Celtics General Thread 2019-20, "Re-Start"

[Homerclease]

No your point is he can make an all star game and we sell high on him....he’s gotta be an all star first before we can trade him for a superstar. Basically saying he’s young- my point is it’s year 5 he just learned how to dribble in a straight line and chew gum

I don’t think making all star games has much bearing on anything so I don’t know why you keep bringing that up. The point I’m trying to make is that there is enough room for improvement in his game and he’s young enough to be dealt while still in his prime for what should be at the minimum a market rate deal. Heck, Zach LaVine was the centerpiece in a Jimmy Butler deal and he’s horrible. I don’t think locking Brown up hurts the Celtics flexibility at all. I think it improves it. Say we never signed Kemba, let Hayward and Brown walk and didn’t receive any compensation for any of them. Where does that leave us? Tatum + Smart and a bunch of cap space? Now you have to convince a star to sign here after letting two above average guys walk to play with Tatum who by this point, is approaching Anthony Davis levels of “why can’t you build a team around me”. Want to make a trade for a guy to play with Tatum? With what? Smart and a bunch of mid firsts? It’s not ideal, but we have to keep the cupboard stocked with something and attempt to keep our future franchise guy happy

I’ve been on record as saying I would have traded brown before it got to that point when everyone here was saying he’s untouchable. It’s funny about LaVine because If Zach LaVine was on the Celtics he would be overrated by the fans here just like brown is, Isaiah was etc.

the Hayward signing was a good move at its time- unfortunately injury and other moves like getting AD didn’t happen but he at the very least was a player on the come up and ascending, fit the scheme to a T and fit around ainge’s plan to get AD and was a pat on the back for stevens because they love each other.

Kemba was a signing by wyc to keep the fans engaged and happy. If your asking if we would have been better off (in terms of flexibility and maneuverability) building around a 21 yr old stud in tatum and having cap space and or picks instead of signing kemba? there’s a real argument

We also have to keep that 21 year old stud happy, or he’s going to force his way out of here like so many other stars have done to so many other teams. I wish it were as easy as to wipe the slate clean and just build a team from scratch around Tatum, they’ve done a pretty good job tbh

[KGboss]

Brown is a stud I dont understand the hate he is getting right now.

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He's not being hated. I'm saying that he is slightly overpaid, just as Kemba and Hayward are, and that our contract structure on the whole is why we don't and won't have money for a deep bench going forward unless major moves are made.

Hes averaging just under 21-6-2 is he not? That's underpaid? Oh ok. I'm glad they locked him up when they did before the season when he was still a question mark.

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[Homerclease]

Brown is a stud I dont understand the hate he is getting right now.

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He's not being hated. I'm saying that he is slightly overpaid, just as Kemba and Hayward are, and that our contract structure on the whole is why we don't and won't have money for a deep bench going forward unless major moves are made.

They are just too young and too inconsistent. Tatum is on the precipice, Brown runs as hot and cold as anyone in the league and the bench is a bunch of young guys and vet min dudes. Ainges best bet is to hit on his mid rounders. Guys like Grant, Timelord, Waters and Langford have to get better and crack this rotation and force the Semi’s and the Wanamakers to the bench. Too much to ask for given the state of the team right now. In a year or two? Different story

[themoneyteam2]

You could use the fact that Dray is probably going to the Hall of Fame, while Jaylen is almost certainly not.

I mean, I get what you are saying. Stats are proof. The numbers are right there. Just as they were for Wilt over Russell, Peyton and Brees over Brady, Vince Carter over Pierce, and Boogie Cousins over keeping the picks that became Jaylen and Tatum in the first place.

But I kinda feel like that isn't the big thing when you are a fan of a team with 17 titles and 0 scoring champions.

Well I’m talking about Draymond in 2020, not his 2016-2018...

I think that’s where you’re mistaken. Draymond has obviously had a better career and peak. However, we’re talking about the players currently and not for their careers so Draymond being a HOF is irrelevant when he absolutely sucked this year and has regressed the past 2 years.

In 2020 is not better than Jaylen Brown I’m sorry. You have yet to pe ovide one single shred of credible evidence or argument as to how Draymond is CURRENTLY better than Brown, other than just saying I don’t know basketball or that Draymond was better from 2016-2018.

