Bubble Season Game 4: Toronto Raptors (48-18) v. Orlando Magic (32-36) - 8pm ET

[ChosenSavior]

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[thelead]

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I would sit him out indefinitely. We're going to get slaughtered with or without him.

I have a feeling we're doing the same with Bamba.

[darthmerrick]

Yall need to move on from Aaron Gordon and Vuc. Vucevic imo is time for a change of scenery. While Gordon IMO is just a bad basketball player and should sell while is value is somewhat high.

Vuc is a centerpointe of our offense and will probably stay until we get a better #1 option. For whatever reason Gasol just seems to get in his head or plays him well to get him out of rhythm. Since Raps acquired M. Gasol, Vuc has been a non-factor.

Gordon also seems to struggle against the Raptors (maybe Siakam, Gasol, Ibaka D?) and Van Fleet just seems to own us. One team we just struggle against, seem to be heading for another 1st round exist unless someone Fultz, Fournier, AG break through and make a leap.

[TheGlyde]

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Evan's tweet definitely has me feeling some type of way...

Me thinks Evan has never been a fan of AG.

CoughAG40ptsvsNetspostgamecommentscough

I wonder if Evan’s tone would change if Lowry hurt his BFF Vuc.

I think you guys are reaching a bit here. Reporters asked Cliff, T-Ross, Evan and Wes the same questions about the foul.

Cliff, T-Ross and Evan all just dismissed it saying either they didn't get a good look, or it is just a part of basketball. They are all experienced in what the media was trying to do, while Wes is much greener.

You could feel the reporters perk up when Wes gave his answer, it was like 'finally, someone giving a real response, instead of a canned dismissal'

The vets know that making a comment like Wes did could come back to bite them in many ways (when we play Toronto again, if Wes ever gets traded and ends up on the same roster with a player he has said something bad against etc).

The safest thing to do is just say 'it is what it is', which is essentially what Evan said.

[fateis007]

If Fultz isn't handed the drivers seat again soon, i'm pretty much done with this reason already. No reason to watch Augustine get us slaughtered any more. Fultz is great at getting open looks and putting pressure on defenses, while Augustine is good at dribbling the air out of the ball and he is probably the worst defender on the team.

[pepe1991]

If Fultz isn't handed the drivers seat again soon, i'm pretty much done with this reason already. No reason to watch Augustine get us slaughtered any more. Fultz is great at getting open looks and putting pressure on defenses, while Augustine is good at dribbling the air out of the ball and he is probably the worst defender on the team.

I mean sure, after epic 2-9 shooting and getting owned by HOF TJ Mchonnell it's just so obvious he is ready for prime role.

Fultz has no impact on Magic defense and negative impact to offense. Not like DJ is any better, but not like he is much worst. Non of them is average level starting PG by today's standards.

[ChosenSavior]

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Evan's tweet definitely has me feeling some type of way...

Me thinks Evan has never been a fan of AG.

CoughAG40ptsvsNetspostgamecommentscough

I wonder if Evan’s tone would change if Lowry hurt his BFF Vuc.

I think you guys are reaching a bit here. Reporters asked Cliff, T-Ross, Evan and Wes the same questions about the foul.

Cliff, T-Ross and Evan all just dismissed it saying either they didn't get a good look, or it is just a part of basketball. They are all experienced in what the media was trying to do, while Wes is much greener.

You could feel the reporters perk up when Wes gave his answer, it was like 'finally, someone giving a real response, instead of a canned dismissal'

The vets know that making a comment like Wes did could come back to bite them in many ways (when we play Toronto again, if Wes ever gets traded and ends up on the same roster with a player he has said something bad against etc).

The safest thing to do is just say 'it is what it is', which is essentially what Evan said.

I am not going to speak for Ned on this one (if they want to respond back to you on this, they can).

Speaking from my point of view on this Glyde, we are just going to have to agree to disagree. I am of the old mindset that with all the time these players spend together during the season and between those lines on the basketball court, they should want to have the attitude of fighting for one another, protect one another, and defend one another. Lowry's unnecessary reach while AG was already in the air just cost us our other talented forward for possibly the rest of this season as hamstring injuries are almost always unpredictable. What made the majority of the board mad is that not one teammate went up to check Lowry and defend AG. That to me shows that this team will not fight for one another when the going gets tough.

I agree with your observation on how the players addressed it. I just find it very soft with the exception of Wes. Cliff stating that he didn't get a good view of the play is pretty ridiculous to me considering the play happened right in front of the Magic bench. Also I am going to have to disagree on the "comments coming back to bite the Magic" angle. If we do happen to play Toronto again, we are already massive underdogs against them. Being coy about that flagrant foul is not going to increase our chances against them. As a matter of fact, these players should be getting tired of getting owned by Toronto for multiple seasons now.

That's how I feel about it.

[ChosenSavior]

If Fultz isn't handed the drivers seat again soon, i'm pretty much done with this reason already. No reason to watch Augustine get us slaughtered any more. Fultz is great at getting open looks and putting pressure on defenses, while Augustine is good at dribbling the air out of the ball and he is probably the worst defender on the team.

