OT: COVID-19 thread #3

[ThreeMileAllan]

This line of thinking, insults...

it amazes me that one of the biggest problems you seem to have is blatant ignoramuses being insulted. pick better fights

guilt to vote for blue who no matter who

another weird victimization hangup of yours. you are perfectly free to not see the enormous gulf between the impact that a joe biden presidency and a donald trump presidency would have. i mean, for god's sake, trump's handling of a freaking PANDEMIC has been atrocious. you're living through it right now! wake up! not to mention the generational damage done to the judicial system. unbelievable

as a progressive you somehow don't seem to have any concept of how far the nation has backslid over the past 4 years. and it will only get worse if trump is re-elected. which will only happen if myopic left-wingers like yourself in swing states continue not to recognize that 1 step forward is way better than 2 steps back. nope, you've gotta at least 2 steps forward. because 1 step forward is no better than 2 steps backward, right?

here is a graphic depiction of worldwide political parties:



the prominent blue circle is the american democratic party. the prominent red one is the american republican party. joe biden is squarely in line with the democratic party ideologically. the gap between biden and trump is WAY bigger than the gap between biden and bernie. which is why, wait for it...bernie sanders is trying to help joe biden get elected:

Watch on YouTube

bernie sanders knows the score. you refuse to even look at the scoreboard

i supported bernie and continue to. he is a very important voice in politics. and i think that biden is a bad candidate. but i'm not picking up my ball and going home because the significantly preferable choice didn't come out of the democratic primary. the stakes are way too high for that mindset

failing to realize the failings of the Obama era instead of declaring it the golden era

nobody said anything remotely like that, strawman. not a single person. you're delusional

i have personally repeatedly said that i found obama's eight years in office to be a disappointment. but beyond perhaps him not being cynical enough about birther party motives and intent to obstruct (most obstructionist congress in american history), i'm really not sure that he could have done much more. again, i think that very few democratic party presidents would have gotten what he did on healthcare

so stop with your compulsive practice of putting words in other people's mouth when you have absolutely no reason to believe that they feel that way, and indeed often have been directly told quite a different story

i honestly don't even think that you're bothering to absorb the comments that you are responding to

...is exactly why Trump won

that's such a blatantly terrible take. if you don't think that obama would have trounced trump then you're another trump university candidate

If you can't realize the key issues but instead keep preaching the greatness of a failed plan that enriched the sector and basically was falling apart

you continually fail to process information that is given to you on a silver platter

1) nobody said obamacare was great, strawman. this is at least the third time IN THIS VERY CONVERSATION that i've said that it doesn't go nearly far enough. clean out your ears

2) it has accomplished EXACTLY what it set out to do: expand health insurance to many millions more americans and assist many millions more with their expenses. if you think that's "failure", then you don't give a damn about the people that have been helped, including countless lives saved. which would make you a sociopath. something tells me that you wouldn't dare say what you're saying here to someone whose life was saved because they got health insurance for the first time in their lives due to the persistence of barack obama. to his political detriment...and that's another thing you've got ass-backward: you cling to this idea that the democratic party suffered at the polls because obamacare is a bad law. when in reality obama KNEW that by passing the first meaningful health reform in generations that it would cost him politically. because of fearmongering. his chief of staff rahm emanuel advised him to punt on healthcare reform when the going got tough. he pressed on. and lo and behold, it cost the democrats at the polls. yet, the more that people have recognized that obamacare didn't cause the problems that the birthers said it would, and indeed has been beneficial to many, it's popularity has risen

"thank god for the country, he didn't listen to me" - rahm emanuel, on obama pressing forward on healthcare reform in contrast to his advice

3) as already shown to you, the healthcare sector has not seen a long-term benefit from obamacare. it has largely continued on the same increasingly profitable path

4) obamacare was not "falling apart" when obama left office. far from it. and it has held up under constant attempts to undermine it over the past 3.5 years

by the way, it's highly disingenuous of you to try and argue that hillary wouldn't have been much better than trump, then proceeding to bash obamacare because trump has weakened it (which hillary surely would not have done)

Mainstream democrat polls don't prove anything.

