Another Atlanta Plan, w/ Boston, Orlando

[azuresou1]

Seems like both teams would rather keep their guy.

Re: Hayward I thought Boston might be willing to move him for cap relief? If so we could just absorb his contract.

[Godaddycurse]

Seems like both teams would rather keep their guy.

Re: Hayward I thought Boston might be willing to move him for cap relief? If so we could just absorb his contract.

I believe they will move him for (cheaper) starter + partial cap relief, but they are not looking to dump him for nothing because they are win now. I figure capela makes sense because there's a bunch of centers on the FA w/ little to no competition for their services, while there is a lack of good wings/playmakers available.

[hugepatsfan]

I don't think Boston would want Capela. But I could see them using ATL's cap space if they want Hayward.

BOS gets: Gallinari (3 year S&T deal)
ATL gets: Hayward (taken into cap space)
OKC gets: trade exception

Let's say Gallinari signs for about $16M in year 1 (with rising salaries the next 2 years). That would free Boston to use their MLE on a defensive big like Derrick Favors (after dumping Kanter in separate deal) while avoiding the tax.

Kemba / Smart
Brown / Langford
Tatum / Ojeleye
Gallinari / G Williams
Favors / Theis / R Williams

[CP War Hawks]

Isaac is very nice, but he's shown to be more of a Draymond opposed to an AD far as impact. Otherwise I'd love to match him with Collins and ask him to add 10 pounds to man the five.

[Buzzard]

Not a fan of any of these deals for Atlanta. I don’t see them looking to add multiple 30+ yr old players to their younger roster.

Also yet another guy Collins has been a good bit better than yet Hawks have to add a pick too? No thanks. Would not trade Collins for Isaac straight up.

Career:
John Collins: 16.2 points, 8.8 rebounds, 1.1 blocks -
.634 TS%, 21.0 PER, 1.58 WS/48, 1.1 BPM, 3.9 VORP

Jonathan Isaac: 9.3 point, 5.5 rebounds, 1.5 blocks -
.529 TS%, 13.6 PER, 0.89 WS/48, 0.1 BPM, 1.9 VORP

People are drinking a lot of upside kool aid on Isaac at 22 but in almost the very same sentence want to declare Collins peaked at 22. This proves the bias and poor quality in some fans ability to apply reasoning for similar age players. Isaac at 22 has great upside, Collins at 22 has poor upside. I see their views as lets throw good sense out the window and go with wishy washy as hell.

Pass all day on most any trade that involves Collins for Isaac.

think it just depends on the role. Collins a better scorer than Isaac right now and likely in the future. Isaac is already a better defender and someone that can anchor a defense right now and projected as DPOY candidate from multiple sources.

like i said, just depends on the role you need.

Your reasoning is a little flawed and seems to lean more to Orlando. Orlando was one of the better defending teams in the NBA even without Isaac a big part of the year. But they were one of the worse offensive teams all season. Collins would be a great shot in the arm for them; I have no doubt about that.

The Hawks on the other hand were bottom 5 in both offense and defense. When Collins came back they moved up to 15th in offensive rating. The Hawks added a rim protector in Capela and its obvious from their poor offensive performance, they cannot afford to be without Collins.

Orlando is in a difficult spot with Isaac. Gordon makes them a more explosive offensive team but it seems their fan base favors Isaac. Honestly, I think they need to swap Gordon or Isaac with maybe a pick to move up and grab a point guard. Maybe trade for a vet point guard. I do not think Fultz is the answer.

[zaymon]

People are drinking a lot of upside kool aid on Isaac at 22 but in almost the very same sentence want to declare Collins peaked at 22. This proves the bias and poor quality in some fans ability to apply reasoning for similar age players. Isaac at 22 has great upside, Collins at 22 has poor upside. I see their views as lets throw good sense out the window and go with wishy washy as hell.

Pass all day on most any trade that involves Collins for Isaac.

think it just depends on the role. Collins a better scorer than Isaac right now and likely in the future. Isaac is already a better defender and someone that can anchor a defense right now and projected as DPOY candidate from multiple sources.

like i said, just depends on the role you need.

