When we win the chip, will there be a parade?

[Metallikid]

Its funny how you over characterize the mental aspect of this, yet believe that since the amount of cases of COVID are low, therefore no damage can come about from it.

Do you really believe if we allow things to expand that it wouldn't lead to a potential to more exposure?

There are support groups available for people to seek mental assistance during this time.

Let's not also forget how it can affect someone mentally if they got the virus and spread it to a love one, at no fault of their own, which causes the person to pass away.

I'm not going to argue a negative with another negative.

Let me ask you, how long do you think it is acceptable for 'social distancing' to be something mandated?

Support groups are not interaction with other humans in person, they are not a substitute for interaction with people you care about face-to-face - laughing, smiling, not living in fear. I believe that eventually if there is no vaccine then we will have to go with herd immunity and accept the consequences. The fact that cases are low are why there aren't emergency orders - which could come and go. The amount of cases is so low right now that if they paid enough people who need jobs to track and trace every infection properly we could eliminate it altogether. But we aren't, we're being restricted so that businesses can open. The fact is older people are going to bear the brunt of it regardless and as unfortunate as that is, that cannot prevent normal human socialization for the people who are young and younger - if they pass it to a relative and they die, guess what? That happened all the time 75+ years ago with normal flus and colds. People learned to deal with loss, not push it off as long as possible when the result of that is destroying future potential. And old people understood it was wrong to put an incredible burden on the young so that you could perhaps live a few more years. In Inuit culture and other Native cultures old people at a certain point would venture off into the wilderness to die so as not to be a burden.

You will have a damaged generation beyond imagining and most of all people won't stand for it eventually and rebel and do what they want to anyways. There will be protests against it and gatherings anyways. I urge you to understand that there is no such thing as a 'new normal' if that doesn't contain the ability to make friends and relationships and not live in constant fear of other people. There is no more fundamental human experience than looking into another humans face and holding their hand or being shoulder to shoulder. It cannot be replaced. It will destroy us to try.

So it is acceptable to let the old die, because as you believe, we cannot put people younger people in trouble? That's not acceptable.

Also, anyone who's involved mental treatments knows that when they see their counselor or doctor, their sessions are made to improve their interpretation of life. It's not to baby them into believing they cannot overcome their troubles and discourage them from trying.

Plus, I don't care for social studies where technology was not what it is now and what it will be in the future. Everyone knows that technology is there to improve social activities. It makes it much easier for people to interact with each other. Kids tend to use technology over outdoor gatherings moreso than not. This was way before the virus.

We must care about everyone and everyone must play a role in minimizing the spread of the virus until there is a vaccine.

There won't be a vaccine. I can almost guarantee that. Either it won't be safe, or it won't be long-lasting, or there won't be enough, or there won't be enough ingredients (especially if it isn't long lasting), or there will be logistical problems in its delivery, or it will be reserved for certain populations and possibly the rich.

Psychotherapy is there to help people deal with trauma, not to help people rationalize and accept a state of life that is untenable for human beings psycho-social development and well-being - let me repeat, social distancing and masks forever is untenable for human beings not some 'troubles'. If there is no good treatment or vaccine, and I don't think there will be, then yeah you cannot abrogate everyone's rights in society permanently to protect the medically frail population. You don't get to give up other people's Charter rights for them.

We must care for as many as we can as well as we can, and eventually that will mean living normal human lives with normal human social dynamics and not in fear of this virus. If you can't see that one will eventually outweigh the other then I think you are blinded by fear.

[OGLife]

Let me ask you, how long do you think it is acceptable for 'social distancing' to be something mandated?

Support groups are not interaction with other humans in person, they are not a substitute for interaction with people you care about face-to-face - laughing, smiling, not living in fear. I believe that eventually if there is no vaccine then we will have to go with herd immunity and accept the consequences. The fact that cases are low are why there aren't emergency orders - which could come and go. The amount of cases is so low right now that if they paid enough people who need jobs to track and trace every infection properly we could eliminate it altogether. But we aren't, we're being restricted so that businesses can open. The fact is older people are going to bear the brunt of it regardless and as unfortunate as that is, that cannot prevent normal human socialization for the people who are young and younger - if they pass it to a relative and they die, guess what? That happened all the time 75+ years ago with normal flus and colds. People learned to deal with loss, not push it off as long as possible when the result of that is destroying future potential. And old people understood it was wrong to put an incredible burden on the young so that you could perhaps live a few more years. In Inuit culture and other Native cultures old people at a certain point would venture off into the wilderness to die so as not to be a burden.

You will have a damaged generation beyond imagining and most of all people won't stand for it eventually and rebel and do what they want to anyways. There will be protests against it and gatherings anyways. I urge you to understand that there is no such thing as a 'new normal' if that doesn't contain the ability to make friends and relationships and not live in constant fear of other people. There is no more fundamental human experience than looking into another humans face and holding their hand or being shoulder to shoulder. It cannot be replaced. It will destroy us to try.

So it is acceptable to let the old die, because as you believe, we cannot put people younger people in trouble? That's not acceptable.

Also, anyone who's involved mental treatments knows that when they see their counselor or doctor, their sessions are made to improve their interpretation of life. It's not to baby them into believing they cannot overcome their troubles and discourage them from trying.

Plus, I don't care for social studies where technology was not what it is now and what it will be in the future. Everyone knows that technology is there to improve social activities. It makes it much easier for people to interact with each other. Kids tend to use technology over outdoor gatherings moreso than not. This was way before the virus.

We must care about everyone and everyone must play a role in minimizing the spread of the virus until there is a vaccine.

There won't be a vaccine. I can almost guarantee that. Either it won't be safe, or it won't be long-lasting, or there won't be enough, or there won't be enough ingredients (especially if it isn't long lasting), or there will be logistical problems in its delivery.

Psychotherapy is there to help people deal with trauma, not to accept a state of life that is untenable for human beings psycho-social development and well-being - let me repeat, social distancing and masks forever is untenable for human beings not some 'troubles'. If there is no good treatment or vaccine, and I don't think there will be, then yeah you cannot abrogate everyone's rights in society permanently to protect the medically frail population. You don't get to give up other people's Charter rights for them.