wtf are you going on about? what is a "mainstream democrat poll"? are you suggesting that biden's huge lead in the polls right now is due to some liberal bias of polling companies? if so, horse****. exhibit A:

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/fox-news-poll-biden-leads-in-florida-as-trump-lags-among-seniors

i am SO tired of people ignorantly suggesting that polls are not to be believed based on the single data point of donald trump pulled an upset on election day in 2016. and it wasn't some huge upset. once again, he was up THREE points in the national polls going into election day. hillary won the popular vote by TWO points. the national polls were quite accurate, as they almost always are. it just so happens that the key swing state polls were not accurate "predictors." a conglomerate of polling companies studied what went wrong and determined that:

1) they over-represented the likelihood of college grads to vote
2) many trump voters did not reveal their preference prior to the election, whether that being because they were lukewarm on trump and embarrassed to tell a pollster that they supported him, or because they didn't decide until the last minute

13% of voters in WI, FL and PA made their decision in the last week. among such voters, in wisconsin they chose trump by 30 points over hillary. in FL and PA it was a 17 point gap

presumably on that first point the pollsters have made appropriate adjustments to their methodology. but obviously on the second point there are no adjustments to be made. because pollsters are not in the business of getting into the minds of undecided voters

and why do you not mention the countless elections where the polls are proven "correct"? i wonder...

And not understanding the progressive or independent mindset but forcing your agenda down their throat is why people are numb.

i fully understand the progressive mindset. i am one. a reasonable one. know what reasonable progressives like myself are numb about? those of us who have been paying attention to politics and fighting for change for way longer than bernie sanders has been running for president? it's the many bernie sanders supporters, who are largely intelligent, thoughtful people, completely ignoring the realities of american politics and instead continuing to suggest things like, for example:

1) it is obama's fault that we didn't get better health reform. even though he was the first president in generations to thread the needle and shepherd through major reform. and which bernie sanders likely would not have accomplished, leaving us worse off then we are now

2) that because hillary clinton was not a far left candidate and lost in 2016, surely no democrat can win if they're not far left. ignoring the fact that hillary got millions more votes than her opponent. ignoring the fact that barack obama won two contests by a total of 14.5 million votes. ignoring the fact that bill clinton won two contests by a total of 14 million votes. ignoring the fact that both dukakis and kerry were effectively smeared as "massachusetts liberals." ignoring the reality that more moderate democratic candidates have won the popular vote in 5 of the last 7 elections. and ignoring the reality that far left voters and independent voters are largely not after the same things

a candidate who appeals to independent voters is unlikely to appeal to far left voters. and independent voters are more plentiful in swing states than they are in states where far left voters reside (states that are already locked up). so what is the politically smart move when trying to win the presidency? try to appeal to independents even though that will turn off some progressives

Biden is stuck in yesteryear, pitching obamacare, not legalizing pot, hardly adopting anything from the progressive side.

perhaps you haven't been paying attention, but biden has endorsed a public option. the same public option that bernie sanders was advocating for a decade ago. biden will surely sign off on anything passed by a progressive democratic party controlled senate. just as bernie sanders would have. that's just reality. and biden will compromise to move the ball forward if necessary. unfortunately i don't see him getting that opportunity on health care if he is elected. because nothing major will get out of congress. it would be a minor miracle if a public option gets out of congress during a hypothetical biden presidency. "medicare for all" is a virtual impossibility. so whether biden would have pushed for M4A like bernie surely would have is irrelevant as a matter of practicality

it is truly astonishing that a person can be wrong about so many things in a single paragraph. exhausting

Dice, you are my hero for posting this. As a fellow progressive, the my way or the highway and outright divisive rhetoric coming from the Sanders camp over the last 5 years have done a ton of damage to the left. And no its not just bots, Bernie had divisive instigators like Briahna Joy Grey and David Sirota at the top of his campaign. That's a reflection on Bernie.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[dice]

This line of thinking, insults...

