Indiana Pacers Draft Pick Watch Thread

Badgerlander · Post #921 » by **Badgerlander** » Thu Jul 30, 2020 3:56 pm

Riller shot chart

Badgerlander · Post #922 » by **Badgerlander** » Sat Aug 1, 2020 11:28 am

Read on Twitter

?s=21

LuessiT · Post #923 » by **LuessiT** » Sat Aug 1, 2020 2:08 pm

Badgerlander wrote:

Read on Twitter
?s=21

This just doesn't make sense for me. Buddy was the best shooter in his class, was also a senior (and a bit older at that), undersized, a negative defender, at best a neutral passer and went #6.

Banes evaluation makes no sense to me. For the record I don't think he's the best shooter in the draft, but he belongs in the top 5. And I have him in the top 20 of draft prospects - easily.

German Athens · Post #924 » by **German Athens** » Sat Aug 1, 2020 2:34 pm

LuessiT wrote:
Badgerlander wrote:

Read on Twitter
?s=21

This just doesn't make sense for me. Buddy was the best shooter in his class, was also a senior (and a bit older at that), undersized, a negative defender, at best a neutral passer and went #6.

Banes evaluation makes no sense to me. For the record I don't think he's the best shooter in the draft, but he belongs in the top 5. And I have him in the top 20 of draft prospects - easily.

Yeah, this is interesting. And perhaps the buddy-bane comparison really comes down to the perception of a player with an elite skill vs the perception of a player with very high level skills in a couple areas, but not quite elite.

For those who do think bane is the best shooter in the draft and don’t have him a top 10 pick, I guess we could say that being the top in your draft doesn’t necessarily mean you’ll be the top relative to other drafts or that you will surely be a great shooter in the league. Maybe this class doesn’t have elite shooters (I think Howard is, but I don’t think he’ll stick in the league)

I think buddy was viewed as a guy who would be an elite nba shooter (one of those rare shooters who doesn’t come around in every class) which, by and large, he’s been. I also think buddy may have been viewed as a guy with decent enough wiggle where you might be able to project him as a good nba scorer and not just a 1 dimensional shooter.

Lastly, iirc, I think buddy was often projected mid to late lotto, and was drafted a bit early in a lot of people’s minds.

I think there’s a way where you look at buddy and say “yeah, he’ll kill defenses in this way” where I’m not sure it’s as obvious with bane.

BucksFanSD · Post #925 » by **BucksFanSD** » Sat Aug 1, 2020 4:55 pm

Hield was mocked early 20s going into his senior year at OU. Then he tore it up his senior year and had everyone figured he was going somewhere in the lottery.

Bane had similar production to Hield his Junior year. Bane's senior year was more of the same of his Junior year.

I would have Bane going early 20s if it wasn't for his short wingspan. 6'4 compared to Hield's 6'9. That can't be ignored. Based on everything I see Bane going early 2nd. Would be surprised if he goes Top 20.

emunney · Post #926 » by **emunney** » Sat Aug 1, 2020 5:04 pm

LuessiT wrote:
Badgerlander wrote:

Read on Twitter
?s=21

This just doesn't make sense for me. Buddy was the best shooter in his class, was also a senior (and a bit older at that), undersized, a negative defender, at best a neutral passer and went #6.

Banes evaluation makes no sense to me. For the record I don't think he's the best shooter in the draft, but he belongs in the top 5. And I have him in the top 20 of draft prospects - easily.

Buddy had huge volume though, and many if not most felt he was overdrafted.

Badgerlander · Post #927 » by **Badgerlander** » Sat Aug 1, 2020 5:42 pm

emunney wrote:
LuessiT wrote:
Badgerlander wrote:

Read on Twitter
?s=21

This just doesn't make sense for me. Buddy was the best shooter in his class, was also a senior (and a bit older at that), undersized, a negative defender, at best a neutral passer and went #6.

Banes evaluation makes no sense to me. For the record I don't think he's the best shooter in the draft, but he belongs in the top 5. And I have him in the top 20 of draft prospects - easily.

Buddy had huge volume though, and many if not most felt he was overdrafted.

Yeah the Kings owner thought Buddy was the next Steph Curry

Post #928 » by **ReasonablySober** » Sat Aug 1, 2020 6:18 pm

Joe's returned to college.

LuessiT · Post #929 » by **LuessiT** » Sat Aug 1, 2020 6:54 pm

Badgerlander wrote:
emunney wrote:
LuessiT wrote:
This just doesn't make sense for me. Buddy was the best shooter in his class, was also a senior (and a bit older at that), undersized, a negative defender, at best a neutral passer and went #6.