We must care for as many as we can as well as we can, and eventually that will mean living normal human lives with normal human social dynamics and not in fear of this virus. If you can't see that one will eventually outweigh the other then I think you are blinded by fear.

Can you give me an example where people are being forced to stay home to the full? Are you not getting protesters gathering for support groups all across Ontario? Are you not seeing people gathering in public spaces for simply enjoying the weather?

This is not a lock down.

You're going full blown about this whole stay at home thing.

[Metallikid]

So it is acceptable to let the old die, because as you believe, we cannot put people younger people in trouble? That's not acceptable.

Also, anyone who's involved mental treatments knows that when they see their counselor or doctor, their sessions are made to improve their interpretation of life. It's not to baby them into believing they cannot overcome their troubles and discourage them from trying.

Plus, I don't care for social studies where technology was not what it is now and what it will be in the future. Everyone knows that technology is there to improve social activities. It makes it much easier for people to interact with each other. Kids tend to use technology over outdoor gatherings moreso than not. This was way before the virus.

We must care about everyone and everyone must play a role in minimizing the spread of the virus until there is a vaccine.

There won't be a vaccine. I can almost guarantee that. Either it won't be safe, or it won't be long-lasting, or there won't be enough, or there won't be enough ingredients (especially if it isn't long lasting), or there will be logistical problems in its delivery.

Psychotherapy is there to help people deal with trauma, not to accept a state of life that is untenable for human beings psycho-social development and well-being - let me repeat, social distancing and masks forever is untenable for human beings not some 'troubles'. If there is no good treatment or vaccine, and I don't think there will be, then yeah you cannot abrogate everyone's rights in society permanently to protect the medically frail population. You don't get to give up other people's Charter rights for them.

We must care for as many as we can as well as we can, and eventually that will mean living normal human lives with normal human social dynamics and not in fear of this virus. If you can't see that one will eventually outweigh the other then I think you are blinded by fear.

Can you give me an example where people are being forced to stay home to the full? Are you not getting protesters gathering for support groups all across Ontario? Are you not seeing people gathering in public spaces for simply enjoying the weather?

This is not a lock down.

You're going full blown about this whole stay at home thing.

I said nothing about lockdowns. I am talking about social distancing and to a lesser extent, masks. The people you see in public parks and beaches are families and significant others spending time together 'in their bubbles' that is not normal human interaction between friends, between prospective friends, and even strangers - right now interactions between people is being governed by fear and anger. That is not tenable to the continuance of a society let alone a productive one. What about Winter? And it is in general not outdoors where most of our socialization occurs. Indoors in schools and then at each others houses and as we get older, and parties and get together and hobby/interest related gatherings and clubs - you know, places people can meet and sit beside each other and talk face-to-face and see each other's smiles and laughs and facial expressions. Making new connections and new relationships both romantic and platonic. Single people are suffering greatly. Not to mention that eventually we would need to accept the risk of catching the disease in order to stabilize the economy - you think we should socially distance until a vaccine and give up our charter rights while the tourism industry is being kept afloat by letting Americans fly into Canada from any state. But regardless of that, People who don't live near or with family are suffering greatly. People who have bad relationships with their family and suffering greatly. Kids and youth and young adults in particular are suffering greatly. Even if you want to argue a utilitarian point the psychological trauma and damage to the social fabric of society will well outpace letting the the virus run rampant in not too long a time.

[OGLife]

There won't be a vaccine. I can almost guarantee that. Either it won't be safe, or it won't be long-lasting, or there won't be enough, or there won't be enough ingredients (especially if it isn't long lasting), or there will be logistical problems in its delivery.

Psychotherapy is there to help people deal with trauma, not to accept a state of life that is untenable for human beings psycho-social development and well-being - let me repeat, social distancing and masks forever is untenable for human beings not some 'troubles'. If there is no good treatment or vaccine, and I don't think there will be, then yeah you cannot abrogate everyone's rights in society permanently to protect the medically frail population. You don't get to give up other people's Charter rights for them.

We must care for as many as we can as well as we can, and eventually that will mean living normal human lives with normal human social dynamics and not in fear of this virus. If you can't see that one will eventually outweigh the other then I think you are blinded by fear.

Can you give me an example where people are being forced to stay home to the full? Are you not getting protesters gathering for support groups all across Ontario? Are you not seeing people gathering in public spaces for simply enjoying the weather?

This is not a lock down.

You're going full blown about this whole stay at home thing.

I said nothing about lockdowns. I am talking about social distancing and to a lesser extent, masks. The people you see in public parks and beaches are families and significant others spending time together 'in their bubbles' that is not normal human interaction between friends, between prospective friends, and even strangers - right now interactions between people is being governed by fear and anger. That is not tenable to the continuance of a society let alone a productive one. What about Winter? And it is in general not outdoors where most of our socialization occurs. Indoors in schools and then at each others houses and as we get older, and parties and get together and hobby/interest related gatherings and clubs - you know, places people can meet and sit beside each other and talk face-to-face and see each other's smiles and laughs and facial expressions. Making new connections and new relationships both romantic and platonic. Single people are suffering greatly. Not to mention that eventually we would need to accept the risk of catching the disease in order to stabilize the economy - you think we should socially distance until a vaccine and give up our charter rights while the tourism industry is being kept afloat by letting Americans fly into Canada from any state. But regardless of that, People who don't live near or with family are suffering greatly. People who have bad relationships with their family and suffering greatly. Kids and youth and young adults in particular are suffering greatly. Even if you want to argue a utilitarian point the psychological trauma and damage to the social fabric of society will well outpace letting the the virus run rampant in not too long a time.

Do you honestly believe people are really allowing social distancing and masks to interrupt their way of living? They're not.

There's only a small group of people who are avoiding hand shaking and things of that nature with people.

However, it is a great cause to prevent each other from getting the virus.

If you REALLY care of a stranger's life, you avoid it now, get their number and party when life is better than what it is now.

[Metallikid]

Can you give me an example where people are being forced to stay home to the full? Are you not getting protesters gathering for support groups all across Ontario? Are you not seeing people gathering in public spaces for simply enjoying the weather?

