Celtics General Thread 2019-20, "Re-Start"

[Captain_Caveman]

The general population of this board is made up of homers. I'm the first to jump on that train. But even I can't support that opinion man. Brown has top 20-25 potential. If Tatum can break out eventually into that top 10 player, and a team of more supportive players are built around him, they have a chance. Hayward would have to take a pay cut. And we need a bit of luck. But I don't think we are THAT far off. Do I think this roster as is can win a title in a few years? No.

But I'm imagining a team built around Tatum and Jaylen looks different.

If we are wrong about Tatum reaching top 10/all nba status, and Jaylen becoming a perinnial all-star, then okay. Too early in their timelines to make any major prediction imo. But I do see where you are coming from. This current teams talent level outside of Tatum is a bit overvalued.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

I'm not going to agree, but back to the original point, why do people think we can afford a better bench with the money we have slated to our top 4? Or for that matter, after the cap acrobatics we had to go through to be able to offer Kemba a max? I feel like those things are related somehow.

Back to the other original point, if our core is so great, why the big need for bench scoring from minimum-salary European league retreads like Wanamaker? Don't we have four 20ppg scorer types?

It’s not necessarily that they need the bench scoring. They have the #4 offense in the league so that’s not the issue. It’s having shooting off the bench to pose a threat to the defense. There is currently no scoring or shooting threat coming off the bench. It’s not like they need some 10+ PPG scorer as their 8th man but they do need a guy who can provide some offense.

Smart is an elite 6th man. Kanter is a solid backup big. The issue is playing Wanamaker who shouldn’t even be in this league. I think they can develop a nice bench through the draft which also is good for cap management. At #14 this year a guy like Saddiq Bey, Tyrese Maxey, Aaron Nesmith are already upgrades in the rotation to be a scoring threats.

Next year’s rotation could be: Smart, Kanter, Romeo, #14, Timelord, Grant. That’s 11 deep and is fine as a bench in my opinion, assuming our pick at #14 is a guy who can score like I mentioned above. And in games vs playoff teams that rotation shrinks to 8-9 as well so it’ll depend on the development of Romeo, Timelord, Grant, and our draft pick this year.

There is zero reason that you can't stagger four 20ppg caliber players to have at least 1-2 of them on the floor at any given moment. At worst, it is one playing alongside both Smart and Kanter against other backups for small stretches. Oh... except you can't use Jaylen like that because he can't create for others or even himself as a primary option.

[BostonCouchGM]

Not so sure about that. Celtics have arguably the best top 4 in the league. Kemba is an all-star and still one of the top point guards in the league when healthy. Tatum is a top 15 player who averaged 27/6/3 over the last 40 games of the year, playing like a borderline top 10 guy. Brown very well could be an all-star. Hayward gives you 17/6/4 on 50/39/84.

The problem is they have a whopping zero guys off the bench that are scoring and shooting threats. Just look at our top 9 guys. Smart is a great 6th man. Kanter is a solid backup big. Our top 7 is very good.

Then you have Wanamaker as 8th man who shouldn't even be in this league. There's a reason he spent 8 years in Europe. Semi as 9th man is a good defender and below average offensively.

Teams just aren't scared of anyone off the bench. That's the issue.

You'd take our top 4 over Kawhi/PG13? AD/LeBron? Curry/Klay/Dray? Giannis/3 guys from the YMCA?

How about no? How about hell **** no?

I didn't say that...

I said the Celtics arguably have the best top 4 in the league. I would put them behind LAC for the TOP 4. Not just having the top two players lol. By top 4 I mean best players from 1-4. Lakers have the best duo in the league for example but Kuzma and Green as their 3rd and 4th best players for example is laughable, hence why the Clippers have a better top 4 than the Lakers...

Celtics:
Tatum - 23/7/3 on 45/40/81
Kemba - 21/4/5 on 43/38/86
Brown - 21/6/2 on 49/38/73
Hayward - 17/6/4 on 50/39/86

Bucks:
Giannis - 30/14/6 on 55/31/63
Middleton - 21/6/4 on 49/41/91
Bledsoe - 15/4/5 on 48/35/81
Lopez - 11/5/1 on 43/29/82

Lakers
LeBron - 25/8/10 on 50/35/70
AD - 27/9/3 on 51/34/85
Kuzma - 12/5/1 on 43/31/74
Danny Green? - 8/3/1 on 41/37/70

Clippers
Kawhi - 27/7/5 on 47/37/89
PG - 21/6/4 on 44/41/88
Lou - 19/3/6 on 41/36/86
Trezz - 19/7/2 on 58/0/66

Raptors
Siakam - 23/7/3 on 46/36/81
Lowry - 20/5/7 on 42/36/86
FVV - 18/4/6 on 41/40/86
Powell - 16/3/2 on 49/39/84

several more belong with this above group and more will be added as young teams develop and keep drafting in the lottery:

