Warriors name change

[GQ Hot Dog]

Indians suffer from some of the highest rates of poverty, violence and substance abuse in the country. That really concerns me, just as all the other ethnicities that suffer from these social problems concern me. If changing a mascot helps to relieve those pressures than they should be changed. If changing a mascot improves the living conditions of a single person then it should be changed.

If not, then you're wasting my time and the time and attention of every person suffering from social neglect in the country, Indians included. If you can't live in, eat or go to work in changing a mascot then it's a dishonest, fraudulent smokescreen for the actual problems that plague people in this country and around the world.

[CS707]

I agree with this. So lets talk about some cheerleaders banging on a drum, leading a chant obviously meant to sound native, with a 40,000 people shopping their hands. Seems pretty damn offensive (and racist - demeaning another heritage) to me, but what do I know. But lets not change it cause... you know, its a tradition for a bunch of drunk kids.

Ok, let's just set the table me clarifying that I agree it's in poor taste.

That said, I'm having trouble connecting it to actually being racist. Does it discriminate or show prejudice or infer that Native Americans are inferior to other races? Maybe an argument could be made for antagonism but even then it's really weak IMO. Cultural appropriation is rampant among all demographics as Jeremy Lin so hilariously pointed out with Kenyan Martin's tattoos. If it's not racist then it really opens the discussion to everyone.

I don't know where the line is drawn. What I do know is that it is offensive and demeaning and should be changed. And it will be changed eventually - but like any kind of change, will probably take awhile.

But how is it demeaning? Does it make people lose respect for Native Americans? Does it make them appear inferior?

Not trying to be a d**k at all but I'm just trying to understand where that comes from.

[azwfan]

Indians suffer from some of the highest rates of poverty, violence and substance abuse in the country. That really concerns me, just as all the other ethnicities that suffer from these social problems concern me. If changing a mascot helps to relieve those pressures than they should be changed. If changing a mascot improves the living conditions of a single person then it should be changed.

If not, then you're wasting my time and the time and attention of every person suffering from social neglect in the country, Indians included. If you can't live in, eat or go to work in changing a mascot then it's a dishonest, fraudulent smokescreen for the actual problems that plague people in this country and around the world.

Probably shouldn't be using the "wasting my time" argument while posting on a basketball forum. You have plenty of time. But carry on.

[azwfan]

Ok, let's just set the table me clarifying that I agree it's in poor taste.

That said, I'm having trouble connecting it to actually being racist. Does it discriminate or show prejudice or infer that Native Americans are inferior to other races? Maybe an argument could be made for antagonism but even then it's really weak IMO. Cultural appropriation is rampant among all demographics as Jeremy Lin so hilariously pointed out with Kenyan Martin's tattoos. If it's not racist then it really opens the discussion to everyone.

I don't know where the line is drawn. What I do know is that it is offensive and demeaning and should be changed. And it will be changed eventually - but like any kind of change, will probably take awhile.

But how is it demeaning? Does it make people lose respect for Native Americans? Does it make them appear inferior?

Not trying to be a d**k at all but I'm just trying to understand where that comes from.

Its a bastardization of the natives... basically mocking natives. Which yes, loses respect. Inferior in some way, because its depicting natives as non-intellectual, barbarian type peoples.

I'm no expert, but similar to blackface i'm guessing.

[azwfan]

This reminds me of the Daily Show's episode about the Washington team's name from a few years ago.

Watch on YouTube

[GQ Hot Dog]

Indians suffer from some of the highest rates of poverty, violence and substance abuse in the country. That really concerns me, just as all the other ethnicities that suffer from these social problems concern me. If changing a mascot helps to relieve those pressures than they should be changed. If changing a mascot improves the living conditions of a single person then it should be changed.

If not, then you're wasting my time and the time and attention of every person suffering from social neglect in the country, Indians included. If you can't live in, eat or go to work in changing a mascot then it's a dishonest, fraudulent smokescreen for the actual problems that plague people in this country and around the world.

Probably shouldn't be using the "wasting my time" argument while posting on a basketball forum. You have plenty of time. But carry on.

C'mon now, you know what I'm saying.

[CS707]

I don't know where the line is drawn. What I do know is that it is offensive and demeaning and should be changed. And it will be changed eventually - but like any kind of change, will probably take awhile.

But how is it demeaning? Does it make people lose respect for Native Americans? Does it make them appear inferior?

Not trying to be a d**k at all but I'm just trying to understand where that comes from.

Its a bastardization of the natives... basically mocking natives. Which yes, loses respect. Inferior in some way, because its depicting natives as non-intellectual, barbarian type peoples.

I'm no expert, but similar to blackface i'm guessing.

Yeah I don't know. Definitely silly but I think the intent to mock or disrespect is exaggerated here. Kinda like rugby teams doing the haka pregame. Sure they look like dorks but racist and demeaning? Maybe a touch sensitive on that one.

