***Around The League 2019-2020 Thread***

[Mamba4Goat]

Thibs not being in Minnesota is definitely a blessing. I still can’t believe he was sought after.

[Klomp]

I believe Thibs is going to turn the Knicks around and make us look even more incompetent for not being able to work things out with him here. Ryan Saunders what a JOKE.

How do you describe turning around? Making the playoffs? OK sure. A threat to win the East? Don't see that happening.

Being a joke is a far cry from being relevant and in the playoffs. I would take it.
I would rather have a team full of believers, a core with playoff experience, and preparing for the moment the right move or the stars align and gets them over the edge.

I think the stars aligning is harder than people think. Hardest thing for a franchise to do is find a star player, especially if you're treadmilling while looking.

[Calinks]

I'm still shocked at how much better the Grizzlies are than us. Came out of nowhere.

[Neeva]

I'm still shocked at how much better the Grizzlies are than us. Came out of nowhere.

It happens when the league throws you a bone and you move up in the draft two years in a row in strong drafts and get two future stars, wolves never move up.

[Murphs56]

Frank Isola DM'd me about a Thibs Hatred post I had in response to one of his tweets. He's really all-in on the hire and refuses to accept that idea that Thibs is responsible for the demise of the team based on the entire botching of the Jimmy Butler situation. I cited numerous articles from the Athletic detailing how Thibs schemes were dated, he continued his trend of having starters play too many minutes and was seen by numerous sources in the organization as a miserable person to be around but he wasn't having it. He agreed to my proposal that in 2-3 years when the situation in NY implodes because of Thibs he has to give me a shoutout on Around the Horn or whatever television media he's doing at the time.

[Calinks]

Frank Isola DM'd me about a Thibs Hatred post I had in response to one of his tweets. He's really all-in on the hire and refuses to accept that idea that Thibs is responsible for the demise of the team based on the entire botching of the Jimmy Butler situation. I cited numerous articles from the Athletic detailing how Thibs schemes were dated, he continued his trend of having starters play too many minutes and was seen by numerous sources in the organization as a miserable person to be around but he wasn't having it. He agreed to my proposal that in 2-3 years when the situation in NY implodes because of Thibs he has to give me a shoutout on Around the Horn or whatever television media he's doing at the time.

LOL did he really DM back and forth with you? That seems like going over the top. Guess he feels strongly about it. I am seeing a lot of people thinking pretty positively about this. I thought Thibs was done after what happened here, at least for a long time but I was wrong, that's for sure. Didn't think anyone would want to touch him. Guess people really think it was just our players and ownership that failed hard.

[karch34]

Thibs will likely get Knicks to playoffs. Whether it's a short term fix and 8 spot or something more is where it gets interesting.

[Murphs56]

Frank Isola DM'd me about a Thibs Hatred post I had in response to one of his tweets. He's really all-in on the hire and refuses to accept that idea that Thibs is responsible for the demise of the team based on the entire botching of the Jimmy Butler situation. I cited numerous articles from the Athletic detailing how Thibs schemes were dated, he continued his trend of having starters play too many minutes and was seen by numerous sources in the organization as a miserable person to be around but he wasn't having it. He agreed to my proposal that in 2-3 years when the situation in NY implodes because of Thibs he has to give me a shoutout on Around the Horn or whatever television media he's doing at the time.

LOL did he really DM back and forth with you? That seems like going over the top. Guess he feels strongly about it. I am seeing a lot of people thinking pretty positively about this. I thought Thibs was done after what happened here, at least for a long time but I was wrong, that's for sure. Didn't think anyone would want to touch him. Guess people really think it was just our players and ownership that failed hard.

Yes, he went back and forth with me for a decent amount of time and ended each reply with "No offense, you don't know the league." Obviously, he can always big time me with those replies since he's an actual NBA writer with real sources and I'm just a fan making arguments about Thibs antiquated defensive philosophies and citing articles detailing how he ruined the organization.

[Neeva]

Thibs will likely get Knicks to playoffs. Whether it's a short term fix and 8 spot or something more is where it gets interesting.

It’s not that hard to do in the east.

[Calinks]

I think Thibs will be better suited to just being a coach. His lack of interpersonal skills really seemed to cause friction in the front office. At least now he can just focus on one aspect. I always did like his draft picks when he made them though.

[Neeva]

I think Thibs will be better suited to just being a coach. His lack of interpersonal skills really seemed to cause friction in the front office. At least now he can just focus on one aspect. I always did like his draft picks when he made them though.

Even the Patton over Collins, Anonuby, Kuzma pick?

[Murphs56]

Well if nothing else Taj Gibson is back in the rotation.

[Jedzz]

How do you describe turning around? Making the playoffs? OK sure. A threat to win the East? Don't see that happening.

Being a joke is a far cry from being relevant and in the playoffs. I would take it.
I would rather have a team full of believers, a core with playoff experience, and preparing for the moment the right move or the stars align and gets them over the edge.

I think the stars aligning is harder than people think. Hardest thing for a franchise to do is find a star player, especially if you're treadmilling while looking.

