Scott Perry rejected the notion on sending players to G-League, feeling it would be perceived as too big a demotion

[Deeeez Knicks]

these two can be directly related to not developing your players though. No one is saying hey Knox stinks and we didn't develop him that was a missed chance at a superstar. But Knox not developing can also not make him a future asset that you can trade as an asset in a bigger deal so you don't have to just move future picks. You can move players + picks.

I don't think anyone is saying hey we are missing a chance developing a star. I think you either pick a star for the most part or you don't and get lucky and you know pretty early. But you can help your chances landing a star if you develop the young talent you have because it makes you more interesting for a potential trade partner.

So if we don't know how to develop young talent that even puts us farther behind the 8-ball in terms of now only have to luck into drafting one. The other options like FA and Trades will be more challenging because we are incompetent at developing young talent.

i don't think knox is failing because of a lack of development. he's failing because he's just not very good. they can only do so much to affect his personality and competitive drive. and they can't change his physical makeup either. he is who he is. is he failing because of his skill set or because of the things i just mentioned ? he has a good looking shot but can't shoot. he's too slow to be a wing and too soft to play the 4. you can't change that through development.

Lack of development, not picking the right player. All the same thing when it comes into a knock on our front office in the past.

Yea, I think it is all related and the front office has failed in multiple ways.

I think Knox was a bad pick, but we have also developed him poorly. Both can be true. Not to say with good development he would be a star, but maybe he wouldnt be one of the worst players in the league. That alone wouldnt do a lot, but if we draft better, develop better, it starts to add up and gives us a better chance.

I do agree that until we get star(s) or top tier talent we probably wont be great. But we can do some little things to help.. The Knicks have probably been the worst team at developing and keeping young players. We still havent extended any notable draft pick to multiple years since Charlie Ward....that says a lot. I just hope we start doing things differently.

[Oscirus]

Read on Twitter

While Thibodeau is the sensible candidate to rep the Knicks during lottery proceedings Aug. 20, make no mistake: This is still Perry’s draft.

it seems as tho Perry isn't as powerless now as some fans think

Good, last time Perry listened to others in a draft, we got Knox and we're all seeing whats happened with that.

[Capn'O]

Honestly, I don't have much of an issue vis a vis Garland vs. Barrett. RJ ended the season very strong and is a good prospect. There's a very good chance that RJ becomes the better player and some chance that it won't be very close.

The draft the year before was a huge mistake. We picked a player that was clearly the biggest project with lowest floor of a large group of, in my view then and now, better prospects. Thank God for Mitch.

[rajajackal]

RJ is gonna be our Paul Pierce and ya'll are gonna like it

[Capn'O]

the thing is....all the stuff people fret over on here are the minute details. we need to work on the basics first. the knicks need high end talent. that's it. that's what it's all about. through the draft, free agency, trade, it doesn't really matter. just gotta get it somehow. if rose can do that, he'll succeed. if not he'll fail.

Even if they're not high end stars, drafting and development bolster trade potential. We could have the pieces to make the big trade if we amass a couple of pieces. Look at how the Wolves got Butler, for example. Or the Thunder got Paul George. Granted, Indy made out like bandits.

[GONYK]

Honestly, I don't have much of an issue vis a vis Garland vs. Barrett. RJ ended the season very strong and is a good prospect. There's a very good chance that RJ becomes the better player and some chance that it won't be very close.

The draft the year before was a huge mistake. We picked a player that was clearly the biggest project with lowest floor of a large group of, in my view then and now, better prospects. Thank God for Mitch.

It would have been Garland and another pick for Barrett essentially.

I'm interested in knowing what the additional pick was.

[Capn'O]

Honestly, I don't have much of an issue vis a vis Garland vs. Barrett. RJ ended the season very strong and is a good prospect. There's a very good chance that RJ becomes the better player and some chance that it won't be very close.

The draft the year before was a huge mistake. We picked a player that was clearly the biggest project with lowest floor of a large group of, in my view then and now, better prospects. Thank God for Mitch.

It would have been Garland and another pick for Barrett essentially.

I'm interested in knowing what the additional pick was.

I suppose the devil is in the details. Probably one of these?