[azwfan]

Indians suffer from some of the highest rates of poverty, violence and substance abuse in the country. That really concerns me, just as all the other ethnicities that suffer from these social problems concern me. If changing a mascot helps to relieve those pressures than they should be changed. If changing a mascot improves the living conditions of a single person then it should be changed.

If not, then you're wasting my time and the time and attention of every person suffering from social neglect in the country, Indians included. If you can't live in, eat or go to work in changing a mascot then it's a dishonest, fraudulent smokescreen for the actual problems that plague people in this country and around the world.

Probably shouldn't be using the "wasting my time" argument while posting on a basketball forum. You have plenty of time. But carry on.

C'mon now, you know what I'm saying.

I think what you are saying is that you don't think changing the name makes a tangible difference in the lives of natives. And because of that you don't want to be bothered with it because it distracts you from your work on making tangible changes in the lives of natives - or other neglected peoples. (?) If that is what you are saying, and you are making tangible difference in the lives of natives, i applaud you.

If you are saying its just distracting your concern (and your concern doesn't make a tangible difference in the lives of natives either), then... I'm not sure that means much of anything. ?

Name changing a sports franchise effects you ZERO. And takes ZERO effort from you, but keeping the status quo is offensive to a group of people. Not sure how i see that wasting your time, effort, energy, or anything of yours.

[azwfan]

But how is it demeaning? Does it make people lose respect for Native Americans? Does it make them appear inferior?

Not trying to be a d**k at all but I'm just trying to understand where that comes from.

Its a bastardization of the natives... basically mocking natives. Which yes, loses respect. Inferior in some way, because its depicting natives as non-intellectual, barbarian type peoples.

I'm no expert, but similar to blackface i'm guessing.

Yeah I don't know. Definitely silly but I'm think the intent to mock or disrespect is exaggerated here. Kinda like rugby teams doing the haka pregame. Sure they look like dorks but racist and demeaning? Maybe a touch sensitive on that one.

Who cares about the intent. But that is effect of what it is doing. The intent of the fans is to just have fun, obviously. The bottom line is, you either choose to care, or choose to not care and dismiss.

[ILOVEIT]

Golden State Bay Area Bombers - nicknames for the offense..."Bomb Squad" etc.

I don't think Warriors should change it. Maybe the PR is just saying that "Warriors are no longer associated with Indian Warriors...."

[CS707]

Its a bastardization of the natives... basically mocking natives. Which yes, loses respect. Inferior in some way, because its depicting natives as non-intellectual, barbarian type peoples.

I'm no expert, but similar to blackface i'm guessing.

Yeah I don't know. Definitely silly but I'm think the intent to mock or disrespect is exaggerated here. Kinda like rugby teams doing the haka pregame. Sure they look like dorks but racist and demeaning? Maybe a touch sensitive on that one.

Who cares about the intent. But that is effect of what it is doing. The intent of the fans is to just have fun, obviously. The bottom line is, you either choose to care, or choose to not care and dismiss.

Just so I understand, these things that aren't overtly racist or intentionally demeaning make you feel worse about yourself as a person?

[GQ Hot Dog]

Probably shouldn't be using the "wasting my time" argument while posting on a basketball forum. You have plenty of time. But carry on.

C'mon now, you know what I'm saying.

I think what you are saying is that you don't think changing the name makes a tangible difference in the lives of natives. And because of that you don't want to be bothered with it because it distracts you from your work on making tangible changes in the lives of natives - or other neglected peoples. (?) If that is what you are saying, and you are making tangible difference in the lives of natives, i applaud you.

If you are saying its just distracting your concern (and your concern doesn't make a tangible difference in the lives of natives either), then... I'm not sure that means much of anything. ?

Name changing a sports franchise effects you ZERO. And takes ZERO effort from you, but keeping the status quo is offensive to a group of people. Not sure how i see that wasting your time, effort, energy, or anything of yours.

I think it's not the appropriate place to discuss how I specifically make tangible change in the lives of neglected people but if you read the wsws.org you're looking in the right direction.

[azwfan]

Yeah I don't know. Definitely silly but I'm think the intent to mock or disrespect is exaggerated here. Kinda like rugby teams doing the haka pregame. Sure they look like dorks but racist and demeaning? Maybe a touch sensitive on that one.

Who cares about the intent. But that is effect of what it is doing. The intent of the fans is to just have fun, obviously. The bottom line is, you either choose to care, or choose to not care and dismiss.

Just so I understand, these things that aren't overtly racist or intentionally demeaning make you feel worse about yourself as a person?