Heat
Butler
Bam
Herro
Robinson
*loads of cap room

Warriors
Steph
Klay
Wiggins
Green
*have a top 2 pick or trade for a veteran

Nuggets
Jokic
Murray
MPJ
Bol

Pelicans
Ingram
Zion
Holiday
Ball

Nets
KD
Kyrie
LeVert
Jordan/Allen

Pacers
Oladipo
Sabonis
Brogdon
Warren

Thunder
Paul
SGA
Adams
Bazley

Trailblazers
Lillard
McCollum
Nurkic
Simons

Wizards
Wall
Beal
Hachimura
Bonga
*lottery pick

and there are young teams with upside like:

Bulls
LaVine
Markkanen
White
Porter
*cap room and lottery pick

Suns
Booker
Ayton
Rubio
Bridges
*cap room and lottery pick

Kings
Fox
Bagley
Hield
Barnes
*lottery pick

Grizzlies
Morant
JJJ
Valenciunas
Clarke

Hawks
Trae
Collins
Huerter
Reddish
*top 5 pick
*most cap space in the league
*decent young bench

Hornets
Bridges
Rozier
Washington
Graham
*lottery pick and cap space

Cavaliers
Love
Drummond
Garland
Sexton
*top 3 pick (Toppin???) plus decent role players

Pistons
Blake
Rose
Sekou
Kennard
*top five pick, loads of cap space

I feel like we'll be running our current team back. I don't see too much more upside for any of our top 4. We have a disastrous bench of low floor low ceiling scrubs. We're maxed out cap wise. We aren't picking high in an average draft and it doesn't matter because Danny is drafting anyway. What is our path to getting better?

Here's where I rank our players and where I feel their upside is. I'm only doing the top four because they're the only ones that matter

Tatum
18>12
Hayward
30>28
Kemba
31>30
Brown
45>35

we not only don't have the high end talent to compete but we also don't have the quality bench that could allow us to play at a feverish pace all game full of players with high upside who could challenge for starting jobs in the future. I'm not kidding, I'm watching with zero expectations because I know it's hopeless. This feels like early in Paul's career where we were pretenders with no chance at a championship in sight. We know how that ended up. But there's no former teammate in a FO that will bail Danny out and gift him an MVP candidate this time.

[chrisab123]

The Heat are like the Lakers. If they have tons of cap room they'll get an elite player if they're on the market. So they'll always be in the mix. Not a lot of people would turn down teaming with Bam and Butler if they can be that Alpha.

That Grizzlies core though could be scary if things go right for them.

I do think the high end talent problem is being solved internally. Tatum will be a number 1 option. Its just a question of if its this year or next. At some point they do need to swing a trade and send picks out for an established vet. I think a Horace Grant type that played on a title team would be perfect.

[bucknersrevenge]

Its just not man, its not even close. This is one of the worst takes I've seen on this board in a while. His contract literally can't be more than 25% of the cap, and even under that scenario there are numerous GM's who would make that offer to a 23 year old coming off a 20 ppg season at well above average efficiency and defensive play.

And his contract likely wont we 25% of the cap. Right now its looking like next season will likely feature a cap freeze at 109 million (with a larger percentage held in escrow to compensate for potential loses). Jaylen is slated to make 22.8 million next year which is 21% of the cap.

Jaylen might not even be a top 4 player on the Warriors. If they get lucky in the lottery, not even top 5. Bringing an ordinary guy like Jaylen into the deep playoffs is like bringing a knife to a gun fight.

Brown would absolutely be a top 4 player on the Warriors. Call me a homer all you want but I’m taking a 23 yr old averaging 20/6/2 on 49% FG and 38% 3PT over Wiggins and over this iteration of Draymond in 2020. And please don’t tell me a top pick in this year’s draft is better than Brown lol. Might be the most ludicrous thing I’ve read.

Brown has also been really good in the playoffs as well so not sure where you’re getting that from.

Amongst 20 PPG scorers this season, Brown ranks:

- 3rd lowest time of possession
- 2nd lowest amount of touches
- Highest EFG% for guards
- 2nd in FG% & 2P% for guards
- Lowest USG%
- 4th in Pts/Touch
- 2nd in transition FG% & EFG%

These are excellent stats here. Definitely speaks to how efficient Brown has become this year. A question though we have to ask is, are these numbers a function of the offense or his skill? If he had a higher Usg, how much better would the other numbers be? Would he still be efficient? Is he capable of reaching another level with more Usg?

[bucknersrevenge]

I'm not going to agree, but back to the original point, why do people think we can afford a better bench with the money we have slated to our top 4? Or for that matter, after the cap acrobatics we had to go through to be able to offer Kemba a max? I feel like those things are related somehow.

Back to the other original point, if our core is so great, why the big need for bench scoring from minimum-salary European league retreads like Wanamaker? Don't we have four 20ppg scorer types?

It’s not necessarily that they need the bench scoring. They have the #4 offense in the league so that’s not the issue. It’s having shooting off the bench to pose a threat to the defense. There is currently no scoring or shooting threat coming off the bench. It’s not like they need some 10+ PPG scorer as their 8th man but they do need a guy who can provide some offense.

