sunsbg wrote:Bol Bol would have been a nice backup 4/5. Clearly a better player than Diallo in both O and D.
Nope.
He is neither a Center nor a PF. Not even a pure SF. He's a guard and I've been telling it since the Draft. The tallest guard this game ever saw. Nobody trusted me, of course. Excepting Malone, apparently.
Before signing for PHX, in the Spanish thread we wrote wich team each one of us wanted for Ricky I said Denver. The idea of combining the talents of The Golden Boy, The Joker and Bol Bol got me hard.
The Ricky-bol-bol-ball!
But I'm happy he's here.
Hope he can play against Utah, even with limited minutes. Apparently, the COVID didn't hurt him bad... he said he just feel he lacks training and conditioning.
-I tell them: Gentlemen you desist. Your differences are bussiness of your own. We all must care this Refuge's harmony and decorum -What if they don't listen? -I kill them and throw them into the sea
I don't think anyone doubts the line-up's impact. My only fear with running with the Rubio, Booker, Bridges, Oubre, Ayton line-up as our starters is that teams tend to start bigger, and we'd have trouble matching up against the physicality of guys like AD, Giannis, Pascal, Griffin, etc. that start out next to centers. They're a tough match-up regardless, but we don't want to start in a hole either. I'm open to giving it a shot, I'd just like to have a back-up plan too.
Oubre's future will be interesting to see play out. Our main line-up's statistical success suggests that depth/missing players was our main issue. Depth at point guard and scoring off the bench are the glaring roster weaknesses. Guys like Jordan Clarkson, Goran Dragic, Jeff Teague, and DJ Augustin are proven free agents that could fill that role without breaking the bank, and our draft pick should be on the table as well for the right fit. I don't think we could justify not paying Oubre whatever it takes to keep him if that line-up's success translates to next year, the team solidifies the back-up point guard spot, and we look as good as those statistics suggest we should (i.e. compete for a playoff spot). It'd be almost Joe Johnson-like to let paying Oubre break up this young developing roster if the team is successful next year.
sunsbg wrote:Bol Bol would have been a nice backup 4/5. Clearly a better player than Diallo in both O and D.
Nope.
He is neither a Center nor a PF. Not even a pure SF. He's a guard and I've been telling it since the Draft. The tallest guard this game ever saw. Nobody trusted me, of course. Excepting Malone, apparently.
Before signing for PHX, in the Spanish thread we wrote wich team each one of us wanted for Ricky I said Denver. The idea of combining the talents of The Golden Boy, The Joker and Bol Bol got me hard.
The Ricky-bol-bol-ball!
But I'm happy he's here.
Hope he can play against Utah, even with limited minutes. Apparently, the COVID didn't hurt him bad... he said he just feel he lacks training and conditioning.
https://www.nba.com/games/20200722/WASDEN/#/boxscore I had to look Bol Bol up, there's his numbers for his warm-up game tonight. The box score has him listed as SF which I guess I understand.....but then again, they have Jokic listed as the starting PG.
"Never argue with an idiot. You'll never convince the idiot that you're correct, and bystanders won't be able to tell who's who." - Mark Twain
Malone pretends to bury the Small-Ball Age under ten feet of concrete. I support him.
-I tell them: Gentlemen you desist. Your differences are bussiness of your own. We all must care this Refuge's harmony and decorum -What if they don't listen? -I kill them and throw them into the sea
I'd trade anyone on this roster in the right deal but was just saying I wouldn't be so quick to break up a group that's playing well after all these years of searching for anything that works. I really believe that type of lineup is how you should play around Ayton and Booker so I'm don't really have any interest in bringing in a traditional 4 starter. The quickness and flexibility you have with a group like that outweighs the size disadvantage you have against certain teams. Now I'd have some big depth off bench to play against certain teams. Id love to grab a 4/5 combo type guy to go along with a combo guard for the bench this off-season.