2022 first round draft pick from Milwaukee
Milwaukee's 1st round pick to Cleveland protected for selections 1-10 in 2022 (if Milwaukee conveys a 1st round pick to Boston in 2020), 1-10 and 25-30 in 2023 and 1-8 in 2024; if Milwaukee has not conveyed a 1st round pick to Cleveland by 2024, then Milwaukee will instead convey its 2024 2nd round pick and 2025 2nd round pick to Cleveland [Cleveland-Milwaukee-Washington, 12/7/2018]

2022 second round draft pick from Houston
Houston's 2022 2nd round pick to Cleveland [Cleveland-Houston-Sacramento, 2/7/2019]

2022 second round draft pick from San Antonio
San Antonio's 2022 2nd round pick to Cleveland (via Utah) [San Antonio-Utah, 7/7/2016; Cleveland-Utah, 12/23/2019]

2022 second round draft pick from Washington
Washington's 2022 2nd round pick to Cleveland [Cleveland-Milwaukee-Washington, 12/7/2018]

2023 second round draft pick from Golden State (Cleveland outgoing to Detroit)
Cleveland will receive the more favorable of its 2023 2nd round pick and Golden State's 2023 2nd round pick and Detroit will receive the less favorable of the two (via New Orleans to Utah to Cleveland) [Golden State-New Orleans, 6/20/2019; New Orleans-Utah, 7/7/2019; Cleveland-Utah, 12/24/2019; Cleveland-Detroit, 2/6/2020]

So maybe the Milwaukie pick? If it was a Cleveland first... yeah, we should have done that. But otherwise, there's not that much reason to futz around with a high pick and better prospect.

[Clyde_Style]

Honestly, I don't have much of an issue vis a vis Garland vs. Barrett. RJ ended the season very strong and is a good prospect. There's a very good chance that RJ becomes the better player and some chance that it won't be very close.

The draft the year before was a huge mistake. We picked a player that was clearly the biggest project with lowest floor of a large group of, in my view then and now, better prospects. Thank God for Mitch.

If we were going to take a flyer on Knox, we might as well have rolled the dice on MPJr instead. He was injured, but had legit upside.

[god shammgod]

the thing is....all the stuff people fret over on here are the minute details. we need to work on the basics first. the knicks need high end talent. that's it. that's what it's all about. through the draft, free agency, trade, it doesn't really matter. just gotta get it somehow. if rose can do that, he'll succeed. if not he'll fail.

Even if they're not high end stars, drafting and development bolster trade potential. We could have the pieces to make the big trade if we amass a couple of pieces. Look at how the Wolves got Butler, for example. Or the Thunder got Paul George. Granted, Indy made out like bandits.

we could make that kind of trade now. we just don't have the other all-star piece here already. okc had westbrook & the wolves had kat. they drafted their stars. and at the time, everyone thought okc robbed indy. oladipo had a jump in year 6 which is highly unusual. and with how he looks now, we might look back and realize it was really just 1 good year.

[Capn'O]

the thing is....all the stuff people fret over on here are the minute details. we need to work on the basics first. the knicks need high end talent. that's it. that's what it's all about. through the draft, free agency, trade, it doesn't really matter. just gotta get it somehow. if rose can do that, he'll succeed. if not he'll fail.

Even if they're not high end stars, drafting and development bolster trade potential. We could have the pieces to make the big trade if we amass a couple of pieces. Look at how the Wolves got Butler, for example. Or the Thunder got Paul George. Granted, Indy made out like bandits.

we could make that kind of trade now. we just don't have the other all-star piece here already. okc had westbrook & the wolves had kat. they drafted their stars. and at the time, everyone thought okc robbed indy. oladipo had a jump in year 6 which is highly unusual. and with how he looks now, we might look back and realize it was really just 1 good year.

Sabonis too.

Yeah, we're close to having the ability to make that trade. RJ or Mitch could become that piece as well. As you keep saying - gotta keep drafting. I'll add that we should be looking for bargain youth to lock in at longer deals in free agency now.

[god shammgod]

Even if they're not high end stars, drafting and development bolster trade potential. We could have the pieces to make the big trade if we amass a couple of pieces. Look at how the Wolves got Butler, for example. Or the Thunder got Paul George. Granted, Indy made out like bandits.

we could make that kind of trade now. we just don't have the other all-star piece here already. okc had westbrook & the wolves had kat. they drafted their stars. and at the time, everyone thought okc robbed indy. oladipo had a jump in year 6 which is highly unusual. and with how he looks now, we might look back and realize it was really just 1 good year.

Sabonis too.

Yeah, we're close to having the ability to make that trade. RJ or Mitch could become that piece as well. As you keep saying - gotta keep drafting. I'll add that we should be looking for bargain youth to lock in at longer deals in free agency now.

if it was up to me, they would stay in the draft for awhile. but it aint.