Smart is an elite 6th man. Kanter is a solid backup big. The issue is playing Wanamaker who shouldn’t even be in this league. I think they can develop a nice bench through the draft which also is good for cap management. At #14 this year a guy like Saddiq Bey, Tyrese Maxey, Aaron Nesmith are already upgrades in the rotation to be a scoring threats.

Next year’s rotation could be: Smart, Kanter, Romeo, #14, Timelord, Grant. That’s 11 deep and is fine as a bench in my opinion, assuming our pick at #14 is a guy who can score like I mentioned above. And in games vs playoff teams that rotation shrinks to 8-9 as well so it’ll depend on the development of Romeo, Timelord, Grant, and our draft pick this year.

There is zero reason that you can't stagger four 20ppg caliber players to have at least 1-2 of them on the floor at any given moment. At worst, it is one playing alongside both Smart and Kanter against other backups for small stretches. Oh... except you can't use Jaylen like that because he can't create for others or even himself as a primary option.

I guess that's where Smart comes in. I think Jaylen has been better this season in terms of creating space for his own shot although he's still kinda abysmal at getting others involved. Kemba I think is similar in this fashion, though maybe slightly better at getting others shots. Marcus picks up the slack which is why when you stagger the 4 players 2x2, you never make Kemba and Jaylen the 2 on the court. It's always one of those guys with one of Tatum and Hayward with Smart.

[MagicBagley18]

I think a lot of you guys have it backwards. The problem isn't our bench or role players. The problem is a lack of elite talent. Starting next season, we have like $102m+ sunk into our top 4 players. Could be $120m the year after that. With four 20ppg scorers, plus another 20ppg from Smart/Kanter, scoring should never be a problem for this team. Yeah, we are young, but more than that, we lack elite talent.

Kemba and Hayward are completely mediocre for what we pay them, and Jaylen is about to be. Every non-Celtics fan in the world is perfectly aware of this, so why aren't we? For his part, Tatum is top 15 but not top 10, and that just isn't good enough in a league where a dollar is worth more than five quarters.

Unless Tatum makes a Giannis-level leap, this core won't get it done. No sense blaming our role players for that.

I agree with this mostly, only caveat being I do think tatum is a top 10 player as soon as next season perhaps. It’s clear that anything in terms of legitimate winning starts with just how much further Tatum does make that leap. I don’t think he’s top 5 good but I do think- like I stated he’s top 10 good, which means the plan is to put another top 10 level around him but it starts with getting 1 of those players first and I feel we did in tatum.

we have a franchise player and now we hope that either brown surprises us and becomes way better than You or i think he ever will and him and Tatum can lead us to the promise land or in the next 18 months we sell high on brown if that 2nd top 10 level player shakes loose to pair him with Tatum.

Hayward and kemba love them, hate them, whatever you choose but they are essentially max paid stop gap players. We can be an ECF team, we can have successful-ish seasons with them but there will be no banner 18 without an mvp level top end talent but I think getting 1 in tatum who appears to have cache amongst his peers is still a good foot in the door all things considered.

[keevsnick1]

I think you miss my point. When you give that kind of money to the likes of Kemba, Hayward, and Jaylen, you cannot win a title, and you certainly can't have a bench. If you want to hold up stats and compare them to other non-elite players on other non-elite teams, that's great. But that's what Kings fans do.

Jaylen might not even be a top 4 player on the Warriors. If they get lucky in the lottery, not even top 5. Bringing an ordinary guy like Jaylen into the deep playoffs is like bringing a knife to a gun fight. I don't know what the path is to contention from here, but it sure as hell isn't in giving contracts like that out.

I get why we had to do it, but you guys are being mad homers on this. If Jaylen didn't play for us, you wouldn't even know his name.

Again man, Jaylen is not the problem on that list. As for the bolded, well if you dont like giving out value contracts then thank god you arent a gm. I mean going into next year you could easily trade Jaylen for positive value to about a dozen teams that need wing play, by definition then it isnt a bad contract. He's getting paid what is essentially third banana money for a player on a good team. I mean his 22.8 million would have been the fourth highest salary on last years raptors for example behind Lowry, Kawhi, Gasol and just ahead of Ibaka.

Try this exercise. What competing team this year would he not at least arguably be at least the third best player on right now? The answer is: pretty much none.

And thats before we factor in that again he's still likely to improve at least modestly before his prime. He may end up a legit #2 on a title team type guy by his prime.

In short man your analysis on this is just wrong, your problem isnt with Jaylen's contract. Its a perfect reasonable contract you can win with and thats has some considerable upside. Having a value contract like that is, in fact, of considerable advantage when trying to build a champion. Your problem is that the Celtics dont have a true 1A, top 10 level player on the roster. If we did Jaylen would slot in nicely behind that guy as a reasonably paid support piece.

You are arguing for value in a vacuum. I am arguing for a path to true contention. Couldn't care less if our guys are "worth the money" relative to other players in the league. I'm sure you could have made the same case for Andy Dalton as a Bengals quarterback, but the bottom line is that you don't win titles paying average money to average QBs like Andy Dalton. So what's the point? No, really. What's the point?

