Knicks/Nets Looking At Lavine

weneeda2guard · Post #41 » by **weneeda2guard** » Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:50 pm

We are team that needs to see some winning sooner than later.

If you trade your best player your just about taking yourself out of any free agency conversation as no star is coming to a team that is bare. If we want any shot of getting guys to come here in 2021 the best way to sell ourselves is to have 2 max slots and lavine and coby white and whoever we get in the draft this year on the roster.

We are just not getting anything return that will be better than lavine. No team is giving up a top 3 pick for him and no team is trading a all star for him. At best we only getting young potential players who will regress being here under boylen and some mediocre draft picks which equal yet another roster spot eating up money but not giving good production consistently.

MrSparkle · Post #42 » by **MrSparkle** » Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:53 pm

Red8911 wrote:If the Bulls want to turn things around and make the playoffs then they should keep Lavine. The only way they should consider trading him is if a team offers a deal for a player or players that could make the bulls better, meaning not for picks or cash. It would have to be a basketball move.The players they should trade first are Carter and Porter, not Lavine.

To be fair, I don't think LaVine turns anything around to make the playoffs. He's shown 2 years in a row that him scoring in bunches with aggressive team defensive effort doesn't even make the Bulls remotely competitive. Boylen did have Dunn, Wendell and co. playing some aggressive defense until their injuries hit, and Zach to me is a plainly inefficient, high-usage offensive player.

I also think the best player from the top-5 of the 2020 draft ought to project better than Zach. I totally realize the risk, but not extending a max offer to Zach in 2022 is kind of worth that risk.

But like I keep saying, i see Zach's value as a super scorer. He'd be good in BRK as a younger #3. I wouldn't take BRK's offer (LaVert?) unless they overpaid with multiple future FRPs (22, 24, 25 swap), but after the Celtics debacle, I don't see them mortgaging the future with Durant and Irving's injury histories. But if they did offer a treasure chest, it'd be very smart of CHI load up for the future. What are the odds that Chicago contends before 2022, with COVID going on? Negative 200%? After that, what are the odds they contend with a $35m+ Zach LaVine? Negative 300%? :lol:

NYK's FRP, RJ and Taj is something I'd do. I don't think it's an overpay for either side, especially if it's a #5-8 pick and the guy AK wants is there (but not on NYK's radar). Could throw a C their way (Wendell or Gafford) if it's a top-5 pick and Bulls go Okongwu/Wisemen, though I'd hope to leave the draft with two wings.

Problem for NYK with this draft, is that unless it's Deni, their depth chart is going to continue being very messy. They've got a lot of big men. They've got a shooting problem. They need a playmaker, but RJ isn't gonna compliment entirely well as a spot-up shooter for a poor shooter like LaMelo, Hayes, etc. NYK has cap in 22. They can work a FA plan around LaVine's extension.

Hugi Mancura · Post #43 » by **Hugi Mancura** » Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:03 pm

Do neither have anything Bulls want. Knicks have young players, but is anyone worth anything? Barrett is inefficient scorer. Was that in Duke and now in Knicks. His high school reputation is what is carrying him. Knox is awful too. Ntilikina is only one who has shown anything and he is pretty much same as Dunn. So if they get him Bulls don't need to sign Dunn. Robinson is nice rim protector, but not a difference maker. Only thing Knicks have is their pick, but before I know how high it is I wouldn't touch it. So going with TheSuzerain in here: 1:st picks and Ntilikina. Knicks does have Clippers 1:st pick in 20 and Mavs first pick in 21 including their own, so maybe add Dallas pick with Knicks own picks.

Brooklyn has even less. Levert seems like only worthy player, but he starts earning 17k for 3 years starting next year. So he would be 2k cheaper than Lavine. Other worthy player is Joe Harris and he is free agent. Their young players (Musa, Kurucs and Allen) none are nothing to write home about. Even though I wouldn't be surprised if Musa will have best career out of all these younglings from both teams (NYK & BRK). They also have KD and Irving, so their picks will not be worth much in this year (actually it seems Minnesota most likely will have their 1:st pick this year) or in years to come and they don't have any meaningful picks coming in from other teams, so what they have to offer?

drosereturn · Post #44 » by **drosereturn** » Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:22 pm

Red8911 wrote:If the Bulls want to turn things around and make the playoffs then they should keep Lavine. The only way they should consider trading him is if a team offers a deal for a player or players that could make the bulls better, meaning not for picks or cash. It would have to be a basketball move.The players they should trade first are Carter and Porter, not Lavine.

