Democratic Primary Thread: The Deuce

[HarthorneWingo]

He was speaking to the reality of the situation at the time.

One video was from 2016, so that's not relevant to today in the slightest.

The other ones are from 2019, when it looked like Trump had a relatively strong standing heading into the 2020, and the Senate would not be in play.

Now that Biden is up ~10 pts nationally, and the Senate looks like it can be flipped back to Dem control, I don't think anyone is talking about a need to compromise with Republicans if we retake the upper chamber.

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That's still from last year, when the reality was that we would have to work with Republicans.

Anything from the last 6 weeks, when the Senate was put in play?

The Senate was always in play for this election.

From the last 6 weeks? You’re joking right? Joe’s been in the closet for the past 3 months. The better question is that given this longstanding track record of Biden’s, has he said anything to reflect a change in his position during the last 6 weeks?

[GONYK]

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That's still from last year, when the reality was that we would have to work with Republicans.

Anything from the last 6 weeks, when the Senate was put in play?

The Senate was always in play for this election.

From the last 6 weeks? You’re joking right? Joe’s been in the closet for the past 3 months. The better question is that given this longstanding track record of Biden’s, has he said anything to reflect a change in his position during the last 6 weeks?

What is his position exactly? That he's open to working with Republicans to secure the things that he thinks will help the American people?

Sounds like this guy

Watch on YouTube

[HarthorneWingo]

That's still from last year, when the reality was that we would have to work with Republicans.

Anything from the last 6 weeks, when the Senate was put in play?

The Senate was always in play for this election.

From the last 6 weeks? You’re joking right? Joe’s been in the closet for the past 3 months. The better question is that given this longstanding track record of Biden’s, has he said anything to reflect a change in his position during the last 6 weeks?

What is his position exactly? That he's open to working with Republicans to secure the things that he thinks will help the American people?

Sounds like this guy

Watch on YouTube

Meh, not really. Bernie said he’d work with Trump on those issues effecting working and middle class families if he’s so inclined to go in that direction but would fight tooth and nail on issues of racism and sexism.

Bernie also many times called Trump “the most dangerous President in our nation’s history. Let’s not get in debate about whether Biden or Bernie has fought for the working and middle class more. It won’t go well for your guy.

Let’s see what Joe had to say about Trump when interviewed by Nicole Wallace on MSNBC and compare it to Bernie’s statement.

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?s=20

Watch on YouTube

[Pointgod]

It will take us two decades of Democratic control to have a prayer of saving as much of humanity as possible from climate change - inasmuch as the GOP apparently harbors a death wish for our species.

If we experience another two years and a cloud of dust Presidency, tens of millions more will die in the decades to come than had to die in the alternate scenario.

To dominate the Congress and Presidency the way that we need to dominate it, you need a very big tent party.

Bingo. If you get a filibuster proof majority, you're not going to like or be able to rely on all those people on every issue. The country is too diverse. But you need that kind of majority to make huge changes quickly.

Can you specifically define what you mean by "a big tent" in practical terms?

We need to get rid of the filibuster. We'll never get 60 votes on important legislation. It’s our turn to play “dirty” and steamroll these mofos.

A big tent party is a party that can accommodate everyone from the AOC’s of the world to Joe Manchins and Kyrsteb Sinemas. You need to find a way to appeal to voters in those states to keep those seats until either the demographics of the states change or Democrats flip enough seats to where they don’t need to rely on those votes to pass legislation (especially in the Senate).

This does not mean catering to Republicans but rather play to the politics of the states and congressional districts.

[HarthorneWingo]

Bingo. If you get a filibuster proof majority, you're not going to like or be able to rely on all those people on every issue. The country is too diverse. But you need that kind of majority to make huge changes quickly.

Can you specifically define what you mean by "a big tent" in practical terms?

We need to get rid of the filibuster. We'll never get 60 votes on important legislation. It’s our turn to play “dirty” and steamroll these mofos.

A big tent party is a party that can accommodate everyone from the AOC’s of the world to Joe Manchins and Kyrsteb Sinemas. You need to find a way to appeal to voters in those states to keep those seats until either the demographics of the states change or Democrats flip enough seats to where they don’t need to rely on those votes to pass legislation (especially in the Senate).