I think continuity will be an advantage next season with the short off-season and generally weird year the 20/21 season will be.
I get the paying oubre concern but at some point you need to pay players if yourre good. Plus as long as they don't do anything foolish with their money this off-season they will have max cap space as a backup for Oubre leaving. Rubio comes off before a bridges and aytons next contract would kick in so they aren't in a bad spot financially. Plus you can always trade Kelly at the deadline if things aren't working out. Overall I'd probably give it a chance to work out.
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming Wow! What a Ride!-H.S.T.
JDLAW wrote:GOK - You and a couple of others offer these duplicitous posts. We hope Oubre stays, but we should trade him for lesser players or mediocre draft choices.
I don't care about his free agency - pay him what he is worth and the market determines his worth. I have no problem with the Suns paying Oubre market value and am not inclined to to put some artificial price tag on him or any other key player.
Lastly, brevity can be your friend.
It's cool, It's your opinion, And you're entitled to it.
But honestly, It's not my intention, Nor do I believe that it is any others on here to be deceitful regarding our interests in keeping Oubre on this team. Rather, it's actually being aware of, accepting and formulating open discussions around the concept of making a potential losing proposition ( as in potentially losing Oubre for no return other than mere cap space in free agency) into a more palatable alternatives by discussing viable options for actually getting a fair and equitable return. Also, opinions will of course vary on percieved value and overall, those perceptions are ultimately highly situational anyways. Where one person sees value, others do not. Yet that doesn't tangibly detract from that players potential contribution or contractual value. Especially for a team like us with serious contractual considerations, and a restrictive cap too. It's all in how you choose to use the assets which ultimately determine their intrinsic value to the team acquiring them. Varying perspectives of course.
Now you may prefer to roll the dice, And hope that we can reasonably afford to resign him, To whatever his market dictates. But what if that number is over 20+ million? Can you assure me at that point, That he's still a reasonable contractual commitment? Again, When considering Aytons' extension, As well as the rest of our contractual scale increases and Bridges extension also? I'm sorry to be a worry wort, You know the cap better than I do, So If you can just assure me that we will absolutely have enough cap flexibility even after potentially paying Oubre an excess of 20+ million or more ( to outbid other teams for him) and still be able to extend Ayton even at a potential mini max amount or more should he make even more large scale improvements this coming season and maintain enough cap flexibility to still retain Bridges the following summer whenst his extension also becomes due, Then absolutely, We should prioritize outbidding whatever teams may offer for him. Otherwise, despite his great showing, I for my part, Just wouldn't feel comfortable with potentially overpaying to outbid other teams for him, Potentially at the cost of either Ayton or Bridges. Unless you consider his value to be greater than either of those other core players. By the way, Worst case scenario, Which of those 3 players do you consider to be the most easily replaceable? Also, at what amount do you consider the cutoff to be for Oubre in free agency? 18 million? 20 million? 30 million?
What is the max we can afford to actually spend contractually for him, And yet still be able to extend Ayton on a near max contract, And possibly Bridges at a much higher amount, Should he surpass expectations and ball out this season and next? Lastly, With regard to being duplicitous I have also put out quite a few trade proposals wherein we keep Oubre and select more cost effective players, ie; Bertransand / or Ibaka or Milsap , And/ or draft picks ( Jalen Smith/ Tyler Bey or Paul Reed specifically) with the intention of resigning Oubre, As they're going to be invaluable to a team like us with immenent key contractual obligations. The draft picks are meant to fill needed depth at varying positions, whilst allowing us to maintain cap flexibility in order to actually have a better chance of resigning Oubre. So it's not as if I've been overtly endorsing trading Oubre as our only option. Just that it seems many on here can't accept that you can't have it both ways. Either you look to move Oubre, IF you anticipate not being able to afford resigning him, Or you look to keep him, And fill roster depth with more affordable options on cost controlled contracts ( rookie scale contracts). Which again, I am fine with too. Ultimately, whether you choose to believe it or not, I'd prefer to keep Oubre! But only if it means we don't risk losing Ayton or Bridges due to cap restrictions and lack of cap flexibility.