Your reasoning is a little flawed and seems to lean more to Orlando. Orlando was one of the better defending teams in the NBA even without Isaac a big part of the year. But they were one of the worse offensive teams all season. Collins would be a great shot in the arm for them; I have no doubt about that.

The Hawks on the other hand were bottom 5 in both offense and defense. When Collins came back they moved up to 15th in offensive rating. The Hawks added a rim protector in Capela and its obvious from their poor offensive performance, they cannot afford to be without Collins.

Orlando is in a difficult spot with Isaac. Gordon makes them a more explosive offensive team but it seems their fan base favors Isaac. Honestly, I think they need to swap Gordon or Isaac with maybe a pick to move up and grab a point guard. Maybe trade for a vet point guard. I do not think Fultz is the answer.

Orlando Magic defensive rating pre all star- 107.4 (nr.7 ) post allstar- 115.9 (nr. 26).
Isaac is one of 3 versatile forwards in the nba who you can build your defense around. Other two are Giannis Antetokounmpo and Anthony Davis.
John Collins is very good offensive player, but not good enough to build your offense around, and his defense is very problematic with regards to team construction.

[shakes0]

think it just depends on the role. Collins a better scorer than Isaac right now and likely in the future. Isaac is already a better defender and someone that can anchor a defense right now and projected as DPOY candidate from multiple sources.

like i said, just depends on the role you need.

Your reasoning is a little flawed and seems to lean more to Orlando. Orlando was one of the better defending teams in the NBA even without Isaac a big part of the year. But they were one of the worse offensive teams all season. Collins would be a great shot in the arm for them; I have no doubt about that.

The Hawks on the other hand were bottom 5 in both offense and defense. When Collins came back they moved up to 15th in offensive rating. The Hawks added a rim protector in Capela and its obvious from their poor offensive performance, they cannot afford to be without Collins.

Orlando is in a difficult spot with Isaac. Gordon makes them a more explosive offensive team but it seems their fan base favors Isaac. Honestly, I think they need to swap Gordon or Isaac with maybe a pick to move up and grab a point guard. Maybe trade for a vet point guard. I do not think Fultz is the answer.

Orlando Magic defensive rating pre all star- 107.4 (nr.7 ) post allstar- 115.9 (nr. 26).
Isaac is one of 3 versatile forwards in the nba who you can build your defense around. Other two are Giannis Antetokounmpo and Anthony Davis.
John Collins is very good offensive player, but not good enough to build your offense around, and his defense is very problematic with regards to team construction.

AD, Giannis.........Isaac.

One of these is not like the other, one of these does not belong.

[Buzzard]

think it just depends on the role. Collins a better scorer than Isaac right now and likely in the future. Isaac is already a better defender and someone that can anchor a defense right now and projected as DPOY candidate from multiple sources.

like i said, just depends on the role you need.

Your reasoning is a little flawed and seems to lean more to Orlando. Orlando was one of the better defending teams in the NBA even without Isaac a big part of the year. But they were one of the worse offensive teams all season. Collins would be a great shot in the arm for them; I have no doubt about that.

The Hawks on the other hand were bottom 5 in both offense and defense. When Collins came back they moved up to 15th in offensive rating. The Hawks added a rim protector in Capela and its obvious from their poor offensive performance, they cannot afford to be without Collins.

Orlando is in a difficult spot with Isaac. Gordon makes them a more explosive offensive team but it seems their fan base favors Isaac. Honestly, I think they need to swap Gordon or Isaac with maybe a pick to move up and grab a point guard. Maybe trade for a vet point guard. I do not think Fultz is the answer.

Orlando Magic defensive rating pre all star- 107.4 (nr.7 ) post allstar- 115.9 (nr. 26).
Isaac is one of 3 versatile forwards in the nba who you can build your defense around. Other two are Giannis Antetokounmpo and Anthony Davis.
John Collins is very good offensive player, but not good enough to build your offense around, and his defense is very problematic with regards to team construction.

Instead of doing the smaller sample size post all star break. I ran the larger one after Isaac was injured.