Yes but the issue is keeping Lavine puts the Bulls on a clock 2 yr table. Are you really sure you can get 2 max players by then?
Splitting Lavine into Din, Levert makes the team competitive while also being financially flexible and fills out multiple needs.
If Lavines future salary (35) is Din and Levert combined, theres no way I am keeping Lavine. Din is a much better fit for the Bulls since he is a lead playmaker and can get to the line at will while not being a turnover machine nor a defensive liability.
White has long ways to go so he can learn off the bench while limiting his usg to 20 for Lauri and Carter.

The Knicks package are more questionable no doubt because all they have is high draft picks not great prospects.

Post #45 » by **HomoSapien** » Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:46 pm

The Knicks potential package is pretty questionable, but if they were willing to do some combination of RJ Barrett, Mitchell Robinson, and their pick it might be worth listening to.

The Nets obviously could offer better established (but young) players in LeVert, Allen, and Dinwiddie. I think LaVine's become a bit underrated. I don't think the gap between he and Devin Booker is all that big, and I don't think it'd be that surprising to see him play at a Bradley Beal level either.

Post #46 » by **Michael Jackson** » Fri Jul 24, 2020 11:12 pm

rtblues wrote:So it looks like Reinsdorf is choosing Boylen over Lavine...

Wha? Surely doesn’t mean the Buss family is choosing anything over AD if it is reported that the Bulls have interest in AD. Clickbait reports in slow media times mean absolutely nothing of the sort. All that this does is actually help raise LaVine’s value which is really great contract considered. As far as choosing Boylen, the Knicks also haven’t hired a coach and no one is making moves until after the bubble. Now I am no defender of Reinsdorf but it was also said just mere months ago that Jerry would never hire a new GM, which Michael did at the most unlikely time, in a Covid stoppage. I hear this and that about the Reinsdorfs and by no means are they the family I want to own the Bulls but most of it just simply isn’t true. They will never pay 2 coaches, yet they did and a a lot when they fired Thibs. They also paid Fred (dumbest hire ever) etc... The precedent of them making the GM move was with Hahn and Kenny, yet all I heard that it was impossible, yet it happened. There was a very literal example, but Jerry won’t do that... yet he had done that and viola once again did it again. I just trust logic over click bait media reports. I get the Jerry bias for sure and he is not a fan friendly owner by any stretch of the imagination but no where is there anything indicating that MR or JR is choosing Boylen over Zach. Honestly Lavine is simply their best cash cow right now at a reasonable price, cheap Jerry would never trade that because he is the best ROI he can get. He will horde that for better or worse.

Jcool0 · Post #47 » by **Jcool0** » Fri Jul 24, 2020 11:14 pm

Read on Twitter

Post #48 » by **Michael Jackson** » Fri Jul 24, 2020 11:16 pm

Since the trade deadline passed, no one can make any trades until free agency starts right? I’m not sure on timelines but this is way out there left field conjecture at best. I’d like to trade fo Giannis.

Bullflip · Post #49 » by **Bullflip** » Fri Jul 24, 2020 11:24 pm

I think it depends on how you see Lavine. Do you see him making the Bulls contender as the alpha? If you don’t, I would trade him. Here’s why, say the Bulls get the top pick and draft some hot shot or whatever, he will never develop into a superstar that’s needed with Zach here’re because that’s how Lavine sees himself. He sees the Bulls as HIS team. That’s why none of the youngsters we currently have are going to surpass Lavine unless he’s removed. On top of that this is year 6 for Lavine. He’s not going to give up his leadership or alpha role to someone who just comes to the Bulls unless it’s some superstar like Durant or Giannis.

I believe the best part going forward is to trade high for Lavine. I would prefer getting a pick in the 2021 or 2022 draft. I forgot which one is the double draft, where high schoolers will be jumping in.