it amazes me that one of the biggest problems you seem to have is blatant ignoramuses being insulted. pick better fights

guilt to vote for blue who no matter who

another weird victimization hangup of yours. you are perfectly free to not see the enormous gulf between the impact that a joe biden presidency and a donald trump presidency would have. i mean, for god's sake, trump's handling of a freaking PANDEMIC has been atrocious. you're living through it right now! wake up! not to mention the generational damage done to the judicial system. unbelievable

as a progressive you somehow don't seem to have any concept of how far the nation has backslid over the past 4 years. and it will only get worse if trump is re-elected. which will only happen if myopic left-wingers like yourself in swing states continue not to recognize that 1 step forward is way better than 2 steps back. nope, you've gotta at least 2 steps forward. because 1 step forward is no better than 2 steps backward, right?

here is a graphic depiction of worldwide political parties:



the prominent blue circle is the american democratic party. the prominent red one is the american republican party. joe biden is squarely in line with the democratic party ideologically. the gap between biden and trump is WAY bigger than the gap between biden and bernie. which is why, wait for it...bernie sanders is trying to help joe biden get elected:

Watch on YouTube

bernie sanders knows the score. you refuse to even look at the scoreboard

i supported bernie and continue to. he is a very important voice in politics. and i think that biden is a bad candidate. but i'm not picking up my ball and going home because the significantly preferable choice didn't come out of the democratic primary. the stakes are way too high for that mindset

failing to realize the failings of the Obama era instead of declaring it the golden era

nobody said anything remotely like that, strawman. not a single person. you're delusional

i have personally repeatedly said that i found obama's eight years in office to be a disappointment. but beyond perhaps him not being cynical enough about birther party motives and intent to obstruct (most obstructionist congress in american history), i'm really not sure that he could have done much more. again, i think that very few democratic party presidents would have gotten what he did on healthcare

so stop with your compulsive practice of putting words in other people's mouth when you have absolutely no reason to believe that they feel that way, and indeed often have been directly told quite a different story

i honestly don't even think that you're bothering to absorb the comments that you are responding to

...is exactly why Trump won

that's such a blatantly terrible take. if you don't think that obama would have trounced trump then you're another trump university candidate

If you can't realize the key issues but instead keep preaching the greatness of a failed plan that enriched the sector and basically was falling apart

you continually fail to process information that is given to you on a silver platter

1) nobody said obamacare was great, strawman. this is at least the third time IN THIS VERY CONVERSATION that i've said that it doesn't go nearly far enough. clean out your ears

2) it has accomplished EXACTLY what it set out to do: expand health insurance to many millions more americans and assist many millions more with their expenses. if you think that's "failure", then you don't give a damn about the people that have been helped, including countless lives saved. which would make you a sociopath. something tells me that you wouldn't dare say what you're saying here to someone whose life was saved because they got health insurance for the first time in their lives due to the persistence of barack obama. to his political detriment...and that's another thing you've got ass-backward: you cling to this idea that the democratic party suffered at the polls because obamacare is a bad law. when in reality obama KNEW that by passing the first meaningful health reform in generations that it would cost him politically. because of fearmongering. his chief of staff rahm emanuel advised him to punt on healthcare reform when the going got tough. he pressed on. and lo and behold, it cost the democrats at the polls. yet, the more that people have recognized that obamacare didn't cause the problems that the birthers said it would, and indeed has been beneficial to many, it's popularity has risen

"thank god for the country, he didn't listen to me" - rahm emanuel, on obama pressing forward on healthcare reform in contrast to his advice

3) as already shown to you, the healthcare sector has not seen a long-term benefit from obamacare. it has largely continued on the same increasingly profitable path

4) obamacare was not "falling apart" when obama left office. far from it. and it has held up under constant attempts to undermine it over the past 3.5 years

by the way, it's highly disingenuous of you to try and argue that hillary wouldn't have been much better than trump, then proceeding to bash obamacare because trump has weakened it (which hillary surely would not have done)

Mainstream democrat polls don't prove anything.

wtf are you going on about? what is a "mainstream democrat poll"? are you suggesting that biden's huge lead in the polls right now is due to some liberal bias of polling companies? if so, horse****. exhibit A:

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/fox-news-poll-biden-leads-in-florida-as-trump-lags-among-seniors

i am SO tired of people ignorantly suggesting that polls are not to be believed based on the single data point of donald trump pulled an upset on election day in 2016. and it wasn't some huge upset. once again, he was up THREE points in the national polls going into election day. hillary won the popular vote by TWO points. the national polls were quite accurate, as they almost always are. it just so happens that the key swing state polls were not accurate "predictors." a conglomerate of polling companies studied what went wrong and determined that:

1) they over-represented the likelihood of college grads to vote
2) many trump voters did not reveal their preference prior to the election, whether that being because they were lukewarm on trump and embarrassed to tell a pollster that they supported him, or because they didn't decide until the last minute

13% of voters in WI, FL and PA made their decision in the last week. among such voters, in wisconsin they chose trump by 30 points over hillary. in FL and PA it was a 17 point gap

presumably on that first point the pollsters have made appropriate adjustments to their methodology. but obviously on the second point there are no adjustments to be made. because pollsters are not in the business of getting into the minds of undecided voters

and why do you not mention the countless elections where the polls are proven "correct"? i wonder...

And not understanding the progressive or independent mindset but forcing your agenda down their throat is why people are numb.

i fully understand the progressive mindset. i am one. a reasonable one. know what reasonable progressives like myself are numb about? those of us who have been paying attention to politics and fighting for change for way longer than bernie sanders has been running for president? it's the many bernie sanders supporters, who are largely intelligent, thoughtful people, completely ignoring the realities of american politics and instead continuing to suggest things like, for example:

1) it is obama's fault that we didn't get better health reform. even though he was the first president in generations to thread the needle and shepherd through major reform. and which bernie sanders likely would not have accomplished, leaving us worse off then we are now

2) that because hillary clinton was not a far left candidate and lost in 2016, surely no democrat can win if they're not far left. ignoring the fact that hillary got millions more votes than her opponent. ignoring the fact that barack obama won two contests by a total of 14.5 million votes. ignoring the fact that bill clinton won two contests by a total of 14 million votes. ignoring the fact that both dukakis and kerry were effectively smeared as "massachusetts liberals." ignoring the reality that more moderate democratic candidates have won the popular vote in 5 of the last 7 elections. and ignoring the reality that far left voters and independent voters are largely not after the same things

a candidate who appeals to independent voters is unlikely to appeal to far left voters. and independent voters are more plentiful in swing states than they are in states where far left voters reside (states that are already locked up). so what is the politically smart move when trying to win the presidency? try to appeal to independents even though that will turn off some progressives

Biden is stuck in yesteryear, pitching obamacare, not legalizing pot, hardly adopting anything from the progressive side.

perhaps you haven't been paying attention, but biden has endorsed a public option. the same public option that bernie sanders was advocating for a decade ago. biden will surely sign off on anything passed by a progressive democratic party controlled senate. just as bernie sanders would have. that's just reality. and biden will compromise to move the ball forward if necessary. unfortunately i don't see him getting that opportunity on health care if he is elected. because nothing major will get out of congress. it would be a minor miracle if a public option gets out of congress during a hypothetical biden presidency. "medicare for all" is a virtual impossibility. so whether biden would have pushed for M4A like bernie surely would have is irrelevant as a matter of practicality

it is truly astonishing that a person can be wrong about so many things in a single paragraph. exhausting

Dice, you are my hero for posting this. As a fellow progressive, the my way or the highway and outright divisive rhetoric coming from the Sanders camp over the last 5 years have done a ton of damage to the left. And no its not just bots, Bernie had divisive instigators like Briahna Joy Grey and David Sirota at the top of his campaign. That's a reflection on Bernie.

while i recognize that bernie engages in some of the same practices as other politicians, it's far less than most. so if we're going to rightfully point out his deficits, we need to keep them in perspective. bernie occasionally frustrates me as a politician (being hesitant to denounce castro, pandering by repeating the debunked notion that women don't get paid as much for the same work, etc), but i have a much bigger problem with a particular segment of his base

[dice]

Cases are surging across certain states in the South primarily due to the stupidity of Americans. The only country where it’s even controversial and somehow political to wear masks and social distance is the same one that had its citizens fighting over toilet paper at the onset of the pandemic.

