Deni Avdija - 2020 draft

[doordoor123]

I think the big issue with international prospects is that a lot of them are straight-line drivers. They often don't develop their handle enough to drive differently and it limits their upside. Most of the time when international prospects are successful it has nothing to do with their handle. They're often great passers or have great footwork and pace. They're big, can shoot the ball and some are athletic. But the reason we don't see many international All-Stars that aren't freaks of nature (Like Jokic's vision or Siakam's body-type) is because of the handle. Like when was the last time we saw a international Kemba Walker-type of guard enter the league? There are athletic players internationally, but that handle is just another level compared to those players. If Rubio was super athletic he might have been one of those players because he's one of those guys that has that handle, but he more likely would have been a Mike Conley type of player with great passing. And I think that has a lot to do with the culture here. It's the same reason there aren't a lot of white guys in general that can do that. Street-ball makes a cultural difference when developing skills, particularly with handling the ball. Ja Morant wouldn't have the handle he has without street-ball, etc.

[clyde21]

^that's b/c euro basketball never emphasizes just one guy pounding the rock and dribbling for 20 seconds, players just aren't developed that way, I think Luka was the only guy I've ever really seen do that at that level

but they'll know how to set a mean screen at 18

[Klomp]

Right or wrong, there seems to be a hesitation when looking at prospects from countries where there is not a rich heritage of players going to the NBA. I wonder sometimes if that could be the case for Avdija when seeing opinions from skeptics. But he actually has a Serbian/Yugoslavian background, as his father played pro basketball for Yugoslavia in the 1980s, even playing on the national team at the 1982 FIBA World Championship.

Whats interesting is the 2013 draft, when there was a bunch of good draft picks that slid down because they were international prospects. International prospects have such weird picks because when they're really good they get underrated and when they're just okay they get overrated. NBA teams have a bias when it comes to drafting college players versus international players. If Porzingis was in college there would have been a debate between him and Karl-Anthony Towns going 1 overall. Luka Doncic was so influential in that respect with the infamous trade between him and Young. It changed the way we think about international prospects. There is a bias against international prospects, but sometimes its warranted. Like Geogios Papagiannis should have no way been a lottery pick. Guershon Yabusele shouldn't have been as high as he was, etc. Then there are a lot of guys who over-promise. Like Mario Hezonja, Dario Saric, Cedi Osman, Juancho Hernangomez, Dzanan Musa. These aren't bad players, but they were highly touted and became just average players. This is a really interesting topic.

So true! I vividly remember leading up to and after the 2014 NBA Draft when talking about lottery-level guards, the late Flip Saunders essentially said that the international hype machine was the only reason Dante Exum was rated so highly and also that college prospects like Zach LaVine get extra scrutinized by the public. Now he ended up being right about that 1-to-1, but he was wrong the previous season when he could've come out of the draft with Giannis Antetokounmpo and Rudy Gobert rather than Shabazz Muhammad and Gorgui Dieng. I never really forgave him for that one.

[doordoor123]

Right or wrong, there seems to be a hesitation when looking at prospects from countries where there is not a rich heritage of players going to the NBA. I wonder sometimes if that could be the case for Avdija when seeing opinions from skeptics. But he actually has a Serbian/Yugoslavian background, as his father played pro basketball for Yugoslavia in the 1980s, even playing on the national team at the 1982 FIBA World Championship.

Whats interesting is the 2013 draft, when there was a bunch of good draft picks that slid down because they were international prospects. International prospects have such weird picks because when they're really good they get underrated and when they're just okay they get overrated. NBA teams have a bias when it comes to drafting college players versus international players. If Porzingis was in college there would have been a debate between him and Karl-Anthony Towns going 1 overall. Luka Doncic was so influential in that respect with the infamous trade between him and Young. It changed the way we think about international prospects. There is a bias against international prospects, but sometimes its warranted. Like Geogios Papagiannis should have no way been a lottery pick. Guershon Yabusele shouldn't have been as high as he was, etc. Then there are a lot of guys who over-promise. Like Mario Hezonja, Dario Saric, Cedi Osman, Juancho Hernangomez, Dzanan Musa. These aren't bad players, but they were highly touted and became just average players. This is a really interesting topic.

So true! I vividly remember leading up to and after the 2014 NBA Draft when talking about lottery-level guards, the late Flip Saunders essentially said that the international hype machine was the only reason Dante Exum was rated so highly and also that college prospects like Zach LaVine get extra scrutinized by the public. Now he ended up being right about that 1-to-1, but he was wrong the previous season when he could've come out of the draft with Giannis Antetokounmpo and Rudy Gobert rather than Shabazz Muhammad and Gorgui Dieng. I never really forgave him for that one.