Then from the draft picks and our current group, see which one develops into the alpha. Right now Lavine is hindering that developmental step because he sees himself as the alpha

Pax for Prez · Post #50 » by **Pax for Prez** » Fri Jul 24, 2020 11:35 pm

Bullflip wrote:I think it depends on how you see Lavine. Do you see him making the Bulls contender as the alpha? If you don’t, I would trade him. Here’s why, say the Bulls get the top pick and draft some hot shot or whatever, he will never develop into a superstar that’s needed with Zach here’re because that’s how Lavine sees himself. He sees the Bulls as HIS team. That’s why none of the youngsters we currently have are going to surpass Lavine unless he’s removed. On top of that this is year 6 for Lavine. He’s not going to give up his leadership or alpha role to someone who just comes to the Bulls unless it’s some superstar like Durant or Giannis.

I believe the best part going forward is to trade high for Lavine. I would prefer getting a pick in the 2021 or 2022 draft. I forgot which one is the double draft, where high schoolers will be jumping in.

Then from the draft picks and our current group, see which one develops into the alpha. Right now Lavine is hindering that developmental step because he sees himself as the alpha

I believe the 2022 NBA Draft possibly will have players straight out of High School entering it.

Pax

dice · Post #51 » by **dice** » Sat Jul 25, 2020 1:09 am

Trm3 wrote:
Little Nathan wrote:
tgmxd wrote:I know people are gonna say “sell high” like butler

This is a guy with #1 option tools who’s gotten better every year

You don’t give those guys up unless they absolutely force your hand

I’m hoping this organization learned that the hard way last time and doesn’t do it again

LaVine isn't close to being the player Butler is or was when we traded him. Completely different situation.

I'm going to disagree.

LaVine is a much better offensive talent/scorer than Butler will ever be and he's only getting better. Butler has him defensively and Butler has slipped up on that end ever since he focused more on his offense.

"talent" is pretty meaningless by the time a guy is 25. production is what matters. and jimmy out-produces lavine offensively due to his all-around game and clutch gene

weneeda2guard · Post #52 » by **weneeda2guard** » Sat Jul 25, 2020 1:19 am

A lot of teams are asking about lavine because they know that you win with talent. You trade lavine then you pretty much got nothing for Jimmy butler. I dont think we are at a point to be worried about constructing a title contending team we just need talent right now.

Apart of me feels lavine is putting this out on the back channels to get boylen out of here. I think the goal should be getting a couple guys here with lavine rather then shipping him off for some mediocre return essentially blowing it up once again.

I will say again. This is the worst case scenario most feared when we were arguing trading jimmy butler. Some act as if all star talent is just lying everywhere and top draft picks are guaranteed to us. All we have compiled is 7th picks in the draft and a bad coach we now don't want to part with. Its shaping up to be another decade before we get a competitive team on the floor at this pace.

StunnerKO · Post #53 » by **StunnerKO** » Sat Jul 25, 2020 1:19 am

Pax for Prez wrote:
Bullflip wrote:I think it depends on how you see Lavine. Do you see him making the Bulls contender as the alpha? If you don’t, I would trade him. Here’s why, say the Bulls get the top pick and draft some hot shot or whatever, he will never develop into a superstar that’s needed with Zach here’re because that’s how Lavine sees himself. He sees the Bulls as HIS team. That’s why none of the youngsters we currently have are going to surpass Lavine unless he’s removed. On top of that this is year 6 for Lavine. He’s not going to give up his leadership or alpha role to someone who just comes to the Bulls unless it’s some superstar like Durant or Giannis.

I believe the best part going forward is to trade high for Lavine. I would prefer getting a pick in the 2021 or 2022 draft. I forgot which one is the double draft, where high schoolers will be jumping in.

Then from the draft picks and our current group, see which one develops into the alpha. Right now Lavine is hindering that developmental step because he sees himself as the alpha

I believe the 2022 NBA Draft possibly will have players straight out of High School entering it.