I mean sure, after epic 2-9 shooting and getting owned by HOF TJ Mchonnell it's just so obvious he is ready for prime role.

Fultz has no impact on Magic defense and negative impact to offense. Not like DJ is any better, but not like he is much worst. Non of them is average level starting PG by today's standards.

Honestly at this point, what do we have to lose? We are trying to win games but can't unless it is against teams that are just as mediocre or worse. At the same time, we aren't really trying to develop the young talent we do have. Markelle was in a really nice groove after the All-Star break and honestly was playing really good basketball in the games Evan was not in the lineup (take that how you will). Yes his defense was piss poor against McConnell but honestly that guy has killed us no matter who we have put on him in the past. He was much improved against the Raptors. Gotta roll the dice and see what we have.

[Rainwater]

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Evan's tweet definitely has me feeling some type of way...

Me thinks Evan has never been a fan of AG.

CoughAG40ptsvsNetspostgamecommentscough

I wonder if Evan’s tone would change if Lowry hurt his BFF Vuc.

I think you guys are reaching a bit here. Reporters asked Cliff, T-Ross, Evan and Wes the same questions about the foul.

Cliff, T-Ross and Evan all just dismissed it saying either they didn't get a good look, or it is just a part of basketball. They are all experienced in what the media was trying to do, while Wes is much greener.

You could feel the reporters perk up when Wes gave his answer, it was like 'finally, someone giving a real response, instead of a canned dismissal'

The vets know that making a comment like Wes did could come back to bite them in many ways (when we play Toronto again, if Wes ever gets traded and ends up on the same roster with a player he has said something bad against etc).

The safest thing to do is just say 'it is what it is', which is essentially what Evan said.

The lie is always juicier than the truth.

[Rainwater]

If Fultz isn't handed the drivers seat again soon, i'm pretty much done with this reason already. No reason to watch Augustine get us slaughtered any more. Fultz is great at getting open looks and putting pressure on defenses, while Augustine is good at dribbling the air out of the ball and he is probably the worst defender on the team.

I mean sure, after epic 2-9 shooting and getting owned by HOF TJ Mchonnell it's just so obvious he is ready for prime role.

Fultz has no impact on Magic defense and negative impact to offense. Not like DJ is any better, but not like he is much worst. Non of them is average level starting PG by today's standards.

I see where you are getting at pepe. As you feel that Fultz and JI have shown more enough to say that they won't be the players that many magic fans want them to be. Won't lie I might be getting that feeling as well.

But until they trade the vets and fully give the keys to the young guys, I won't concede. I am completely ok with a failed rebuild at the hands of JI and Fultz rather than the neutral position we are currently in. At least it shows that we have tried something different.

[Rainwater]

No need to overreact to this game, the Magic have proven themselves mediocre against most good teams and that is the worst position to be in for a franchise. Very disappointed in the management of this team to be trying to "compete" with this kind of roster. You're asking for mediocrity...but the reality is we are a below .500 team in the EAST...so we aren't really mediocre we are simply a bad team. This fake part of the season won't change obviously but next season needs to be a youth focused or tanking if you prefer.

Great post

[pepe1991]

If Fultz isn't handed the drivers seat again soon, i'm pretty much done with this reason already. No reason to watch Augustine get us slaughtered any more. Fultz is great at getting open looks and putting pressure on defenses, while Augustine is good at dribbling the air out of the ball and he is probably the worst defender on the team.

I mean sure, after epic 2-9 shooting and getting owned by HOF TJ Mchonnell it's just so obvious he is ready for prime role.

Fultz has no impact on Magic defense and negative impact to offense. Not like DJ is any better, but not like he is much worst. Non of them is average level starting PG by today's standards.

Honestly at this point, what do we have to lose? We are trying to win games but can't unless it is against teams that are just as mediocre or worse. At the same time, we aren't really trying to develop the young talent we do have. Markelle was in a really nice groove after the All-Star break and honestly was playing really good basketball in the games Evan was not in the lineup (take that how you will). Yes his defense was piss poor against McConnell but honestly that guy has killed us no matter who we have put on him in the past. He was much improved against the Raptors. Gotta roll the dice and see what we have.

He's still on min resctriction, that's objective reason why he is not playing more. But if we talk about finishing that game, he was as bad as DJ and objectivlly much worst than DJ against Pacers.
From what i expect, he'll be in starting lineup in playoffs.

Usage thing is whole different set of issues. Markelle Fultz, by offensive RPM, is 65th PG in NBA, with negative contribution. Set between Kriss Dunn and Emanuel Mudiay. Matter of fact both MCW and DJ are actually have better impact. DJ is horrific defender but to offense, his 0,06 OBMP is much higer than Fultz and his -1,29.

RPM is same story, he simply isn't positive contributor. By points added from shooting he has negative 46 value by BB reference.
You know it's bad when MCW, definition of inefficiency, has highrer TS% than him. 52% isn't terrible, but when you put in perspective all other date, it's clear that he simply isn't good offensive option. On limited usage.

