OT: COVID-19 thread #3

[musiqsoulchild]

I think you guys assume Biden would have shutdown the country in early Feb. That's just wishful thinking. Maybe he shuts down a week or two earlier but it's not a month or two earlier. Biden also isn't going to close down the southern states when they reopen. Or change the systematic issues like the unemployment boost expiring soon or tens of millions losing healthcare that's tied to their job.

I'm not saying less people don't die but we're still at 100k because we didn't give companies payroll or provide health coverage like other countries. The country has to reopen here quicker because smaller businesses and people would have the same issues they do now. He's not fundamentally changing things. It might just sound a little better but we'd still be at around 100k deaths. It's wishful thinking that we'd all be fine if he was in office. It'd be closer to what it is now than in other countries due to the systematic limitations we have. After all, we're still one of the few countries in the world where medical bankruptcies happen and that's after 8 years of Obama and Obamacare.

Don’t light a match near all these straw men, Stig.

Ignore Biden completely. Just take a look at state leadership, steps taken, and even current outcomes and trends. It will reveal a very clear distinction to relative methods.

Every day Como came out and had a conference. Every day he scolded his people and closed down his state. People thought he walked on water. Similar thing in California. They still both have the highest cases to date.

There are systematic issues in this country that make it impossible to beat this thing. If you're someone lower class and lost your job, maybe you get unemployment, maybe you can afford cobra (probably not) maybe you can buy groceries, maybe you can pay rent. Or you're not paying your rent, have no insurance, trying to call unemployment 50 times a day and standing in a 3 mile line for groceries.

The reason these other shutdown countries have worked was the government covered almost all the payroll, they have health care through the government so everyone gets it and they avoided the stress, desperation and eventual need to find some work to do and not go crazy. And as much as I agree with the protests, it's really the wrong time to be out in crowds in the street.

So I do think this is an American problem and Biden or como or obama or whoever isn't going to just make the bad man go away and fix it. After all, the bad man was elected to be president by Americans.......

The bad man was not elected by the people.

He was elected by the Electoral College.

Which is inherently a poor system and is not representative of the US population or its demographics or its wishes.

This is a weird argument you're making. Any OTHER President would on TV on Day 1 ( Feb...not March 15th) with a mask.

They'd be talking to South Korea. And immediately make Medicare available to everyone

[Ccwatercraft]

Don’t light a match near all these straw men, Stig.

Ignore Biden completely. Just take a look at state leadership, steps taken, and even current outcomes and trends. It will reveal a very clear distinction to relative methods.

Every day Como came out and had a conference. Every day he scolded his people and closed down his state. People thought he walked on water. Similar thing in California. They still both have the highest cases to date.

There are systematic issues in this country that make it impossible to beat this thing. If you're someone lower class and lost your job, maybe you get unemployment, maybe you can afford cobra (probably not) maybe you can buy groceries, maybe you can pay rent. Or you're not paying your rent, have no insurance, trying to call unemployment 50 times a day and standing in a 3 mile line for groceries.

The reason these other shutdown countries have worked was the government covered almost all the payroll, they have health care through the government so everyone gets it and they avoided the stress, desperation and eventual need to find some work to do and not go crazy. And as much as I agree with the protests, it's really the wrong time to be out in crowds in the street.

So I do think this is an American problem and Biden or como or obama or whoever isn't going to just make the bad man go away and fix it. After all, the bad man was elected to be president by Americans.......

The bad man was not elected by the people.

He was elected by the Electoral College.

Which is inherently a poor system and is not representative of the US population or its demographics or its wishes.

This is a weird argument you're making. Any OTHER President would on TV on Day 1 ( Feb...not March 15th) with a mask.

They'd be talking to South Korea. And immediately make Medicare available to everyone

Feb... not March eh? You sure about that?
Just to clarify... would that have been Feb 26th? the day after the SC democratic party debates with a full crowd and no masks?







FWIW, I humored myself and did a word search for "Mask" during the entire debate and the word was only used once, in a question directed to Biden, and he bounced right past it.

[TheStig]

Don’t light a match near all these straw men, Stig.

Ignore Biden completely. Just take a look at state leadership, steps taken, and even current outcomes and trends. It will reveal a very clear distinction to relative methods.

Every day Como came out and had a conference. Every day he scolded his people and closed down his state. People thought he walked on water. Similar thing in California. They still both have the highest cases to date.

There are systematic issues in this country that make it impossible to beat this thing. If you're someone lower class and lost your job, maybe you get unemployment, maybe you can afford cobra (probably not) maybe you can buy groceries, maybe you can pay rent. Or you're not paying your rent, have no insurance, trying to call unemployment 50 times a day and standing in a 3 mile line for groceries.

The reason these other shutdown countries have worked was the government covered almost all the payroll, they have health care through the government so everyone gets it and they avoided the stress, desperation and eventual need to find some work to do and not go crazy. And as much as I agree with the protests, it's really the wrong time to be out in crowds in the street.