This does not mean catering to Republicans but rather play to the politics of the states and congressional districts.

Thank you. Of course, it's an electoral argument. But we're not going to win over those voters with neoliberal establishment Wall Street friendly policies. The way to get those voters who are possibly amenable to coming over to show them that we can do things for them that both parties have ignored for decades. I don't think that's by locking arms with those who are hardcore antiabortionists and tax cutters.

The reason why they voted for Trump was because they hated all of the establishment candidates.

[GONYK]

The Senate was always in play for this election.

From the last 6 weeks? You’re joking right? Joe’s been in the closet for the past 3 months. The better question is that given this longstanding track record of Biden’s, has he said anything to reflect a change in his position during the last 6 weeks?

What is his position exactly? That he's open to working with Republicans to secure the things that he thinks will help the American people?

Sounds like this guy

Watch on YouTube

Meh, not really. Bernie said he’d work with Trump on those issues effecting working and middle class families if he’s so inclined to go in that direction but would fight tooth and nail on issues of racism and sexism.

Yes, that's the definition of bipartisanship. Working with the other side if doing so is beneficial to what you want to see accomplished. It's literally the same approach you're trying to ding Biden for.

I bet you don't have any videos of Biden saying he will work with Republicans only on the things they care about, or to specifically promote racism and sexism, do you?

Let’s not get in debate about whether Biden or Bernie has fought for the working and middle class more. It won’t go well for your guy.

Well, there is no need to debate it. The voters of the primary election have already decided who they want to be represented by.

Bernie also many times called Trump “the most dangerous President in our nation’s history.

Let’s see what Joe had to say about Trump when interviewed by Nicole Wallace on MSNBC and compare it to Bernie’s statement.

Read on Twitter

?s=20

Watch on YouTube

Well, first off, "yo yo" is an insult.

Secondly, Biden has called Trump a racist, a coward, and criticized him many other ways. A simple Google search yields more evidence of that than I care to post. Criticism of Trump isn't in short supply. Bernie didn't go out on a limb to say something bad about Trump.

All of this is to say, that Biden has never promised to court Republicans or to promote Republican ideas over Democrat ones, or anything that you're accusing him of.

He just said he doesn't hate them and he's willing to work with them. Just like Bernie did when he repeatedly offered to work with Trump. Just like many other politicians who are trying to brand themselves as uniters say.

When Biden said things about bipartisanship, it's because Congress was projected to be divided. The Senate was not in play until Biden opened up a double digit lead.

If Dems are fortunate enough to roll into next Jan with all 3 chambers, I'm sure they won't just give that mandate away to be nice.

[Pointgod]

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[HarthorneWingo]

What is his position exactly? That he's open to working with Republicans to secure the things that he thinks will help the American people?

Sounds like this guy

Watch on YouTube

Meh, not really. Bernie said he’d work with Trump on those issues effecting working and middle class families if he’s so inclined to go in that direction but would fight tooth and nail on issues of racism and sexism.

Yes, that's the definition of bipartisanship. Working with the other side if doing so is beneficial to what you want to see accomplished. It's literally the same approach you're trying to ding Biden for.

I bet you don't have any videos of Biden saying he will work with Republicans only on the things they care about, or to specifically promote racism and sexism, do you?

Let’s not get in debate about whether Biden or Bernie has fought for the working and middle class more. It won’t go well for your guy.

Well, there is no need to debate it. The voters of the primary election have already decided who they want to be represented by.

Bernie also many times called Trump “the most dangerous President in our nation’s history.

Let’s see what Joe had to say about Trump when interviewed by Nicole Wallace on MSNBC and compare it to Bernie’s statement.

Read on Twitter

?s=20

Watch on YouTube

Well, first off, "yo yo" is an insult.

Secondly, Biden has called Trump a racist, a coward, and criticized him many other ways. A simple Google search yields more evidence of that than I care to post. Criticism of Trump isn't in short supply. Bernie didn't go out on a limb to say something bad about Trump.

All of this is to say, that Biden has never promised to court Republicans or to promote Republican ideas over Democrat ones, or anything that you're accusing him of.