yep

The Black Lives Matter protests definitely played a huge role in the spikes in cases, as anyone with a brain would realize that mass gatherings of thousands and thousands of people chanting, yelling, spitting and screaming like maniacs will spread respiratory droplets and viral particles everywhere.

you would think so, but it hasn't been shown to be the case. as evidenced by the cities where the marches were most prevalent not seeing spikes in cases. perhaps those thousands of people being outdoors (many wearing masks and social distancing) wasn't much if any worse than them being indoors. after all, if someone is willing to take that risk outdoors, maybe they'd also be willing to take that risk indoors

Obama was a total failure of a president

because he...saved the US auto industry while getting us out of the "great recession" that he was handed by the outgoing bush administration? gained health care access for over 10 million americans? got millions more assistance with their premiums? conducted himself with remarkable dignity in the fact of disgusting racist attacks against himself and his family? through tough sanctions negotiated a multi-national agreement for iran to end its nuclear program? got bin laden? got home 90% of our troops from iraq and afghanistan? reduced our embarrassing prison population by the most it had been reduced in 30 years? cut veteran homelessness in half? took action against predatory payday lenders and for-profit colleges? got syria to destroy thousands of tons of chemical weapons? successfully prosecuted lending companies who charged higher interest and fees to minorities? got broadband and internet access for lower-income rural families? expanded health coverage for children? was the first president since eisenhower to serve 2 terms with no major scandal?

Also hilarious lots of people who aren’t actual doctors/have zero medical education and know nothing about COVID-19 spouting off in this thread like they know about the virus.

see bold

[dice]

weakling. cool mask, though

[DuckIII]

weakling. cool mask, though

The irony (might not be the right word) is that to someone like me, he’s never looked more presidential. I think it’s a great photograph, albeit undermined by his own prior (and anticipated) conduct.

[musiqsoulchild]

weakling. cool mask, though

The irony (might not be the right word) is that to someone like me, he’s never looked more presidential. I think it’s a great photograph, albeit undermined by his own prior (and anticipated) conduct.

He could have won the election in a canter had he just handled Covid like the great Executive he claims to be

And handled black lives matter movements with justice and compassion.

Not particularly tough to do in either case.

[dougthonus]

He could have won the election in a canter had he just handled Covid like the great Executive he claims to be

And handled black lives matter movements with justice and compassion.

Not particularly tough to do in either case.

Trump's playbook is to divide as much as possible, and attract a greater percentage of his base than the democrats will get out of their base, because his base is more unified and easier for him to stay on point. He's not trying to bring people together and supporting BLM would hurt him with his base and gain him next to no one outside his base. From a political perspective, I don't think he would or should change a thing in terms of how it plays with his strategy and not in terms of my personal beliefs or desires.

Handling COVID better would have helped tremendously (obviously) because while he was trying to help the economy, he actually harmed it significantly. If he could go back in time, I'd imagine he'd do things radically differently knowing that the economy would have been much better off if he did.

[PlayerUp]

weakling. cool mask, though

All he had to do from Day 1. Set an example for the country even if the data at the time was inconclusive.

[TheStig]

He could have won the election in a canter had he just handled Covid like the great Executive he claims to be

And handled black lives matter movements with justice and compassion.

Not particularly tough to do in either case.

Trump's playbook is to divide as much as possible, and attract a greater percentage of his base than the democrats will get out of their base, because his base is more unified and easier for him to stay on point. He's not trying to bring people together and supporting BLM would hurt him with his base and gain him next to no one outside his base. From a political perspective, I don't think he would or should change a thing in terms of how it plays with his strategy and not in terms of my personal beliefs or desires.

Handling COVID better would have helped tremendously (obviously) because while he was trying to help the economy, he actually harmed it significantly. If he could go back in time, I'd imagine he'd do things radically differently knowing that the economy would have been much better off if he did.

I think Covid might be his downfall as I think most leaders will be picked apart for their response.

Before Covid, I thought this election was a slam dunk for him.

[dougthonus]

I think Covid might be his downfall as I think most leaders will be picked apart for their response.