No, I think it makes people lose respect for natives.
I am half white (ancestors from multiple european countries) and half native (from multiple tribes but member of Choctaw nation). Culturally, I grew up in east san jose, have an asian immigrant wife, most of my friends are either American Mexican (but also friends in Mexico) or asian (again - those that born and raised in the states, and those that are immigrants, and those that have never been to the states and live overseas). I would say I'm more American / Asian culturally, than anything to do with Native American (although i am making an effort to learn lately). I am probably not a good example of how natives feel about the issue. I do know natives that are much, MUCH, more passionate about it then I am - not that I think they're wrong... just that I'm not as passionate about it then they are. Honestly, though it is amusing to hear someone call my thinking on the issue - sensitive though. Since I'm probably one of the least sensitive people i know in regards to this issue (from those that actually care about it). Although, I admit, once i get going I can start getting more sensitive as I think about it more and start discussing it.

[azwfan]

C'mon now, you know what I'm saying.

I think what you are saying is that you don't think changing the name makes a tangible difference in the lives of natives. And because of that you don't want to be bothered with it because it distracts you from your work on making tangible changes in the lives of natives - or other neglected peoples. (?) If that is what you are saying, and you are making tangible difference in the lives of natives, i applaud you.

If you are saying its just distracting your concern (and your concern doesn't make a tangible difference in the lives of natives either), then... I'm not sure that means much of anything. ?

Name changing a sports franchise effects you ZERO. And takes ZERO effort from you, but keeping the status quo is offensive to a group of people. Not sure how i see that wasting your time, effort, energy, or anything of yours.

I think it's not the appropriate place to discuss how I specifically make tangible change in the lives of neglected people but if you read the wsws.org you're looking in the right direction.

That's awesome that you are making or attempting to make tangible change in anyone's lives.
How does a discussion of name change of sports teams do anything to your work? Because that was the point of my response.

[CS707]

Who cares about the intent. But that is effect of what it is doing. The intent of the fans is to just have fun, obviously. The bottom line is, you either choose to care, or choose to not care and dismiss.

Just so I understand, these things that aren't overtly racist or intentionally demeaning make you feel worse about yourself as a person?

No, I think it makes people lose respect for natives.
I am half white (ancestors from multiple european countries) and half native (from multiple tribes but member of Choctaw nation). Culturally, I grew up in east san jose, have an asian immigrant wife, most of my friends are either American Mexican (but also friends in Mexico) or asian (again - those that born and raised in the states, and those that are immigrants, and those that have never been to the states and live overseas). I would say I'm more American / Asian culturally, than anything to do with Native American (although i am making an effort to learn lately). I am probably not a good example of how natives feel about the issue. I do know natives that are much, MUCH, more passionate about it then I am - not that I think they're wrong... just that I'm not as passionate about it then they are. Honestly, though it is amusing to hear someone call my thinking on the issue - sensitive though. Since I'm probably one of the least sensitive people i know in regards to this issue (from those that actually care about it). Although, I admit, once i get going I can start getting more sensitive as I think about it more and start discussing it.

Well first I apologize for the sensitive comment. Uncalled for.

For backgrounds, my mother's side is Turkish by way of Germany and my father is your basic nondescript white American. I just consider myself the average white guy. My wife is Mexican and I as well have a fairly culturally diverse circle of friends. Of relevant note, my daughter's godmother is an active member of one of the Pomo tribes. I've had this conversation with natives multiple times and usually the response is similar to yours... "it doesn't necessarily bother me". It just seems like a thing Natives think they are supposed to be offended by without having any actual personal feelings toward it. I'm just trying to understand that. At any rate, it's gone past the topic of the Warriors so probably best to discontinue the conversation (plus I have to run errands). I do appreciate your willingness to dialogue about it.

[azwfan]

Just so I understand, these things that aren't overtly racist or intentionally demeaning make you feel worse about yourself as a person?

No, I think it makes people lose respect for natives.
I am half white (ancestors from multiple european countries) and half native (from multiple tribes but member of Choctaw nation). Culturally, I grew up in east san jose, have an asian immigrant wife, most of my friends are either American Mexican (but also friends in Mexico) or asian (again - those that born and raised in the states, and those that are immigrants, and those that have never been to the states and live overseas). I would say I'm more American / Asian culturally, than anything to do with Native American (although i am making an effort to learn lately). I am probably not a good example of how natives feel about the issue. I do know natives that are much, MUCH, more passionate about it then I am - not that I think they're wrong... just that I'm not as passionate about it then they are. Honestly, though it is amusing to hear someone call my thinking on the issue - sensitive though. Since I'm probably one of the least sensitive people i know in regards to this issue (from those that actually care about it). Although, I admit, once i get going I can start getting more sensitive as I think about it more and start discussing it.

Well first I apologize for the sensitive comment. Uncalled for.