He just said he doesn't hate them and he's willing to work with them. Just like Bernie did when he repeatedly offered to work with Trump. Just like many other politicians who are trying to brand themselves as uniters say.

When Biden said things about bipartisanship, it's because Congress was projected to be divided. The Senate was not in play until Biden opened up a double digit lead.

If Dems are fortunate enough to roll into next Jan with all 3 chambers, I'm sure they won't just give that mandate away to be nice.

This is crazy. Bipartisanship means “compromise.” Just look back on the last 12 years. When have the Republicans come to the negotiating table in good faith? When have they reached to Democrats in the spirit of bipartisanship?

This reminds me of the story of the turtle and the scorpion who wanted to cross the stream.

[GONYK]

Meh, not really. Bernie said he’d work with Trump on those issues effecting working and middle class families if he’s so inclined to go in that direction but would fight tooth and nail on issues of racism and sexism.

Yes, that's the definition of bipartisanship. Working with the other side if doing so is beneficial to what you want to see accomplished. It's literally the same approach you're trying to ding Biden for.

I bet you don't have any videos of Biden saying he will work with Republicans only on the things they care about, or to specifically promote racism and sexism, do you?

Let’s not get in debate about whether Biden or Bernie has fought for the working and middle class more. It won’t go well for your guy.

Well, there is no need to debate it. The voters of the primary election have already decided who they want to be represented by.

Bernie also many times called Trump “the most dangerous President in our nation’s history.

Let’s see what Joe had to say about Trump when interviewed by Nicole Wallace on MSNBC and compare it to Bernie’s statement.

Read on Twitter

?s=20

Watch on YouTube

Well, first off, "yo yo" is an insult.

Secondly, Biden has called Trump a racist, a coward, and criticized him many other ways. A simple Google search yields more evidence of that than I care to post. Criticism of Trump isn't in short supply. Bernie didn't go out on a limb to say something bad about Trump.

All of this is to say, that Biden has never promised to court Republicans or to promote Republican ideas over Democrat ones, or anything that you're accusing him of.

He just said he doesn't hate them and he's willing to work with them. Just like Bernie did when he repeatedly offered to work with Trump. Just like many other politicians who are trying to brand themselves as uniters say.

When Biden said things about bipartisanship, it's because Congress was projected to be divided. The Senate was not in play until Biden opened up a double digit lead.

If Dems are fortunate enough to roll into next Jan with all 3 chambers, I'm sure they won't just give that mandate away to be nice.

This is crazy. Bipartisanship means “compromise.” Just look back on the last 12 years. When have the Republicans come to the negotiating table in good faith? When have they reached to Democrats in the spirit of bipartisanship?

This reminds me of the story of the turtle and the scorpion who wanted to cross the stream.

I guess you better hope enough people vote for Biden so that Dems don't have to court Republican votes then.

[Clyde_Style]

If Dems are fortunate enough to roll into next Jan with all 3 chambers, I'm sure they won't just give that mandate away to be nice.

If the dems get all 3 chambers, they are going to avenge Merrick Garland and dominate the GOP as they should. Biden will still be diplomatic about it, but he's not going to throw them many bones just to be nice.

[Clyde_Style]

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[HarthorneWingo]

Yes, that's the definition of bipartisanship. Working with the other side if doing so is beneficial to what you want to see accomplished. It's literally the same approach you're trying to ding Biden for.

I bet you don't have any videos of Biden saying he will work with Republicans only on the things they care about, or to specifically promote racism and sexism, do you?



Well, there is no need to debate it. The voters of the primary election have already decided who they want to be represented by.

Well, first off, "yo yo" is an insult.

Secondly, Biden has called Trump a racist, a coward, and criticized him many other ways. A simple Google search yields more evidence of that than I care to post. Criticism of Trump isn't in short supply. Bernie didn't go out on a limb to say something bad about Trump.

All of this is to say, that Biden has never promised to court Republicans or to promote Republican ideas over Democrat ones, or anything that you're accusing him of.

He just said he doesn't hate them and he's willing to work with them. Just like Bernie did when he repeatedly offered to work with Trump. Just like many other politicians who are trying to brand themselves as uniters say.

