case fatality ratio that the UK has, there would be 320,000 more dead americans.

Some of the nationalized health care systems have done well (Germany, Canada) but many have done just a terrible job. The US is going to have the lowest infection fatality rate in the world by a good bit.

Its sickening just how many infections we have had and I blame that squarely on Trump. As I have said before, his performance (or lack thereof) on this is going to be studied for centuries. That said, let's not hold up a lot of these other countries as wonderful examples of competence. Just because the news isn't running stories on just how bad the NHS did here doesn't mean it didn't happen.


America has been a global science, tech and medical leader since the late 1800s. Has nothing to do with the health insurance system. Of course we have great doctors and nurses and facilities. We also have Silicon Valley.

It’s the inefficient insurance system that has jeopardized it and ballooned out of control the last 40 years.

We have the best universities in the world. They have also gotten completely out of control as far as cost goes. College loans and expenses have ballooned beyond ration in the last 30 years, so the dire effects of these two important industries which were in balance for most of the 20th century, they will damage the current generations into the rest of the century in ways we can’t even process. Instead of retirement funds and savings, these debt collection agencies are going to blow up with a Gen XYZ crisis while Social Security balloons and falls apart.

It’s a shame really that the American Gov. stopped playing chess and decided to allow loan sharks to pig out on the Citizens’ savings.

If you think about the “circle of money”, it would be in America’s best interest and longevity to have a stable housing market with as many people having dispensable retirement savings, be able to pay off reasonable college loans (not 250k + interest when the job market averages 40-60k), and not have to worry about $10k a year Minimum going towards health care costs by the time you hit 30, with a rapidly ascending rate by the time you hit 40.

Meanwhile, it seems we are content with entering a high and low volatility with huge stock market swings and crashes every 10 years it seems. Even if covid never happened, the Bull market was going to pop like every other insane financial bubble in Wall St and real estate history.

So middle class middle/upper age families and individuals keep getting their volatile savings wiped. Then you bail out the lenders, banks and corporations that got us there, they raise rates to re-vitalize their broken profits, and reset the cycle.

Then they blame people for making bad life choices. Oh, I didn’t know that there were 2 job sectors the entire country should feel comfortable pursuing - medical and computer/software. Unless you’re already rich, then business school is fantastic because you can use dad’s connections and start-up money to make “brilliant” investment decisions with advisors. And why not pursue a career in politics? You just need a ton of money to hit the campaign trail.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #3 

Post#132 » by Dresden » Sat Jul 4, 2020 7:11 pm

PlayerUp wrote:
Dresden wrote:like Trump does when he calls Latinos murderers and rapists.


When did he say this?


When he was talking about Mexico 'not sending us it's best people".
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #3 

Post#133 » by Dresden » Sat Jul 4, 2020 7:14 pm

coldfish wrote:The US medical system has done a fantastic job with covid so far. They have identified treatment methodologies and quickly distributed them nationally. As we are learning, ventilators are a bad idea. Giving people oxygen in other ways has drastically reduced fatality rates. Our doctors and nurses deserve an incredible amount of respect.

This is an unfortunate truth though. The US is certainly undercounting deaths but its by 20%. The numbers in europe are far higher though with estimates as high as 50%. Some of the stories out of Italy, Spain and the UK are abhorrent. If the US had the same case fatality ratio that the UK has, there would be 320,000 more dead americans.

Some of the nationalized health care systems have done well (Germany, Canada) but many have done just a terrible job. The US is going to have the lowest infection fatality rate in the world by a good bit.

Its sickening just how many infections we have had and I blame that squarely on Trump. As I have said before, his performance (or lack thereof) on this is going to be studied for centuries. That said, let's not hold up a lot of these other countries as wonderful examples of competence. Just because the news isn't running stories on just how bad the NHS did here doesn't mean it didn't happen.