[Gravy]

i don't think knox is failing because of a lack of development. he's failing because he's just not very good. they can only do so much to affect his personality and competitive drive. and they can't change his physical makeup either. he is who he is. is he failing because of his skill set or because of the things i just mentioned ? he has a good looking shot but can't shoot. he's too slow to be a wing and too soft to play the 4. you can't change that through development.

Lack of development, not picking the right player. All the same thing when it comes into a knock on our front office in the past.

Yea, I think it is all related and the front office has failed in multiple ways.

I think Knox was a bad pick, but we have also developed him poorly. Both can be true. Not to say with good development he would be a star, but maybe he wouldnt be one of the worst players in the league. That alone wouldnt do a lot, but if we draft better, develop better, it starts to add up and gives us a better chance.

I do agree that until we get star(s) or top tier talent we probably wont be great. But we can do some little things to help.. The Knicks have probably been the worst team at developing and keeping young players. We still havent extended any notable draft pick to multiple years since Charlie Ward....that says a lot. I just hope we start doing things differently.

Would Timmy count as someone we extended? You can say we sent him off to be developed elsewhere and then gave him a contract when he showed potential.

Then there was the big question on giving KP a max with his injury concerns.

[DaGawd]

we could make that kind of trade now. we just don't have the other all-star piece here already. okc had westbrook & the wolves had kat. they drafted their stars. and at the time, everyone thought okc robbed indy. oladipo had a jump in year 6 which is highly unusual. and with how he looks now, we might look back and realize it was really just 1 good year.

Sabonis too.

Yeah, we're close to having the ability to make that trade. RJ or Mitch could become that piece as well. As you keep saying - gotta keep drafting. I'll add that we should be looking for bargain youth to lock in at longer deals in free agency now.

if it was up to me, they would stay in the draft for awhile. but it aint.

If you're in the draft for ever you're drafting and player development might be the bigger issue

[god shammgod]

Sabonis too.

Yeah, we're close to having the ability to make that trade. RJ or Mitch could become that piece as well. As you keep saying - gotta keep drafting. I'll add that we should be looking for bargain youth to lock in at longer deals in free agency now.

if it was up to me, they would stay in the draft for awhile. but it aint.

If you're in the draft for ever you're drafting and player development might be the bigger issue

we are hardly ever in the right part of the draft which is 1-5. lot of guys at 8, 9, 10 turn to nothing special. it's harder there. it's more about that than development. the pelicans are a team with good young talent. zion was 1st in the draft. b.i. was picked 2nd. lonzo was picked 2nd. it's not hard to figure out.

[Deeeez Knicks]

Even if they're not high end stars, drafting and development bolster trade potential. We could have the pieces to make the big trade if we amass a couple of pieces. Look at how the Wolves got Butler, for example. Or the Thunder got Paul George. Granted, Indy made out like bandits.

we could make that kind of trade now. we just don't have the other all-star piece here already. okc had westbrook & the wolves had kat. they drafted their stars. and at the time, everyone thought okc robbed indy. oladipo had a jump in year 6 which is highly unusual. and with how he looks now, we might look back and realize it was really just 1 good year.

Sabonis too.

Yeah, we're close to having the ability to make that trade. RJ or Mitch could become that piece as well. As you keep saying - gotta keep drafting. I'll add that we should be looking for bargain youth to lock in at longer deals in free agency now.

Mitch and RJ are good examples of our bad development too. RJ probably wont even make an all-rookie team. Mitch barely played 20mpg, didnt make the rising stars game and didnt really look like he improved that much. Not even sure how much value they have around the league...probably not as much as they should. Just seems like they should be better then what they have shown.

It's not all pure development. A lot of it is just not putting them in good positions to succeed. I think that is all related too.
We make it difficult for players to do well here, just based on the amount of coaches, roster turmoil, putting players in bad roles, inconsistencies, bad fitting rosters, etc. They are getting by on talent and physical abilities they came here with, but not much else. And a lot of players around can see the situation here. It gets ugly. Probably a reason nobody wants to come here unless we throw them a bag.

[Deeeez Knicks]

Lack of development, not picking the right player. All the same thing when it comes into a knock on our front office in the past.

Yea, I think it is all related and the front office has failed in multiple ways.

I think Knox was a bad pick, but we have also developed him poorly. Both can be true. Not to say with good development he would be a star, but maybe he wouldnt be one of the worst players in the league. That alone wouldnt do a lot, but if we draft better, develop better, it starts to add up and gives us a better chance.

I do agree that until we get star(s) or top tier talent we probably wont be great. But we can do some little things to help.. The Knicks have probably been the worst team at developing and keeping young players. We still havent extended any notable draft pick to multiple years since Charlie Ward....that says a lot. I just hope we start doing things differently.