So I do think this is an American problem and Biden or como or obama or whoever isn't going to just make the bad man go away and fix it. After all, the bad man was elected to be president by Americans.......

The bad man was not elected by the people.

He was elected by the Electoral College.

Which is inherently a poor system and is not representative of the US population or its demographics or its wishes.

This is a weird argument you're making. Any OTHER President would on TV on Day 1 ( Feb...not March 15th) with a mask.

They'd be talking to South Korea. And immediately make Medicare available to everyone

LOL that was a good one. Biden doesn't support Medicare for all and never put it out there that he'd make it available even on temporary basis ......

Most countries did not shutdown in Feb. I don't know why Biden would be the innovator to spearhead this thing.

[paxson_4_3]

Every day Como came out and had a conference. Every day he scolded his people and closed down his state. People thought he walked on water. Similar thing in California. They still both have the highest cases to date.

There are systematic issues in this country that make it impossible to beat this thing. If you're someone lower class and lost your job, maybe you get unemployment, maybe you can afford cobra (probably not) maybe you can buy groceries, maybe you can pay rent. Or you're not paying your rent, have no insurance, trying to call unemployment 50 times a day and standing in a 3 mile line for groceries.

The reason these other shutdown countries have worked was the government covered almost all the payroll, they have health care through the government so everyone gets it and they avoided the stress, desperation and eventual need to find some work to do and not go crazy. And as much as I agree with the protests, it's really the wrong time to be out in crowds in the street.

So I do think this is an American problem and Biden or como or obama or whoever isn't going to just make the bad man go away and fix it. After all, the bad man was elected to be president by Americans.......

The bad man was not elected by the people.

He was elected by the Electoral College.

Which is inherently a poor system and is not representative of the US population or its demographics or its wishes.

This is a weird argument you're making. Any OTHER President would on TV on Day 1 ( Feb...not March 15th) with a mask.

They'd be talking to South Korea. And immediately make Medicare available to everyone

Feb... not March eh? You sure about that?
Just to clarify... would that have been Feb 26th? the day after the SC democratic party debates with a full crowd and no masks?







FWIW, I humored myself and did a word search for "Mask" during the entire debate and the word was only used once, in a question directed to Biden, and he bounced right past it.

Simple Facts:

In february there still wasn't much knowledge available about how and how fast it spreads.
On the 29th of february Italy had a total of 1,128 active cases and 29 deaths.
It surely was already a time to show strong attention to Covid-19 but surely not the time to start with shutdowns in the US.

This changed during the first 2 weeks of march. On march 16 Germany (which was hit way earlier than the US) implemented its shutdown. On this day New York had a total of 18 deaths. It was still (kind of) early to make the right decisions and I am sure that any other president (not named Trump or Bolsonaro) would have reacted appropriately.

Trump hasn't. Until today he hasn't!

And this simple fact does not go away by showing picures from events of the democratic party from late february.

[Ccwatercraft]

The bad man was not elected by the people.

He was elected by the Electoral College.

Which is inherently a poor system and is not representative of the US population or its demographics or its wishes.

This is a weird argument you're making. Any OTHER President would on TV on Day 1 ( Feb...not March 15th) with a mask.

They'd be talking to South Korea. And immediately make Medicare available to everyone

Feb... not March eh? You sure about that?
Just to clarify... would that have been Feb 26th? the day after the SC democratic party debates with a full crowd and no masks?







FWIW, I humored myself and did a word search for "Mask" during the entire debate and the word was only used once, in a question directed to Biden, and he bounced right past it.

Simple Facts:

In february there still wasn't much knowledge available about how and how fast it spreads.
On the 29th of february Italy had a total of 1,128 active cases and 29 deaths.
It surely was already a time to show strong attention to Covid-19 but surely not the time to start with shutdowns in the US.

This changed during the first 2 weeks of march. On march 16 Germany (which was hit way earlier than the US) implemented its shutdown. In this day New York had a total of 18 deaths. It was still (kind of) early to make the right decisions and I am sure that any other president (not named Trump or Bolsonaro) would have reacted appropriately.

Trump hasn't. Until today he hasn't!

And this simple fact does not go away by showing picures from events of the democratic party from late february.

When someone says

Any OTHER President would on TV on Day 1 ( Feb...not March 15th) with a mask.

and those pic's with a large crowd and a stage full of candidates is out there in late February, not wearing masks, and not even discussing them, then I feel its a fitting response.

[paxson_4_3]

Feb... not March eh? You sure about that?
Just to clarify... would that have been Feb 26th? the day after the SC democratic party debates with a full crowd and no masks?







FWIW, I humored myself and did a word search for "Mask" during the entire debate and the word was only used once, in a question directed to Biden, and he bounced right past it.