I think medical information is shared internationally pretty easily these days, so I wouldn't say it's the US medical system that has come with all of these new treatments. My sister is a doctor, and she's constantly reading message boards from doctors across the globe about what is working, what isn't. I haven't seen any articles written that the NHS is to blame for the high mortality rates in the UK- maybe it is, but I haven't seen anyone say that yet. They are also being lead by a pompous blowhard who doesn't always listen to science.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #3 

Post#134 » by PlayerUp » Sat Jul 4, 2020 9:44 pm

Dresden wrote:
PlayerUp wrote:
Dresden wrote:like Trump does when he calls Latinos murderers and rapists.


When did he say this?


When he was talking about Mexico 'not sending us it's best people".


This happened a couple years ago. He was referencing MS-13 gang members.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #3 

Post#135 » by dice » Sat Jul 4, 2020 10:03 pm

PlayerUp wrote:
Dresden wrote:
PlayerUp wrote:
When did he say this?


When he was talking about Mexico 'not sending us it's best people".


This happened a couple years ago. He was referencing MS-13 gang members.

no, he was speaking generally about immigrants. and gang members are such a tiny percentage of illegal immigrants that their mention is nothing more than a scare tactic. many immigrants flee here to get AWAY from gangs...often because the US government has interfered in the governments of the nations they are fleeing from, creating havoc
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #3 

Post#136 » by coldfish » Sat Jul 4, 2020 10:06 pm

MrSparkle wrote:
coldfish wrote:The US medical system has done a fantastic job with covid so far. They have identified treatment methodologies and quickly distributed them nationally. As we are learning, ventilators are a bad idea. Giving people oxygen in other ways has drastically reduced fatality rates. Our doctors and nurses deserve an incredible amount of respect.

This is an unfortunate truth though. The US is certainly undercounting deaths but its by 20%. The numbers in europe are far higher though with estimates as high as 50%. Some of the stories out of Italy, Spain and the UK are abhorrent. If the US had the same case fatality ratio that the UK has, there would be 320,000 more dead americans.

Some of the nationalized health care systems have done well (Germany, Canada) but many have done just a terrible job. The US is going to have the lowest infection fatality rate in the world by a good bit.

Its sickening just how many infections we have had and I blame that squarely on Trump. As I have said before, his performance (or lack thereof) on this is going to be studied for centuries. That said, let's not hold up a lot of these other countries as wonderful examples of competence. Just because the news isn't running stories on just how bad the NHS did here doesn't mean it didn't happen.


America has been a global science, tech and medical leader since the late 1800s. Has nothing to do with the health insurance system. Of course we have great doctors and nurses and facilities. We also have Silicon Valley.

It’s the inefficient insurance system that has jeopardized it and ballooned out of control the last 40 years.

We have the best universities in the world. They have also gotten completely out of control as far as cost goes. College loans and expenses have ballooned beyond ration in the last 30 years, so the dire effects of these two important industries which were in balance for most of the 20th century, they will damage the current generations into the rest of the century in ways we can’t even process. Instead of retirement funds and savings, these debt collection agencies are going to blow up with a Gen XYZ crisis while Social Security balloons and falls apart.

It’s a shame really that the American Gov. stopped playing chess and decided to allow loan sharks to pig out on the Citizens’ savings.

If you think about the “circle of money”, it would be in America’s best interest and longevity to have a stable housing market with as many people having dispensable retirement savings, be able to pay off reasonable college loans (not 250k + interest when the job market averages 40-60k), and not have to worry about $10k a year Minimum going towards health care costs by the time you hit 30, with a rapidly ascending rate by the time you hit 40.

Meanwhile, it seems we are content with entering a high and low volatility with huge stock market swings and crashes every 10 years it seems. Even if covid never happened, the Bull market was going to pop like every other insane financial bubble in Wall St and real estate history.

So middle class middle/upper age families and individuals keep getting their volatile savings wiped. Then you bail out the lenders, banks and corporations that got us there, they raise rates to re-vitalize their broken profits, and reset the cycle.

Then they blame people for making bad life choices. Oh, I didn’t know that there were 2 job sectors the entire country should feel comfortable pursuing - medical and computer/software. Unless you’re already rich, then business school is fantastic because you can use dad’s connections and start-up money to make “brilliant” investment decisions with advisors. And why not pursue a career in politics? You just need a ton of money to hit the campaign trail.