That's disingenuous to try to boil Dray down to his stats over a 43-game span where the Warriors were injured and often tanking outright. If not for a significant amount of significant injuries, Dray could have easily been working on his 5th ring in 6 seasons this year, with the other year coming down to the very end of Game 7 in the Finals.

Ok but that's all we have to go off of this year. Not sure how I'd lose credibility for taking Brown > Draymond currently.

The real question is how a top 5 pick in this year's draft might be better than Brown next year. I'm actually curious who you have in mind. Lamelo? Wiseman? Edwards?

[Feed Your Head]

Brown is a stud I dont understand the hate he is getting right now.

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He's not being hated. I'm saying that he is slightly overpaid, just as Kemba and Hayward are, and that our contract structure on the whole is why we don't and won't have money for a deep bench going forward unless major moves are made.

Hes averaging just under 21-6-2 is he not? That's underpaid? Oh ok. I'm glad they locked him up when they did before the season when he was still a question mark.

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This always pisses people off, but Jaylen puts those numbers up because he is treated as a relative afterthought by defenses. I give him credit though, I think now that he got paid, he puts his ego aside and does a fantastic job playing within his role.

I don’t think anyone dislikes Jaylen, it’s almost impossible to lol. It’s just people varying between thinking he can be a superstar, and others thinking he is a 3&D guy on steroids. Either way he is a very good player.

[Curmudgeon]

Jaylen Brown defends. Two-way players are always underrated.

[KGboss]

He's not being hated. I'm saying that he is slightly overpaid, just as Kemba and Hayward are, and that our contract structure on the whole is why we don't and won't have money for a deep bench going forward unless major moves are made.

Hes averaging just under 21-6-2 is he not? That's underpaid? Oh ok. I'm glad they locked him up when they did before the season when he was still a question mark.

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This always pisses people off, but Jaylen puts those numbers up because he is treated as a relative afterthought by defenses. I give him credit though, I think now that he got paid, he puts his ego aside and does a fantastic job playing within his role. I will say his post game has improved this season, and he can back his man down and hit that 10-15 foot fade-away almost at will.

I don’t think anyone dislikes Jaylen, it’s almost impossible to lol. It’s just people varying between thinking he can be a superstar, and others thinking he is a 3&D guy on steroids. Either way he is a very good player.

I hate that argument. So because the defense has to pay attention to his teammates that's the only reason brown scores? I must be watching different games because theres been several games this season especially in the bubble where brown has had to put this team on his back because Tatum cant shoot and Kemba being out for them to even have a chance at a win.

I'm not saying hes a superstar but I disagree he is overpaid.

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[themoneyteam2]

I guess I just don't see how he's overpaid. They actually signed him for less than the max rookie extension. I am confident from what I've read that he would have been thrown a max offer sheet if he hit FA too. Celtics would've overpaid if they gave him a 5 yr/170 deal like Jamal Murray got.

He's a 23 yr old wing averaging 21/6/2 on 49% FG and 39% 3PT. He will make $22.9 million next year. Here are guys in that same range.

Nikola Vucevic: $26.0 million
Buddy Hield: $24.4 million
Lamarcus Aldrige: $24.0 million
Draymond Green: $22.6 million
Harrison Barnes: $22.2 million
Victor Oladipo: $21.0 million
Malcolm Brogdon: $20.7 million
Zach Lavine: $19.5 million
Gary Harris: $19.5 million
Tim Hardaway Jr: $19.2 million
Terry Rozier: $18.9 million

It's just what the market pays. Looks to me like Brown's contract is pretty damn spot on for the player he is lol. Only Lavine and Oladipo are fringe all-star guys like Brown. He is only going to get better too.

I think the bench will develop in the coming years from development. I'm pretty high on Romeo being a good role player. Grant has some work to do. But this year (Assuming MEM misses playoffs), I think they can get a good rookie role player at that spot. Maxey, Bey, and Nesmith catch my eye for guys who can provide scoring/shooting right away.

Top 7 are Kemba, Brown, Tatum, Hayward, Their, Smart, and Kanter. I think that's really good. They just need 2 of Romeo, Grant, #14 pick, and maybe a vet min to provide good minutes as the 8th and 9th man in a playoff series.

[Captain_Caveman]

Well I’m talking about Draymond in 2020, not his 2016-2018...

I think that’s where you’re mistaken. Draymond has obviously had a better career and peak. However, we’re talking about the players currently and not for their careers so Draymond being a HOF is irrelevant when he absolutely sucked this year and has regressed the past 2 years.