Simple Facts:

In february there still wasn't much knowledge available about how and how fast it spreads.
On the 29th of february Italy had a total of 1,128 active cases and 29 deaths.
It surely was already a time to show strong attention to Covid-19 but surely not the time to start with shutdowns in the US.

This changed during the first 2 weeks of march. On march 16 Germany (which was hit way earlier than the US) implemented its shutdown. In this day New York had a total of 18 deaths. It was still (kind of) early to make the right decisions and I am sure that any other president (not named Trump or Bolsonaro) would have reacted appropriately.

Trump hasn't. Until today he hasn't!

And this simple fact does not go away by showing picures from events of the democratic party from late february.

When someone says

Any OTHER President would on TV on Day 1 ( Feb...not March 15th) with a mask.

and those pic's with a large crowd and a stage full of candidates is out there, not wearing masks, and not even discussing them, then I feel its a fitting response.

I'll admit that I didn't show full attention to musiqs post which leads me to the point that there is no need to use weak arguments when you have plenty of strong ones regarding Trumps failure.

[musiqsoulchild]

Every day Como came out and had a conference. Every day he scolded his people and closed down his state. People thought he walked on water. Similar thing in California. They still both have the highest cases to date.

There are systematic issues in this country that make it impossible to beat this thing. If you're someone lower class and lost your job, maybe you get unemployment, maybe you can afford cobra (probably not) maybe you can buy groceries, maybe you can pay rent. Or you're not paying your rent, have no insurance, trying to call unemployment 50 times a day and standing in a 3 mile line for groceries.

The reason these other shutdown countries have worked was the government covered almost all the payroll, they have health care through the government so everyone gets it and they avoided the stress, desperation and eventual need to find some work to do and not go crazy. And as much as I agree with the protests, it's really the wrong time to be out in crowds in the street.

So I do think this is an American problem and Biden or como or obama or whoever isn't going to just make the bad man go away and fix it. After all, the bad man was elected to be president by Americans.......

The bad man was not elected by the people.

He was elected by the Electoral College.

Which is inherently a poor system and is not representative of the US population or its demographics or its wishes.

This is a weird argument you're making. Any OTHER President would on TV on Day 1 ( Feb...not March 15th) with a mask.

They'd be talking to South Korea. And immediately make Medicare available to everyone

LOL that was a good one. Biden doesn't support Medicare for all and never put it out there that he'd make it available even on temporary basis ......

Most countries did not shutdown in Feb. I don't know why Biden would be the innovator to spearhead this thing.

Lol...dont talk about Biden.

Just talk about what's right.

It's right to have Medical care for everyone as soon as the size of the problem became evident.

If Biden didnt do it ...I'd be ripping him a new one too.

Its possible for Republican Presidents to have good ideas and Democratic Presidents to have bad ideas.

It happens a lot.

[TheStig]

The bad man was not elected by the people.

He was elected by the Electoral College.

Which is inherently a poor system and is not representative of the US population or its demographics or its wishes.

This is a weird argument you're making. Any OTHER President would on TV on Day 1 ( Feb...not March 15th) with a mask.

They'd be talking to South Korea. And immediately make Medicare available to everyone

LOL that was a good one. Biden doesn't support Medicare for all and never put it out there that he'd make it available even on temporary basis ......

Most countries did not shutdown in Feb. I don't know why Biden would be the innovator to spearhead this thing.

Lol...dont talk about Biden.

Just talk about what's right.

It's right to have Medical care for everyone as soon as the size of the problem became evident.

If Biden didnt do it ...I'd be ripping him a new one too.

Its possible for Republican Presidents to have good ideas and Democratic Presidents to have bad ideas.

It happens a lot.

I mean the point I was responding to originally was Biden would do a massively better job. You brought up medicare for all, which is something he's stated he doesn't support. He hasn't come out and said he'd do it temporarily. I'm only familiar with a few dems who would actually do it. Which was the other point that the dem Govs are doing better.

So what exactly are they going to do or have done better? The big dem states are NY and CA. Both lead the country in cases and deaths. The results for the mainstream Dems are not better.....

I'm all for rewarding whoever is right or making an impact but Como is not some sort of here because he gets on tv and scolds people. He's only leading the way in cases and deaths. And a lot of them are do to his lead with putting people back in nursing homes. He then gave them immunity like a good corporate whore!

I'm sure Biden appears nicer but you actually have to have a plan and lead. Having someone who didn't like the last guy and undoing everything is Trump. We need someone with vision, ideas, a way to remove the control of money from our government, make peoples lives better and such. Instead we got dumb and dumber. Except this one has a sad ending.

[TheEndIsNigh]

I don't believe Biden would have instituted Medicare for all in response to the pandemic. I do believe he would have opened up the ACA exchanges, however, to make sure people losing their jobs would have access to affordable insurance. Cobra is not affordable insurance. Trump specifically didn't open the exchanges, and the only reason I can deduce for the decision is his distaste for Obama.