This is not a lock down.

You're going full blown about this whole stay at home thing.

I said nothing about lockdowns. I am talking about social distancing and to a lesser extent, masks. The people you see in public parks and beaches are families and significant others spending time together 'in their bubbles' that is not normal human interaction between friends, between prospective friends, and even strangers - right now interactions between people is being governed by fear and anger. That is not tenable to the continuance of a society let alone a productive one. What about Winter? And it is in general not outdoors where most of our socialization occurs. Indoors in schools and then at each others houses and as we get older, and parties and get together and hobby/interest related gatherings and clubs - you know, places people can meet and sit beside each other and talk face-to-face and see each other's smiles and laughs and facial expressions. Making new connections and new relationships both romantic and platonic. Single people are suffering greatly. Not to mention that eventually we would need to accept the risk of catching the disease in order to stabilize the economy - you think we should socially distance until a vaccine and give up our charter rights while the tourism industry is being kept afloat by letting Americans fly into Canada from any state. But regardless of that, People who don't live near or with family are suffering greatly. People who have bad relationships with their family and suffering greatly. Kids and youth and young adults in particular are suffering greatly. Even if you want to argue a utilitarian point the psychological trauma and damage to the social fabric of society will well outpace letting the the virus run rampant in not too long a time.

Do you honestly believe people are really allowing social distancing and masks to interrupt their way of living? They're not.

There's only a small group of people who are avoiding hand shaking and things of that nature with people.

However, it is a great cause to prevent each other from getting the virus.

If you REALLY care of a stranger's life, you avoid it now, get their number and party when life is better than what it is now.

Absolutely they are. I know of many people who are avoiding others obsessively and lashing out at people who aren't wearing masks or who get close to them. I know of many people who are engaging in a minuscule fraction of social interaction than they were before. I know of many people who have not or have barely left their home in months except for groceries. I know many people who only see their friends 6 feet away out of fear and haven't hugged someone they don't live with in months, or shake their hand, or have a face-to-face conversation. I know many people who are lacking their normal social interactions because they took place at clubs, or stores, or other venues that are now closed or have such restrictions in place that they take away the ability to actually have substantive human interaction beyond Capitalistic consumption. Or their socialization took place in friend groups or group events that by necessity had many people in a small space close together.

Just as a question to you, if an acquaintance called you up to hang out one-on-one, would you be willing to entertain that idea? I have a feeling the answer is either no, you're afraid you could catch the virus, or no, it is not worthwhile to take the risk even being 6 feet away from each other or having masks or whatever to engage in said socialization if it's not someone you are very close to already, and possibly even then. Now amplify that to a whole society.

[OGLife]

I said nothing about lockdowns. I am talking about social distancing and to a lesser extent, masks. The people you see in public parks and beaches are families and significant others spending time together 'in their bubbles' that is not normal human interaction between friends, between prospective friends, and even strangers - right now interactions between people is being governed by fear and anger. That is not tenable to the continuance of a society let alone a productive one. What about Winter? And it is in general not outdoors where most of our socialization occurs. Indoors in schools and then at each others houses and as we get older, and parties and get together and hobby/interest related gatherings and clubs - you know, places people can meet and sit beside each other and talk face-to-face and see each other's smiles and laughs and facial expressions. Making new connections and new relationships both romantic and platonic. Single people are suffering greatly. Not to mention that eventually we would need to accept the risk of catching the disease in order to stabilize the economy - you think we should socially distance until a vaccine and give up our charter rights while the tourism industry is being kept afloat by letting Americans fly into Canada from any state. But regardless of that, People who don't live near or with family are suffering greatly. People who have bad relationships with their family and suffering greatly. Kids and youth and young adults in particular are suffering greatly. Even if you want to argue a utilitarian point the psychological trauma and damage to the social fabric of society will well outpace letting the the virus run rampant in not too long a time.

Do you honestly believe people are really allowing social distancing and masks to interrupt their way of living? They're not.

There's only a small group of people who are avoiding hand shaking and things of that nature with people.

However, it is a great cause to prevent each other from getting the virus.

If you REALLY care of a stranger's life, you avoid it now, get their number and party when life is better than what it is now.

Absolutely they are. I know of many people who are avoiding others obsessively and lashing out at people who aren't wearing masks or who get close to them. I know of many people who are engaging in a minuscule fraction of social interaction than they were before. I know of many people who have not or have barely left their home in months except for groceries. I know many people who only see their friends 6 feet away out of fear and haven't hugged someone they don't live with in months, or shake their hand, or have a face-to-face conversation. I know many people who are lacking their normal social interactions because they took place at clubs, or stores, or other venues that are now closed or have such restrictions in place that they take away the ability to actually have substantive human interaction beyond Capitalistic consumption.

Which brings me to my original point. While you shame someone who doesn't want to be with someone who has HIV?

Is it the governments' fault and medical experts' fault for making HIV such a big issue?

At the end of the day, you most change your lifestyles whenever you in counter a situation where a virus/disease can be life altering.

How about instead of attacking each other with how we are changing our lifestyle to prevent a spread of a virus (which I'm sure nobody is happy with), we invest our energy into attacking China and figuring out how this virus came about.

It's seems like China is getting off very easy with this while other political parties are barring the weight of the outcomes.

[Metallikid]

Do you honestly believe people are really allowing social distancing and masks to interrupt their way of living? They're not.

There's only a small group of people who are avoiding hand shaking and things of that nature with people.

However, it is a great cause to prevent each other from getting the virus.

If you REALLY care of a stranger's life, you avoid it now, get their number and party when life is better than what it is now.

Absolutely they are. I know of many people who are avoiding others obsessively and lashing out at people who aren't wearing masks or who get close to them. I know of many people who are engaging in a minuscule fraction of social interaction than they were before. I know of many people who have not or have barely left their home in months except for groceries. I know many people who only see their friends 6 feet away out of fear and haven't hugged someone they don't live with in months, or shake their hand, or have a face-to-face conversation. I know many people who are lacking their normal social interactions because they took place at clubs, or stores, or other venues that are now closed or have such restrictions in place that they take away the ability to actually have substantive human interaction beyond Capitalistic consumption.