Why is it any harder while treadmilling? It's been shown, plenty of really good players have come from mid round or much later. The teams that have been treadmilling at times sure have more finals trips and wins than Wolves do.

This team has not been treadmilling in the first rounds of the playoffs for any amount of years. If it was so much better to build from the lotto this team surely had the chances to prove that.

Toronto example I think is a good one. Treadmilled long enough it got the coach fired. One opportunity they didn't expect opens up. Kawhi was open to going there temporarily in trade since they were treadmilling on the edge to the point he felt he could get them over. Can't get that opportunity when purposely existing in the lotto.

[minimus]

I think Thibs will be better suited to just being a coach. His lack of interpersonal skills really seemed to cause friction in the front office. At least now he can just focus on one aspect. I always did like his draft picks when he made them though.

While I like both Dunn, KBD, Okogie and Patton as prospects, I think Thibs should not be hired as HC anymore. He worked as POBO, he assembled that roster to serve his vision of basketball, both in offense and defense. Here is the list of players he brought here:

2016-17:
* - Cole Aldrich. 21mil/3yrs. Reason: size. Current status: out of NBA
* - Jordan Hill. 8mil/2yrs. Reason: size. Current status: out of NBA
* - Omri Casspi. Vetmin. Reason: shooting. Current status: out of NBA
* - Lance Stephenson. Vetmin. Reason: playmaking. Current status: out of NBA
* - Brandon Rush. 3.5mil. Reason: shooting. Current status: out of NBA
* - Dunn. 5th pick. Reason: size at PG, defense. Current status: backup

2017-18
* - Wiggins. 150 mil/5yrs. Reason: size at wings, scoring. Current status: 4th starter in GSW.
* - Bulter. 38mil/2yrs. Reason: leadership, defense, playmaking. Current status: leading MIA in playoffs.
* - Teague. 57 mil/3yrs. Reason: playmaking. Current status: backup of Trae
* - Dieng. 64mil/4yrs. Reason: size, defense. Current status: backup
* - Gibson. 8mil/2yrs. Reason: leadership, defense. Current status: starter in NYK.
* - JC. 4.2mil. Reason: instant scoring. Current status: end of bench NBA player
* - Shabazz Muhammad. 40mil/4yrs (thanks God he was so dumb to decline it!!!). Reason: size, instant scoring. Current status: out of NBA
* - MGH. Min. Reason: defense. Current status: out of NBA
* - Amelie Jefferson. Min. Reason: rebounding??? Current status: out of NBA
* - Lance Stephenson. Vetmin. Reason: playmaking. Current status: out of NBA
* - Anthony Brown. Vetmin. Reason: shooting. Current status: out of NBA
* - Patton. 16th pick. Rookie deal. Reason: size, versatilty. Current status: gleague prospect, end of NBA bench player
* - Rose. Vetmin. Reason: playmaking, instant scoring, leadership. Current status: starter in DET

2018-19
* - Nunnaly. Min. Reason: shooting. Current status: out of NBA
* - Deng. Min. Reason: leadership, defense. Current status: out of NBA
* - KBD. Rookie. Reason: versatility. end of bench NBA player
* - Okogie. Min. Reason: defense. Current status: NBA backup
* - Reynolds. Min. Reason: shooting. Current status: out of NBA
* - Canaan. Min. Reason: shooting. Current status: out of NBA
* - Terrell. Min. Reason: shooting. Current status: out of NBA
* - Saric. Rookie deal. Reason: shooting. Current status: starter in NBA
* - RoCo. 46mil/4yrs. Reason: defense, shooting. Current status: starter in NBA contender

If we look at these nubmers it is easy to see that:

* - Thibs invested a lot of money trying to get size advantage at many positions (Aldrich, Hill, Dieng, Wiggins, Dunn, Muhammad, Patton). He even used out of position Bjelica as SF. This part of his vision failed. Size did not provide any advantage. It was very clear against HOU in playoff, who destroyed MIN defense. It was funny and sad that Thibs brought here some players but could not use them because NBA has changed. But Thibs was too stubborn to see that guys like Aldrich, Dieng and Hill are unplayable now.
* - Thibs gave a lot of playing time to his veterans, who were not in long term plans AND were not good passers (Rose, JC, Gibson). That playing time was crucial to speed up development of young players
* - No one from young player group from draft or gleague team, developed into NBA starter. Major part of them are out of NBA.
* - In comparison with other areas he did not invested enough resources in shooters. He did not value shooting enough
* - the only two players who showed good progress were not re-signed to extensions (Bjelica, Tyus)

In a nutshell, that was Thibs vision of basketball. But if we look at Butler playing well in MIA, after preferring MIA over PHI we can see the biggest factor is modern offense that Spoelstra is running. Multiple shooters, multiple ballhandlers, a mobile undersized, passing bigman. Mostly one big - three big wings - big ballhandler lineup. Sounds familiar right? That is how you use size advantage at every position in current NBA. Can Thibs be that person who run a modern NBA offense/defense as HC? That a big question mark for me.