Ainge and the BBP aren't confused about how this works. In the NBA, you need a legit MVP candidate plus another top 10-15 guy, or two other All-Stars. If you have that, you are a contender and your bench is an afterthought. And if you don't have that, you are not a contender and your bench is still an afterthought.

I didn't mind the Hayward contract at the time because I saw how it fit holistically into our build plan. We had a legit shot at AD. Overpaying Hayward just a matter of lux tax if it facilitated that. Now? Jaylen's and Kemba's contracts not facilitating anything but being 5th place for the next five years. There's no trades to make, and no path to get to true contention. At the same time our young guys are getting older, so are our old guys. We are entirely dependent on Tatum making an MVP leap that is highly unlikely.

The idea that you win titles by having the best 3rd or 4th best player is something I reject out of hand. You win titles because your 1st and 2nd best players are better. But to answer your question, I think the Warriors and Clippers both have 3 guys better than Jaylen. Jazz and Rockets comparable. Raptors, Nuggets, and Heat all have better functional depth with better salary structures. Lakers and Bucks not far off, with far better talent at the top of the lineup.

Jaylen is no future #2 on a title team. And positive trade value? How so? Name one realistic scenario where we get a better player for Jaylen and spare parts. At best, we could make a lateral move. At best. There is no one on the team with positive trade value, which is kind of the problem.

Again I guarantee there are numerous teams who come this off season would gladly take Jaylen into cap space and give you back good draft pick(s). That's positive value.

Value to relative to player is critically important to building a contender, because a guy on a value contract is always trad-able for stuff you can use if you decide you don't want him. Jaylen has the benefit of both being on a value contract, playing a valuable position AND having upside left to explore. That's a player 9/10 of the league would want.

You say you need a MVP and another all nab or two all stars. Jaylen was getting all star buzz this season, it would shock absolutely no one if he made it next year.

I don't think we're ever going to agree on this, mostly because your evaluation of what Jaylen is right now is so far out of wack which with the median opinion on him that it makes this argument functionally impossible to have. I think Jaylen MIGHT be able to be the 2nd best player on a champion, in time. He's certainly on a similar trajectory to players like Butler, George, ect who fit that bill.

Here's a quote from Sam Vecenie's rookie scale rankings on the Athletic where he's listed under "multi time all star" referring to their ceiling.

"I don’t know that Brown has gotten enough respect in the Most Improved Player of the Year discussion. I don’t think he’d be my pick, but he deserves a place in it. The level to which he took a leap this year is staggering and he’s now a very real max player after I thought the extension the Celtics handed him early in the season was a bit questionable."

Or from an Eastern Conference executive quoted by Keith Smith:

“We had an idea of throwing him a max offer sheet as a restricted free agent, if we could make the cap space happen. If nothing else, Boston would have had to match it. Danny (Ainge) did good to get him for less than the max."

[themoneyteam2]

I'm not going to agree, but back to the original point, why do people think we can afford a better bench with the money we have slated to our top 4? Or for that matter, after the cap acrobatics we had to go through to be able to offer Kemba a max? I feel like those things are related somehow.

Back to the other original point, if our core is so great, why the big need for bench scoring from minimum-salary European league retreads like Wanamaker? Don't we have four 20ppg scorer types?

It’s not necessarily that they need the bench scoring. They have the #4 offense in the league so that’s not the issue. It’s having shooting off the bench to pose a threat to the defense. There is currently no scoring or shooting threat coming off the bench. It’s not like they need some 10+ PPG scorer as their 8th man but they do need a guy who can provide some offense.

Smart is an elite 6th man. Kanter is a solid backup big. The issue is playing Wanamaker who shouldn’t even be in this league. I think they can develop a nice bench through the draft which also is good for cap management. At #14 this year a guy like Saddiq Bey, Tyrese Maxey, Aaron Nesmith are already upgrades in the rotation to be a scoring threats.

Next year’s rotation could be: Smart, Kanter, Romeo, #14, Timelord, Grant. That’s 11 deep and is fine as a bench in my opinion, assuming our pick at #14 is a guy who can score like I mentioned above. And in games vs playoff teams that rotation shrinks to 8-9 as well so it’ll depend on the development of Romeo, Timelord, Grant, and our draft pick this year.

There is zero reason that you can't stagger four 20ppg caliber players to have at least 1-2 of them on the floor at any given moment. At worst, it is one playing alongside both Smart and Kanter against other backups for small stretches. Oh... except you can't use Jaylen like that because he can't create for others or even himself as a primary option.

When everyone is healthy they do stagger having 1-2 of their top 4 guys on the court at all times...

Which is exactly why I said they don't need some 10+ PPG scorer as their 8th man but just simply need bench players who are capable of making open threes and being shooting threats.

It's clear you're not a Jaylen Brown fan at all which is fine. When you say he'd be the 4th best player on the current Warriors team and that if they get a top pick in this draft he'd be the 5th best player, I just can't take you serious I'm sorry. In no world is any top 3 pick in this draft better than Jaylen Brown.