Which brings me to my original point. While you shame someone who doesn't want to be with someone who has HIV?

Is it the governments' fault and medical experts' fault for making HIV such a big issue?

At the end of the day, you most change your lifestyles whenever you in counter a situation where a virus/disease can be life altering.

How about instead of attacking each other with how we are changing our lifestyle to prevent a spread of a virus (which I'm sure nobody is happy with), we invest our energy into attacking China and figuring out how this virus came about.

It's seems like China is getting off very easy with this while other political parties are barring the weight of the outcomes.

People with HIV shouldn't be shamed and it is predominantly the media rather the medical experts and governments although they play a role too. And you're moving the goalpost because I am telling you how wrong you are and you're calling that 'changing their lifestyles'. It's not that simple when that comes with an acceptance of laws that take away or fundamentally alter your Charter rights that should be always limited to emergency powers. It's not that simple when people are letting fear and anger govern their choices and feel that others should be governed by that fear and anger too under acceptable penalty of law. It's not that simple when people think that the psycho-social ramifications of normalizing what is happening right now will do to the majority of society the longer this continues is less than what will happen by getting a disease where for people under 70s the chance of even requiring any medical help whatsoever is very, very small, and the less so if you are healthy, in good shape and have a good diet. That is what governments should be promoting - getting exercise, eating right, sleeping well AND spending time with people.

The reality is you keep dodging my core question - how long do you think that this can or should be maintained? What if a vaccine takes 4 years? 8? 20? Never? If you think these things are acceptable then you actually become a significant threat to my Charter freedoms and human rights and you will see how damaged you yourself and others you know will become over time - children and youth most of all. Many years ago due to a combination of an extremely abusive relationship and thereafter getting into an accident where I was badly burned caused me to be afraid of other people touching me. Take it from someone with experience, it is mentally debilitating. It causes severe depression, anger, complete loss of energy and productivity, feelings of hopelessness and more. That is happening on a gigantic scale at this very moment. Mental illness is no different than physical illness, remember that.

China is a separate issue, but absolutely everyone should be doing everything in their power to not purchase items that are made there and to pressure the government to end outsourcing and to moving jobs to China, and to sanction and put as much political pressure as possible on them to compensate the rest of the world and to attack their increasingly imperialist, totalitarian regime in any way possible.

[OGLife]

Absolutely they are. I know of many people who are avoiding others obsessively and lashing out at people who aren't wearing masks or who get close to them. I know of many people who are engaging in a minuscule fraction of social interaction than they were before. I know of many people who have not or have barely left their home in months except for groceries. I know many people who only see their friends 6 feet away out of fear and haven't hugged someone they don't live with in months, or shake their hand, or have a face-to-face conversation. I know many people who are lacking their normal social interactions because they took place at clubs, or stores, or other venues that are now closed or have such restrictions in place that they take away the ability to actually have substantive human interaction beyond Capitalistic consumption.

Which brings me to my original point. While you shame someone who doesn't want to be with someone who has HIV?

Is it the governments' fault and medical experts' fault for making HIV such a big issue?

At the end of the day, you most change your lifestyles whenever you in counter a situation where a virus/disease can be life altering.

How about instead of attacking each other with how we are changing our lifestyle to prevent a spread of a virus (which I'm sure nobody is happy with), we invest our energy into attacking China and figuring out how this virus came about.

It's seems like China is getting off very easy with this while other political parties are barring the weight of the outcomes.

People with HIV shouldn't be shamed and it is predominantly the media rather the medical experts and governments although they play a role too. And you're moving the goalpost because I am telling you how wrong you are and you're calling that 'changing their lifestyles'. It's not that simple when that comes with an acceptance of laws that take away or fundamentally alter your Charter rights that should be always limited to emergency powers. It's not that simple when people are letting fear and anger govern their choices and feel that others should be governed by that fear and anger too under acceptable penalty of law. It's not that simple when people think that the psycho-social ramifications of normalizing what is happening right now will do to the majority of society the longer this continues is less than what will happen by getting a disease where for people under 70s the chance of even requiring any medical help whatsoever is very, very small, and the less so if you are healthy, in good shape and have a good diet. That is what governments should be promoting - getting exercise, eating right, sleeping well AND spending time with people.

The reality is you keep dodging my core question - how long do you think that this can or should be maintained? What if a vaccine takes 4 years? 8? 20? Never? If you think these things are acceptable then you actually become a significant threat to my Charter freedoms and human rights and you will see how damaged you yourself and others you know will become over time. Mental illness is no different than physical illness, remember that.

China is a separate issue, but absolutely everyone should be doing everything in their power to not purchase items that are made there and to pressure the government to end outsourcing and to moving jobs to China.

Ok so do you believe that people shouldn't have been limited in purchasing wipes, paper towels etc? How about limits of food?

I'm not ignoring your point. You're just too focused on yourself and your rights that you're ignoring that they are HUMAN RIGHTS. Human as in everyones. This is why society needs Government.

China isnt a seperate issue. It should be the ONLY issue. A seperate issue is what you're discussing, which is limiting business with them. Problem with that is that we've made China so powerful from a business standpoint that they really have so much control of it. China can just shut down operations since it's their playing field.

However back to my original point, what's the purpose of the UN? Why isn't the UN stepping in and getting a full investigation done with China? How am I so certain that this wasn't a deadly weapon created by China that they were unable to contain? It leaked, which they did not want to happen, which caused attention and a pandemic.

The problem is, nobody wants to go after China because it would be racist and/or considered an invasion.

Let's also not pretend that China doesn't like to keep things secret with how things are there.

Stop worrying about social distancing and it's affect. Then stop blaming a government who is looking for the safety of its people. Then place your full focus onto how this virus, in my opinion, was made.

I'm not going to believe people were eating bats and that's how it's origin came from. There's something deeper that we're not being told.

I will say this about your question about the length of a vaccine. I cannot answer that or give you a certainly of the length it will take to make one. What I do know, it came from China. Therefore, I want details about them.

[Metallikid]

Which brings me to my original point. While you shame someone who doesn't want to be with someone who has HIV?