Banes evaluation makes no sense to me. For the record I don't think he's the best shooter in the draft, but he belongs in the top 5. And I have him in the top 20 of draft prospects - easily.

Buddy had huge volume though, and many if not most felt he was overdrafted.

Yeah the Kings owner thought Buddy was the next Steph Curry

Don't misunderstand me: I'm not directly comparing Buddy to Bane. My point is that when I'm looking at what worked and didn't work in past drafts, I feel like specifially mocks don't really 'get' what makes a good or a bad draft pick. In a redraft, Buddy probably still goes somewhere around his draft spot (I have Simmons, Ingram, Siakam, Brown and Murray ahead of him with guys like Brogdon, Sabonis and the other Murray in the mix). Looking back at it, drafting him #6 wasn't a reach and he didn't take an unlikely trajectory.

When you now focus on how much Buddy contributed so far in his NBA career compared to other players and how he was a primary piece to in a trade returning an all-star, he brought significant value to the team drafting him. And that part is important.
For example if you're the Lakers you have to treat Brandon Ingram as a failed draft pick. Not because he's not the second best player in the draft (he's possibly the best) but because you used the #2 pick on him, he arguably played worse than a player making as much as he did over his 3 years there and in the trade package he was used in he was valued lesser than the #2 pick used on him.
There are plenty of high draft picks that barely contribute before being locked into a toxic contract or are traded. Even if Buddy never lives up to his contract given, the team that drafted him got significant value for picking him. Having players that can contribute immediately and possibly be used as a trade chip before having to hand them a contract represent tremendous value in a draft.

Simply put when you consider a guy that immediately can play the top shooter in the draft while being a plus defender and plus playmaker and you have to argue for him being in your top 20 something is wrong. Either Bane is not the guy you think he is or you need to value him way higher. Or - and that is what I think is often the case - you're valueing him way higher but are afraid of voicing your opinion because of backlash.

Badgerlander · Post #930 » by **Badgerlander** » Sun Aug 2, 2020 9:20 pm

LuessiT wrote:Simply put when you consider a guy that immediately can play the top shooter in the draft while being a plus defender and plus playmaker and you have to argue for him being in your top 20 something is wrong. Either Bane is not the guy you think he is or you need to value him way higher. Or - and that is what I think is often the case - you're valueing him way higher but are afraid of voicing your opinion because of backlash.

I don’t think many expect Bane to be a plus defender or a plus playmaker though, especially not out of the gate maybe eventually if he’s got a killer work ethic.

LuessiT · Post #931 » by **LuessiT** » Sun Aug 2, 2020 9:41 pm

Badgerlander wrote:
LuessiT wrote:Simply put when you consider a guy that immediately can play the top shooter in the draft while being a plus defender and plus playmaker and you have to argue for him being in your top 20 something is wrong. Either Bane is not the guy you think he is or you need to value him way higher. Or - and that is what I think is often the case - you're valueing him way higher but are afraid of voicing your opinion because of backlash.

I don’t think many expect Bane to be a plus defender or a plus playmaker though, especially not out of the gate maybe eventually if he’s got a killer work ethic.

I mean the twitter user you're quoting is and he's only argueing for a top 20 spot. That's the thing. I have Bane in my top 20 right now and I don't view him as a plus defender, I've got him right on the edge of being a top 5 shooter in his class and while I do think he can make plays, I don't see him as a ball handler any time soon. If one rates him that much more favorably in multiple areas you'd expect a much bigger impact on his draft stock. Or maybe I'm just rating immediate production too high.

RiotPunch · Post #932 » by **RiotPunch** » Sun Aug 2, 2020 10:22 pm

ReasonablySober wrote:Joe's returned to college.

Expected, but still sucks.

If he can get his weight up closer to 200, and there's some positive regression to the mean with his shooting, he could sneak into late lottery territory next year, IMO.

RiotPunch · Post #933 » by **RiotPunch** » Sun Aug 2, 2020 10:39 pm

LuessiT wrote:
Badgerlander wrote:
LuessiT wrote:Simply put when you consider a guy that immediately can play the top shooter in the draft while being a plus defender and plus playmaker and you have to argue for him being in your top 20 something is wrong. Either Bane is not the guy you think he is or you need to value him way higher. Or - and that is what I think is often the case - you're valueing him way higher but are afraid of voicing your opinion because of backlash.