The Magic's defensive rating from Jan. 2nd until April was 111.3 good for 13th without Issac. Their offensive rating was 20th without him at 110.5. Net rating of -0.8

With him from Oct. to Jan. 2nd they were 12th in defensive rating at 106.3 and 26th in offensive rating at 104.7. Net rating of -1.7

With Isaac the Magic were 13 and 19

Without Isaac the Magic were 17 and 16

So what we have here is a better netrating without Isaac and a better win/loss record without Isaac. It was the complete opposite for the Hawks with John Collins return. The Hawks were a much better team with Collins than without him. I understand stats and eye test; Isaac looks like a great athlete and potential defensive player. But the ultimate eye test is always the win/loss record in my opinion.

https://stats.nba.com/teams/advanced/?sort=OFF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&DateFrom=10%2F01%2F2019&DateTo=01%2F02%2F2020

https://stats.nba.com/teams/advanced/?sort=OFF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&DateFrom=01%2F02%2F2020&DateTo=04%2F30%2F2020

[Buzzard]

Your reasoning is a little flawed and seems to lean more to Orlando. Orlando was one of the better defending teams in the NBA even without Isaac a big part of the year. But they were one of the worse offensive teams all season. Collins would be a great shot in the arm for them; I have no doubt about that.

The Hawks on the other hand were bottom 5 in both offense and defense. When Collins came back they moved up to 15th in offensive rating. The Hawks added a rim protector in Capela and its obvious from their poor offensive performance, they cannot afford to be without Collins.

Orlando is in a difficult spot with Isaac. Gordon makes them a more explosive offensive team but it seems their fan base favors Isaac. Honestly, I think they need to swap Gordon or Isaac with maybe a pick to move up and grab a point guard. Maybe trade for a vet point guard. I do not think Fultz is the answer.

Orlando Magic defensive rating pre all star- 107.4 (nr.7 ) post allstar- 115.9 (nr. 26).
Isaac is one of 3 versatile forwards in the nba who you can build your defense around. Other two are Giannis Antetokounmpo and Anthony Davis.
John Collins is very good offensive player, but not good enough to build your offense around, and his defense is very problematic with regards to team construction.

AD, Giannis.........Isaac.

One of these is not like the other, one of these does not belong.

Some have to press the hype button to make a point. Isaac compared to AD or Giannis is extreme to say the least.

[zaymon]

Your reasoning is a little flawed and seems to lean more to Orlando. Orlando was one of the better defending teams in the NBA even without Isaac a big part of the year. But they were one of the worse offensive teams all season. Collins would be a great shot in the arm for them; I have no doubt about that.

The Hawks on the other hand were bottom 5 in both offense and defense. When Collins came back they moved up to 15th in offensive rating. The Hawks added a rim protector in Capela and its obvious from their poor offensive performance, they cannot afford to be without Collins.

Orlando is in a difficult spot with Isaac. Gordon makes them a more explosive offensive team but it seems their fan base favors Isaac. Honestly, I think they need to swap Gordon or Isaac with maybe a pick to move up and grab a point guard. Maybe trade for a vet point guard. I do not think Fultz is the answer.

Orlando Magic defensive rating pre all star- 107.4 (nr.7 ) post allstar- 115.9 (nr. 26).
Isaac is one of 3 versatile forwards in the nba who you can build your defense around. Other two are Giannis Antetokounmpo and Anthony Davis.
John Collins is very good offensive player, but not good enough to build your offense around, and his defense is very problematic with regards to team construction.

Instead of doing the smaller sample size post all star break. I ran the larger one after Isaac was injured.