[ConstableGeneva]

Jaylen might not even be a top 4 player on the Warriors. If they get lucky in the lottery, not even top 5. Bringing an ordinary guy like Jaylen into the deep playoffs is like bringing a knife to a gun fight.

Brown would absolutely be a top 4 player on the Warriors. Call me a homer all you want but I’m taking a 23 yr old averaging 20/6/2 on 49% FG and 38% 3PT over Wiggins and over this iteration of Draymond in 2020. And please don’t tell me a top pick in this year’s draft is better than Brown lol. Might be the most ludicrous thing I’ve read.

Brown has also been really good in the playoffs as well so not sure where you’re getting that from.

Amongst 20 PPG scorers this season, Brown ranks:

- 3rd lowest time of possession
- 2nd lowest amount of touches
- Highest EFG% for guards
- 2nd in FG% & 2P% for guards
- Lowest USG%
- 4th in Pts/Touch
- 2nd in transition FG% & EFG%

These are excellent stats here. Definitely speaks to how efficient Brown has become this year. A question though we have to ask is, are these numbers a function of the offense or his skill? If he had a higher Usg, how much better would the other numbers be? Would he still be efficient? Is he capable of reaching another level with more Usg?

Much of Jaylen's scoring efficiency bump this season comes from other guys creating looks for him. That's why you see those low touches and possession numbers. The great thing is he's made the most out of those. Not all of his shots are assisted, esp the ones where he takes several dribbles and drives to the basket, but right now, he's much better making a move off the catch -- either to pull up from three or drive hard to the rim. On the team, Smart, Kemba, Hayward, and Tatum are all ahead of him in terms of creating shots for others. And that's totally fine, as long as Brown is used correctly while on the floor. He can get to his 20+ just by taking those open catch-and-shoot threes, sprinting in transition, getting a couple post-ups against mismatches, and finishing/getting fouled near the rim.

[djFan71]

Brown would absolutely be a top 4 player on the Warriors. Call me a homer all you want but I’m taking a 23 yr old averaging 20/6/2 on 49% FG and 38% 3PT over Wiggins and over this iteration of Draymond in 2020. And please don’t tell me a top pick in this year’s draft is better than Brown lol. Might be the most ludicrous thing I’ve read.

Brown has also been really good in the playoffs as well so not sure where you’re getting that from.

Amongst 20 PPG scorers this season, Brown ranks:

- 3rd lowest time of possession
- 2nd lowest amount of touches
- Highest EFG% for guards
- 2nd in FG% & 2P% for guards
- Lowest USG%
- 4th in Pts/Touch
- 2nd in transition FG% & EFG%

These are excellent stats here. Definitely speaks to how efficient Brown has become this year. A question though we have to ask is, are these numbers a function of the offense or his skill? If he had a higher Usg, how much better would the other numbers be? Would he still be efficient? Is he capable of reaching another level with more Usg?

Much of Jaylen's scoring efficiency bump this season comes from other guys creating looks for him. That's why you see those low touches and possession numbers. The great thing is he's made the most out of those. Not all of his shots are assisted, esp the ones where he takes several dribbles and drives to the basket, but right now, he's much better making a move off the catch -- either to pull up from three or drive hard to the rim. On the team, Smart, Kemba, Hayward, and Tatum are all ahead of him in terms of creating shots for others. And that's totally fine, as long as Brown is used correctly while on the floor. He can get to his 20+ just by taking those open catch-and-shoot threes, sprinting in transition, getting a couple post-ups against mismatches, and finishing/getting fouled near the rim.

And usually as the 3rd or 4th focus of the defense. Again, great that he's doing what he is - you can only score against the guy guarding you as they don't say. But, he is flourishing in the easiest offensive role of our top 4.

[Captain_Caveman]

It’s not necessarily that they need the bench scoring. They have the #4 offense in the league so that’s not the issue. It’s having shooting off the bench to pose a threat to the defense. There is currently no scoring or shooting threat coming off the bench. It’s not like they need some 10+ PPG scorer as their 8th man but they do need a guy who can provide some offense.

Smart is an elite 6th man. Kanter is a solid backup big. The issue is playing Wanamaker who shouldn’t even be in this league. I think they can develop a nice bench through the draft which also is good for cap management. At #14 this year a guy like Saddiq Bey, Tyrese Maxey, Aaron Nesmith are already upgrades in the rotation to be a scoring threats.

Next year’s rotation could be: Smart, Kanter, Romeo, #14, Timelord, Grant. That’s 11 deep and is fine as a bench in my opinion, assuming our pick at #14 is a guy who can score like I mentioned above. And in games vs playoff teams that rotation shrinks to 8-9 as well so it’ll depend on the development of Romeo, Timelord, Grant, and our draft pick this year.

There is zero reason that you can't stagger four 20ppg caliber players to have at least 1-2 of them on the floor at any given moment. At worst, it is one playing alongside both Smart and Kanter against other backups for small stretches. Oh... except you can't use Jaylen like that because he can't create for others or even himself as a primary option.

When everyone is healthy they do stagger having 1-2 of their top 4 guys on the court at all times...