Is it the governments' fault and medical experts' fault for making HIV such a big issue?

At the end of the day, you most change your lifestyles whenever you in counter a situation where a virus/disease can be life altering.

How about instead of attacking each other with how we are changing our lifestyle to prevent a spread of a virus (which I'm sure nobody is happy with), we invest our energy into attacking China and figuring out how this virus came about.

It's seems like China is getting off very easy with this while other political parties are barring the weight of the outcomes.

People with HIV shouldn't be shamed and it is predominantly the media rather the medical experts and governments although they play a role too. And you're moving the goalpost because I am telling you how wrong you are and you're calling that 'changing their lifestyles'. It's not that simple when that comes with an acceptance of laws that take away or fundamentally alter your Charter rights that should be always limited to emergency powers. It's not that simple when people are letting fear and anger govern their choices and feel that others should be governed by that fear and anger too under acceptable penalty of law. It's not that simple when people think that the psycho-social ramifications of normalizing what is happening right now will do to the majority of society the longer this continues is less than what will happen by getting a disease where for people under 70s the chance of even requiring any medical help whatsoever is very, very small, and the less so if you are healthy, in good shape and have a good diet. That is what governments should be promoting - getting exercise, eating right, sleeping well AND spending time with people.

The reality is you keep dodging my core question - how long do you think that this can or should be maintained? What if a vaccine takes 4 years? 8? 20? Never? If you think these things are acceptable then you actually become a significant threat to my Charter freedoms and human rights and you will see how damaged you yourself and others you know will become over time. Mental illness is no different than physical illness, remember that.

China is a separate issue, but absolutely everyone should be doing everything in their power to not purchase items that are made there and to pressure the government to end outsourcing and to moving jobs to China.

Ok so do you believe that people shouldn't have been limited in purchasing wipes, paper towels etc? How about limits of food?

I'm not ignoring your point. You're just too focused on yourself and your rights that you're ignoring that they are HUMAN RIGHTS. Human as in everyones. This is why society needs Government.

China isnt a seperate issue. It should be the ONLY issue. A seperate issue is what you're discussing, which is limiting business with them. Problem with that is that we've made China so powerful from a business standpoint that they really have so much control of it. China can just shut down operations since it's their playing field.

However back to my original point, what's the purpose of the UN? Why isn't the UN stepping in and getting a full investigation done with China? How am I so certain that this wasn't a deadly weapon created by China that they were unable to contain? It leaked, which they did not want to happen, which caused attention and a pandemic.

The problem is, nobody wants to go after China because it would be racist and/or considered an invasion.

Let's also not pretend that China doesn't like to keep things secret with how things are there.

Stop worrying about social distancing and it's affect. Then stop blaming a government who is looking for the safety of its people. Then place your full focus onto how this virus, in my opinion, was made.

I'm not going to believe people were eating bats and that's how it's origin came from. There's something deeper that we're not being told.

That's a silly comparison. Wipes and food are products that you could still get some of. I'm not focused just on my rights, I'm focused on the abrogation of everyone's rights and the willingness to buy into that and the fear that has people ignoring the ramifications of what we're doing right now. You'll see when it comes time for school. Mental illness among children will skyrocket. Huge amount of them will be kept home out of fear so they have even less socialization and education - and let's be real parents aren't homeschooling their kids to any significant degree. Online classes barely work in university they sure as hell don't work with highschool kids and younger - I've heard personal stories from people who tried to finish this past year doing online classes.

It's not something deeper we aren't being told, I very clearly believe it was a lab-altered virus that leaked and that the Chinese government being totalitarian hid the information, had a cover-up, suppressed the numbers and whistleblower, disappeared people, lied to their people and world about the disease, allowed people to leave China in huge numbers instead of closing their external borders, and used their influence at the WHO to perpetuate their lies to convince other countries of their side. It's no secret if you do a little digging. I believed the Wuhan wet market theory at first but there has really been no substantive evidence for it since the beginning and more evidence comes out about how this virus is likely not to have evolved naturally. Patient #1 had no contact with the Wuhan wet market at all.

[OGLife]

People with HIV shouldn't be shamed and it is predominantly the media rather the medical experts and governments although they play a role too. And you're moving the goalpost because I am telling you how wrong you are and you're calling that 'changing their lifestyles'. It's not that simple when that comes with an acceptance of laws that take away or fundamentally alter your Charter rights that should be always limited to emergency powers. It's not that simple when people are letting fear and anger govern their choices and feel that others should be governed by that fear and anger too under acceptable penalty of law. It's not that simple when people think that the psycho-social ramifications of normalizing what is happening right now will do to the majority of society the longer this continues is less than what will happen by getting a disease where for people under 70s the chance of even requiring any medical help whatsoever is very, very small, and the less so if you are healthy, in good shape and have a good diet. That is what governments should be promoting - getting exercise, eating right, sleeping well AND spending time with people.

The reality is you keep dodging my core question - how long do you think that this can or should be maintained? What if a vaccine takes 4 years? 8? 20? Never? If you think these things are acceptable then you actually become a significant threat to my Charter freedoms and human rights and you will see how damaged you yourself and others you know will become over time. Mental illness is no different than physical illness, remember that.

China is a separate issue, but absolutely everyone should be doing everything in their power to not purchase items that are made there and to pressure the government to end outsourcing and to moving jobs to China.

Ok so do you believe that people shouldn't have been limited in purchasing wipes, paper towels etc? How about limits of food?

I'm not ignoring your point. You're just too focused on yourself and your rights that you're ignoring that they are HUMAN RIGHTS. Human as in everyones. This is why society needs Government.

China isnt a seperate issue. It should be the ONLY issue. A seperate issue is what you're discussing, which is limiting business with them. Problem with that is that we've made China so powerful from a business standpoint that they really have so much control of it. China can just shut down operations since it's their playing field.

However back to my original point, what's the purpose of the UN? Why isn't the UN stepping in and getting a full investigation done with China? How am I so certain that this wasn't a deadly weapon created by China that they were unable to contain? It leaked, which they did not want to happen, which caused attention and a pandemic.