Would Timmy count as someone we extended? You can say we sent him off to be developed elsewhere and then gave him a contract when he showed potential.

Then there was the big question on giving KP a max with his injury concerns.

I wouldnt count him. He only played 3 1/2 seasons here. We traded him, he developed in Atl, then we overpaid for him to come back, then he looked horrible here, then we had to include him in a salary dump trade, now he looks decent in Dallas again. If anything it shows how we fail at development and putting players in the right positions to do well

[HEZI]

Knox is a scorer so he needs minutes and he needs shots. The thing I saw with him this season was he lost confidence and there was really no role for him on the team which factored into his lost confidence. The team signed like 30 forwards in the summer, all vets, and didn't really have a plan for Knox in terms of on court production. Now, I will say this, for the long run it's not the worst thing that could have happened to him IF those vets taught him something and IF the lack of playing time fueled something in him to keep working and getting better.

But there is no question that Knox would have looked a lot better this year if they played him more minutes and allowed him to shoot and look to score more. The dude is skilled, yes he's still got ways to go, but he's still a very skilled player. You gotta know what he is though, he's a scorer, so playing him 18 minutes a game and only 6 shots a game you aren't really allowing him to do the things he needs to do to grow, things like finding his rhythm, knowing when and where his shots are coming from, running plays for him and keeping him engaged in the offense, etc. The things we were doing with him last season especially after the AS break towards the end of the season, none of those things happened this year. How that impacts his growth in the future remains to be seen.

[Garbagelo]

As usual, they bungle everything up

They are unable to ever get a clean slate because they continue putting the cart in front of the horse and that cart happens to be filled with bricks and the horse is actually a pony. Brain cells actually matter and we can't buy one because we are capped out.

And yes, this rebuild will fail too

"This is still Perry's draft"

I saw nothing in that article that really supported that.
I read stuff that stated "Perry is still around, was in the zoom meeting, is doing some pro scouting in Orlando, and will be at the draft in person when it happens"

And Berman takes those words that he wrote, and says the most agitating thing he can, because that's what he does: "Make no mistake, this is Perry's draft"

Let's be a little sensible. Sure the Knicks could f*ck this whole thing up. That's a given. But that could happen no matter what Perry's role is or isn't.

The guy is under contract for a year. He has the title of GM, the job he was hired for. What, all of a sudden they aren't going to let the guy talk at a press conference (zoom)? Not talk to the press? Not do some scouting? Not have his ass on a draft dais?

This is what I think happened:
- Dolan insisted Perry stay on until end of contract because $
- Rose was willing for multiple reasons:
- For transition, particular under the 'rona conditions
- That he can sideline Perry to a degree - guys above AND below him in the org have been replaced. Two Asst GM types Perry hired have their contracts up in August - a few posters helpfully pointed that out to me
- That Perry is liked and respected around the league as a FO guy if not a GM and has relationships around the league. Rose is a relationships guy, understands their value. He's not going to come in and sh*t on Perry's head.

- I think there is a kind of diplomatic dance going on. The Knicks state Perry is still the GM, but he's not REALLY the GM. He's doing Asst GM stuff. He's EXECUTING stuff, because he knows how things work, but other people are doing the leg work, the vision, the choices. And the Rose isn't going to embarrass Perry by obviously publicly sidelining him. The delicate part is that Perry get treated with respect INTERNALLY, stuff we don't see. Where Perry knows he's on the outs, where Rose knows he's on the outs. Where Perry knows Rose knows (I suppose) but he is given enough to do and treated with some respect and dignity. Both to make the year go well, and also so Perry doesn't start trashing the new regime back channel.

I don't know. The Knicks could be dumb enough to let the lame duck guy draft again like with Phil, but there's also the case that Berman seeded that idea to create another story later on about "Knicks dysfunction". And with Dolan around, Knicks dysfunction is real, but I just don't trust Berman and I laid out another pretty plausible scenario.

It's not wholly "Perry's draft". Perry's team drafted Knox, which sucked, but also got Mitch and picked up Trier UDFA. They moved up a few spots for Iggy, but obviously verdict is out on that, other than I think it was solid to pick up a guy I think is clearly a bench contributor and they spent some $ to capitalize on the luck that the guy had dropped maybe 5-8 slots in the draft and ensured the luck didn't evaporate one slot before them. So Perry will get to participate and suggest, but I think it's Perrin/Zannin who have the last word with Rose.

Yes, I wish they would have let Perry go and got a new GM in.