Which is exactly why I said they don't need some 10+ PPG scorer as their 8th man but just simply need bench players who are capable of making open threes and being shooting threats.

It's clear you're not a Jaylen Brown fan at all which is fine. When you say he'd be the 4th best player on the current Warriors team and that if they get a top pick in this draft he'd be the 5th best player, I just can't take you serious I'm sorry. In no world is any top 3 pick in this draft better than Jaylen Brown.

I said Jaylen might not be top 4 on the Warriors, and might not be better than a top 5 pick this year. You countered by saying that he is better than Draymond, and are trying to talk credibility?

[Captain_Caveman]

Again man, Jaylen is not the problem on that list. As for the bolded, well if you dont like giving out value contracts then thank god you arent a gm. I mean going into next year you could easily trade Jaylen for positive value to about a dozen teams that need wing play, by definition then it isnt a bad contract. He's getting paid what is essentially third banana money for a player on a good team. I mean his 22.8 million would have been the fourth highest salary on last years raptors for example behind Lowry, Kawhi, Gasol and just ahead of Ibaka.

Try this exercise. What competing team this year would he not at least arguably be at least the third best player on right now? The answer is: pretty much none.

And thats before we factor in that again he's still likely to improve at least modestly before his prime. He may end up a legit #2 on a title team type guy by his prime.

In short man your analysis on this is just wrong, your problem isnt with Jaylen's contract. Its a perfect reasonable contract you can win with and thats has some considerable upside. Having a value contract like that is, in fact, of considerable advantage when trying to build a champion. Your problem is that the Celtics dont have a true 1A, top 10 level player on the roster. If we did Jaylen would slot in nicely behind that guy as a reasonably paid support piece.

You are arguing for value in a vacuum. I am arguing for a path to true contention. Couldn't care less if our guys are "worth the money" relative to other players in the league. I'm sure you could have made the same case for Andy Dalton as a Bengals quarterback, but the bottom line is that you don't win titles paying average money to average QBs like Andy Dalton. So what's the point? No, really. What's the point?

Ainge and the BBP aren't confused about how this works. In the NBA, you need a legit MVP candidate plus another top 10-15 guy, or two other All-Stars. If you have that, you are a contender and your bench is an afterthought. And if you don't have that, you are not a contender and your bench is still an afterthought.

I didn't mind the Hayward contract at the time because I saw how it fit holistically into our build plan. We had a legit shot at AD. Overpaying Hayward just a matter of lux tax if it facilitated that. Now? Jaylen's and Kemba's contracts not facilitating anything but being 5th place for the next five years. There's no trades to make, and no path to get to true contention. At the same time our young guys are getting older, so are our old guys. We are entirely dependent on Tatum making an MVP leap that is highly unlikely.

The idea that you win titles by having the best 3rd or 4th best player is something I reject out of hand. You win titles because your 1st and 2nd best players are better. But to answer your question, I think the Warriors and Clippers both have 3 guys better than Jaylen. Jazz and Rockets comparable. Raptors, Nuggets, and Heat all have better functional depth with better salary structures. Lakers and Bucks not far off, with far better talent at the top of the lineup.

Jaylen is no future #2 on a title team. And positive trade value? How so? Name one realistic scenario where we get a better player for Jaylen and spare parts. At best, we could make a lateral move. At best. There is no one on the team with positive trade value, which is kind of the problem.

Again I guarantee there are numerous teams who come this off season would gladly take Jaylen into cap space and give you back good draft pick(s). That's positive value.

Value to relative to player is critically important to building a contender, because a guy on a value contract is always trad-able for stuff you can use if you decide you don't want him. Jaylen has the benefit of both being on a value contract, playing a valuable position AND having upside left to explore. That's a player 9/10 of the league would want.

You say you need a MVP and another all nab or two all stars. Jaylen was getting all star buzz this season, it would shock absolutely no one if he made it next year.

I don't think we're ever going to agree on this, mostly because your evaluation of what Jaylen is right now is so far out of wack which with the median opinion on him that it makes this argument functionally impossible to have. I think Jaylen MIGHT be able to be the 2nd best player on a champion, in time. He's certainly on a similar trajectory to players like Butler, George, ect who fit that bill.

Here's a quote from Sam Vecenie's rookie scale rankings on the Athletic where he's listed under "multi time all star" referring to their ceiling.

"I don’t know that Brown has gotten enough respect in the Most Improved Player of the Year discussion. I don’t think he’d be my pick, but he deserves a place in it. The level to which he took a leap this year is staggering and he’s now a very real max player after I thought the extension the Celtics handed him early in the season was a bit questionable."

Or from an Eastern Conference executive quoted by Keith Smith:

“We had an idea of throwing him a max offer sheet as a restricted free agent, if we could make the cap space happen. If nothing else, Boston would have had to match it. Danny (Ainge) did good to get him for less than the max."

I don't agree that it is a value contract, and would define positive value as the ability to possibly get a superior return, not on whether you can be liquidated for fifty cents on the dollar. There is no way for us to improve from here. We are the best of the teams that don't matter, but they don't give trophies out for that.