The Magic's defensive rating from Jan. 2nd until April was 111.3 good for 13th without Issac. Their offensive rating was 20th without him at 110.5. Net rating of -0.8

With him from Oct. to Jan. 2nd they were 12th in defensive rating at 106.3 and 26th in offensive rating at 104.7. Net rating of -1.7

With Isaac the Magic were 13 and 19

Without Isaac the Magic were 17 and 16

So what we have here is a better netrating without Isaac and a better win/loss record without Isaac. It was the complete opposite for the Hawks with John Collins return. The Hawks were a much better team with Collins than without him. I understand stats and eye test; Isaac looks like a great athlete and potential defensive player. But the ultimate eye test is always the win/loss record in my opinion.

https://stats.nba.com/teams/advanced/?sort=OFF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&DateFrom=10%2F01%2F2019&DateTo=01%2F02%2F2020

https://stats.nba.com/teams/advanced/?sort=OFF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&DateFrom=01%2F02%2F2020&DateTo=04%2F30%2F2020

I was comparing AD, GA and JI on the defensive side, it would be crazy to compare them overall. You cant really compare offensive ratings becouse we were in a slump overall as a team at the beginning, JI with his role didnt had much to so with it. It was Ross, Dj and Gordon who struggled. I dont blame you for not knowing, you are not a magic fan.
I would show it like this Giannis......AD, Isaac.
Isaac got serious defensive player of the year consideration before the injury by the likes of Kevin Pelton and Zach Lowe

[Buzzard]

Orlando Magic defensive rating pre all star- 107.4 (nr.7 ) post allstar- 115.9 (nr. 26).
Isaac is one of 3 versatile forwards in the nba who you can build your defense around. Other two are Giannis Antetokounmpo and Anthony Davis.
John Collins is very good offensive player, but not good enough to build your offense around, and his defense is very problematic with regards to team construction.

Instead of doing the smaller sample size post all star break. I ran the larger one after Isaac was injured.

The Magic's defensive rating from Jan. 2nd until April was 111.3 good for 13th without Issac. Their offensive rating was 20th without him at 110.5. Net rating of -0.8

With him from Oct. to Jan. 2nd they were 12th in defensive rating at 106.3 and 26th in offensive rating at 104.7. Net rating of -1.7

With Isaac the Magic were 13 and 19

Without Isaac the Magic were 17 and 16

So what we have here is a better netrating without Isaac and a better win/loss record without Isaac. It was the complete opposite for the Hawks with John Collins return. The Hawks were a much better team with Collins than without him. I understand stats and eye test; Isaac looks like a great athlete and potential defensive player. But the ultimate eye test is always the win/loss record in my opinion.

https://stats.nba.com/teams/advanced/?sort=OFF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&DateFrom=10%2F01%2F2019&DateTo=01%2F02%2F2020

https://stats.nba.com/teams/advanced/?sort=OFF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&DateFrom=01%2F02%2F2020&DateTo=04%2F30%2F2020

I was comparing AD, GA and JI on the defensive side, it would be crazy to compare them overall. You cant really compare offensive ratings becouse we were in a slump overall as a team at the beginning, JI with his role didnt had much to so with it. It was Ross, Dj and Gordon who struggled. I dont blame you for not knowing, you are not a magic fan.
I would show it like this Giannis......AD, Isaac.
Isaac got serious defensive player of the year consideration before the injury by the likes of Kevin Pelton and Zach Lowe

Atlanta might send #4 and MAYBE a piece like Huerter for Isaac. The big issue is if Isaac does not break out in 2020/21, a hard decision will have to be made on how much to pay him.

Defensive role players have their slots and Isaac is only versatile on one end of the floor. That is not versatile in my opinion. Is he really worth more to a team than Thabo was with OKC or Beverly is with the Clippers? How about Chandler when he helped the Mavericks win a championship?

Covington is one of the better paid ones but no one is sending John Collins for him. Isaac is not even as versatile as Draymond much less AD or Giannis. Draymond was averaging 14 Points, 9.5 Rebounds, and 7.4 Assist by his 4th season.

Orlando needs offensive help but I doubt they get Collins from the Hawks. I think Isaac needs to breakout or they are stuck in limbo.

[tiderulz]

Instead of doing the smaller sample size post all star break. I ran the larger one after Isaac was injured.

