Democratic Primary Thread: The Deuce

[Clyde_Style]

Policy? Hilarious. Read the room Wingo. Nobody cares about that.

That's because we're such a bunch of amoral neo-liberal hustlers who only care about winning, yadda yadda yadda

"Hey Heinrich, aren't you worried about this guy Hitler turning our political system into a dictatorship? We've got to stop him."

"Dammit Wilhelm, you bourgeois Weimar fuddy duddy! Will you shut up about defeating him so we can raise the beer tax to pay for more orphanages!"

[j4remi]

It's interesting that you bring up Bitecofer's analysis and the Lincoln Project, since she is on the board for the Lincoln Project and a strategist for them. She's also a huge admirer of Rick Wilson and doesn't hide it in the slightest.

I still haven't seen what the risk is here. It's a move that can potentially add voters, and doesn't really run a risk of taking any away. It's not like Kasich now gets to shape the platform or be a member of task forces. He won't even bring up policy.

He's just a familiar voice to a group of voters who would mortally wound Trump.

I don't think anyone is pretending that we're all the same party now, or that this is a long term alliance.

Bitcofer's involvement doesn't change a) her theory about how voters vote (ie: left votes left or stays home and vice versa for right)

I think this is debatable. There has been clear statistical movement of people who identify as Republican leaving Trump and declaring themselves as Biden voters this time around. Rachel herself said that there are more persuadable R's right now than her model accounted for in February. Of course, it took a horrendously managed pandemic, racial riots in the streets, and a Trump resorting to outright facism to make it happen. Either way, there is an opportunity this time around to activate voters who wouldn't normally vote for you, and it comes at no political risk. Why pass that up?

or b) the Bush administration members that are using it to regain footholds politically after they wielded political influence in a disastrous manner.

Read on Twitter

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As far as these guys pasts, I don't care. They know how to win elections, and that is all that matters IMO.

Well I wasn't aiming to convince you that Kasich is risky, idk if you read past the part you zeroed in on but I specifically closed out by saying Kasich's one of the few guys I think is actually a decent individual.

Oh man, don't let Wingy hear you say that

That's why I shifted to speaking on the risks of the Lincoln Project taking donations from more worthwhile endeavors.

As long as they are fighting Trump, their endeavor is as worthwhile as anyone else.

What do we tangibly have to point to that says it's not the same party? Beyond rhetoric we have the same power players that were wheeling and dealing in the 90's. That's not to say they won't be different, but is there an actual action that you think proves this is a new guard? Because they've kinda sucked at the Congressional level and Biden's got one actual bold proposal with the rest being incremental steps from the last platform (actually unless he moved on it, I'm pretty sure Hillary's Medicare expansion was bigger).

When I say "the same party", I meant Kasich Republicans and Dems.

If you are saying that the Dems now are the same party they were 8 years ago, we could have a debate about that. It doesn't really matter though, because it's what Primary voters cast their ballots for. There is of course nuance to that, but a clear choice was made.

So wherever Joe ends up, that's where we'll be until the political math of the situation dictates otherwise. I think he's moved left from where he started though.

Oh for sure this is all great short term, win this one election stuff. I'm not denying any of that. But I think it's short sighted to say "cool, enemy of my enemy now and we can figure the rest out later" about these particular human beings. You don't feel that way which I can respect, especially given the unique circumstance that is Trump.

My issues with the friendliness with Republicans comes moreso from enabling the actual competent ones back into any kind of influential roles and what that can mean in the future. As the discussion has moved toward what the Republicans do after they lose, I can tell you what group of advisors I can absolutely picture swinging in to help the party realign and those dudes did some really foul ish that shouldn't be overlooked just because Trump is bad. I think we've got Trump beat without hyping the Lincoln Project.

And as for whether or not this is the same party, we don't gotta debate that. I'm agnostic on it anyway.

[Pointgod]

Post-Trump GOP will either dig itself further into the ground by pandering to the Trump base or they will attempt to chart a long-term strategy to rebuild their relevance and that could take a decade or more if they succeeded.