Pax

dice · Post #54 » by **dice** » Sat Jul 25, 2020 1:25 am

Jvaughn wrote:Maybe I'm in the minority, and I know he was just a rookie, but RJ Barrett is a horrid player. 14ppg on 47% TS% 10PER and not in the top 100 for guards for DRPM.

true, but the knicks probably hold out hope for him given that he was such a high pick. so both sides would be content to keep him out of any deal

lavine for unprotected 2022 first rounder, thank you and good night

for what it's worth, here are espn's prospect grades coming out of HS for the upcoming drafts:

2020 draft (HS class of 2019)

97 wiseman
96 anthony/stewart/edwards/hampton/carey/mcdaniels/green/mannion/lewis/hurt

2021 draft (class of 2020)

97 green/cunningham/mobley/kuminga
96 barnes/suggs/boston

2022 draft (classes of 2021/2022)

98 bates
97 holmgren/baldwin/banchero/hardy
96 smith/duren

2023 draft (class of 2023)

96 wagner/lewis

dice · Post #55 » by **dice** » Sat Jul 25, 2020 1:32 am

weneeda2guard wrote:A lot of teams are asking about lavine because they know that you win with talent. You trade lavine then you pretty much got nothing for Jimmy butler

if the new FO has jimmy butler in the back of their minds when considering moves going forward, that's a real bad sign

the butler trade is over and done with. sunk cost. lauri and dunn not panning out should have no impact on any decisions involving lavine. and if nothing else, we don't have to pay jimmy 108 mil over the next 3 seasons while he will very likely be in decline (and so will the salary cap). after all, that was the main reason we traded him in the first place - didn't want to pay him a max deal

If you trade your best player your just about taking yourself out of any free agency conversation as no star is coming to a team that is bare.

if zach lavine is your best player no major free agent is going to be interested either

the knicks being interested in lavine should just be more evidence that it's a really bad idea to pay him market value on his next contract

MrFortune3 · Post #56 » by **MrFortune3** » Sat Jul 25, 2020 1:48 am

Of course they’re interested. They have interest in really good players and Zach is a really good player who keeps improving.

WindyCityBorn · Post #57 » by **WindyCityBorn** » Sat Jul 25, 2020 2:25 am

weneeda2guard wrote:A lot of teams are asking about lavine because they know that you win with talent. You trade lavine then you pretty much got nothing for Jimmy butler. I dont think we are at a point to be worried about constructing a title contending team we just need talent right now.

Apart of me feels lavine is putting this out on the back channels to get boylen out of here. I think the goal should be getting a couple guys here with lavine rather then shipping him off for some mediocre return essentially blowing it up once again.

I will say again. This is the worst case scenario most feared when we were arguing trading jimmy butler. Some act as if all star talent is just lying everywhere and top draft picks are guaranteed to us. All we have compiled is 7th picks in the draft and a bad coach we now don't want to part with. Its shaping up to be another decade before we get a competitive team on the floor at this pace.

I don't think LaVine put this out there. It's a made up non-story.

Bulls69 · Post #58 » by **Bulls69** » Sat Jul 25, 2020 2:39 am

weneeda2guard wrote:We are team that needs to see some winning sooner than later.

If you trade your best player your just about taking yourself out of any free agency conversation as no star is coming to a team that is bare. If we want any shot of getting guys to come here in 2021 the best way to sell ourselves is to have 2 max slots and lavine and coby white and whoever we get in the draft this year on the roster.

We are just not getting anything return that will be better than lavine. No team is giving up a top 3 pick for him and no team is trading a all star for him. At best we only getting young potential players who will regress being here under boylen and some mediocre draft yo

picks which equal yet another roster spot eating up money but not giving good production consistently.

Your are spot on

chitowndish · Post #59 » by **chitowndish** » Sat Jul 25, 2020 2:49 am

Put me in the camp that does not want to get rid of Lavine. I know that he has things to work on and weaknesses but I really love his mentality and how he works on his game and he's just a guy you can go to war with.

Maybe he can't lead us to a championship but we are so far away from that it isn't funny and I just want to see one guy that fights. I don't care if he's the #1 option on a championship team I'd rather watch him than the rest of our team and it really isn't close in most cases. I'd more trade some of our supporting players to get someone that can play with Lavine.

ImSlower · Post #60 » by **ImSlower** » Sat Jul 25, 2020 4:06 am

I think this is a complete non-story. I'm sure many rival GMs are attempting to circle the Bulls' new management like a pack of hyenas.

I also have faith in AK, because he has a bad-ass Russian name, to not take any low-ball offers seriously. While I firmly believe we need a real star to push LaVine into a secondary star role, we ain't trading the guy. Not a chance. Well, perhaps if we keep Boylen and hear about another team revolt any day now, which I don't think any of us would be surprised by.