[Floody100]

Why do you guys keep arguing with Cave ? His ego’s too big to realise he was wrong about Jaylen & his contract.

[24istheLAW]

I don't agree that it is a value contract, and would define positive value as the ability to possibly get a superior return, not on whether you can be liquidated for fifty cents on the dollar. There is no way for us to improve from here. We are the best of the teams that don't matter, but they don't give trophies out for that.

I agree with the idea that a title team is really defined by the MVP/top 10 player at the top. And that this forum generally wastes a lot of keystrokes re-arranging deck chairs below that, rather than stopping to question who on the team has that ceiling.

If you look at top 10 players moving historically, they are sold at .50 cents on the dollar. Star player wants out, the hostage team has no leverage because the player knows where they want to go. No one had to pay anything remotely resembling sticker price for Kawhi or AD.

The real limiting factor is the insistence of the star player to come. If the guy wants to come, the Celtics can make the trade. If the guy doesn't want to come, they can't. It's up to the stars. And the Celtics, who positioned themselves to sign Durant (chose GS) and then positioned themselves to trade for AD (chose LA) should know that better than anyone else.

[Captain_Caveman]

Why do you guys keep arguing with Cave ? His ego’s too big to realise he was wrong about Jaylen & his contract.

Heard that about IT too.

And Al Jefferson. And David Lee. Among others.

Seems kinda silly now.

[themoneyteam2]

There is zero reason that you can't stagger four 20ppg caliber players to have at least 1-2 of them on the floor at any given moment. At worst, it is one playing alongside both Smart and Kanter against other backups for small stretches. Oh... except you can't use Jaylen like that because he can't create for others or even himself as a primary option.

When everyone is healthy they do stagger having 1-2 of their top 4 guys on the court at all times...

Which is exactly why I said they don't need some 10+ PPG scorer as their 8th man but just simply need bench players who are capable of making open threes and being shooting threats.

It's clear you're not a Jaylen Brown fan at all which is fine. When you say he'd be the 4th best player on the current Warriors team and that if they get a top pick in this draft he'd be the 5th best player, I just can't take you serious I'm sorry. In no world is any top 3 pick in this draft better than Jaylen Brown.

I said Jaylen might not be top 4 on the Warriors, and might not be better than a top 5 pick this year. You countered by saying that he is better than Draymond, and are trying to talk credibility?

Do I really lose credibility by saying he's better than 2020 Draymond though? We can compare if you want. To be top 4 on Warriors he just had to be better than one of Wiggins or Draymond.


Box score stats: - Heavily favor Brown unless you prefer a guy averaging a triple single.

Brown: 20.6 PPG, 6.3 RPG, 2.1 APG, 48.8% FG, 38.7% 3PT, 72.9% FT, 2.3 TOPG, 1.1 SPG

Draymond: 8.0 PPG, 6.2 RPG, 6.2 APG, 38.9% FG, 27.9% 3PT, 75.9% FT, 2.3 TOPG, 1.4 SPG

Advanced Stats:
Brown: 17.3 PER, 58.9 TS%, 4.8 WS, .126 WS/48, 1.2 OBPM, -0.2 DBPM, 0.9 BPM, 1.4 VORP, 111 ORtg, 108 DRtg, 1.08 RPM

Draymond: 12.6 PER, 48.9 TS%, 1.1 WS, .044 WS/48, -2.0 OBPM, 1.9 DBPM, -0.2 BPM, 0.6 VORP, 100 ORtg, 110 DRtg, 0.93 RPM

So apparently I lose credibility for saying Brown is better than Draymond, despite him leading in all but 4 out of 23 statistical categories. Please tell me how Draymond is better. He's a better defender and facilitator. That's it. He's a negative on offense at this stage in his career by any metric you look at. This isn't 2016 Draymond anymore.

Just admit you are wrong about Brown. And no, a top 5 pick in this draft has no case for possibly being better than Brown.

[Captain_Caveman]

When everyone is healthy they do stagger having 1-2 of their top 4 guys on the court at all times...

Which is exactly why I said they don't need some 10+ PPG scorer as their 8th man but just simply need bench players who are capable of making open threes and being shooting threats.

It's clear you're not a Jaylen Brown fan at all which is fine. When you say he'd be the 4th best player on the current Warriors team and that if they get a top pick in this draft he'd be the 5th best player, I just can't take you serious I'm sorry. In no world is any top 3 pick in this draft better than Jaylen Brown.

I said Jaylen might not be top 4 on the Warriors, and might not be better than a top 5 pick this year. You countered by saying that he is better than Draymond, and are trying to talk credibility?

Do I really lose credibility by saying he's better than 2020 Draymond though? We can compare if you want. To be top 4 on Warriors he just had to be better than one of Wiggins or Draymond.


Box score stats: - Heavily favor Brown unless you prefer a guy averaging a triple single.