The GOP veered so hard into the narrow lane of corrupt power mongering there may be too many creeps still in office for the next 2-4 years for the party to unify and re-set its course.

I suspect the GOP may never regain full power again. If they fail to show any potential to run the show in the next 6-8 years I'd expect a strong defection to some kind of libertarian third party that will attempt to pull conservative leaning Democrats and independents into its wake.

Well if Democrats get control of all three branches of government they better pass a slew of reforms that will make the GOP all but irrelevant unless they severely shift back to the realm of reality and sane people.

That and anti-fascist measures that restore the checks and balances away from executive privilege

More voter protections and giving people the day off to vote

It also requires state legislatures to go blue and to undo the gerrymandering BS

And true campaign finance reform especially so the Putins of world can't use the NRA to buy a country like he did. Who do people think held McConnell's purse strings?

Nobody seems to think about it, talk about it or even care, but I hope Biden and congress does. Joe's message to Putin today gave me wood. I hope that resolve translates into legislation that cuts out corporate puppet masters and truly invigorates real democracy

All that is exactly what I was talking about. The only reason the GOP wins is that they cheat. The Democratic Party’s problem is that they’re horrible at turnout especially in the non election years. Voting should be simple, accessible and safe. Restoring the voting rights act, restoring voting rights to felons and making vote by mail the law will force Republicans to play fair.

[HarthorneWingo]

If you want to suggest let's use them as a means to an end in this election, sure, totally understandable. but you'll have to spare me the whole these guys are patriotic heroes stuff because I don't trust a snake

What could Kasich conceivably say about anything that matters to Democrats? That he hates Trump? Wow, thanks. After that, what is there? Name me one policy that he could speak to that matters to us? He's not just some benign politician. He was the destructive governor of Ohio.

Policy? Hilarious. Read the room Wingo. Nobody cares about that.

During a pandemic without universal healthcare, while facing climate change catastrophe, and nationwide protests over police abuse and corruption. Yes, let's have John Kasich speak! And then maybe even Mitt Romney. I guess they can speak on abortion and fiscal conservatism.

[robillionaire]

What could Kasich conceivably say about anything that matters to Democrats? That he hates Trump? Wow, thanks. After that, what is there? Name me one policy that he could speak to that matters to us? He's not just some benign politician. He was the destructive governor of Ohio.

Policy? Hilarious. Read the room Wingo. Nobody cares about that.

During a pandemic without universal healthcare, while facing climate change catastrophe, and nationwide protests over police abuse and corruption. Yes, let's have John Kasich speak! And then maybe even Mitt Romney. I guess they can speak on abortion and fiscal conservatism.

I think people forget exactly how bad a george w bush presidency can be. the world will likely not survive another one. and now these are the ones considered moderate... yikes

[Clyde_Style]

I think this is debatable. There has been clear statistical movement of people who identify as Republican leaving Trump and declaring themselves as Biden voters this time around. Rachel herself said that there are more persuadable R's right now than her model accounted for in February. Of course, it took a horrendously managed pandemic, racial riots in the streets, and a Trump resorting to outright facism to make it happen. Either way, there is an opportunity this time around to activate voters who wouldn't normally vote for you, and it comes at no political risk. Why pass that up?

or b) the Bush administration members that are using it to regain footholds politically after they wielded political influence in a disastrous manner.

Read on Twitter

?s=20

As far as these guys pasts, I don't care. They know how to win elections, and that is all that matters IMO.

Well I wasn't aiming to convince you that Kasich is risky, idk if you read past the part you zeroed in on but I specifically closed out by saying Kasich's one of the few guys I think is actually a decent individual.

Oh man, don't let Wingy hear you say that

That's why I shifted to speaking on the risks of the Lincoln Project taking donations from more worthwhile endeavors.

As long as they are fighting Trump, their endeavor is as worthwhile as anyone else.

What do we tangibly have to point to that says it's not the same party? Beyond rhetoric we have the same power players that were wheeling and dealing in the 90's. That's not to say they won't be different, but is there an actual action that you think proves this is a new guard? Because they've kinda sucked at the Congressional level and Biden's got one actual bold proposal with the rest being incremental steps from the last platform (actually unless he moved on it, I'm pretty sure Hillary's Medicare expansion was bigger).