We didn't hire Perrin and Kline for Scott Perry to be the ultimate decision maker

No bet is too small to be hedged when it comes to Dolan's Knicks

He let Grunwald run the draft and trade for Bargnani, then fired him.... a few days later.

He let Phil run the draft then fired him. He then lets Mills sign THJ and Baker before hiring Scott Perry to be the GM....a few days later.

He will let Scott Perry to run the draft and free agency. Then fire him...a few days later.

That's how it works. That's how it's always worked.

[Zenzibar]

we could make that kind of trade now. we just don't have the other all-star piece here already. okc had westbrook & the wolves had kat. they drafted their stars. and at the time, everyone thought okc robbed indy. oladipo had a jump in year 6 which is highly unusual. and with how he looks now, we might look back and realize it was really just 1 good year.

Sabonis too.

Yeah, we're close to having the ability to make that trade. RJ or Mitch could become that piece as well. As you keep saying - gotta keep drafting. I'll add that we should be looking for bargain youth to lock in at longer deals in free agency now.

if it was up to me, they would stay in the draft for awhile. but it aint.

But then again, look att he 76rs for exmple. They are a mess about to be broken up and perhaps another rebuild coming. They've drafted Noel, Okafor, Embiid and all have been a problem of sorts. Even Simmons is sort of an enigma, with his poor shooting.

My feeling is that have to stop the rebuild after ths year.

[thebuzzardman]

"This is still Perry's draft"

I saw nothing in that article that really supported that.
I read stuff that stated "Perry is still around, was in the zoom meeting, is doing some pro scouting in Orlando, and will be at the draft in person when it happens"

And Berman takes those words that he wrote, and says the most agitating thing he can, because that's what he does: "Make no mistake, this is Perry's draft"

Let's be a little sensible. Sure the Knicks could f*ck this whole thing up. That's a given. But that could happen no matter what Perry's role is or isn't.

The guy is under contract for a year. He has the title of GM, the job he was hired for. What, all of a sudden they aren't going to let the guy talk at a press conference (zoom)? Not talk to the press? Not do some scouting? Not have his ass on a draft dais?

This is what I think happened:
- Dolan insisted Perry stay on until end of contract because $
- Rose was willing for multiple reasons:
- For transition, particular under the 'rona conditions
- That he can sideline Perry to a degree - guys above AND below him in the org have been replaced. Two Asst GM types Perry hired have their contracts up in August - a few posters helpfully pointed that out to me
- That Perry is liked and respected around the league as a FO guy if not a GM and has relationships around the league. Rose is a relationships guy, understands their value. He's not going to come in and sh*t on Perry's head.

- I think there is a kind of diplomatic dance going on. The Knicks state Perry is still the GM, but he's not REALLY the GM. He's doing Asst GM stuff. He's EXECUTING stuff, because he knows how things work, but other people are doing the leg work, the vision, the choices. And the Rose isn't going to embarrass Perry by obviously publicly sidelining him. The delicate part is that Perry get treated with respect INTERNALLY, stuff we don't see. Where Perry knows he's on the outs, where Rose knows he's on the outs. Where Perry knows Rose knows (I suppose) but he is given enough to do and treated with some respect and dignity. Both to make the year go well, and also so Perry doesn't start trashing the new regime back channel.

I don't know. The Knicks could be dumb enough to let the lame duck guy draft again like with Phil, but there's also the case that Berman seeded that idea to create another story later on about "Knicks dysfunction". And with Dolan around, Knicks dysfunction is real, but I just don't trust Berman and I laid out another pretty plausible scenario.

It's not wholly "Perry's draft". Perry's team drafted Knox, which sucked, but also got Mitch and picked up Trier UDFA. They moved up a few spots for Iggy, but obviously verdict is out on that, other than I think it was solid to pick up a guy I think is clearly a bench contributor and they spent some $ to capitalize on the luck that the guy had dropped maybe 5-8 slots in the draft and ensured the luck didn't evaporate one slot before them. So Perry will get to participate and suggest, but I think it's Perrin/Zannin who have the last word with Rose.

Yes, I wish they would have let Perry go and got a new GM in.

We didn't hire Perrin and Kline for Scott Perry to be the ultimate decision maker

No bet is too small to be hedged when it comes to Dolan's Knicks

He let Grunwald run the draft and trade for Bargnani, then fired him.... a few days later.

He let Phil run the draft then fired him. He then lets Mills sign THJ and Baker before hiring Scott Perry to be the GM....a few days later.

He will let Scott Perry to run the draft and free agency. Then fire him...a few days later.

That's how it works. That's how it's always worked.

Well, maybe. Possibly. I'll wait a year or so before I just go there.