And sorry again for my lack of brevity! It's an ongoing struggle for me. But I sincerely intend to put more effort into being a lot more concise in the future.
quote="WeekapaugGroove"]I'd trade anyone on this roster in the right deal but was just saying I wouldn't be so quick to break up a group that's playing well after all these years of searching for anything that works. I really believe that type of lineup is how you should play around Ayton and Booker so I'm don't really have any interest in bringing in a traditional 4 starter. The quickness and flexibility you have with a group like that outweighs the size disadvantage you have against certain teams. Now I'd have some big depth off bench to play against certain teams. Id love to grab a 4/5 combo type guy to go along with a combo guard for the bench this off-season.
I think continuity will be an advantage next season with the short off-season and generally weird year the 20/21 season will be.
I get the paying oubre concern but at some point you need to pay players if yourre good. Plus as long as they don't do anything foolish with their money this off-season they will have max cap space as a backup for Oubre leaving. Rubio comes off before a bridges and aytons next contract would kick in so they aren't in a bad spot financially. Plus you can always trade Kelly at the deadline if things aren't working out. Overall I'd probably give it a chance to work out.
I DO agree with the premise of everything that you and JDLAW are saying. And to a large point, You're not wrong! again, my only concern is in that a potential overpay for Oubre in 2021, Seeing as how he will be unrestricted, And as we all know, It really only takes one desperate team to overpay for him to force our hand. And IF that does in fact happen, Then how much can we realistically commit towards Oubre without risking losing Ayton or Bridges in restricted free agency as they both will be restricted free agents in 2022? This is why I value trading back to fill roster depth at other positions on minimal rookie scale contracts.
Ala my previous Boston/ Dallas trades using the 10th pick. With Boston for the 17/30th picks.
17- Draft Kira Lewis or Grant Riller or Tyrell Terry. Low cost backup guard option. 30- Draft Paul Reed or Tyler Bey. To provide defense at the backup 3/4, switching up with Cam.
Or to Dallas for the 18 and 31. 18- Draft Lewis or Riller or Terry. 31- Draft Paul Reed to be backup 3/4 and sometimes small ball 5. With our core lineup remaining the same. Or IF we so choose occasionally, Move Rubio to backup guard, Bridges to the 2, Oubre to the 3, Sign Bertans or Ibaka or Milsap on cheap to play at the 4 at times as needed. Then also sign Justin Holiday for added defense at the backup 2/3.
The majority of my overall proposals for keeping Oubre again had us with a lineup along the lines of: - Rubio/ Lewis/ Carter. - Booker/ Holiday/ Jerome. - Bridges / Cam/ Reed. - Oubre/ Reed/ Cam. - Ayton/ Baynes/ Kaminsky.
Or IF we signed Bertans: ( revisit the Kennard trade too). ** Kennard for 10. Then buy a late first/ early 2nd for Reed.
Or in " Point Book" situations: - Booker/ Kennard/ Carter. - Bridges/ Rubio/ Jerome. - Oubre/ Cam/ Holiday. - Bertans/ Reed/ Cam. - Ayton/ Baynes/ Reed. So it definitely is doable, As long as it's planned out well. But the key is being smart with our cap space and maximizing flexibility longterm.
That's great very potent offense, With really solid balanced defense too. For offense you now have: Booker/ Kennard/ Cam/ Oubre/ Ayton. and for defense you now have: Carter/ Bridges/ Holiday/ Reed/ Baynes. *** If we can't swing the deal for Kennard, Then just buy a late 2nd and then draft Sam Merrill. He's 6'5 and is absolutely lethal as a shooter, with better shooting stats than even Kennard himself. But my vision for keeping Oubre involved adding low cost depth to support our core, And then using our cap space to add one legitimate upgrade piece ( Bertrans/ Ibaka/ Milsap/ Wood) IF at all possible? Not to necessarily replace Oubre, But to give us even more potency and potential versatility and depth whilst maintaining maximum cap flexibility.