There are certain drafts that change the landscape of how we view drafts and I think 2013 was a big one.

[Leslie Forman]

Right or wrong, there seems to be a hesitation when looking at prospects from countries where there is not a rich heritage of players going to the NBA.

Is there really any proof of this? We're talking about a league that drafted a Chinese guy #1. This very thread is about an Israeli projected to go top-5 even though just a few years ago, a guy from his very club also went top-5…and is looking like a total bust.

So true!

Just look at mark gasol, winning 2006 gold medal with the Spanish national team + plenty of playing time with girona, (33.4 mpg),
winning the ACB Most Valuable Player Award!

He avarged 16.2 ppg and 8.3 rebounds in the spanish league before entering the draft.

No, that was after he was drafted. Back then he was just the fat, slow brother of an NBA star who was already 22 and wasn't even coming over. He wouldn't have been picked any higher if he was a 4-year college guy and his name was something like, oh, I don't know, Aaron Gray.

[doordoor123]

Right or wrong, there seems to be a hesitation when looking at prospects from countries where there is not a rich heritage of players going to the NBA.

Is there really any proof of this? We're talking about a league that drafted a Chinese guy #1. This very thread is about an Israeli projected to go top-5 even though just a few years ago, a guy from his very club also went top-5…and is looking like a total bust.

So true!

Just look at mark gasol, winning 2006 gold medal with the Spanish national team + plenty of playing time with girona, (33.4 mpg),
winning the ACB Most Valuable Player Award!

He avarged 16.2 ppg and 8.3 rebounds in the spanish league before entering the draft.

No, that was after he was drafted. Back then he was just the fat, slow brother of an NBA star who was already 22 and wasn't even coming over. He wouldn't have been picked any higher if he was a 4-year college guy and his name was something like, oh, I don't know, Aaron Gray.

I think he means anomalies aside. Ming was an anomaly. The NBA was also looking to tap into the Chinese market at the time and it was a perfect pairing. And Maccabi has been one of the biggest teams in Europe for years. Their first European Cup championship was in 1977. They have 6 Euroleague Cup championships. So they've been a big team in Europe for a long time. They've had sub-par prospects as long as I can remember and they've had a bunch of players who played for them that made it to the NBA, like PJ Tucker and Joe Ingles.

[Mirotic12]

Is there really any proof of this? We're talking about a league that drafted a Chinese guy #1. This very thread is about an Israeli projected to go top-5 even though just a few years ago, a guy from his very club also went top-5…and is looking like a total bust.

Yes there is. It's very obvious. There was no end to the talk by fans, sports media, and also NBA personnel about how Doncic didn't play in NCAA so how could anyone know if his game was for real or not. Some even went so far as to say any top NCAA prospect would have been the best player in Europe.

The simple fact that Doncic was not a universal choice for the top draft pick is proof that there is a very strong bias against foreign players, or at least in particular, against players from Europe. Interestingly enough, the same bias does not seem to be placed against players from places like Canada, Australia, Latin America, and Africa.

But every time there is talk of a player from Europe or Asia (in those few cases), immediately all of the "but they didn't play in NCAA" BS starts. I mean seriously, even like a a year and a half after Doncic was drafted, US sports media regularly had discussions like, "who won the trade between Doncic and Young?" It would actually be funny, if it wasn't so absurd.

[Mirotic12]

I think he means anomalies aside. Ming was an anomaly. The NBA was also looking to tap into the Chinese market at the time and it was a perfect pairing. And Maccabi has been one of the biggest teams in Europe for years. Their first European Cup championship was in 1977. They have 6 Euroleague Cup championships. So they've been a big team in Europe for a long time. They've had sub-par prospects as long as I can remember and they've had a bunch of players who played for them that made it to the NBA, like PJ Tucker and Joe Ingles.

Actually, Maccabi only has 5 EuroLeague championships. They count that SuproLeague title as one, but it's actually 5. 5 in the EuroLeague and 1 in the FIBA SuproLeague.

A good analogy would be like an NBA team counting its ABA championships as NBA titles.

[doordoor123]

Is there really any proof of this? We're talking about a league that drafted a Chinese guy #1. This very thread is about an Israeli projected to go top-5 even though just a few years ago, a guy from his very club also went top-5…and is looking like a total bust.

Yes there is. It's very obvious. There was no end to the talk by fans, sports media, and also NBA personnel about how Doncic didn't play in NCAA so how could anyone know if his game was for real or not. Some even went so far as to say any top NCAA prospect would have been the best player in Europe.