When I say "the same party", I meant Kasich Republicans and Dems.

If you are saying that the Dems now are the same party they were 8 years ago, we could have a debate about that. It doesn't really matter though, because it's what Primary voters cast their ballots for. There is of course nuance to that, but a clear choice was made.

So wherever Joe ends up, that's where we'll be until the political math of the situation dictates otherwise. I think he's moved left from where he started though.

Oh for sure this is all great short term, win this one election stuff. I'm not denying any of that. But I think it's short sighted to say "cool, enemy of my enemy now and we can figure the rest out later" about these particular human beings. You don't feel that way which I can respect, especially given the unique circumstance that is Trump.

My issues with the friendliness with Republicans comes moreso from enabling the actual competent ones back into any kind of influential roles and what that can mean in the future. As the discussion has moved toward what the Republicans do after they lose, I can tell you what group of advisors I can absolutely picture swinging in to help the party realign and those dudes did some really foul ish that shouldn't be overlooked just because Trump is bad. I think we've got Trump beat without hyping the Lincoln Project.

And as for whether or not this is the same party, we don't gotta debate that. I'm agnostic on it anyway.

Giving credit where credit is due, the Lincoln Project got so deep inside Trump's brain they basically engineered the firing of his campaign manager and Facebook guru with their Brad Parscale ad.

Trump's decision to install Bill Stepchild doesn't seem to have helped one bit. Trump thought tangling with Chris Wallace was a good idea so evidently nobody with any sense has any sway over him.

I support that kind of mind fckery. It is working gangbusters. Trump is evil, clinically insane and easily triggered. So, yes, it devils vs. devils in support of defeating Trump. I say keep up the good work you evil bastards.

[Clyde_Style]

Policy? Hilarious. Read the room Wingo. Nobody cares about that.

During a pandemic without universal healthcare, while facing climate change catastrophe, and nationwide protests over police abuse and corruption. Yes, let's have John Kasich speak! And then maybe even Mitt Romney. I guess they can speak on abortion and fiscal conservatism.

I think people forget exactly how bad a george w bush presidency can be. the world will likely not survive another one. and now these are the ones considered moderate... yikes

GWB was an evil cckskr. Even the Trump era can't make Bush and Cheney moderates

[Clyde_Style]

Well if Democrats get control of all three branches of government they better pass a slew of reforms that will make the GOP all but irrelevant unless they severely shift back to the realm of reality and sane people.

That and anti-fascist measures that restore the checks and balances away from executive privilege

More voter protections and giving people the day off to vote

It also requires state legislatures to go blue and to undo the gerrymandering BS

And true campaign finance reform especially so the Putins of world can't use the NRA to buy a country like he did. Who do people think held McConnell's purse strings?

Nobody seems to think about it, talk about it or even care, but I hope Biden and congress does. Joe's message to Putin today gave me wood. I hope that resolve translates into legislation that cuts out corporate puppet masters and truly invigorates real democracy

All that is exactly what I was talking about. The only reason the GOP wins is that they cheat. The Democratic Party’s problem is that they’re horrible at turnout especially in the non election years. Voting should be simple, accessible and safe. Restoring the voting rights act, restoring voting rights to felons and making vote by mail the law will force Republicans to play fair.

Yes, winning elections without an actual majority has to stop. It can be fixed though

[Clyde_Style]

I think this is debatable. There has been clear statistical movement of people who identify as Republican leaving Trump and declaring themselves as Biden voters this time around. Rachel herself said that there are more persuadable R's right now than her model accounted for in February. Of course, it took a horrendously managed pandemic, racial riots in the streets, and a Trump resorting to outright facism to make it happen. Either way, there is an opportunity this time around to activate voters who wouldn't normally vote for you, and it comes at no political risk. Why pass that up?

or b) the Bush administration members that are using it to regain footholds politically after they wielded political influence in a disastrous manner.