WeekapaugGroove wrote:I'd trade anyone on this roster in the right deal but was just saying I wouldn't be so quick to break up a group that's playing well after all these years of searching for anything that works. I really believe that type of lineup is how you should play around Ayton and Booker so I'm don't really have any interest in bringing in a traditional 4 starter. The quickness and flexibility you have with a group like that outweighs the size disadvantage you have against certain teams. Now I'd have some big depth off bench to play against certain teams. Id love to grab a 4/5 combo type guy to go along with a combo guard for the bench this off-season.
I think continuity will be an advantage next season with the short off-season and generally weird year the 20/21 season will be.
I get the paying oubre concern but at some point you need to pay players if yourre good. Plus as long as they don't do anything foolish with their money this off-season they will have max cap space as a backup for Oubre leaving. Rubio comes off before a bridges and aytons next contract would kick in so they aren't in a bad spot financially. Plus you can always trade Kelly at the deadline if things aren't working out. Overall I'd probably give it a chance to work out.
That's my take. Barring a no brainer deal for trade, you don't break it up...now I don't know if his agent is wanting a max or something like 4/90 either, so that could play into a decision if one is made.
A player like Vassell is definitely the type of player I like, and if the higher rated or better fits for current group are not available, and no good trades on the table, and he is there at 10 and we take him, that also opens up options while leaving similar type lineups on the floor at a lower cost, with more financial flexibility.
I would go into next year and see how things are working. Is that unit still thriving and does the team have chemistry? Are there major holes and little depth in places that let any leads that group builds evaporate?
If things are not going so well and/or someone becomes disgruntled, is there a good trade offer at the deadline you look at? And then if need be, you may let him walk if the contract is cost prohibitive for a position of depth barring a lot of improvement.
I wonder what kind of offers Harry Giles will get this off-season? He could be a nice little flyer on a reasonable 1 or 2yr deal and give some minutes at the 4 and 5.
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming Wow! What a Ride!-H.S.T.
To me it makes more sense to retain Baynes, Saric, Kaminsky and Carter cap holds, and even if Saric and Carter bolt, head into next season with:
Baynes (bird rights), Kaminsky (TO), and $9m MLE to spend (and BAE)
Instead of:
removing all those players and try to replace them all with $22m. We'd have to blow the whole lot on a guy like Gallinari and that wouldn't solve our depth issues. Alternatively, I doubt we'd get enough quality with $22m that would equate to Baynes ($10m+), Frank ($5m) and a $9m guard.
sunsbg wrote:Bol Bol would have been a nice backup 4/5. Clearly a better player than Diallo in both O and D.
I never understood how he dropped to #44 during the draft and I still don’t understand it now. There were way too many players with far less ceilings and capabilities getting drafted higher.
sunsbg wrote:Bol Bol would have been a nice backup 4/5. Clearly a better player than Diallo in both O and D.
I never understood how he dropped to #44 during the draft and I still don’t understand it now. There were way too many players with far less ceilings and capabilities getting drafted higher.
Probably the bias against bigs combined with the health concerns. He's a unique player though, as mentioned above looks more like a SG/SF on O, but offers rim-protection on D.
WeekapaugGroove wrote:I wonder what kind of offers Harry Giles will get this off-season? He could be a nice little flyer on a reasonable 1 or 2yr deal and give some minutes at the 4 and 5.
Giles is not good at anything, that's his problem. He is decent at some areas, but not good enough to deserve minutes over so many PF/Cs around the league.
He is similar to Cheick Diallo and we can have him on the roster next season for $1.8M (TO), so I think I would prefer to stay away from Giles and bring back Diallo as a third string C.