Also, Biden would have focused on stimulus for the middle and lower classes, instead of the supply minded approach taken by the Trump administration. Trump is fighting any oversite of the distribution of stimulus related funds. Why? Well, because it's coming out that funds are going to people who do not need them, or to his political henchmen. Nunes gets some, McAnamy family gets some, McConnell family gets some, red hat Kanye West gets some, while I know multiple small business owners that needed the help, applied and received nothing.

Biden would not have shrouded the handling of these funds in a shroud of secrecy. I have no doubt corporations would have received bailouts under Biden, but I believe much more of the distributions would have been focused on small business and the middle class. Keeping the drivers of demand solvent is going to go much further in maintaining our economic stability than giving it to those who don't need it.

[PaKii94]

Watch on YouTube

[Ccwatercraft]

Simple Facts:

In february there still wasn't much knowledge available about how and how fast it spreads.
On the 29th of february Italy had a total of 1,128 active cases and 29 deaths.
It surely was already a time to show strong attention to Covid-19 but surely not the time to start with shutdowns in the US.

This changed during the first 2 weeks of march. On march 16 Germany (which was hit way earlier than the US) implemented its shutdown. In this day New York had a total of 18 deaths. It was still (kind of) early to make the right decisions and I am sure that any other president (not named Trump or Bolsonaro) would have reacted appropriately.

Trump hasn't. Until today he hasn't!

And this simple fact does not go away by showing picures from events of the democratic party from late february.

When someone says

Any OTHER President would on TV on Day 1 ( Feb...not March 15th) with a mask.

and those pic's with a large crowd and a stage full of candidates is out there, not wearing masks, and not even discussing them, then I feel its a fitting response.

I'll admit that I didn't show full attention to musiqs post which leads me to the point that there is no need to use weak arguments when you have plenty of strong ones regarding Trumps failure.

Agree 100%.

Which is why I decided to point it out since there were multiple posts using the same weak argument.

[TheStig]

I don't believe Biden would have instituted Medicare for all in response to the pandemic. I do believe he would have opened up the ACA exchanges, however, to make sure people losing their jobs would have access to affordable insurance. Cobra is not affordable insurance. Trump specifically didn't open the exchanges, and the only reason I can deduce for the decision is his distaste for Obama.

Also, Biden would have focused on stimulus for the middle and lower classes, instead of the supply minded approach taken by the Trump administration. Trump is fighting any oversite of the distribution of stimulus related funds. Why? Well, because it's coming out that funds are going to people who do not need them, or to his political henchmen. Nunes gets some, McAnamy family gets some, McConnell family gets some, red hat Kanye West gets some, while I know multiple small business owners that needed the help, applied and received nothing.

Biden would not have shrouded the handling of these funds in a shroud of secrecy. I have no doubt corporations would have received bailouts under Biden, but I believe much more of the distributions would have been focused on small business and the middle class. Keeping the drivers of demand solvent is going to go much further in maintaining our economic stability than giving it to those who don't need it.

The ACA exchanges are not affordable. They're rather pricey unless you have always had a very low income. If you were making good money, got laid off, got expanded unemployment and then get rehired at the end of the year, you'll lose all those subsidies. So you'll either qualify for not much or end up paying most of it back if you were laid off for say half the year.

The problem with Obamacare was that they never attacked the real issue with healthcare. And that's why we are gouged. Healthcare companies made record profits from it. Obamacare made them take everyone but it worked out great for the companies and not so well for real people. I will say it did do a lot for the poorest people but not the average person or family. They never addressed the gouging on prescription drugs or capping costs. That's why it was falling apart even before Obama left office. Had he put caps on prescriptions and the most extreme price gouging and had a public option and no mandate, it would of been great. But it's not, it failed and trying to rescue it on it's death bed is stupid.

[TheEndIsNigh]

I don't believe Biden would have instituted Medicare for all in response to the pandemic. I do believe he would have opened up the ACA exchanges, however, to make sure people losing their jobs would have access to affordable insurance. Cobra is not affordable insurance. Trump specifically didn't open the exchanges, and the only reason I can deduce for the decision is his distaste for Obama.

Also, Biden would have focused on stimulus for the middle and lower classes, instead of the supply minded approach taken by the Trump administration. Trump is fighting any oversite of the distribution of stimulus related funds. Why? Well, because it's coming out that funds are going to people who do not need them, or to his political henchmen. Nunes gets some, McAnamy family gets some, McConnell family gets some, red hat Kanye West gets some, while I know multiple small business owners that needed the help, applied and received nothing.

Biden would not have shrouded the handling of these funds in a shroud of secrecy. I have no doubt corporations would have received bailouts under Biden, but I believe much more of the distributions would have been focused on small business and the middle class. Keeping the drivers of demand solvent is going to go much further in maintaining our economic stability than giving it to those who don't need it.