The simple fact that Doncic was not a universal choice for the top draft pick is proof that there is a very strong bias against foreign players, or at least in particular, against players from Europe. Interestingly enough, the same bias does not seem to be placed against players from places like Canada, Australia, Latin America, and Africa.

But every time there is talk of a player from Europe or Asia (in those few cases), immediately all of the "but they didn't play in NCAA" BS starts. I mean seriously, even like a a year and a half after Doncic was drafted, US sports media regularly had discussions like, "who won the trade between Doncic and Young?" It would actually be funny, if it wasn't so absurd.

Doncic was amazingly good, yes, but what about players like Saric? and Osman? Both were great in Europe and just kind of average in the NBA. Sometimes really good players in Europe don't work the same way in the NBA. So while yes, the NBA is biased in terms of college players, it isnt always wrong to be biased. Hezonja went really high, but should he have been? NBA teams just tend to draft better with college players. A lot of international players can be hit or miss. Some might not even want to come over. Guershon Yabusele isnt an NBA player yet he wen't 16th overall. There are legit reason to be biased, but at the same time you could regret not getting a Nikola Jokic or Giannis Antetokounmpo. I think it goes beyond how good a player can be, its the mentality of a player and their work ethic.

[Thedragonking]

Is there really any proof of this? We're talking about a league that drafted a Chinese guy #1. This very thread is about an Israeli projected to go top-5 even though just a few years ago, a guy from his very club also went top-5…and is looking like a total bust.

Yes there is. It's very obvious. There was no end to the talk by fans, sports media, and also NBA personnel about how Doncic didn't play in NCAA so how could anyone know if his game was for real or not. Some even went so far as to say any top NCAA prospect would have been the best player in Europe.

The simple fact that Doncic was not a universal choice for the top draft pick is proof that there is a very strong bias against foreign players, or at least in particular, against players from Europe. Interestingly enough, the same bias does not seem to be placed against players from places like Canada, Australia, Latin America, and Africa.

But every time there is talk of a player from Europe or Asia (in those few cases), immediately all of the "but they didn't play in NCAA" BS starts. I mean seriously, even like a a year and a half after Doncic was drafted, US sports media regularly had discussions like, "who won the trade between Doncic and Young?" It would actually be funny, if it wasn't so absurd.

Doncic was amazingly good, yes, but what about players like Saric? and Osman? Both were great in Europe and just kind of average in the NBA. Sometimes really good players in Europe don't work the same way in the NBA. So while yes, the NBA is biased in terms of college players, it isnt always wrong to be biased. Hezonja went really high, but should he have been? NBA teams just tend to draft better with college players. A lot of international players can be hit or miss. Some might not even want to come over. Guershon Yabusele isnt an NBA player yet he wen't 16th overall. There are legit reason to be biased, but at the same time you could regret not getting a Nikola Jokic or Giannis Antetokounmpo. I think it goes beyond how good a player can be, its the mentality of a player and their work ethic.

A very strong mentality and a great work ethic, makes me believe in Deni avdija. I think that he will do everything he can and eventually reach his potential!

[Leslie Forman]

Yes there is. It's very obvious. There was no end to the talk by fans, sports media, and also NBA personnel about how Doncic didn't play in NCAA so how could anyone know if his game was for real or not. Some even went so far as to say any top NCAA prospect would have been the best player in Europe.

I know, right? Bargnani. Exum. Kanter. Bender. Vesely. Hezonja. Biyombo. Yi. Tskitishvili. Man, it's such a shame that not playing in college really killed the draft stock of these incredible players. I mean, look at all those dumb ass teams who passed up Darko! Who passes up an amazing talent like that for some guy just because he won some stupid college tournament? God, what morons.

You're so right. The NBA really has an awful bias for NCAA players. There's just suuuuch an incredible history of amazing European wings dominating the NBA. Especially the unathletic ones. Man there's just so many of them destroying the league right now.

A great wing player who was the NCAA player of the year would never drop to #3, especially behind some mediocre injury plagued big man. No chance. I don't remember that ever happening, no sir. No way. That's crazy.

How do we fix this? Maybe we need more foreign GMs instead of all these dumb Americans. I don't know who though. Maybe a Serbian who never went to college and had a long, successful NBA career. Yeah. That'll fix things.

[Klomp]

This dunk blows my mind every time I watch it. That's his off-hand. Not many players pull that kind of dunk off. And it wasn't his only lefthanded dunk of the season.