Kaminsky is another solid option that we will have on a TO that I would prefer over Giles.
I just curious about how we are going to entice a decent back up PG with a whopping 15-18 mins a game? We going to cut Rubes minutes ? We going to promise the starting slot in a couple years ? Are we going to over pay some Vet to jump ship?? Frankly, the question really is WHY?
This will be a conservative off season IMO. Too much uncertainty floating about. When free agency hits, the PG crop's cream will will ink fast. In fact, I dont think many players are going to gamble with deals on tables. Ive seen a few names dangled about... but it will come down to timing, how much we spend on Baynes, and if we retain Saric. We wont be the only ones shopping for back up PGs, and most of the FAs have bird rights attached... last thing we need is to tie up bidding money on a player we dont get.
What FA hay and cap space we have to spread has to cover back up C, a PF, as well as a back up PG???? Just seems to me, the PG depth will be /is an economical move... they gave Payne a 2 yr deal for a reason. Jones nabbed him with Monty's approval as hes a much better facilitator than rockpounding Carter.. Its a 'remove the risk' move. It seemed so minor, yet it allows much more flexibility. I dont think we will even offer a deal to a FA PG. Not in the first go round anyway. And likely not after we draft one. I think they have solved their issues at this spot, and its just a matter of who they target in the draft.
Frank Lee wrote:I just curious about how we are going to entice a decent back up PG with a whopping 15-18 mins a game? We going to cut Rubes minutes ? We going to promise the starting slot in a couple years ? Are we going to over pay some Vet to jump ship?? Frankly, the question really is WHY?
This will be a conservative off season IMO. Too much uncertainty floating about. When free agency hits, the PG crop's cream will will ink fast. In fact, I dont think many players are going to gamble with deals on tables. Ive seen a few names dangled about... but it will come down to timing, how much we spend on Baynes, and if we retain Saric. We wont be the only ones shopping for back up PGs, and most of the FAs have bird rights attached... last thing we need is to tie up bidding money on a player we dont get.
What FA hay and cap space we have to spread has to cover back up C, a PF, as well as a back up PG???? Just seems to me, the PG depth will be /is an economical move... they gave Payne a 2 yr deal for a reason. Jones nabbed him with Monty's approval as hes a much better facilitator than rockpounding Carter.. Its a 'remove the risk' move. It seemed so minor, yet it allows much more flexibility. I dont think we will even offer a deal to a FA PG. Not in the first go round anyway. And likely not after we draft one. I think they have solved their issues at this spot, and its just a matter of who they target in the draft.
Sorry boys, our money is better spent elsewhere.
You know that injuries are everywhere and a good backup PG could play 30 minutes per game next year for us. I would not be suprised.
And we can play Rubio and that PG together a few minutes per game. A lot of teams play with two PGs at the same time... there will be minutes available, that is for sure.
Someone like Reggie Jackson or Goran Dragic would be perfect, but those are gonna be expensive.
D.J. Augustin would be a more realistic target, I like him. Baller on offense and good enough defensively.
He played under Monty (associate HC) during half season on the Thunder in 2015-16. That can be a factor.
This fall could be a rough market for FAs in general with teams choosing to save money for the 21 class and also uncertainty of the future cap if it looks like they won't have full arenas for at least part of the season. You might be able to grab a decent player by throwing a 1yr bloated deal out there. Could be good for the suns because they keep flexibility for 21 and good for a player who wants some cash and then tries FA again in a better 21 market.
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming Wow! What a Ride!-H.S.T.
again, my only concern is in that a potential overpay for Oubre in 2021, Seeing as how he will be unrestricted, And as we all know, It really only takes one desperate team to overpay for him to force our hand. And IF that does in fact happen, Then how much can we realistically commit towards Oubre without risking losing Ayton or Bridges in restricted free agency as they both will be restricted free agents in 2022? This is why I value trading back to fill roster depth at other positions on minimal rookie scale contracts. 