In 2020 is not better than Jaylen Brown I’m sorry. You have yet to pe ovide one single shred of credible evidence or argument as to how Draymond is CURRENTLY better than Brown, other than just saying I don’t know basketball or that Draymond was better from 2016-2018.

That's disingenuous to try to boil Dray down to his stats over a 43-game span where the Warriors were injured and often tanking outright. If not for a significant amount of significant injuries, Dray could have easily been working on his 5th ring in 6 seasons this year, with the other year coming down to the very end of Game 7 in the Finals.

Ok but that's all we have to go off of this year. Not sure how I'd lose credibility for taking Brown > Draymond currently.

The real question is how a top 5 pick in this year's draft might be better than Brown next year. I'm actually curious who you have in mind. Lamelo? Wiseman? Edwards?

I can pull a half-season stretch of Tatum that makes him look like ass. Better yet, Jaylen's first 20 games of last season, when he was among the very worst rotation players in the league. There's no need to do that. We know what these guys are and are not.

And to clarify, I am saying that Jaylen *might* not be as good as what they could draft with that pick, while you are saying that Haylen *is* better than Draymond. If you want the truth of it, I don't think they even end up keeping the pick. Trading down in order to turn Wiggins into Aaron Gordon/Bomba is one possibility, but it may also be used to trade for Giannis after he tries to force his way there. The value of quarters over dimes will be pretty apparent if that happens.

[Feed Your Head]

Hes averaging just under 21-6-2 is he not? That's underpaid? Oh ok. I'm glad they locked him up when they did before the season when he was still a question mark.

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This always pisses people off, but Jaylen puts those numbers up because he is treated as a relative afterthought by defenses. I give him credit though, I think now that he got paid, he puts his ego aside and does a fantastic job playing within his role. I will say his post game has improved this season, and he can back his man down and hit that 10-15 foot fade-away almost at will.

I don’t think anyone dislikes Jaylen, it’s almost impossible to lol. It’s just people varying between thinking he can be a superstar, and others thinking he is a 3&D guy on steroids. Either way he is a very good player.

I hate that argument. So because the defense has to pay attention to his teammates that's the only reason brown scores? I must be watching different games because theres been several games this season especially in the bubble where brown has had to put this team on his back because Tatum cant shoot and Kemba being out for them to even have a chance at a win.

I'm not saying hes a superstar but I disagree he is overpaid.

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Nobody said that’s the only reason he scores lol, but a big part of why he puts up 20 a game on a 60% TS is because he gets to attack mismatches and knock down a ton of open threes. It’s not knocking him, it’s just what it is. He is a play finisher, not a creator. Yeah he has games where he goes off, but he’s a borderline all star, of course has has that type of ability.

I don’t see how that is hating on him.

[themoneyteam2]

That's disingenuous to try to boil Dray down to his stats over a 43-game span where the Warriors were injured and often tanking outright. If not for a significant amount of significant injuries, Dray could have easily been working on his 5th ring in 6 seasons this year, with the other year coming down to the very end of Game 7 in the Finals.

Ok but that's all we have to go off of this year. Not sure how I'd lose credibility for taking Brown > Draymond currently.

The real question is how a top 5 pick in this year's draft might be better than Brown next year. I'm actually curious who you have in mind. Lamelo? Wiseman? Edwards?

I can pull a half-season stretch of Tatum that makes him look like ass. Better yet, Jaylen's first 20 games of last season, when he was among the very worst rotation players in the league. There's no need to do that. We know what these guys are and are not.

And to clarify, I am saying that Jaylen *might* not be as good as what they could draft with that pick, while you are saying that Haylen *is* better than Draymond. If you want the truth of it, I don't think they even end up keeping the pick. Trading down in order to turn Wiggins into Aaron Gordon/Bomba is one possibility, but it may also be used to trade for Giannis after he tries to force his way there. The value of quarters over dimes will be pretty apparent if that happens.

I guess we'll just agree to disagree on this haha. I definitely would take Brown over Draymond. Nothing I saw this year will convince me Draymond is better. And for Brown to be a top 4 player on Golden State, he'd have to be better than just 1 of Draymond or Wiggins which I think he is.

[Captain_Caveman]

Jaylen Brown defends. Two-way players are always underrated.

His defense is peculiar. He has some tools and the effort is mostly there, but he gets beat so often it is crazy.