The ACA exchanges are not affordable. They're rather pricey unless you have always had a very low income. If you were making good money, got laid off, got expanded unemployment and then get rehired at the end of the year, you'll lose all those subsidies. So you'll either qualify for not much or end up paying most of it back if you were laid off for say half the year.

The problem with Obamacare was that they never attacked the real issue with healthcare. And that's why we are gouged. Healthcare companies made record profits from it. Obamacare made them take everyone but it worked out great for the companies and not so well for real people. I will say it did do a lot for the poorest people but not the average person or family. They never addressed the gouging on prescription drugs or capping costs. That's why it was falling apart even before Obama left office. Had he put caps on prescriptions and the most extreme price gouging and had a public option and no mandate, it would of been great. But it's not, it failed and trying to rescue it on it's death bed is stupid.

I'm familiar with the ACA's implementation in our market, and it's surprisingly excellent as far as affordability of the plan. The plans, as in all plans in this market, kinda suck. But that's a different issue.

I have used ACA coverage for 3 years now, and I know several people who also get insurance from the exchange. People making $20 an hour are paying $17 a month for coverage. That's less than people here with employer based plans, and the benefits are literally exactly the same. So in regard to affordability, at least in this market, I do not agree. Also, you'd be very surprised at just how much you can make before you're excluded from subsidies. I want to say it was $140,000 for a family of 4.

I was sceptical, but in my experience the ACA market has been a success as far as providing access is concerned.

[Bullbleep]

Whatever New Mexico is doing to stay off that list, maybe others should take note.

Half funny, half sad; but this is what New Mexico is doing right now:

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2020/07/09/new-mexico-runs-letters-encouraging-covid-19-safe-practices-visitors-arizona-texas/5403272002/

I know she's not on the A list, but Lujan Grisham would be an outstanding choice for the Veep side of the Democratic ticket...

[dice]

I think you guys assume Biden would have shutdown the country in early Feb. That's just wishful thinking. Maybe he shuts down a week or two earlier but it's not a month or two earlier. Biden also isn't going to close down the southern states when they reopen. Or change the systematic issues like the unemployment boost expiring soon or tens of millions losing healthcare that's tied to their job.

I'm not saying less people don't die but we're still at 100k because we didn't give companies payroll or provide health coverage like other countries. The country has to reopen here quicker because smaller businesses and people would have the same issues they do now. He's not fundamentally changing things. It might just sound a little better but we'd still be at around 100k deaths. It's wishful thinking that we'd all be fine if he was in office. It'd be closer to what it is now than in other countries due to the systematic limitations we have. After all, we're still one of the few countries in the world where medical bankruptcies happen and that's after 8 years of Obama and Obamacare.

Don’t light a match near all these straw men, Stig.

Ignore Biden completely. Just take a look at state leadership, steps taken, and even current outcomes and trends. It will reveal a very clear distinction to relative methods.

Every day Como came out and had a conference. Every day he scolded his people and closed down his state. People thought he walked on water. Similar thing in California. They still both have the highest cases to date.

that's not the right way of looking at it

what percentage of NY's population is immune to the virus right now (assuming there is such a thing)? a very small percentage. spain just did a study that showed that 5% of their population has antibodies. i doubt the NY's is much higher. so why is NY's case load so low right NOW per capita compared to many other states? it's because they learned the lessons while other states did not. and that's what matters. NY, NJ and cali have some of the most densely populated cities in the country. NYC, LA and san fran are hubs of chinese travel. seattle and chicago are too (miami, another densely populated city, is not). there's a reason why these places got hit hard early. and it ain't poor leadership. it's because the virus was spreading undetected before anybody knew about it. and because we didn't at that point know much about HOW it was transmitted. a plan needs to be formulated before it is implemented

if the state of florida had competent leadership, they would have done everything possible to, at minimum, protect the city of miami. because once it got hold there there was no stopping it

the entire state of illinois was on lockdown for 70 days. desantis had florida on lockdown for 32 days (46 for miami). michigan was on lockdown for 52 days. a florida resident on this site said "so glad i don't live in michigan"

There are systematic issues in this country that make it impossible to beat this thing. If you're someone lower class and lost your job, maybe you get unemployment, maybe you can afford cobra (probably not) maybe you can buy groceries, maybe you can pay rent. Or you're not paying your rent, have no insurance, trying to call unemployment 50 times a day and standing in a 3 mile line for groceries.