I highly doubt that Thibs will turn NYK franchise as HC. But it might be that a competent GM will provide him with enough right resources to build around. But in NYK Thibs does not have same collection of assets we had in MIN when he was hired. He had LaVine, Wiggins, KAT, Rubio, Bjelica, Jones, Dieng, Muhammad, and top5 pick. Their GM wont be able to pull another Butler trade right now. The only way is drafting wisely, develop gleague players, develop undrafted players, i.e. work in the areas that are not Thibs strength at all. They might get a steal drafting a star in top5 draft. Everyone can have this luck, but to turn whole organisation into playoff team they need a very smart and lucky GM, who can build all processes from scratch: scouting, player development, communication, load management, PR etc. Again all areas where Thibs is not strong.

[KGdaBom]

Thibs not being in Minnesota is definitely a blessing. I still can’t believe he was sought after.

Because he really knows his stuff.

[Klomp]

Why is it any harder while treadmilling? It's been shown, plenty of really good players have come from mid round or much later. The teams that have been treadmilling at times sure have more finals trips and wins than Wolves do.

This team has not been treadmilling in the first rounds of the playoffs for any amount of years. If it was so much better to build from the lotto this team surely had the chances to prove that.

Toronto example I think is a good one. Treadmilled long enough it got the coach fired. One opportunity they didn't expect opens up. Kawhi was open to going there temporarily in trade since they were treadmilling on the edge to the point he felt he could get them over. Can't get that opportunity when purposely existing in the lotto.

I don't consider the Raptors as an example of treadmilling when Leonard came just because they hadn't won it all or been in the Finals. Three straight years of 50 wins and a playoff series win. That was also a pretty special circumstance what was going on with the Spurs at the time.

The only real example of finding a star while treadmilling that I can think of off the top of my sleep-deprived head at 6 am is Milwaukee.

The lottery isn't foolproof, as we've seen here. But as far as finding star players, I find it much more of a feasible method than trying to attract one in free agency or find one later on in the draft.

[packforfreedom]

how can anybody still defend? He single handedly set us back a couple of years and created an atmosphere of misery in the franchise.

He will fail in NYC as he failed here.

[Jedzz]

Why is it any harder while treadmilling? It's been shown, plenty of really good players have come from mid round or much later. The teams that have been treadmilling at times sure have more finals trips and wins than Wolves do.

This team has not been treadmilling in the first rounds of the playoffs for any amount of years. If it was so much better to build from the lotto this team surely had the chances to prove that.

Toronto example I think is a good one. Treadmilled long enough it got the coach fired. One opportunity they didn't expect opens up. Kawhi was open to going there temporarily in trade since they were treadmilling on the edge to the point he felt he could get them over. Can't get that opportunity when purposely existing in the lotto.

I don't consider the Raptors as an example of treadmilling when Leonard came just because they hadn't won it all or been in the Finals. Three straight years of 50 wins and a playoff series win. That was also a pretty special circumstance what was going on with the Spurs at the time.

The only real example of finding a star while treadmilling that I can think of off the top of my sleep-deprived head at 6 am is Milwaukee.

The lottery isn't foolproof, as we've seen here. But as far as finding star players, I find it much more of a feasible method than trying to attract one in free agency or find one later on in the draft.

I have no idea why you wouldn't consider Toronto a treadmilling team back then. The Kawhi infusion is exactly the kind of move a team treadmilling without the ability to get over the edge needs.

Let's hear your goal posts for what is and what isn't treadmilling then.

[Jedzz]

how can anybody still defend? He single handedly set us back a couple of years and created an atmosphere of misery in the franchise.

He will fail in NYC as he failed here.

The franchise, front office and some internals also impacting players, and even some fans created the atmosphere by not buying into what he was doing. It was always a half measure bringing him in. They gave him full control "job roles" anyway. But they did not let him clear the front office or assistant coaches. it was always an internal push to get Ryan the job as soon as possible. If you don't want to accept they are all responsible for some of that internal angst than that's just your rosey opinion. Any other team handing over GM and Coaching control to one guy will have everyone buying in or getting shipped out and replaced. All anyone has to do is look at the "head coaching search" that occurred after Thibs was gone to confirm. If the interim coach and results was so bad that they needed Thibs, and then supposedly Thibs and results was so bad they needed to can him, then everyone from those eras needed replacing by then. That wasn't the case because that was never the case.

Thibs is a rough character and he's stubborn about his playing time issue. Aside from that he's a decent coach which brought winning back here and didn't deserve a bunch of jr high characters masquerading as fans crying about whatever every chance they could get.

[Klomp]

I have no idea why you wouldn't consider Toronto a treadmilling team back then. The Kawhi infusion is exactly the kind of move a team treadmilling without the ability to get over the edge needs.

Let's hear your goal posts for what is and what isn't treadmilling then.

Treadmilling to me is being on the edge between making the playoffs or not. The post-Karl to pre-Budenholzer Bucks would be an example of a treadmilling team. 7 playoffs in 15 years, but never more than 46 wins and never really bottomed out either.

There's a level between treadmilling and championship contenders, where those Raptor teams would've been before Leonard.