[Captain_Caveman]

Ok but that's all we have to go off of this year. Not sure how I'd lose credibility for taking Brown > Draymond currently.

The real question is how a top 5 pick in this year's draft might be better than Brown next year. I'm actually curious who you have in mind. Lamelo? Wiseman? Edwards?

I can pull a half-season stretch of Tatum that makes him look like ass. Better yet, Jaylen's first 20 games of last season, when he was among the very worst rotation players in the league. There's no need to do that. We know what these guys are and are not.

And to clarify, I am saying that Jaylen *might* not be as good as what they could draft with that pick, while you are saying that Haylen *is* better than Draymond. If you want the truth of it, I don't think they even end up keeping the pick. Trading down in order to turn Wiggins into Aaron Gordon/Bomba is one possibility, but it may also be used to trade for Giannis after he tries to force his way there. The value of quarters over dimes will be pretty apparent if that happens.

I guess we'll just agree to disagree on this haha. I definitely would take Brown over Draymond. Nothing I saw this year will convince me Draymond is better. And for Brown to be a top 4 player on Golden State, he'd have to be better than just 1 of Draymond or Wiggins which I think he is.

Yeah, we will. I have no interest in claiming the best 4th best player in the league. That's like hanging a division champion banner, IMO.

[themoneyteam2]

Jaylen Brown defends. Two-way players are always underrated.

His defense is peculiar. He has some tools and the effort is mostly there, but he gets beat so often it is crazy.

100%. Glad I'm not the only one who notices that. Idk whether it's just lapses or what but far too often he gets beat and it's obviously not due to athleticism.

[themoneyteam2]

I can pull a half-season stretch of Tatum that makes him look like ass. Better yet, Jaylen's first 20 games of last season, when he was among the very worst rotation players in the league. There's no need to do that. We know what these guys are and are not.

And to clarify, I am saying that Jaylen *might* not be as good as what they could draft with that pick, while you are saying that Haylen *is* better than Draymond. If you want the truth of it, I don't think they even end up keeping the pick. Trading down in order to turn Wiggins into Aaron Gordon/Bomba is one possibility, but it may also be used to trade for Giannis after he tries to force his way there. The value of quarters over dimes will be pretty apparent if that happens.

I guess we'll just agree to disagree on this haha. I definitely would take Brown over Draymond. Nothing I saw this year will convince me Draymond is better. And for Brown to be a top 4 player on Golden State, he'd have to be better than just 1 of Draymond or Wiggins which I think he is.

Yeah, we will. I have no interest in claiming the best 4th best player in the league. That's like hanging a division champion banner, IMO.

I agree. Was simply comparing those two for the argument.

[MagicBagley18]

I don’t think making all star games has much bearing on anything so I don’t know why you keep bringing that up. The point I’m trying to make is that there is enough room for improvement in his game and he’s young enough to be dealt while still in his prime for what should be at the minimum a market rate deal. Heck, Zach LaVine was the centerpiece in a Jimmy Butler deal and he’s horrible. I don’t think locking Brown up hurts the Celtics flexibility at all. I think it improves it. Say we never signed Kemba, let Hayward and Brown walk and didn’t receive any compensation for any of them. Where does that leave us? Tatum + Smart and a bunch of cap space? Now you have to convince a star to sign here after letting two above average guys walk to play with Tatum who by this point, is approaching Anthony Davis levels of “why can’t you build a team around me”. Want to make a trade for a guy to play with Tatum? With what? Smart and a bunch of mid firsts? It’s not ideal, but we have to keep the cupboard stocked with something and attempt to keep our future franchise guy happy

I’ve been on record as saying I would have traded brown before it got to that point when everyone here was saying he’s untouchable. It’s funny about LaVine because If Zach LaVine was on the Celtics he would be overrated by the fans here just like brown is, Isaiah was etc.

the Hayward signing was a good move at its time- unfortunately injury and other moves like getting AD didn’t happen but he at the very least was a player on the come up and ascending, fit the scheme to a T and fit around ainge’s plan to get AD and was a pat on the back for stevens because they love each other.