The reason these other shutdown countries have worked was the government covered almost all the payroll, they have health care through the government so everyone gets it and they avoided the stress, desperation and eventual need to find some work to do and not go crazy.

mostly agree. it still doesn't explain why the south is getting hit so much harder right now

And as much as I agree with the protests, it's really the wrong time to be out in crowds in the street.

unfortunately, i think that the pandemic was part of the spark. black people in particular were disproportionately at home unable to work, disproportionately in urban areas with little room to roam, disproportionately disadvantaged by society to begin with, growing more mentally unstable by the day. it was like a powder keg. then that awful video came out. and frankly, there was no better time to capture the attention of america, so the media attention further fueled the fire

and the protests have not been shown to have a notable effect on the spread of the virus. fortunately. as evidenced by their prevalence in some of those densely populated northern cities that are doing comparatively well fighting the virus right now. as it turns out, the virus is massively more transmittable indoors. and a lot of the protesters were wearing masks, with many attempting to social distance

So I do think this is an American problem and Biden or como or obama or whoever isn't going to just make the bad man go away and fix it.

i do think it was inevitable that the US would be hit harder. but the federal leadership has been absolutely abysmal. the CDC put out guidelines for reopening states and almost immediately trump began his push for those guidelines to be ignored. that gave political coverage for birther party governors to do just that. they locked down later and opened up sooner. and now we're seeing the results of those decisions

arizona just surpassed NY's peak of per capita infections. astonishing. 60 residents per square mile. NY has 420. and arizona has had the additional benefit of months of preparation time. including additional prevention knowledge. at least florida has the excuse of having the highest pop. density of any non-northeastern state

[dice]

Whatever New Mexico is doing to stay off that list, maybe others should take note.

Half funny, half sad; but this is what New Mexico is doing right now:

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2020/07/09/new-mexico-runs-letters-encouraging-covid-19-safe-practices-visitors-arizona-texas/5403272002/

I know she's not on the A list, but Lujan Grisham would be an outstanding choice for the Veep side of the Democratic ticket...

lower population density than idaho, too

[dice]

I don't believe Biden would have instituted Medicare for all in response to the pandemic. I do believe he would have opened up the ACA exchanges, however, to make sure people losing their jobs would have access to affordable insurance. Cobra is not affordable insurance. Trump specifically didn't open the exchanges, and the only reason I can deduce for the decision is his distaste for Obama.

Also, Biden would have focused on stimulus for the middle and lower classes, instead of the supply minded approach taken by the Trump administration. Trump is fighting any oversite of the distribution of stimulus related funds. Why? Well, because it's coming out that funds are going to people who do not need them, or to his political henchmen. Nunes gets some, McAnamy family gets some, McConnell family gets some, red hat Kanye West gets some, while I know multiple small business owners that needed the help, applied and received nothing.

Biden would not have shrouded the handling of these funds in a shroud of secrecy. I have no doubt corporations would have received bailouts under Biden, but I believe much more of the distributions would have been focused on small business and the middle class. Keeping the drivers of demand solvent is going to go much further in maintaining our economic stability than giving it to those who don't need it.

The ACA exchanges are not affordable. They're rather pricey unless you have always had a very low income. If you were making good money, got laid off, got expanded unemployment and then get rehired at the end of the year, you'll lose all those subsidies. So you'll either qualify for not much or end up paying most of it back if you were laid off for say half the year.

The problem with Obamacare was that they never attacked the real issue with healthcare. And that's why we are gouged. Healthcare companies made record profits from it. Obamacare made them take everyone but it worked out great for the companies and not so well for real people. I will say it did do a lot for the poorest people but not the average person or family. They never addressed the gouging on prescription drugs or capping costs. That's why it was falling apart even before Obama left office. Had he put caps on prescriptions and the most extreme price gouging and had a public option and no mandate, it would of been great. But it's not, it failed and trying to rescue it on it's death bed is stupid.

I'm familiar with the ACA's implementation in our market, and it's surprisingly excellent as far as affordability of the plan. The plans, as in all plans in this market, kinda suck. But that's a different issue.

I have used ACA coverage for 3 years now, and I know several people who also get insurance from the exchange. People making $20 an hour are paying $17 a month for coverage. That's less than people here with employer based plans, and the benefits are literally exactly the same. So in regard to affordability, at least in this market, I do not agree. Also, you'd be very surprised at just how much you can make before you're excluded from subsidies. I want to say it was $140,000 for a family of 4.

I was sceptical, but in my experience the ACA market has been a success as far as providing access is concerned.

yeah, he's totally wrong on this one. to say that "trying to rescue it on it's death bed is stupid" is itself stupid

1) it's not on its death bed. the only reason it's in trouble is because trump has made every attempt to shut it down from the day he stepped into office

2) even if it didn't help middle class families, to use that as an excuse to throw millions of poor families into turmoil is astonishingly selfish

3) it DOES help middle class families. there's a reason why the medical bankruptcy rate has plummeted. and it's because many middle class families no longer are forced to declare bankruptcy because someone in their family got sick. individuals earning less than $50K are eligible for premium reductions. same goes for a family of 3 making less than $85K. that's a whoooooole lot of middle class families paying less for health care than they otherwise would be

4) PRE-EXISTING CONDITIONS. prior to obamacare, insurance companies could refuse to provide insurance or DROP insurance for anyone with a pre-existing condition. even trump and hardcore free market ideologues now at least pretend that that is unacceptable