For backgrounds, my mother's side is Turkish by way of Germany and my father is your basic nondescript white American. I just consider myself the average white guy. My wife is Mexican and I as well have a fairly culturally diverse circle of friends. Of relevant note, my daughter's godmother is an active member of one of the Pomo tribes. I've had this conversation with natives multiple times and usually the response is similar to yours... "it doesn't necessarily bother me". It just seems like a thing Natives think they are supposed to be offended by without having any actual personal feelings toward it. I'm just trying to understand that. At any rate, it's gone past the topic of the Warriors so probably best to discontinue the conversation (plus I have to run errands). I do appreciate your willingness to dialogue about it.

Yeah, its more like to what degree is this bothering me?
Are there more important things to worry about? For sure.
But is this wrong, and should it be changed? Yes.

So... you won't see me marching in the streets on this issue like I have for various other causes. But I'm not going to sit back and say its not wrong and shouldn't be fixed either.

At any rate, take care, and likewise, I enjoyed the honest discussion.

[Scoots1994]

So 10% of the population is offended and you don't think you should change it? Of course you should. Why would you want to offend 10% of a population? LOL

The tomahawk chop is offensive (and more so just plain idiotic) to more than just Seminoles. If they took the stupid war chant and the chop out, it wouldn't be nearly as offensive - as I think I said originally (?). But just as a whole, naming a team after native tribes is just flat out dumb regardless of how many people are offended. Not sure why this is even a question.

Perhaps if you disagree, you can start a petition for our favorite basketball team to rename to the San Francisco Chinese. Our logo can be a picture of 2 chop sticks holding a dumpling, and when we want to get the crowd going we can have everyone grab their over-sized chop sticks and start signing some nonsensical stereotypical Chinese sounding chant. This is all in honor of the Chinese immigrants though so its all good. Ooooorrr...

We can leave well enough alone and use generic names or animal names that are specific to the area, offend no one and get back to sports. Hmm

A much higher % of the population than 10% is offended by the President (no matter who the president is), they should be cancelled?

The tomohawk chop is demeaning, I didn't say anything in support of it.

What if, in a team's history, it was made up of members of the tribe? Is it okay to keep the name then, even if there are no longer any members on the team?

So, what is the number we are allowed to have dislike something and not change it? We have an example that 10% against is enough for you to get rid of anything that offends 10% ... is 5% enough to do it? 1%? 1 person?

The 49ers, Packers, Steelers, Pirates, Buccaneers, Lakers, 76ers, etc are not named after animals and are not "generic" should they therefore be changed?

Redskins should be changed, the demeaning logos and chants should be discontinued, but fundamentally we can't do away with everything that offends anyone.

The speed limit offends me, and based on the speeds I see on the highway and around town it offends a large portion of the population, let's get rid of it!

[Scoots1994]

Once again...it is not for you or I to decide. The team owner needs to sit down with the people who feel offended, if any, and make a decision.

That's it. End of story. It's not hard

Yes, it's literally not in our power to make a decision on it. It's definitely something we can have an opinion on and that opinion is just as valid as the next person's. The idea that the claimant has sole authority to decide what is and is not offensive and what demands discussion is nonsense.

It is absolutely in our power to get a franchise to change their name. It's really easy and works 100% of the time ... but it's not going to happen.

If everybody stopped consuming the Washington Redskins product and when asked the team was told the name was the issue the name would be changed in a week.

[Scoots1994]

Yes, it's literally not in our power to make a decision on it. It's definitely something we can have an opinion on and that opinion is just as valid as the next person's. The idea that the claimant has sole authority to decide what is and is not offensive and what demands discussion is nonsense.

It is in our (all of us) power to a major extent. If a team sells no merch they will change the brand.

I disagree that everyone's opinions are of equal value, but I'm not sure that applies here. I think if something is CLEARLY offensive it should be changed. If there is debate then debate it, but I think often we jump to the conclusion without the discussion.

Well I think there is also a difference in overtly racist vs. offensive. Simply being offended by something doesn't entitle you to a special audience. Some people are offended by Nike's business practices, others by how a person wears their hair, language, flag burning, etc. We need to find a balance between appropriate consideration/action and frivolous virtue signaling.

This the point I was trying to make. If a business can be offensive to a lot of people but loved by enough to survive we should let them stay in business. There are a few TV shows that are perfect examples South Park, Rick and Morty, Jackass ... the majority of people think they are childish/worthless/offensive/demeaning/bad for society, but the people who loved them are enough to keep them going and we choose to accept that some people are going to be offended and most will just choose to not be consumers of their product.

[Scoots1994]

You think this hasn't been discussed before? This has been discussed for years. Native Americans have little to no political voice so props to Carmelo for using his voice to bring awareness. I remember seeing the Braves in the playoffs doing that stupid chant... when was that? Early 90's? I've been aware and irritated since then. Welcome to the party.

I didn't say it hasn't been discussed before. Every group without a huge amount of money and force of will have little to no political voice ... twas it ever thus.