Watch on YouTube

[getrichordie]

[pad300]

GROD, you've posted these shot charts for both Avdija and Poku so far. A couple of questions
1) What games? Are these just their euroleague games, all games, domestic league?
2) What is the source?
3) Do they have these for Bolmaro and N'Doye?

[getrichordie]

GROD, you've posted these shot charts for both Avdija and Poku so far. A couple of questions
1) What games? Are these just their euroleague games, all games, domestic league?
2) What is the source?
3) Do they have these for Bolmaro and N'Doye?

I believe it's from this past season.

I'll look for Bolmaro and N'Doye tonight.

[Mirotic12]

Doncic was amazingly good, yes, but what about players like Saric? and Osman? Both were great in Europe and just kind of average in the NBA. Sometimes really good players in Europe don't work the same way in the NBA. So while yes, the NBA is biased in terms of college players, it isnt always wrong to be biased. Hezonja went really high, but should he have been? NBA teams just tend to draft better with college players. A lot of international players can be hit or miss. Some might not even want to come over. Guershon Yabusele isnt an NBA player yet he wen't 16th overall. There are legit reason to be biased, but at the same time you could regret not getting a Nikola Jokic or Giannis Antetokounmpo. I think it goes beyond how good a player can be, its the mentality of a player and their work ethic.

Neither Saric nor Osman was ever great in Europe. Especially Osman was never even remotely close to that level. Saric was a good (not even very good) player on offense, with bad defense, for an average EuroLeague team. Far from being great.

Osman was a hustle and energy role player for an average EuroLeague team. He was not even at the level of good, let alone great. He's actually better in the NBA than he was in EuroLeague.

[getrichordie]

...

Bolmaro:

Spoiler:

N'Doye:

Spoiler:

[doordoor123]

Doncic was amazingly good, yes, but what about players like Saric? and Osman? Both were great in Europe and just kind of average in the NBA. Sometimes really good players in Europe don't work the same way in the NBA. So while yes, the NBA is biased in terms of college players, it isnt always wrong to be biased. Hezonja went really high, but should he have been? NBA teams just tend to draft better with college players. A lot of international players can be hit or miss. Some might not even want to come over. Guershon Yabusele isnt an NBA player yet he wen't 16th overall. There are legit reason to be biased, but at the same time you could regret not getting a Nikola Jokic or Giannis Antetokounmpo. I think it goes beyond how good a player can be, its the mentality of a player and their work ethic.

Neither Saric nor Osman was ever great in Europe. Especially Osman was never even remotely close to that level. Saric was a good (not even very good) player on offense, with bad defense, for an average EuroLeague team. Far from being great.

Osman was a hustle and energy role player for an average EuroLeague team. He was not even at the level of good, let alone great. He's actually better in the NBA than he was in EuroLeague.

Yeah, but Osman showed a lot of promise at the time. Saric was pretty darn good. He was playing much different than he is now though. He had the ball in his hands a lot more and pushed it up the floor. He was getting a lot of hype as a passer. He's a completely different player now.

[Mirotic12]

Yeah, but Osman showed a lot of promise at the time. Saric was pretty darn good. He was playing much different than he is now though. He had the ball in his hands a lot more and pushed it up the floor. He was getting a lot of hype as a passer. He's a completely different player now.

In youth high school age tournaments, like under-16, under-18, and under-19 tournaments. Saric never did any of that in the EuroLeague, where he played the same exact role on offense that he plays in the NBA. Saric didn't run an offense in EuroLeague. He was a face up power forward and that was it. He only did that against teenagers in youth competitions. He's actually pretty much the same exact type of player in the NBA as he was in EuroLeague. Same type of player, and also the same level of player in both leagues.

Osman is better in the NBA, where his offense is better, because he can get more scoring chances on the fast break. His offense is limited, so he needs those increased fast break chances he gets in the NBA. Players of Osman's level come through Europe all the time. There are dozens of guys better than him in Europe.

[No-Man]

It was super obvious that Saric was never going to be a creator at the next level, even when he was shining and playing great at youth level tournaments for Croatia, he was also uber developed physically, super strong

Saric would've bee a top5-10 euroleague player had he stayed in the league probably, and a candidate for EL MVP at some point probably too, but he is just a big with some perimeter skills, he was never a perimeter player (Croatia actually played him a ton at Center, he was a great rebounder)

wouldn't say there are dozens of guys better than Osman currently in Europe, and obviously not dozens that are 6'8 in shoes, like there are maybe 2-3 guys, tops, the level of wings in EuroLeague is extremely poor, best player overall is prob still Rudy Fernandez who is old and cranky, we will see how Clyburn returns