The problem is, nobody wants to go after China because it would be racist and/or considered an invasion.

Let's also not pretend that China doesn't like to keep things secret with how things are there.

Stop worrying about social distancing and it's affect. Then stop blaming a government who is looking for the safety of its people. Then place your full focus onto how this virus, in my opinion, was made.

I'm not going to believe people were eating bats and that's how it's origin came from. There's something deeper that we're not being told.

That's a silly comparison. Wipes and food are products that you could still get some of. I'm not focused just on my rights, I'm focused on the abrogation of everyone's rights and the willingness to buy into that and the fear that has people ignoring the ramifications of what we're doing right now. You'll see when it comes time for school. Mental illness among children will skyrocket. Huge amount of them will be kept home out of fear so they have even less socialization and education - and let's be real parents aren't homeschooling their kids to any significant degree. Online classes barely work in university they sure as hell don't work with highschool kids and younger - I've heard personal stories from people who tried to finish this past year doing online classes.

It's not something deeper we aren't being told, I very clearly believe it was a lab-altered virus that leaked and that the Chinese government being totalitarian hid the information, had a cover-up, suppressed the numbers and whistleblower, disappeared people, lied to their people and world about the disease, allowed people to leave China in huge numbers instead of closing their external borders, and used their influence at the WHO to perpetuate their lies to convince other countries of their side. It's no secret if you do a little digging. I believed the Wuhan wet market theory at first but there has really been no substantive evidence for it since the beginning and more evidence comes out about how this virus is likely not to have evolved naturally. Patient #1 had no contact with the Wuhan wet market at all.

Let me hit you with an example:

In the US, you have Trump who has been unwilling to place orders to protect its people. The media says he is not a leader. Then you have Justin who is applying orders to protect people's health and people are not happy.

This is why I don't support politics and it's a reason why majority of people don't get into discussions about politics because you cannot make everyone happy.

About your point on China, I 100% agree. It's time the UN get involved. These orders are temporary and it will go away once a vaccine is made. If we agree that a vaccine may not be made soon or might not be made yet we're fighting with each other about the health concerns, the economy concerns how about we use all those things and see it through that something happens with China? Something is being created by China and it's much more bigger and a threat to us than these temporary orders.

[Johnny Bball]

There won't be a vaccine. I can almost guarantee that. Either it won't be safe, or it won't be long-lasting, or there won't be enough, or there won't be enough ingredients (especially if it isn't long lasting), or there will be logistical problems in its delivery, or it will be reserved for certain populations and possibly the rich.

Since it's a guarantee....name your stakes. We can escrow the the money, so I can assure I'm paid. I'll bet any reasonable sum.

I'll give you this before decide if you want to ... Both the US and Canadian governments already have the delivery supplies in place, and Canada ordered enough for 75 million doses.

I could give you updates on vaccine progress but that's easy enough to find.

Bu... how did this thread with this title get here!

[realball]

Yes, because a virus that has a less than 0.1 fatality rate for people under 70 will permanently stop literal human socialization since time immemorial. The Spanish Flu that killed 18-30 year olds in the 10s of millions didn't. So good luck with that. It's more detrimental to us than the virus ever could be if people continue to try not to. Humans need touch, they need to see each other's facial expressions and they need to be near other humans. I guarantee eventually we will, probably sometime next year in fact. Life means nothing without shared group experiences.

The Government will not let large gatherings take place without a vaccine. How you feel about it is irrelevant.

If large gathering take place next year it will because we have a vaccine or because the virus dissipated naturally.

As if the government could stop people gathering whenever they wanted if they actually chose to. Sure, there won't be 'an official' parade, but there will be large gatherings more and more the longer this goes on. And to be honest an easy workaround is just saying your large event is a protest, and also there were protests. Freedom of assembly is a Charter right in Canada. The government does not have the ability to stop people from gathering indefinitely. They are only able to do so with emergency powers and those cannot be made indefinite.

What the hell are you talking about? The government can stop the official parade, but you think somehow thousands of people are still going to somehow organize their own parade or something, masked as a protest???

Are you like 12? No one with a straight head cares about basketball enough to be endangering themselves because of a championship right now. Do you remember how many kids were at the last parade? Do you think parents are going to be lining up for the parade this year or something? Don't act like a championship parade is anything like a protest, people came out to protest an important issue. Celebrating a god damn basketball trophy is not important.

We've been in lockdown for less than 6 months. Countries have been in wartime for 10x longer. Stop acting like this going to continue "indefinitely", it's not the end of the world. A missed parade two months from now doesn't mean we're going to stay in lockdown forever.

[Metallikid]

The Government will not let large gatherings take place without a vaccine. How you feel about it is irrelevant.

If large gathering take place next year it will because we have a vaccine or because the virus dissipated naturally.

As if the government could stop people gathering whenever they wanted if they actually chose to. Sure, there won't be 'an official' parade, but there will be large gatherings more and more the longer this goes on. And to be honest an easy workaround is just saying your large event is a protest, and also there were protests. Freedom of assembly is a Charter right in Canada. The government does not have the ability to stop people from gathering indefinitely. They are only able to do so with emergency powers and those cannot be made indefinite.

What the hell are you talking about? The government can stop the official parade, but you think somehow thousands of people are still going to somehow organize their own parade or something, masked as a protest???

Are you like 12? No one with a straight head cares about basketball enough to be endangering themselves because of a championship right now. Do you remember how many kids were at the last parade? Do you think parents are going to be lining up for the parade this year or something? Don't act like a championship parade is anything like a protest, people came out to protest an important issue. Celebrating a god damn basketball trophy is not important.

We've been in lockdown for less than 6 months. Countries have been in wartime for 10x longer. Stop acting like this going to continue "indefinitely", it's not the end of the world. A missed parade two months from now doesn't mean we're going to stay in lockdown forever.

People will celebrate because shared group experiences are the core of human life.

In wartime people can still see their friends and loved ones up close and hug them and socialize and gather at private places close to other people. Wartime is usually about rationing and curfews. If you're going to argue that we're living like we're in Nazi occupied Eastern Europe then guess what, people won't live that like for that long when they realize it isn't going to be going away anytime soon.