5) frequent use of ERs fell after the ACA was implemented because more poor people had access to non-emergency medical care. talk to anyone who has had to go the ER w/o insurance if you wanna hear a story about being gouged

6) obama himself did not have the power to "put caps on prescriptions and the most extreme price gouging and have a public option and no mandate." the ACA was not implemented through fiat. it was accomplished through months of painstaking negotiation in congress. obama wanted a public option. he quickly realized that it was not politically feasible. and the structural foundation of its financing is a mandate. without a mandate, healthy people are less incentivized to enroll, which jacks up rates.
everyone is required to have auto insurance too

7) middle class people who are unemployed (myself included) have access to affordable health care and are thus not forced to take some garbage job just to have health care

8) young people can stay on their parents' plans until age 27

9) no more lifetime limits on coverage payments. previously, many people with insurance were covered...until their costs got too high

but the two headline features of obamacare are medicaid expansion and premium subsidies. both have had their desired effects...aside from red state governors purely for political reasons declining the federally paid-for medicaid expansions for their states. which both sabotages their own state's finances and cruelly treats financially disadvantaged residents. all in the name of being able to say that they rejected obamacare

[TheStig]

Don’t light a match near all these straw men, Stig.

Ignore Biden completely. Just take a look at state leadership, steps taken, and even current outcomes and trends. It will reveal a very clear distinction to relative methods.

Every day Como came out and had a conference. Every day he scolded his people and closed down his state. People thought he walked on water. Similar thing in California. They still both have the highest cases to date.

that's not the right way of looking at it

what percentage of NY's population is immune to the virus right now (assuming there is such a thing)? a very small percentage. spain just did a study that showed that 5% of their population has antibodies. i doubt the NY's is much higher. so why is NY's case load so low right NOW per capita compared to many other states? it's because they learned the lessons while other states did not. and that's what matters. NY, NJ and cali have some of the most densely populated cities in the country. NYC, LA and san fran are hubs of chinese travel. seattle and chicago are too (miami, another densely populated city, is not). there's a reason why these places got hit hard early. and it ain't poor leadership. it's because the virus was spreading undetected before anybody knew about it. and because we didn't at that point know much about HOW it was transmitted. a plan needs to be formulated before it is implemented

if the state of florida had competent leadership, they would have done everything possible to, at minimum, protect the city of miami. because once it got hold there there was no stopping it

the entire state of illinois was on lockdown for 70 days. desantis had florida on lockdown for 32 days (46 for miami). michigan was on lockdown for 52 days. a florida resident on this site said "so glad i don't live in michigan"

There are systematic issues in this country that make it impossible to beat this thing. If you're someone lower class and lost your job, maybe you get unemployment, maybe you can afford cobra (probably not) maybe you can buy groceries, maybe you can pay rent. Or you're not paying your rent, have no insurance, trying to call unemployment 50 times a day and standing in a 3 mile line for groceries.

The reason these other shutdown countries have worked was the government covered almost all the payroll, they have health care through the government so everyone gets it and they avoided the stress, desperation and eventual need to find some work to do and not go crazy.

mostly agree. it still doesn't explain why the south is getting hit so much harder right now

And as much as I agree with the protests, it's really the wrong time to be out in crowds in the street.

unfortunately, i think that the pandemic was part of the spark. black people in particular were disproportionately at home unable to work, disproportionately in urban areas with little room to roam, disproportionately disadvantaged by society to begin with, growing more mentally unstable by the day. it was like a powder keg. then that awful video came out. and frankly, there was no better time to capture the attention of america, so the media attention further fueled the fire

and the protests have not been shown to have a notable effect on the spread of the virus. fortunately. as evidenced by their prevalence in some of those densely populated northern cities that are doing comparatively well fighting the virus right now. as it turns out, the virus is massively more transmittable indoors. and a lot of the protesters were wearing masks, with many attempting to social distance

So I do think this is an American problem and Biden or como or obama or whoever isn't going to just make the bad man go away and fix it.

i do think it was inevitable that the US would be hit harder. but the federal leadership has been absolutely abysmal. the CDC put out guidelines for reopening states and almost immediately trump began his push for those guidelines to be ignored. that gave political coverage for birther party governors to do just that. they locked down later and opened up sooner. and now we're seeing the results of those decisions

arizona just surpassed NY's peak of per capita infections. astonishing. 60 residents per square mile. NY has 420. and arizona has had the additional benefit of months of preparation time. including additional prevention knowledge. at least florida has the excuse of having the highest pop. density of any non-northeastern state

You need to stop watching CNN and go to the CDC.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/cases-in-us.html

Anyone who thinks Como is some kind of Covid whisper is a damn fool. They have by far and away a disproportionate amount of cases and deaths. And that's not including the fact that Florida and Arizona have a much greater percentage of seniors. You know those that are the majority of deaths.

NYC has 2x the cases and more than 10x the deaths of arizona despite being within a half million of pop.