Read on Twitter

?s=20

As far as these guys pasts, I don't care. They know how to win elections, and that is all that matters IMO.

Well I wasn't aiming to convince you that Kasich is risky, idk if you read past the part you zeroed in on but I specifically closed out by saying Kasich's one of the few guys I think is actually a decent individual.

Oh man, don't let Wingy hear you say that

That's why I shifted to speaking on the risks of the Lincoln Project taking donations from more worthwhile endeavors.

As long as they are fighting Trump, their endeavor is as worthwhile as anyone else.

What do we tangibly have to point to that says it's not the same party? Beyond rhetoric we have the same power players that were wheeling and dealing in the 90's. That's not to say they won't be different, but is there an actual action that you think proves this is a new guard? Because they've kinda sucked at the Congressional level and Biden's got one actual bold proposal with the rest being incremental steps from the last platform (actually unless he moved on it, I'm pretty sure Hillary's Medicare expansion was bigger).

When I say "the same party", I meant Kasich Republicans and Dems.

If you are saying that the Dems now are the same party they were 8 years ago, we could have a debate about that. It doesn't really matter though, because it's what Primary voters cast their ballots for. There is of course nuance to that, but a clear choice was made.

So wherever Joe ends up, that's where we'll be until the political math of the situation dictates otherwise. I think he's moved left from where he started though.

Oh for sure this is all great short term, win this one election stuff. I'm not denying any of that. But I think it's short sighted to say "cool, enemy of my enemy now and we can figure the rest out later" about these particular human beings. You don't feel that way which I can respect, especially given the unique circumstance that is Trump.

My issues with the friendliness with Republicans comes moreso from enabling the actual competent ones back into any kind of influential roles and what that can mean in the future. As the discussion has moved toward what the Republicans do after they lose, I can tell you what group of advisors I can absolutely picture swinging in to help the party realign and those dudes did some really foul ish that shouldn't be overlooked just because Trump is bad. I think we've got Trump beat without hyping the Lincoln Project.

And as for whether or not this is the same party, we don't gotta debate that. I'm agnostic on it anyway.

The primary legacy effect I see is those who work to defeat Trump will be setting themselves up to appear like the reasonable ones post-Trump.

Does that mean collaborating with the opposition now assists them in gaining more credibility in the future?

Perhaps, but to whom exactly does that make them more credible to?

TBH, I think the prospects of future GOP candidates will be more heavily influenced by their party's agenda and persona than each candidate's resume (which goes back to the speculation on what tack the GOP takes in the future, i.e. doubling down or rebooting).

So I don't really think it will hurt anyone on the Dem side of the ledger to have this brief association. Enemy of my enemy is my friend is a part of politics anyway and always has been.

And I certainly don't believe it has any effect on future policies.

If anything, it may pull some mercenaries into the Democratic party's fold, but the Democrats have needed to up their game for a while now so I'm not sure how that would be bad for them.

[HarthorneWingo]

Michael Brook's last video.

Watch on YouTube

[j4remi]

I'm completely heartbroken and devastated. Michael Brook has passed away.

This is an absolute kick in the teeth. Brooks legitimately changed the way i view things and led me toward a lot of new ideas and lessons. Then I got to meet him a few times and he was cool as hell, super humble and genuine. The community that formed around TMBS is truly special; I've met so many dope ass people because of it. He was legitimately influential and supportive about it, it really really sucks to see him go.

I think he bodied this event...

Watch on YouTube

He was a major voice for the Lula livre movement for American representation, introduced me to it and this was a shining moment for the dude. Right after Lula was finally freed.

Watch on YouTube

His sense of humor and impersonation game was pretty damned great too.
[youtube]

Read on Twitter

?s=20[/youtube]

If you didn't get to appreciate his work while he was alive, I def implore you to check out some of his work now. His Illicit History series would be a great start or even just some of his funnier moments. Dude was a major presence for the left and it felt like he was on the verge of really blowing up too.

[HarthorneWingo]

I'm completely heartbroken and devastated. Michael Brook has passed away.