People still came out and partied when Liverpool won the BPL. Lots of people are willing to take a risk to enjoy life. Eventually we all will have to.

[Metallikid]

There won't be a vaccine. I can almost guarantee that. Either it won't be safe, or it won't be long-lasting, or there won't be enough, or there won't be enough ingredients (especially if it isn't long lasting), or there will be logistical problems in its delivery, or it will be reserved for certain populations and possibly the rich.

Since it's a guarantee....name your stakes. We can escrow the the money, so I can assure I'm paid. I'll bet any reasonable sum.

I'll give you this before decide if you want to ... Both the US and Canadian governments already have the delivery supplies in place, and Canada ordered enough for 75 million doses.

I could give you updates on vaccine progress but that's easy enough to find.

Bu... how did this thread with this title get here!

My statement allowed for the possibility of a vaccine being made, but not one being such that we will ever be able to live without the threat of Covid. As I said, they may not be safe long term (which we would only know about afterwards), or work well enough, or they may not be long-lasting.

If you're willing to take the bet that there will be a working vaccine that imbues life-long immunity to all strains of Covid-19 after a single dose then we can talk. That I am certain will not exist.

[Metallikid]

Ok so do you believe that people shouldn't have been limited in purchasing wipes, paper towels etc? How about limits of food?

I'm not ignoring your point. You're just too focused on yourself and your rights that you're ignoring that they are HUMAN RIGHTS. Human as in everyones. This is why society needs Government.

China isnt a seperate issue. It should be the ONLY issue. A seperate issue is what you're discussing, which is limiting business with them. Problem with that is that we've made China so powerful from a business standpoint that they really have so much control of it. China can just shut down operations since it's their playing field.

However back to my original point, what's the purpose of the UN? Why isn't the UN stepping in and getting a full investigation done with China? How am I so certain that this wasn't a deadly weapon created by China that they were unable to contain? It leaked, which they did not want to happen, which caused attention and a pandemic.

The problem is, nobody wants to go after China because it would be racist and/or considered an invasion.

Let's also not pretend that China doesn't like to keep things secret with how things are there.

Stop worrying about social distancing and it's affect. Then stop blaming a government who is looking for the safety of its people. Then place your full focus onto how this virus, in my opinion, was made.

I'm not going to believe people were eating bats and that's how it's origin came from. There's something deeper that we're not being told.

That's a silly comparison. Wipes and food are products that you could still get some of. I'm not focused just on my rights, I'm focused on the abrogation of everyone's rights and the willingness to buy into that and the fear that has people ignoring the ramifications of what we're doing right now. You'll see when it comes time for school. Mental illness among children will skyrocket. Huge amount of them will be kept home out of fear so they have even less socialization and education - and let's be real parents aren't homeschooling their kids to any significant degree. Online classes barely work in university they sure as hell don't work with highschool kids and younger - I've heard personal stories from people who tried to finish this past year doing online classes.

It's not something deeper we aren't being told, I very clearly believe it was a lab-altered virus that leaked and that the Chinese government being totalitarian hid the information, had a cover-up, suppressed the numbers and whistleblower, disappeared people, lied to their people and world about the disease, allowed people to leave China in huge numbers instead of closing their external borders, and used their influence at the WHO to perpetuate their lies to convince other countries of their side. It's no secret if you do a little digging. I believed the Wuhan wet market theory at first but there has really been no substantive evidence for it since the beginning and more evidence comes out about how this virus is likely not to have evolved naturally. Patient #1 had no contact with the Wuhan wet market at all.

Let me hit you with an example:

In the US, you have Trump who has been unwilling to place orders to protect its people. The media says he is not a leader. Then you have Justin who is applying orders to protect people's health and people are not happy.

This is why I don't support politics and it's a reason why majority of people don't get into discussions about politics because you cannot make everyone happy.

About your point on China, I 100% agree. It's time the UN get involved. These orders are temporary and it will go away once a vaccine is made. If we agree that a vaccine may not be made soon or might not be made yet we're fighting with each other about the health concerns, the economy concerns how about we use all those things and see it through that something happens with China? Something is being created by China and it's much more bigger and a threat to us than these temporary orders.

Oddly enough what I'm talking about is beyond politics. Trump is wrong because he didn't coordinate any substantive federal response. Trudeau actually has had little power to enact what I'm talking about, that's mostly up to Premiers like Ford, but my point is that it doesn't matter if it's popular or the majority wants it, you cannot turn what are emergency powers into regular laws, or there is no such things as emergency powers and the government can do whatever they like and that is a dark and dangerous path that even now is encroaching on our Charter rights.

[Johnny Bball]

There won't be a vaccine. I can almost guarantee that. Either it won't be safe, or it won't be long-lasting, or there won't be enough, or there won't be enough ingredients (especially if it isn't long lasting), or there will be logistical problems in its delivery, or it will be reserved for certain populations and possibly the rich.

Since it's a guarantee....name your stakes. We can escrow the the money, so I can assure I'm paid. I'll bet any reasonable sum.

I'll give you this before decide if you want to ... Both the US and Canadian governments already have the delivery supplies in place, and Canada ordered enough for 75 million doses.

I could give you updates on vaccine progress but that's easy enough to find.

Bu... how did this thread with this title get here!

My statement allowed for the possibility of a vaccine being made, but not one being such that we will ever be able to live without the threat of Covid. As I said, they may not be safe long term (which we would only know about afterwards), or work well enough, or they may not be long-lasting.

If you're willing to take the bet that there will be a working vaccine that imbues life-long immunity to all strains of Covid-19 after a single dose then we can talk. That I am certain will not exist.

I'm betting a vaccine solves the issue whether it has to be repeated or not. You're statement was with so many excuses it's intent is that it doesn't work. I'll bet it works whether it takes more than one shot or not. Most vaccines now are two dose so I fail to see an issue. You can continue saying it won't. I think that's pretty clear what your intent was... doom and gloom.

I lolled at the won't be safe part. If you're an antivax guy, just let me know and we can end this conversation now.

[Metallikid]

Since it's a guarantee....name your stakes. We can escrow the the money, so I can assure I'm paid. I'll bet any reasonable sum.