I don’t think many expect Bane to be a plus defender or a plus playmaker though, especially not out of the gate maybe eventually if he’s got a killer work ethic.

I mean the twitter user you're quoting is and he's only argueing for a top 20 spot. That's the thing. I have Bane in my top 20 right now and I don't view him as a plus defender, I've got him right on the edge of being a top 5 shooter in his class and while I do think he can make plays, I don't see him as a ballhandler any time soon. If one rates him that much more favorably in multiple areas you'd expect a much bigger impact on his draft stock.

A case can be made for Bane being the best all-around shooter in the class, just considering his on/off ball shot profile and his consistent mechanics. I also think it's reasonable to expect Bane to be a plus defender OFF BALL on day one. He may never be a non-negative defender at the POA, let alone a plus there. He's a two-to-three dribble and make the right read type of playmaker right now as well, but is sloppy driving to the hoop.

Best overall shooter, plus team defender, plus playmaker out of PnR/attacking close-outs. That's a reasonable assessment. Does that sound like a top-10 pick? Maybe.

Factoring in the short arms, being 22 years old, lateral quickness issues, below-average driving/finishing... starting to sound more like a mid-1st, IMO, and I'm a huge stan.

LuessiT wrote:Or maybe I'm just rating immediate production too high.

That is the philosophical variance between teams/evaluators/whoever. What do you value, do you play it safe or roll the dice, who fits best with our current group, what do YOU need to save your job, etc.

Ron Swanson · Post #934 » by **Ron Swanson** » Mon Aug 3, 2020 1:34 pm

I think you can make a case that Bane is the best college shooter (considering his volume and efficiency). I think it's really, really hard to make a case that he's gonna be the best NBA shooter out of this class.

That's where the disconnect is, for me.

emunney · Post #935 » by **emunney** » Mon Aug 3, 2020 1:42 pm

Probably have said this 10x in this thread but how is anybody making the case that anybody but Markus Howard is the best NCAA shooter?

Badgerlander · Post #936 » by **Badgerlander** » Mon Aug 3, 2020 2:31 pm

RiotPunch wrote:
ReasonablySober wrote:Joe's returned to college.

Expected, but still sucks. If he can get his weight up closer to 200, and there's some positive regression to the mean with his shooting, he could sneak into late lottery territory next year, IMO.

Jared Butler pulling out of the draft too. I’m a little surprised at guys pulling out of the draft with the rash of colleges announcing this week that they are going with online classes in the fall. I’d have to put the chances of having a college basketball season 50/50 at best right now.

Post #937 » by **Ruzious** » Mon Aug 3, 2020 3:02 pm

BucksFanSD wrote:Hield was mocked early 20s going into his senior year at OU. Then he tore it up his senior year and had everyone figured he was going somewhere in the lottery.

Bane had similar production to Hield his Junior year. Bane's senior year was more of the same of his Junior year.

I would have Bane going early 20s if it wasn't for his short wingspan. 6'4 compared to Hield's 6'9. That can't be ignored. Based on everything I see Bane going early 2nd. Would be surprised if he goes Top 20.

His poor wingspan is definitely going to hurt, but... I read somewhere that his standing reach is only 1 inch shorter than average for a 2, and that combined with his quick release and strength to create room means that he's not going to have trouble getting his shot blocked in the NBA, imo.

I'd still take Saddiq Bey over him. And if Aleksej Pokuševski slips to the Indy pick, I'd have to pick him based on potential.

BucksFanSD · Post #938 » by **BucksFanSD** » Mon Aug 3, 2020 3:25 pm

The Athletic reporting Tyrell Terry grew an inch and gained some muscle onto his small frame in the off season. If true, he's who I want, over Kira Lewis.

RiotPunch · Post #939 » by **RiotPunch** » Mon Aug 3, 2020 8:21 pm

emunney wrote:Probably have said this 10x in this thread but how is anybody making the case that anybody but Markus Howard is the best NCAA shooter?

I just don't think he comes up often due to him being a fringe 2nd round, priority two way type prospect. But yeah, as just a pure shooter he is in a tier of his own.

emunney · Post #940 » by **emunney** » Mon Aug 3, 2020 8:24 pm

BucksFanSD wrote:The Athletic reporting Tyrell Terry grew an inch and gained some muscle onto his small frame in the off season. If true, he's who I want, over Kira Lewis.

Sounds like he may be in the best shape of his life and ready to show what he can do. If so I do believe we have our first NBA Draft Bingo, please step to the front to claim your prize (it is Cracklin' Oat Bran).