The Magic's defensive rating from Jan. 2nd until April was 111.3 good for 13th without Issac. Their offensive rating was 20th without him at 110.5. Net rating of -0.8

With him from Oct. to Jan. 2nd they were 12th in defensive rating at 106.3 and 26th in offensive rating at 104.7. Net rating of -1.7

With Isaac the Magic were 13 and 19

Without Isaac the Magic were 17 and 16

So what we have here is a better netrating without Isaac and a better win/loss record without Isaac. It was the complete opposite for the Hawks with John Collins return. The Hawks were a much better team with Collins than without him. I understand stats and eye test; Isaac looks like a great athlete and potential defensive player. But the ultimate eye test is always the win/loss record in my opinion.

https://stats.nba.com/teams/advanced/?sort=OFF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&DateFrom=10%2F01%2F2019&DateTo=01%2F02%2F2020

https://stats.nba.com/teams/advanced/?sort=OFF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&DateFrom=01%2F02%2F2020&DateTo=04%2F30%2F2020

I was comparing AD, GA and JI on the defensive side, it would be crazy to compare them overall. You cant really compare offensive ratings becouse we were in a slump overall as a team at the beginning, JI with his role didnt had much to so with it. It was Ross, Dj and Gordon who struggled. I dont blame you for not knowing, you are not a magic fan.
I would show it like this Giannis......AD, Isaac.
Isaac got serious defensive player of the year consideration before the injury by the likes of Kevin Pelton and Zach Lowe

Atlanta might send #4 and MAYBE a piece like Huerter for Isaac. The big issue is if Isaac does not break out in 2020/21, a hard decision will have to be made on how much to pay him.

Defensive role players have their slots and Isaac is only versatile on one end of the floor. That is not versatile in my opinion. Is he really worth more to a team than Thabo was with OKC or Beverly is with the Clippers? How about Chandler when he helped the Mavericks win a championship?

Covington is one of the better paid ones but no one is sending John Collins for him. Isaac is not even as versatile as Draymond much less AD or Giannis. Draymond was averaging 14 Points, 9.5 Rebounds, and 7.4 Assist by his 4th season.

Orlando needs offensive help but I doubt they get Collins from the Hawks. I think Isaac needs to breakout or they are stuck in limbo.

I think Isaac can be as versatile as Draymond. Isaac can legit defend 2-5 and even cover some 1's. his defensive instincts are great. And anyone who watches Magic games can see the difference he makes to opposing teams when he is on the floor. I personally do not believe he will ever be a major scoring threat. A comparison to Draymond, in how he is used, i think is fair. Also remember coaching. Draymond wasnt even close to what and how he is used now under Mark Jackson. Steve Kerr really broke him out with how he developed and used him. Steve Clifford is a good, no-nonsense coach, but he is as creative as my 12 yr old labrador. You said earlier i slanted it to Orlando. I didnt say the trade favored either, i just pointed out how each player was used and said it all depended on the role that someone wanted specifically for their team. I do agree with you on the need to see Isaac take another step forward this year with his development.

[Godaddycurse]

Just to tack on the comparison of green and isaac, green really blossomed playing with curry... imagine if isaac gets to play with young.

[MartinsIzAfraud]

Just to tack on the comparison of green and isaac, green really blossomed playing with curry... imagine if isaac gets to play with young.

Imagine if Isaac get's to play with a PG who can shoot close to NBA average from 3 ball. The Magic's roster issues has and will always be PG spot. Until they find that piece it's a jumbled mess of defensive guys and no real threat

[Bakomagic]

Isaac is not a defensive role player, he is a defensive star !

[zaymon]

Isaac is more similar to Giannis than to Draymond, just without the ball handling and passing. He even started to use eurostep like Giannis. One thing Isaac has working in his favor is shooting, i think he has potential to be much better than Giannis and Draymond. ( as a shooter)

[Buzzard]

I was comparing AD, GA and JI on the defensive side, it would be crazy to compare them overall. You cant really compare offensive ratings becouse we were in a slump overall as a team at the beginning, JI with his role didnt had much to so with it. It was Ross, Dj and Gordon who struggled. I dont blame you for not knowing, you are not a magic fan.
I would show it like this Giannis......AD, Isaac.
Isaac got serious defensive player of the year consideration before the injury by the likes of Kevin Pelton and Zach Lowe

Atlanta might send #4 and MAYBE a piece like Huerter for Isaac. The big issue is if Isaac does not break out in 2020/21, a hard decision will have to be made on how much to pay him.