I won't give a super long reply.

IMO, people look at economics as a line between capitalism and socialism. I look at it as a triad between socialism, corporatism and free market. I think that we as a society have become way too corporatist but I would disagree with many on the solution for that.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #3 

Post#137 » by dice » Sat Jul 4, 2020 10:08 pm

PrimzyBulls81 wrote:Trump 8-)
Biden :crazy:
All what I will say..

promise?

another trump supporter that wants nothing more than to grow up and be a troll just like him. it's not about the ideology (he has none other than self-interest). it's about revenge for centuries of losing the culture war. well, that losing has just continued under trump and will continue to. progress always wins out. and ignorant, self-serving intolerance inevitably goes the way of confederate relics
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #3 

Post#138 » by dice » Sat Jul 4, 2020 10:13 pm

MrSparkle wrote:
PlayerUp wrote:
MrSparkle wrote:The ultimate irony, seeing as a majority of wealthy 2nd+ generation white men got their head-start with their ancestors’ capitalizing on slavery and claiming free lands for their own.

Aaand it’s all happening again. Right now we’re seeing record amounts of Wall St stimulus. For what? Many of these companies pumped into buybacks with no accountability.


I agree with all of this.

There are a certain % of millionaires and billionaires which are a plague to our economy. There are the good wealthy individuals like Jeff Bezos who produce hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of jobs. Then there are others who don't need to do anything but check how much money their investments made who are in it for themselves piling up endless cash, never giving back and often living a private life out of the spotlight. Then you have the greedy companies who are in it for max profit and barely give back.

There is major corruption in America but most are blind with is truly going on.


Ha well I don’t condone Bezos. He has lost his humanity in his monopolistic growth. I think there needs to be a cap. Tech makes it to easy to dominate the market. I think Google and Amazon are great, powerful and convenient but ultimately very destructive.

saying that bezos has created hundreds of thousands of jobs is misleading. it's not like all those people would be unemployed if amazon didn't exist. there would be multiple other companies in existence to fill the void, including some of those that he crushed (sometimes using unsavory business practices). and they'd probably enjoy better working conditions
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God help those fleeing misery to come here
God help the Middle East
God help the climate
God help US health care
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #3 

Post#139 » by musiqsoulchild » Sat Jul 4, 2020 11:50 pm

coldfish wrote:The US medical system has done a fantastic job with covid so far. They have identified treatment methodologies and quickly distributed them nationally. As we are learning, ventilators are a bad idea. Giving people oxygen in other ways has drastically reduced fatality rates. Our doctors and nurses deserve an incredible amount of respect.

This is an unfortunate truth though. The US is certainly undercounting deaths but its by 20%. The numbers in europe are far higher though with estimates as high as 50%. Some of the stories out of Italy, Spain and the UK are abhorrent. If the US had the same case fatality ratio that the UK has, there would be 320,000 more dead americans.

Some of the nationalized health care systems have done well (Germany, Canada) but many have done just a terrible job. The US is going to have the lowest infection fatality rate in the world by a good bit.

Its sickening just how many infections we have had and I blame that squarely on Trump. As I have said before, his performance (or lack thereof) on this is going to be studied for centuries. That said, let's not hold up a lot of these other countries as wonderful examples of competence. Just because the news isn't running stories on just how bad the NHS did here doesn't mean it didn't happen.


Fish, I do think we have an underlying public health problem. Covid is exploiting that shift underbelly.

We have a large population that already has several pre-existing red flags that Covid is just converting into ICU hospitalizations.

I think we as Americans need to really rethink our priorities going forward. Health is everything.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #3 

Post#140 » by Dresden » Sat Jul 4, 2020 11:57 pm

PlayerUp wrote:
Dresden wrote:
PlayerUp wrote:
When did he say this?


When he was talking about Mexico 'not sending us it's best people".


This happened a couple years ago. He was referencing MS-13 gang members.


Well, he should have said that. Many people took that as a slander of all immigrants coming from the south.

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