When Biden said things about bipartisanship, it's because Congress was projected to be divided. The Senate was not in play until Biden opened up a double digit lead.

If Dems are fortunate enough to roll into next Jan with all 3 chambers, I'm sure they won't just give that mandate away to be nice.

This is crazy. Bipartisanship means “compromise.” Just look back on the last 12 years. When have the Republicans come to the negotiating table in good faith? When have they reached to Democrats in the spirit of bipartisanship?

This reminds me of the story of the turtle and the scorpion who wanted to cross the stream.

I guess you better hope enough people vote for Biden so that Dems don't have to court Republican votes then.

No, man. I'm afraid that it's Biden's burden to reach out to Democratic voters - particularly the Democratic base voters and not Republicans voters - to create the enthusiasm to get them to come out and vote. Just like with Clinton. I can see that lessons of even the recent past are hard learned.

Are you already preparing to blame "Bernie Bros" for causing Biden to lose this one too?

[HarthorneWingo]

If Dems are fortunate enough to roll into next Jan with all 3 chambers, I'm sure they won't just give that mandate away to be nice.

It's not about "giving away the mandate away" it's about coming to the table with your boldest and strongest programs without the concern that they will join or not, unlike how Obama came to the table without a even a public option in '08 despite having all three chambers of gov't. How many times did Obama extend his hand in the name of bipartisanship only to have it spat upon by Mitch McConnell and the Freedom Caucus?

Also, they've pulled us to the far right for 4 decades. It's time to pull the rope back if we have the numbers. And fck the filibuster, that's gone.

[GONYK]

This is crazy. Bipartisanship means “compromise.” Just look back on the last 12 years. When have the Republicans come to the negotiating table in good faith? When have they reached to Democrats in the spirit of bipartisanship?

This reminds me of the story of the turtle and the scorpion who wanted to cross the stream.

I guess you better hope enough people vote for Biden so that Dems don't have to court Republican votes then.

No, man. I'm afraid that it's Biden's burden to reach out to Democratic voters - particularly the Democratic base voters and not Republicans voters - to create the enthusiasm to get them to come out and vote. Just like with Clinton. I can see that lessons are hard learned.

Are you already preparing to blame "Bernie Bros" for causing Biden to lose this one too?

Bernie Bros are the reason Bernie lost. I think everyone knows better than to count on them.

Hence, John Kasich making an appeal to Republican voters, who are traditionally much more reliable.

But your logic makes no sense. Vote for Biden, and he might work with Republicans on some things.

Don't vote for him, and Republicans get to control everything.

[GONYK]

If Dems are fortunate enough to roll into next Jan with all 3 chambers, I'm sure they won't just give that mandate away to be nice.

It's not about "giving away the mandate away" it's about coming to the table with your boldest and strongest programs without the concern that they will join or not, unlike how Obama came to the table without a even a public option in '08 despite having all three chambers of gov't. How many times did Obama extend his hand in the name of bipartisanship only to have it spat upon by Mitch McConnell and the Freedom Caucus?

Also, they've pulled us to the far right for 4 decades. It's time to pull the rope back if we have the numbers. And fck the filibuster, that's gone.

No, it's about coming to the table with the boldest policies you can get passed.

Even if Bernie was elected, you wouldn't get everything because there are still Senators like Manchin, Sinema, Warner, King, etc... who are not going to blank check a bold progressive agenda. So now you have to moderate your bill or you have to wait until they get primaried and possibly lose. By then, you probably don't have control of all 3 chambers.

You can try to get rid of the filibuster, but I don't think every Dem will sign on to that, so I hope your margins in the Senate are good enough.

This is the way government works. It's a game of compromise as you make incremental progress towards your goal. You are not going to reshape the country over night. I think we are going to start pulling things back to the left under Biden though.

[HarthorneWingo]

If Dems are fortunate enough to roll into next Jan with all 3 chambers, I'm sure they won't just give that mandate away to be nice.

It's not about "giving away the mandate away" it's about coming to the table with your boldest and strongest programs without the concern that they will join or not, unlike how Obama came to the table without a even a public option in '08 despite having all three chambers of gov't. How many times did Obama extend his hand in the name of bipartisanship only to have it spat upon by Mitch McConnell and the Freedom Caucus?