Defensive role players have their slots and Isaac is only versatile on one end of the floor. That is not versatile in my opinion. Is he really worth more to a team than Thabo was with OKC or Beverly is with the Clippers? How about Chandler when he helped the Mavericks win a championship?

Covington is one of the better paid ones but no one is sending John Collins for him. Isaac is not even as versatile as Draymond much less AD or Giannis. Draymond was averaging 14 Points, 9.5 Rebounds, and 7.4 Assist by his 4th season.

Orlando needs offensive help but I doubt they get Collins from the Hawks. I think Isaac needs to breakout or they are stuck in limbo.

You said earlier i slanted it to Orlando. I didnt say the trade favored either, i just pointed out how each player was used and said it all depended on the role that someone wanted specifically for their team. I do agree with you on the need to see Isaac take another step forward this year with his development.

I think it definitely slants in favor of Orlando. Atlanta would be taking all the risk on Isaac breaking out. If he can't, the Hawks take a huge step backwards to the bottom of offensive efficiency.

Isaac would be much better suited on a team that had a good to great offense in place. Without Collins, that is not Atlanta by any stretch of the imagination.

The Mavericks, Rockets, Clippers, Lakers, Celtics, Bucks, Heat, Nuggets, and Traiblazers are all in the top 10 in offensive rating. If I were looking to move Isaac, those are the teams I would be calling. If Hunter, Huerter, or Reddish break out, the Hawks offense will improve substantially. But that is probably one to two years away.

It is not that I don't like Isaac, I just value Collins offensive impact a lot more than Isaac's defensive one. Especially with the way the Hawks are currently built.

[Godaddycurse]

I think it definitely slants in favor of Orlando. Atlanta would be taking all the risk on Isaac breaking out. If he can't, the Hawks take a huge step backwards to the bottom of offensive efficiency.

Isaac would be much better suited on a team that had a good to great offense in place. Without Collins, that is not Atlanta by any stretch of the imagination.

The Mavericks, Rockets, Clippers, Lakers, Celtics, Bucks, Heat, Nuggets, and Traiblazers are all in the top 10 in offensive rating. If I were looking to move Isaac, those are the teams I would be calling. If Hunter, Huerter, or Reddish break out, the Hawks offense will improve substantially. But that is probably one to two years away.

It is not that I don't like Isaac, I just value Collins offensive impact a lot more than Isaac's defensive one. Especially with the way the Hawks are currently built.

I agree with you but thats why i had the hawks add Ibaka and Hayward to improve their offense and mitigate that risk

[Buzzard]

Isaac is not a defensive role player, he is a defensive star !

So is/was:

Thabo, 2nd team all defense 2009/10.
Beverly, 2nd team all defense 2013/14 and 1st team all defense 2016/17.
Covington, 1st team all defense 2017/18.

Which is why I used them for comparisons.

[Buzzard]

I think it definitely slants in favor of Orlando. Atlanta would be taking all the risk on Isaac breaking out. If he can't, the Hawks take a huge step backwards to the bottom of offensive efficiency.

Isaac would be much better suited on a team that had a good to great offense in place. Without Collins, that is not Atlanta by any stretch of the imagination.

The Mavericks, Rockets, Clippers, Lakers, Celtics, Bucks, Heat, Nuggets, and Traiblazers are all in the top 10 in offensive rating. If I were looking to move Isaac, those are the teams I would be calling. If Hunter, Huerter, or Reddish break out, the Hawks offense will improve substantially. But that is probably one to two years away.

It is not that I don't like Isaac, I just value Collins offensive impact a lot more than Isaac's defensive one. Especially with the way the Hawks are currently built.

I agree with you but that's why i had the hawks add Ibaka and Hayward to improve their offense and mitigate that risk

GMs do not lose a trade on purpose just because they may be winning another. Orlando needs to send more. Or a three team trade and one of Boston or Orlando sends more.

Hayward is a great piece but he has to be signed and Isaac is very much a question mark. Aminu is nothing more than what he already is; a good reserve on a decent contract. Kanter is not Capela.

At the end of the day, I do not see Atlanta taking a talent hit at both starting Center and Power Forward.