I'll give you this before decide if you want to ... Both the US and Canadian governments already have the delivery supplies in place, and Canada ordered enough for 75 million doses.

I could give you updates on vaccine progress but that's easy enough to find.

Bu... how did this thread with this title get here!

My statement allowed for the possibility of a vaccine being made, but not one being such that we will ever be able to live without the threat of Covid. As I said, they may not be safe long term (which we would only know about afterwards), or work well enough, or they may not be long-lasting.

If you're willing to take the bet that there will be a working vaccine that imbues life-long immunity to all strains of Covid-19 after a single dose then we can talk. That I am certain will not exist.

I'm betting a vaccine solves the issue whether it has to be repeated or not. You're statement was with so many excuses it's intent is that it doesn't work. I'll bet it works whether it takes more than one shot or not. Most vaccines now are two dose so I fail to see an issue. You can continue saying it won't. I think that's pretty clear what your intent was... doom and gloom.

No, I mean it would have to be like the flu shot where you have to get it every 4-6 months and it wouldn't cover every strain; I would include a 2-shot if you say it will provide life-long immunity like Measles or Mumps. My point is that there will not be a vaccine that removes the COVID threat. That I am willing to bet on. And it's not my intent to be doom and gloom, it's an unfortunate result that is the by-product of the research I've done.

[Johnny Bball]

My statement allowed for the possibility of a vaccine being made, but not one being such that we will ever be able to live without the threat of Covid. As I said, they may not be safe long term (which we would only know about afterwards), or work well enough, or they may not be long-lasting.

If you're willing to take the bet that there will be a working vaccine that imbues life-long immunity to all strains of Covid-19 after a single dose then we can talk. That I am certain will not exist.

I'm betting a vaccine solves the issue whether it has to be repeated or not. You're statement was with so many excuses it's intent is that it doesn't work. I'll bet it works whether it takes more than one shot or not. Most vaccines now are two dose so I fail to see an issue. You can continue saying it won't. I think that's pretty clear what your intent was... doom and gloom.

No, I mean it would have to be like the flu shot where you have to get it every 4-6 months and it wouldn't cover every strain; I would include a 2-shot if you say it will provide life-long immunity like Measles or Mumps. My point is that there will not be a vaccine that removes the COVID threat. That I am willing to bet on. And it's not my intent to be doom and gloom, it's an unfortunate result that is the by-product of the research I've done.

Then how is that a problem if it works? But that's not all you stated and was NOT your only point...

You questioned delivery... they have the supplies and have solved are solving it. This started months ago and shouldn't even be a question if you're staying up to date.

You question ingredients without know what it's made from obviously. Pfizer alone has plans to manufacture 100 million does in December alone.

There won't be enough? There are a hundred companies working on this that will all come up with various different solutions and trying to produce a billion doses each. I don't think supply will be the issue unless everyone fails, and you would have known that prior to Phase 3 trials.

Governments are pre-ordering so I fail to see how it's only the rich when the first people that should get it will be the elderly and healthcare workers, in a system of socialized medicine.

Since it's already in Phase 3 trials, the intent of that is to prove its safe (and effective) which you questioned.

MMR you got it at two different ages, three times probably. Tetanus/diphtheria is not lifelong. There are a number of vaccines that require additional shots later.

Your research? I dunno man... my work was about how small exposures of substances can harm people so I'm pretty comfortable with dead virus vaccines, regardless of what else they put in it.

Remove the covid threat with one shot? Look at your post, that wasn't really your point unless you really expressed it badly. And it's the only reason I even responded, because you're probably scaring someone out there for absolutely no reason without knowing most of the details.

[realball]

As if the government could stop people gathering whenever they wanted if they actually chose to. Sure, there won't be 'an official' parade, but there will be large gatherings more and more the longer this goes on. And to be honest an easy workaround is just saying your large event is a protest, and also there were protests. Freedom of assembly is a Charter right in Canada. The government does not have the ability to stop people from gathering indefinitely. They are only able to do so with emergency powers and those cannot be made indefinite.

What the hell are you talking about? The government can stop the official parade, but you think somehow thousands of people are still going to somehow organize their own parade or something, masked as a protest???

Are you like 12? No one with a straight head cares about basketball enough to be endangering themselves because of a championship right now. Do you remember how many kids were at the last parade? Do you think parents are going to be lining up for the parade this year or something? Don't act like a championship parade is anything like a protest, people came out to protest an important issue. Celebrating a god damn basketball trophy is not important.

We've been in lockdown for less than 6 months. Countries have been in wartime for 10x longer. Stop acting like this going to continue "indefinitely", it's not the end of the world. A missed parade two months from now doesn't mean we're going to stay in lockdown forever.

People will celebrate because shared group experiences are the core of human life.

In wartime people can still see their friends and loved ones up close and hug them and socialize and gather at private places close to other people. Wartime is usually about rationing and curfews. If you're going to argue that we're living like we're in Nazi occupied Eastern Europe then guess what, people won't live that like for that long when they realize it isn't going to be going away anytime soon.

People still came out and partied when Liverpool won the BPL. Lots of people are willing to take a risk to enjoy life. Eventually we all will have to.

Actually, I think life is the core of human life, and most people are actually worried about endangering their own life and their loved ones by gathering in huge groups. I have no doubt that people will party on the streets the night the Raptors win the championship, you can't stop everyone from doing whatever they want. But there won't be a parade a couple days after. You are out of your mind if you think the Raptors or the city or anyone else is going to organize something like that.

And did you just try to imply that wartime is somehow better than this lol? I am saying the opposite of what you think I'm saying: we're not living in gulags. Most people have been able to move on with their lives. Most people have found ways to stay in touch with other people. We're moving into stage 3 and most people are adjusting to this kind of lifestyle. Most people are starting to go and see people outside their bubble, just not in the same way as before. Masks and hand sanitizer are a sacrifice most people have been willing to make. We all want concerts, parades, clubs, and misc. to open up, but once again, a sacrifice people are making for the bigger picture.

[Clay Davis]

Ya and we will be able to use AR to experience it in first person kinda like roller-coaster tycoon.