Kemba was a signing by wyc to keep the fans engaged and happy. If your asking if we would have been better off (in terms of flexibility and maneuverability) building around a 21 yr old stud in tatum and having cap space and or picks instead of signing kemba? there’s a real argument

We also have to keep that 21 year old stud happy, or he’s going to force his way out of here like so many other stars have done to so many other teams. I wish it were as easy as to wipe the slate clean and just build a team from scratch around Tatum, they’ve done a pretty good job tbh

He’s gonna turn down a max extension and play on the qualifier? Doubtful. Has it ever happened? But I see your point

[MagicBagley18]

That's disingenuous to try to boil Dray down to his stats over a 43-game span where the Warriors were injured and often tanking outright. If not for a significant amount of significant injuries, Dray could have easily been working on his 5th ring in 6 seasons this year, with the other year coming down to the very end of Game 7 in the Finals.

Ok but that's all we have to go off of this year. Not sure how I'd lose credibility for taking Brown > Draymond currently.

The real question is how a top 5 pick in this year's draft might be better than Brown next year. I'm actually curious who you have in mind. Lamelo? Wiseman? Edwards?

I can pull a half-season stretch of Tatum that makes him look like ass. Better yet, Jaylen's first 20 games of last season, when he was among the very worst rotation players in the league. There's no need to do that. We know what these guys are and are not.

And to clarify, I am saying that Jaylen *might* not be as good as what they could draft with that pick, while you are saying that Haylen *is* better than Draymond. If you want the truth of it, I don't think they even end up keeping the pick. Trading down in order to turn Wiggins into Aaron Gordon/Bomba is one possibility, but it may also be used to trade for Giannis after he tries to force his way there. The value of quarters over dimes will be pretty apparent if that happens.

Giannis thing is legit huh?

[Homerclease]

I’ve been on record as saying I would have traded brown before it got to that point when everyone here was saying he’s untouchable. It’s funny about LaVine because If Zach LaVine was on the Celtics he would be overrated by the fans here just like brown is, Isaiah was etc.

the Hayward signing was a good move at its time- unfortunately injury and other moves like getting AD didn’t happen but he at the very least was a player on the come up and ascending, fit the scheme to a T and fit around ainge’s plan to get AD and was a pat on the back for stevens because they love each other.

Kemba was a signing by wyc to keep the fans engaged and happy. If your asking if we would have been better off (in terms of flexibility and maneuverability) building around a 21 yr old stud in tatum and having cap space and or picks instead of signing kemba? there’s a real argument

We also have to keep that 21 year old stud happy, or he’s going to force his way out of here like so many other stars have done to so many other teams. I wish it were as easy as to wipe the slate clean and just build a team from scratch around Tatum, they’ve done a pretty good job tbh

He’s gonna turn down a max extension and play on the qualifier? Doubtful. Has it ever happened? But I see your point

No, he likely takes the money. That doesn’t mean he’s a Celtic by the end of that contract though. In three years at the very least he has Brown as a running mate. OR, you flip Brown along with whatever else you have for somebody better. You want Tatum here for the bulk of his entire career, not forcing his way out of town right as he’s about to reach his Zenith as a player

[ParticleMan]

jaylen is ridiculously underpaid if he keeps up what he's been doing this year. he's not even our #2 guy at this point, he's our #1a. one could make the case that since the first couple of months last season, he's been our best player.

if we can get tatum locked up, and i see no conceivable reason why tatum would want out, then we are in pretty good shape the next few years. the anchor is actually going to be kemba if his knee keeps acting up.

[greenroom31]

This “4th option” stuff is a joke. Hayward is behind Jaylen offensively at this point and picks his spots. Kemba has been hurt or resting a fair number of games this season and especially lately when Jaylen has been excelling. Was Jaylen the 4th option the other night when he singlehandedly slammed the door shut on Portland?

Just be honest — this argument is really agenda-driven as unfortunately it often is on this board. A while ago some posters aggressively argued that Jaylen was overpaid and that it would somehow create problems for us in the future. Now that he is kicking ass for basically the entire season these bogus excuses have to be created to sustain and defend the agenda and are dragged out every time people get excited about Jaylen. It’s really that simple.

The part I’d like to know from those against Jaylen and his deal is what would you have done? Just let him walk and assume we’ll sign someone better for that money with the cap space? That almost always requires an overpay to acquire someone on the downside (provided you can even get them). Look no further than the complaints in this thread about Kemba and Hayward’s salaries. It also makes us worse in the near term and is bad for morale.

We got Jaylen at a solid price and he is currently on a trajectory to overperform it. Second guessing because of COVID (which no one could have reasonably been expected to factor in) is also not fair.