Before Covid, I thought this election was a slam dunk for him.

I'm not sure how picked apart all leaders will be, but factually, the US has had the worst response of any first wold nation in the world. We have the most cases of anyone in raw numbers and per capita numbers. That's not 100% on Trump, clearly the attitude of the populace was part of the problem too, but stronger leadership would have definitely put us in a much better position than we are.

We were very slow as a response, we called it a hoax, we didn't ramp up testing or ppe, we used medicine as a political power move. There was a clear lack of caring of the American people and the actions we took were completely done for political reasons and not for public safety. The impact on the economy has been massive and much, much larger than it needed to be if we actually simply cared for the people which is the biggest irony, because our hope was to keep the economy going at the expense of health but we just lost out on both counts.

[TheStig]

I think Covid might be his downfall as I think most leaders will be picked apart for their response.

Before Covid, I thought this election was a slam dunk for him.

I'm not sure how picked apart all leaders will be, but factually, the US has had the worst response of any first wold nation in the world. We have the most cases of anyone in raw numbers and per capita numbers. That's not 100% on Trump, clearly the attitude of the populace was part of the problem too, but stronger leadership would have definitely put us in a much better position than we are.

We were very slow as a response, we called it a hoax, we didn't ramp up testing or ppe, we used medicine as a political power move. There was a clear lack of caring of the American people and the actions we took were completely done for political reasons and not for public safety. The impact on the economy has been massive and much, much larger than it needed to be if we actually simply cared for the people which is the biggest irony, because our hope was to keep the economy going at the expense of health but we just lost out on both counts.

I agree with you but it's been like this the last 20+ years. Is there an administration that actually would have made meaningful progress? The country is deeply divided and much of one half writes off the other. Any sort of meaningful progress starts with someone who can actually bring people together and have their respect. Thre is also a matter of the social safety nets being heavily geared toward business instead of the people.

[musiqsoulchild]

I think Covid might be his downfall as I think most leaders will be picked apart for their response.

Before Covid, I thought this election was a slam dunk for him.

I'm not sure how picked apart all leaders will be, but factually, the US has had the worst response of any first wold nation in the world. We have the most cases of anyone in raw numbers and per capita numbers. That's not 100% on Trump, clearly the attitude of the populace was part of the problem too, but stronger leadership would have definitely put us in a much better position than we are.

We were very slow as a response, we called it a hoax, we didn't ramp up testing or ppe, we used medicine as a political power move. There was a clear lack of caring of the American people and the actions we took were completely done for political reasons and not for public safety. The impact on the economy has been massive and much, much larger than it needed to be if we actually simply cared for the people which is the biggest irony, because our hope was to keep the economy going at the expense of health but we just lost out on both counts.

I agree with you but it's been like this the last 20+ years. Is there an administration that actually would have made meaningful progress? The country is deeply divided and much of one half writes off the other. Any sort of meaningful progress starts with someone who can actually bring people together and have their respect. Thre is also a matter of the social safety nets being heavily geared toward business instead of the people.

Err....Covid don't care.

It's going to kill any of us regardless of what you call yourself:

1) Democrat
2) Republican
3) Fake Progressive
4) Independent

I know at least 3 past Presidents in the last 30 years who could have managed this better.

Heck, Trump himself would have managed this better if he had focussed on Science and not Politics.

[Mech Engineer]

I think Covid might be his downfall as I think most leaders will be picked apart for their response.

Before Covid, I thought this election was a slam dunk for him.

I'm not sure how picked apart all leaders will be, but factually, the US has had the worst response of any first wold nation in the world. We have the most cases of anyone in raw numbers and per capita numbers. That's not 100% on Trump, clearly the attitude of the populace was part of the problem too, but stronger leadership would have definitely put us in a much better position than we are.

We were very slow as a response, we called it a hoax, we didn't ramp up testing or ppe, we used medicine as a political power move. There was a clear lack of caring of the American people and the actions we took were completely done for political reasons and not for public safety. The impact on the economy has been massive and much, much larger than it needed to be if we actually simply cared for the people which is the biggest irony, because our hope was to keep the economy going at the expense of health but we just lost out on both counts.