Also, they've pulled us to the far right for 4 decades. It's time to pull the rope back if we have the numbers. And fck the filibuster, that's gone.

No, it's about coming to the table with the boldest policies you can get passed.

Even if Bernie was elected, you wouldn't get everything because there are still Senators like Manchin, Sinema, Warner, King, etc... who are not going to blank check a bold progressive agenda. So now you have to moderate your bill or you have to wait until they get primaried and possibly lose. By then, you probably don't have control of all 3 chambers.

You can try to get rid of the filibuster, but I don't think every Dem will sign on to that, so I hope your margins in the Senate are good enough.

This is the way government works. It's a game of compromise as you make incremental progress towards your goal. You are not going to reshape the country over night. I think we are going to start pulling things back to the left under Biden though.

Oh really? How’s that been going for you? Neoliberal politics over the past 40 years has lead us to the Land of Trump. Your pansy ass politics allowed Republicans to rape this country. You want more of the same. I don’t. Have fun working with Mitch McConnell.

We’ll see how bold Joe goes with both chambers of Congress. He’s already said he would veto M4A if passed. So that’s promising news.

It’s okay. Biden will be gone in 4 years and Kamala will never get to be POTUS.

[GONYK]

It's not about "giving away the mandate away" it's about coming to the table with your boldest and strongest programs without the concern that they will join or not, unlike how Obama came to the table without a even a public option in '08 despite having all three chambers of gov't. How many times did Obama extend his hand in the name of bipartisanship only to have it spat upon by Mitch McConnell and the Freedom Caucus?

Also, they've pulled us to the far right for 4 decades. It's time to pull the rope back if we have the numbers. And fck the filibuster, that's gone.

No, it's about coming to the table with the boldest policies you can get passed.

Even if Bernie was elected, you wouldn't get everything because there are still Senators like Manchin, Sinema, Warner, King, etc... who are not going to blank check a bold progressive agenda. So now you have to moderate your bill or you have to wait until they get primaried and possibly lose. By then, you probably don't have control of all 3 chambers.

You can try to get rid of the filibuster, but I don't think every Dem will sign on to that, so I hope your margins in the Senate are good enough.

This is the way government works. It's a game of compromise as you make incremental progress towards your goal. You are not going to reshape the country over night. I think we are going to start pulling things back to the left under Biden though.

Oh really? How’s that been going for you? Neoliberal politics over the past 40 years has lead us to the Land of Trump. Your pansy ass politics allowed Republicans to rape this country. You want more of the same. I don’t. Have fun working with Mitch McConnell.

We’ll see how bold Joe goes with both chambers of Congress. He’s already said he would veto M4A if passed. So that’s promising news.

It’s okay. Biden will be gone in 4 years and Kamala will never get to be POTUS.

It's not about what I want or don't want. It's literally how government works. To deny reality doesn't change it.

So in your fantasy world, Bernie would have been sworn in on January and you'd have M4A and Green New Deal 2 weeks later? All the "neoliberals" that Bernie openly ran against will have signed on without any reservation?

We haven't even gotten to working with Republicans yet.

[Clyde_Style]

No, it's about coming to the table with the boldest policies you can get passed.

Even if Bernie was elected, you wouldn't get everything because there are still Senators like Manchin, Sinema, Warner, King, etc... who are not going to blank check a bold progressive agenda. So now you have to moderate your bill or you have to wait until they get primaried and possibly lose. By then, you probably don't have control of all 3 chambers.

You can try to get rid of the filibuster, but I don't think every Dem will sign on to that, so I hope your margins in the Senate are good enough.

This is the way government works. It's a game of compromise as you make incremental progress towards your goal. You are not going to reshape the country over night. I think we are going to start pulling things back to the left under Biden though.

Oh really? How’s that been going for you? Neoliberal politics over the past 40 years has lead us to the Land of Trump. Your pansy ass politics allowed Republicans to rape this country. You want more of the same. I don’t. Have fun working with Mitch McConnell.