This is an absolute kick in the teeth. Brooks legitimately changed the way i view things and led me toward a lot of new ideas and lessons. Then I got to meet him a few times and he was cool as hell, super humble and genuine. The community that formed around TMBS is truly special; I've met so many dope ass people because of it. He was legitimately influential and supportive about it, it really really sucks to see him go.

I think he bodied this event...

Watch on YouTube

He was a major voice for the Lula livre movement for American representation, introduced me to it and this was a shining moment for the dude. Right after Lula was finally freed.

Watch on YouTube

His sense of humor and impersonation game was pretty damned great too.
[youtube]

Read on Twitter

?s=20[/youtube]

If you didn't get to appreciate his work while he was alive, I def implore you to check out some of his work now. His Illicit History series would be a great start or even just some of his funnier moments. Dude was a major presence for the left and it felt like he was on the verge of really blowing up too.

I always want to hit one of his live shows and I was hoping to eventually follow up with him and Sam over my case. I never met the man and yet I feel like a lost a dear friend. Everyone is going on about what a genuinely nice man he was and how he went out of his way to help them. I still can't stop crying.

Watch on YouTube

[robillionaire]

I'd actually never heard of him. But he apparently was a good guy and I hate to hear this happened. I am curious as to how he died

[HarthorneWingo]

I'd actually never heard of him. But he apparently was a good guy and I hate to hear this happened. I am curious as to how he died

I read that it was a stroke. 37 years old and just getting started. He interviewed so many great minds/politicians like Noam Chomsky, Bernie Sanders, Dr. Cornell West, and Prof. Adolf Reed just to name a few. Go to TMBS (The Michael Brooks Show) on YouTube and check out his videos. He's particularly well versed on international politics. He really knows his shyt in that area. South America in particular. He's done a number of shows with Ana Kasparian.

[robillionaire]

I'd actually never heard of him. But he apparently was a good guy and I hate to hear this happened. I am curious as to how he died

I read that it was a stroke. 37 years old and just getting started. He interviewed so many great minds/politicians like Noam Chomsky, Bernie Sanders, Dr. Cornell West, and Prof. Adolf Reed just to name a few. Go to TMBS (The Michael Brooks Show) on YouTube and check out his videos. He's particularly well versed on international politics. He really knows his shyt in that area. South America in particular. He's done a number of shows with Ana Kasparian.

wonder if corona was a factor in it, that's pretty young. shame that this happens to some of the best of us while henry kissinger still draws breath

[HarthorneWingo]

I'd actually never heard of him. But he apparently was a good guy and I hate to hear this happened. I am curious as to how he died

I read that it was a stroke. 37 years old and just getting started. He interviewed so many great minds/politicians like Noam Chomsky, Bernie Sanders, Dr. Cornell West, and Prof. Adolf Reed just to name a few. Go to TMBS (The Michael Brooks Show) on YouTube and check out his videos. He's particularly well versed on international politics. He really knows his shyt in that area. South America in particular. He's done a number of shows with Ana Kasparian.

wonder if corona was a factor in it, that's pretty young. shame that this happens to some of the best of us while henry kissinger still draws breath

I posted a segment from his last show, above, and he seemed fine. He's been on Sam's show on and off each week during COVID and never mentioned any symptoms. I'd be surprised if that was it but I guess we get more info in the coming days.

[Clyde_Style]

UPDATE: Murder of Judge's son was probably unrelated to the Epstein-Deutsche Bank case. Assailant had a beef with the judge over other matters going back at least 5 years.

[HarthorneWingo]

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[GONYK]

I think this is debatable. There has been clear statistical movement of people who identify as Republican leaving Trump and declaring themselves as Biden voters this time around. Rachel herself said that there are more persuadable R's right now than her model accounted for in February. Of course, it took a horrendously managed pandemic, racial riots in the streets, and a Trump resorting to outright facism to make it happen. Either way, there is an opportunity this time around to activate voters who wouldn't normally vote for you, and it comes at no political risk. Why pass that up?

or b) the Bush administration members that are using it to regain footholds politically after they wielded political influence in a disastrous manner.