There is no doubt Trump and the federal government messed up in Feb/March when they could have contained this with some uniform policies throughout the country and avoided this nightmare extending into July. That said, memories are short. What if the pandemic is contained by September and the cases are low. It all depends on the death rates in Florida, Texas for the next few weeks. If that remains low and they have good news about a vaccine/medication like Remdesivir by September, it might turn out well for Trump.

Remember the job market is going to only get better if the above happens and people would be scared of change during that time.

[musiqsoulchild]

I think Covid might be his downfall as I think most leaders will be picked apart for their response.

Before Covid, I thought this election was a slam dunk for him.

I'm not sure how picked apart all leaders will be, but factually, the US has had the worst response of any first wold nation in the world. We have the most cases of anyone in raw numbers and per capita numbers. That's not 100% on Trump, clearly the attitude of the populace was part of the problem too, but stronger leadership would have definitely put us in a much better position than we are.

We were very slow as a response, we called it a hoax, we didn't ramp up testing or ppe, we used medicine as a political power move. There was a clear lack of caring of the American people and the actions we took were completely done for political reasons and not for public safety. The impact on the economy has been massive and much, much larger than it needed to be if we actually simply cared for the people which is the biggest irony, because our hope was to keep the economy going at the expense of health but we just lost out on both counts.

There is no doubt Trump and the federal government messed up in Feb/March when they could have contained this with some uniform policies throughout the country and avoided this nightmare extending into July. That said, memories are short. What if the pandemic is contained by September and the cases are low. It all depends on the death rates in Florida, Texas for the next few weeks. If that remains low and they have good news about a vaccine/medication like Remdesivir by September, it might not turn out well for Trump.

Remember the job market is going to only get better if the above happens and people would be scared of change during that time.

So far, Trump has been doing this to himself.

Without a campaign to speak of Joe Biden is leading by double digits.

If you're right- and I hope you are - we get a vaccine by Septmwber, the campaign will kick in by then.

Trump will have to actually answer to American people on TV. Unlike his fake news conferences now where he can hide behind Kayley and Kellyanne.

[dougthonus]

I agree with you but it's been like this the last 20+ years. Is there an administration that actually would have made meaningful progress? The country is deeply divided and much of one half writes off the other. Any sort of meaningful progress starts with someone who can actually bring people together and have their respect. Thre is also a matter of the social safety nets being heavily geared toward business instead of the people.

Subjectively, I believe Trump has divided people more than any other president in my lifetime, so yes, the parties have never been aligned, but I think their differences are much larger now at least in terms of presidential candidates. I'm not sure that's really true in congress.

[TheStig]

I agree with you but it's been like this the last 20+ years. Is there an administration that actually would have made meaningful progress? The country is deeply divided and much of one half writes off the other. Any sort of meaningful progress starts with someone who can actually bring people together and have their respect. Thre is also a matter of the social safety nets being heavily geared toward business instead of the people.

Subjectively, I believe Trump has divided people more than any other president in my lifetime, so yes, the parties have never been aligned, but I think their differences are much larger now at least in terms of presidential candidates. I'm not sure that's really true in congress.

I agree Trump is the most divisive President but Congress has been divided since Newt's days. A big divide. So many little things they can do to make peoples lives better.

There are only a few landmark things passed over the last 20 years:
Bush Tax Act
Patriot Act
Iraq War
Obamacare
Trump tax plan
Cares Act

Congress is very divisive and ineffective.

Before someone comes in and says soooo many more things were passed. I'm talking about big big big things.

[dice]

I agree with you but it's been like this the last 20+ years. Is there an administration that actually would have made meaningful progress? The country is deeply divided and much of one half writes off the other. Any sort of meaningful progress starts with someone who can actually bring people together and have their respect. Thre is also a matter of the social safety nets being heavily geared toward business instead of the people.

Subjectively, I believe Trump has divided people more than any other president in my lifetime, so yes, the parties have never been aligned, but I think their differences are much larger now at least in terms of presidential candidates. I'm not sure that's really true in congress.