Brown: 20.6 PPG, 6.3 RPG, 2.1 APG, 48.8% FG, 38.7% 3PT, 72.9% FT, 2.3 TOPG, 1.1 SPG

Draymond: 8.0 PPG, 6.2 RPG, 6.2 APG, 38.9% FG, 27.9% 3PT, 75.9% FT, 2.3 TOPG, 1.4 SPG

Advanced Stats:
Brown: 17.3 PER, 58.9 TS%, 4.8 WS, .126 WS/48, 1.2 OBPM, -0.2 DBPM, 0.9 BPM, 1.4 VORP, 111 ORtg, 108 DRtg, 1.08 RPM

Draymond: 12.6 PER, 48.9 TS%, 1.1 WS, .044 WS/48, -2.0 OBPM, 1.9 DBPM, -0.2 BPM, 0.6 VORP, 100 ORtg, 110 DRtg, 0.93 RPM

So apparently I lose credibility for saying Brown is better than Draymond, despite him leading in all but 4 out of 23 statistical categories. Please tell me how Dra is better. He's a better defender and facilitator. That's it. He's a negative on offense at this stage in his career by any metric you look at. This isn't 2016 Draymond anymore.

Just admit you are wrong about Brown. And no, a top 5 pick in this draft has no case for possibly being better than Brown.

Yes, you absolutely lose credibility trying to say Jaylen is better than Draymond.

Further, as I have been saying here for like 12 years now, using stats to try to make that argument is a fundamental lack of understanding about basketball on the most basic of levels. That's the kind of argument that was used when an overwhelming majority of this forum didn't want to trade Al Jefferson for KG. It's the kind of argument that was used when an overwhelming majority of this forum wanted to trade multiple Nets picks for Boogie Cousins.

If you are using his 2019-20 stats as the metric to judge Dray's worth, I really don't even know where to begin. In basketball, or life.

[Floody100]

I said Jaylen might not be top 4 on the Warriors, and might not be better than a top 5 pick this year. You countered by saying that he is better than Draymond, and are trying to talk credibility?

Do I really lose credibility by saying he's better than 2020 Draymond though? We can compare if you want. To be top 4 on Warriors he just had to be better than one of Wiggins or Draymond.


Box score stats: - Heavily favor Brown unless you prefer a guy averaging a triple single.

Brown: 20.6 PPG, 6.3 RPG, 2.1 APG, 48.8% FG, 38.7% 3PT, 72.9% FT, 2.3 TOPG, 1.1 SPG

Draymond: 8.0 PPG, 6.2 RPG, 6.2 APG, 38.9% FG, 27.9% 3PT, 75.9% FT, 2.3 TOPG, 1.4 SPG

Advanced Stats:
Brown: 17.3 PER, 58.9 TS%, 4.8 WS, .126 WS/48, 1.2 OBPM, -0.2 DBPM, 0.9 BPM, 1.4 VORP, 111 ORtg, 108 DRtg, 1.08 RPM

Draymond: 12.6 PER, 48.9 TS%, 1.1 WS, .044 WS/48, -2.0 OBPM, 1.9 DBPM, -0.2 BPM, 0.6 VORP, 100 ORtg, 110 DRtg, 0.93 RPM

So apparently I lose credibility for saying Brown is better than Draymond, despite him leading in all but 4 out of 23 statistical categories. Please tell me how Dra is better. He's a better defender and facilitator. That's it. He's a negative on offense at this stage in his career by any metric you look at. This isn't 2016 Draymond anymore.

Just admit you are wrong about Brown. And no, a top 5 pick in this draft has no case for possibly being better than Brown.

Yes, you absolutely lose credibility trying to say Jaylen is better than Draymond.

Further, as I have been saying here for like 12 years now, using stats to try to make that argument is a fundamental lack of understanding about basketball on the most basic of levels. That's the kind of argument that was used when an overwhelming majority of this forum didn't want to trade Al Jefferson for KG. It's the kind of argument that was used when an overwhelming majority of this forum wanted to trade multiple Nets picks for Boogie Cousins.

If you are using his 2019-20 stats as the metric to judge Dray's worth, I really don't even know where to begin. In basketball, or life.

You’re reaching Cave. If it hadn’t been for Steph & Klay, Draymond would’ve been playing in Europe the last 3 years.

[MagicBagley18]

Why do you guys keep arguing with Cave ? His ego’s too big to realise he was wrong about Jaylen & his contract.

The disconnect tho I feel is that the argument is that contracts like browns compounded with Hayward and kemba have killed our flexibility moving forward. That’s true IMO. The brown element is just that he never is going to be A superstar or a perennial all star

We r entering year 5 with Jaylen. He’s made a huge leap this year but I don’t think he’s a superstar or close to a perennial all star

[Floody100]

Why do you guys keep arguing with Cave ? His ego’s too big to realise he was wrong about Jaylen & his contract.

The disconnect tho I feel is that the argument is that contracts like browns compounded with Hayward and kemba have killed our flexibility moving forward. That’s true IMO. The brown element is just that he never is going to be A superstar or a perennial all star

We r entering year 5 with Jaylen. He’s made a huge leap this year but I don’t think he’s a superstar or close to a perennial all star

Superstars & perennial all stars usually get max contracts though. If Jaylen becomes a perennial all star then this contract is a bargain.