NYS has 2x the cases and 5x the deathes of Florida despite having a smaller pop

NYS has nearly 2x the cases and more than 10x the deaths of TX despite having 50% less people.

NYC
POP 8.4M
Cases 220k Cases
Deaths 23k Deaths

NY State Total
Pop 19.5 M
Cases 401k Cases
Deaths 32k

Texas
Pop 29 M
Cases 220K
Deaths 2800

Florida
Pop 21.5 M
Cases 220K
Deaths 4k

Arizona
Pop 7.3M
Cases 108k
Deaths 2k

Como is not the hero here. He's not the poster boy for Covid response. He just gave a better presser. In fact, he killed many more seniors because he sent them back to nursing homes.

[TheStig]

The ACA exchanges are not affordable. They're rather pricey unless you have always had a very low income. If you were making good money, got laid off, got expanded unemployment and then get rehired at the end of the year, you'll lose all those subsidies. So you'll either qualify for not much or end up paying most of it back if you were laid off for say half the year.

The problem with Obamacare was that they never attacked the real issue with healthcare. And that's why we are gouged. Healthcare companies made record profits from it. Obamacare made them take everyone but it worked out great for the companies and not so well for real people. I will say it did do a lot for the poorest people but not the average person or family. They never addressed the gouging on prescription drugs or capping costs. That's why it was falling apart even before Obama left office. Had he put caps on prescriptions and the most extreme price gouging and had a public option and no mandate, it would of been great. But it's not, it failed and trying to rescue it on it's death bed is stupid.

I'm familiar with the ACA's implementation in our market, and it's surprisingly excellent as far as affordability of the plan. The plans, as in all plans in this market, kinda suck. But that's a different issue.

I have used ACA coverage for 3 years now, and I know several people who also get insurance from the exchange. People making $20 an hour are paying $17 a month for coverage. That's less than people here with employer based plans, and the benefits are literally exactly the same. So in regard to affordability, at least in this market, I do not agree. Also, you'd be very surprised at just how much you can make before you're excluded from subsidies. I want to say it was $140,000 for a family of 4.

I was sceptical, but in my experience the ACA market has been a success as far as providing access is concerned.

yeah, he's totally wrong on this one. to say that "trying to rescue it on it's death bed is stupid" is itself stupid

1) it's not on its death bed. the only reason it's in trouble is because trump has made every attempt to shut it down from the day he stepped into office

2) even if it didn't help middle class families, to use that as an excuse to throw millions of poor families into turmoil is astonishingly selfish

3) it DOES help middle class families. there's a reason why the medical bankruptcy rate has plummeted. and it's because many middle class families no longer are forced to declare bankruptcy because someone in their family got sick. individuals earning less than $50K are eligible for premium reductions. same goes for a family of 3 making less than $85K. that's a whoooooole lot of middle class families paying less for health care than they otherwise would be

4) PRE-EXISTING CONDITIONS. prior to obamacare, insurance companies could refuse to provide insurance or DROP insurance for anyone with a pre-existing condition. even trump and hardcore free market ideologues now at least pretend that that is unacceptable

5) frequent use of ERs fell after the ACA was implemented because more poor people had access to non-emergency medical care. talk to anyone who has had to go the ER w/o insurance if you wanna hear a story about being gouged

6) obama himself did not have the power to "put caps on prescriptions and the most extreme price gouging and have a public option and no mandate." the ACA was not implemented through fiat. it was accomplished through months of painstaking negotiation in congress. obama wanted a public option. he quickly realized that it was not politically feasible. and the structural foundation of its financing is a mandate. without a mandate, healthy people are less incentivized to enroll, which jacks up rates.
everyone is required to have auto insurance too

7) middle class people who are unemployed (myself included) have access to affordable health care and are thus not forced to take some garbage job just to have health care

8) young people can stay on their parents' plans until age 27

9) no more lifetime limits on coverage payments. previously, many people with insurance were covered...until their costs got too high

but the two headline features of obamacare are medicaid expansion and premium subsidies. both have had their desired effects...aside from red state governors purely for political reasons declining the federally paid-for medicaid expansions for their states. which both sabotages their own state's finances and cruelly treats financially disadvantaged residents. all in the name of being able to say that they rejected obamacare

I'm not going through all of this. This was a central point of the election and a good reason Trump won. Obamacare was falling apart way before Trump got here because it was poorly constructed in large part due to the fact it did nothing to control costs. Everyone in the sector had record profits from Obamacare and it did not help most people.

[TheStig]

Meanwhile, today's focus by the brilliant one: let's get those schools open asap!

I don't even know if we can survive 6 more months of this. Possibly not hyperbole, that's the scary part.

6 months?

That would mean he got reelected

I just cant...

Actually it wouldn't. The election is in November but a new president wouldn't get sworn in till Jan. Even if Trump loses, he will still finish out the year.