We’ll see how bold Joe goes with both chambers of Congress. He’s already said he would veto M4A if passed. So that’s promising news.

It’s okay. Biden will be gone in 4 years and Kamala will never get to be POTUS.

It's not about what I want or don't want. It's literally how government works. To deny reality doesn't change it.

So in your fantasy world, Bernie would have been sworn in on January and you'd have M4A and Green New Deal 2 weeks later? All the "neoliberals" that Bernie openly ran against will have signed on without any reservation?

We haven't even gotten to working with Republicans yet.

Wait, what? I thought this was the fantasy football thread, not fantasy politics.

[Phish Tank]

It's not about "giving away the mandate away" it's about coming to the table with your boldest and strongest programs without the concern that they will join or not, unlike how Obama came to the table without a even a public option in '08 despite having all three chambers of gov't. How many times did Obama extend his hand in the name of bipartisanship only to have it spat upon by Mitch McConnell and the Freedom Caucus?

Also, they've pulled us to the far right for 4 decades. It's time to pull the rope back if we have the numbers. And fck the filibuster, that's gone.

No, it's about coming to the table with the boldest policies you can get passed.

Even if Bernie was elected, you wouldn't get everything because there are still Senators like Manchin, Sinema, Warner, King, etc... who are not going to blank check a bold progressive agenda. So now you have to moderate your bill or you have to wait until they get primaried and possibly lose. By then, you probably don't have control of all 3 chambers.

You can try to get rid of the filibuster, but I don't think every Dem will sign on to that, so I hope your margins in the Senate are good enough.

This is the way government works. It's a game of compromise as you make incremental progress towards your goal. You are not going to reshape the country over night. I think we are going to start pulling things back to the left under Biden though.

Oh really? How’s that been going for you? Neoliberal politics over the past 40 years has lead us to the Land of Trump. Your pansy ass politics allowed Republicans to rape this country. You want more of the same. I don’t. Have fun working with Mitch McConnell.

We’ll see how bold Joe goes with both chambers of Congress. He’s already said he would veto M4A if passed. So that’s promising news.

It’s okay. Biden will be gone in 4 years and Kamala will never get to be POTUS.

Oh if M4A gets passed, there's absolutely ZERO chance Biden vetoes that. None. Problem is getting to the stage where M4A passes. It'll probably run into various quirks and roadblocks because it'll need to go through reconciliation, which means that a nice bill often gets muddied up and watered down like crazy.

Then the next goal is to remove the filibuster, which you need 2/3 of the Senate to agree to.....even if we win every single open senate race, would the Dems have a 2/3 majority? Highly doubt it.

[GONYK]

No, it's about coming to the table with the boldest policies you can get passed.

Even if Bernie was elected, you wouldn't get everything because there are still Senators like Manchin, Sinema, Warner, King, etc... who are not going to blank check a bold progressive agenda. So now you have to moderate your bill or you have to wait until they get primaried and possibly lose. By then, you probably don't have control of all 3 chambers.

You can try to get rid of the filibuster, but I don't think every Dem will sign on to that, so I hope your margins in the Senate are good enough.

This is the way government works. It's a game of compromise as you make incremental progress towards your goal. You are not going to reshape the country over night. I think we are going to start pulling things back to the left under Biden though.

Oh really? How’s that been going for you? Neoliberal politics over the past 40 years has lead us to the Land of Trump. Your pansy ass politics allowed Republicans to rape this country. You want more of the same. I don’t. Have fun working with Mitch McConnell.

We’ll see how bold Joe goes with both chambers of Congress. He’s already said he would veto M4A if passed. So that’s promising news.

It’s okay. Biden will be gone in 4 years and Kamala will never get to be POTUS.

Oh if M4A gets passed, there's absolutely ZERO chance Biden vetoes that. None. Problem is getting to the stage where M4A passes. It'll probably run into various quirks and roadblocks because it'll need to go through reconciliation, which means that a nice bill often gets muddied up and watered down like crazy.

Then the next goal is to remove the filibuster, which you need 2/3 of the Senate to agree to.....even if we win every single open senate race, would the Dems have a 2/3 majority? Highly doubt it.

Pretty massive "IF" though.