I agree Trump is the most divisive President but Congress has been divided since Newt's days. A big divide.

yep. newt was a turning point in terms of compromise/political discourse. members of congress used to socialize both for work and pleasure across party lines. no longer. additionally, in the computer age they have found more and more effective methods of gerrymandering, creating more polarized congressional districts and thus a more polarized nation. many if not most house reps are more concerned with a primary challenge from the extreme wing of their party than they are with their general election opponent

congress set a record for polarization with the 2013-2014 congress. and it's only gotten more divided since:

https://grist.org/politics/asymmetrical-polarization-the-lefts-gone-left-but-the-rights-gone-nuts/

here you can select any congress in US history, click on any dot in the ideology graph or any senator below it and bring up every vote they took during that 2 year period

https://voteview.com/congress/senate

[dice]

I'm not sure how picked apart all leaders will be, but factually, the US has had the worst response of any first wold nation in the world. We have the most cases of anyone in raw numbers and per capita numbers. That's not 100% on Trump, clearly the attitude of the populace was part of the problem too, but stronger leadership would have definitely put us in a much better position than we are.

We were very slow as a response, we called it a hoax, we didn't ramp up testing or ppe, we used medicine as a political power move. There was a clear lack of caring of the American people and the actions we took were completely done for political reasons and not for public safety. The impact on the economy has been massive and much, much larger than it needed to be if we actually simply cared for the people which is the biggest irony, because our hope was to keep the economy going at the expense of health but we just lost out on both counts.

I agree with you but it's been like this the last 20+ years. Is there an administration that actually would have made meaningful progress? The country is deeply divided and much of one half writes off the other. Any sort of meaningful progress starts with someone who can actually bring people together and have their respect. Thre is also a matter of the social safety nets being heavily geared toward business instead of the people.

Err....Covid don't care.

It's going to kill any of us regardless of what you call yourself:

1) Democrat
2) Republican
3) Fake Progressive
4) Independent

I know at least 3 past Presidents in the last 30 years who could have managed this better.

Heck, Trump himself would have managed this better if he had focussed on Science and not Politics.

every president in any of our lifetimes would have managed this better. but it's also true that the right wing was destined to politicize the pandemic. i think it's very likely that we would have seen a spike in cases over the last month in all the same places regardless of who was in the oval office. hell, it may have been even worse in terms of the backlash against perceived government overreach had an engaged democrat been in office. can you imagine obama interrupting TV programming on a daily basis to do measured press conferences a lo cuomo? how would the birthers have reacted to that? "i ain't sittin' at home watchin' THIS guy tell me what to do! i'm goin' out, and i'm not wearin' a damn commie mask!"

[dice]

so how 'bout at least freezing tuition increases for this year, haaaaaahvad?

university endowment: $40.9 billion
2020 budget: $4.5 billion
2019 tuition: $1.1 billion
2020 tuition increase: $0.044 billion ($1900 per student)

next largest endowments:

30.3 yale
27ish stanford
24.7 princeton

17.4 MIT

meanwhile...people whose net worths have shot up this year:

jeff bezos - from $116 bil to $190 bil
elon musk - from $28 bil to $65 bil
mac bezos - from $37 bil to $63 bil (good thing she didn't sell stock in her ex's company!)
ballmer - from $58 bil to $77 bil
eric yuan - from $3 bil to $15 bil (zoom CEO)

also, a U of georgia study finds that people are more concerned about their finances than their health when it comes to taking precautions against the virus

[dice]

speaking of harvard, their global health institute came up with target numbers for daily testing based on current conditions for each state. here are the states ranked by how much they are testing as a percentage of daily target:

over 100 - HA/AK/VT/CT/ME/NJ/WV/KS/NY/MA/DC/WY/IL/MT/MI

83 MN
79 ND
76 OK
74 NH
66 PA
65 IA
62 MO/RI
61 NM
58 OR
55 DE
53 MD/ID
50 KY
49 WA
47 WI/VA
44 OH
43 NC/SD
41 NE
40 CO
39 LA
38 CA
34 IN
33 UT
32 AK
29 TN
24 SC/NV
21 MS
19 TX
14 FL
9 AZ