Read on Twitter

?s=20

As far as these guys pasts, I don't care. They know how to win elections, and that is all that matters IMO.

Well I wasn't aiming to convince you that Kasich is risky, idk if you read past the part you zeroed in on but I specifically closed out by saying Kasich's one of the few guys I think is actually a decent individual.

Oh man, don't let Wingy hear you say that

That's why I shifted to speaking on the risks of the Lincoln Project taking donations from more worthwhile endeavors.

As long as they are fighting Trump, their endeavor is as worthwhile as anyone else.

What do we tangibly have to point to that says it's not the same party? Beyond rhetoric we have the same power players that were wheeling and dealing in the 90's. That's not to say they won't be different, but is there an actual action that you think proves this is a new guard? Because they've kinda sucked at the Congressional level and Biden's got one actual bold proposal with the rest being incremental steps from the last platform (actually unless he moved on it, I'm pretty sure Hillary's Medicare expansion was bigger).

When I say "the same party", I meant Kasich Republicans and Dems.

If you are saying that the Dems now are the same party they were 8 years ago, we could have a debate about that. It doesn't really matter though, because it's what Primary voters cast their ballots for. There is of course nuance to that, but a clear choice was made.

So wherever Joe ends up, that's where we'll be until the political math of the situation dictates otherwise. I think he's moved left from where he started though.

Oh for sure this is all great short term, win this one election stuff. I'm not denying any of that. But I think it's short sighted to say "cool, enemy of my enemy now and we can figure the rest out later" about these particular human beings. You don't feel that way which I can respect, especially given the unique circumstance that is Trump.

My issues with the friendliness with Republicans comes moreso from enabling the actual competent ones back into any kind of influential roles and what that can mean in the future. As the discussion has moved toward what the Republicans do after they lose, I can tell you what group of advisors I can absolutely picture swinging in to help the party realign and those dudes did some really foul ish that shouldn't be overlooked just because Trump is bad. I think we've got Trump beat without hyping the Lincoln Project.

And as for whether or not this is the same party, we don't gotta debate that. I'm agnostic on it anyway.

Ah, this is the real concern. I admit, that is a legitimate one, though I think it applies more to the LP folks than it does Kasich.

All politics are transactional, so I have no doubts that everyone is jockeying for position in whatever the new world order of Republican politics will be. I also agree that the Dems may be giving them the cover of credibility here as well.

I can respect that apprehension. At the end of the day, you're right about me. I think 4 more years of Trump is basically the death of the American experiment. I can't plan the next 4 years and beyond, politically speaking, when the house is burning down around me. So I'm willing to work with whoever.

Will that cost us down the line? Perhaps. But I'd rather have a "down the line" than not.

[GONYK]

Post-Trump GOP will either dig itself further into the ground by pandering to the Trump base or they will attempt to chart a long-term strategy to rebuild their relevance and that could take a decade or more if they succeeded.

The GOP veered so hard into the narrow lane of corrupt power mongering there may be too many creeps still in office for the next 2-4 years for the party to unify and re-set its course.

I suspect the GOP may never regain full power again. If they fail to show any potential to run the show in the next 6-8 years I'd expect a strong defection to some kind of libertarian third party that will attempt to pull conservative leaning Democrats and independents into its wake.

I think they are hoping Trump loses, so they can remake themselves as the party of Romney (again).

I would love to think they are headed for a wilderness period, but I don't think that is true. The country to too divided, and the battle lines will be redrawn once we exorcise the cancer that is Trump. Republicans will be back relatively quickly, IMO. They are better at local and state levels.

That being said, there may be a slim opportunity for some veneer of civility to return to our government. Hopefully, the Trump enablers will all be flushed out, and there will be more pragmatism over tribalism.

I do think that they are hoping Trump loses so they can remake themselves the party of Romney but the problem is that they already let the cat out of the bag so to say and their voters who have now morphed into a full on cult of worshipping trump won't be so eager to let that happen. If you'll recall, many of the establishment republicans did not want trump to win in 2016. They didn't realize what their own voting base consisted of.

This is correct. Republicans do have a deplorable problem.

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