And even if you want to force him into becomming bigger offensive option, what execlly he can do more? it's not like forcing him into 10 more outside shots will make him better. How many times he can attack off dribble ? Not much, that's a given for non shooting PG ( wink wink Elfrid Payton, Kriss Dunn, Rajon Rondo...) .
He'll always shine against teams that have horrific transition defense and who trade baskets. that's everything that never happends in playoffs and against serious teams. Going by his highest points in single game, 11 times out of 13 highest scoring games, he did it agianst teams with negative record.

For his development he has to learn more tricks than mid range pullup and dribbling into traffic and letting athletic gift bails him out. Or he'll be homless version of Rose whole his career. ( Rose before injuries)

[Skybox]

If Fultz isn't handed the drivers seat again soon, i'm pretty much done with this reason already. No reason to watch Augustine get us slaughtered any more. Fultz is great at getting open looks and putting pressure on defenses, while Augustine is good at dribbling the air out of the ball and he is probably the worst defender on the team.

I mean sure, after epic 2-9 shooting and getting owned by HOF TJ Mchonnell it's just so obvious he is ready for prime role.

Fultz has no impact on Magic defense and negative impact to offense. Not like DJ is any better, but not like he is much worst. Non of them is average level starting PG by today's standards.

I see where you are getting at pepe. As you feel that Fultz and JI have shown more enough to say that they won't be the players that many magic fans want them to be. Won't lie I might be getting that feeling as well.

But until they trade the vets and fully give the keys to the young guys, I won't concede. I am completely ok with a failed rebuild at the hands of JI and Fultz rather than the neutral position we are currently in. At least it shows that we have tried something different.

Exactly. I had hopes that Fultz would be the breakout player of the Bubble season. DJ is DJ and he's reliable to a fault. Fultz is worse some nights but he's got a real chance to go nuts and surprise people...DJ is the definition of ceiling. He did great last year but he should be the best backup PG in the league, not among the most "meh" starters. Not saying he's not a solid player, but this team desperately needs a new direction and Fultz is our best shot to spice it up and pull off a few (or go down in flames).We're a legit eighth seed, we should get swept by all accounts, our best shot is something unexpected and a surprise breakout (like TJ Warren).

[TheGlyde]

Me thinks Evan has never been a fan of AG.

CoughAG40ptsvsNetspostgamecommentscough

I wonder if Evan’s tone would change if Lowry hurt his BFF Vuc.

I think you guys are reaching a bit here. Reporters asked Cliff, T-Ross, Evan and Wes the same questions about the foul.

Cliff, T-Ross and Evan all just dismissed it saying either they didn't get a good look, or it is just a part of basketball. They are all experienced in what the media was trying to do, while Wes is much greener.

You could feel the reporters perk up when Wes gave his answer, it was like 'finally, someone giving a real response, instead of a canned dismissal'

The vets know that making a comment like Wes did could come back to bite them in many ways (when we play Toronto again, if Wes ever gets traded and ends up on the same roster with a player he has said something bad against etc).

The safest thing to do is just say 'it is what it is', which is essentially what Evan said.

I am not going to speak for Ned on this one (if they want to respond back to you on this, they can).

Speaking from my point of view on this Glyde, we are just going to have to agree to disagree. I am of the old mindset that with all the time these players spend together during the season and between those lines on the basketball court, they should want to have the attitude of fighting for one another, protect one another, and defend one another. Lowry's unnecessary reach while AG was already in the air just cost us our other talented forward for possibly the rest of this season as hamstring injuries are almost always unpredictable. What made the majority of the board mad is that not one teammate went up to check Lowry and defend AG. That to me shows that this team will not fight for one another when the going gets tough.

I agree with your observation on how the players addressed it. I just find it very soft with the exception of Wes. Cliff stating that he didn't get a good view of the play is pretty ridiculous to me considering the play happened right in front of the Magic bench. Also I am going to have to disagree on the "comments coming back to bite the Magic" angle. If we do happen to play Toronto again, we are already massive underdogs against them. Being coy about that flagrant foul is not going to increase our chances against them. As a matter of fact, these players should be getting tired of getting owned by Toronto for multiple seasons now.

That's how I feel about it.

Sorry to come back to this days later, I've been offline, but yeah I don't disagree much with what you said.

I totally agree I wish a couple of our players got in Lowry's face about it as it was a dangerous play and it has played out that way with us losing AG for at least one game and likely more.

Really, you could argue (and it happens in some sports on Australia), if you injure a player and he misses games, you should get suspended as well for at least some of those games. Whether he meant it or not, we lost AG because of his dumb foul.

20-30 years ago, it probably starts a brawl, or, after the play someone like Khem Birch floors Lowry on a screen or on his next drive, and then post game will tell the media "that's what you get"... that was kind of all I meant that those days are largely gone.

I remember after games back in the 90s, when Sam Vincent would blast Matt Guokas because Scott Skiles as getting his minutes, or when Terry Catledge would demand a trade to the press after a game... Slowly, over the years, all that now happens behind closed doors and not to the media, and that was what I meant here.

T-Ross, Cliff and Evan were probably all pissed, but in this day and age of being 'professional', they know the league doesn't want players to start confrontations, retaliate, clear benches or have brawls etc, so I think they will let that be known privately, rather than it become a clickbait headline "Fournier calls Lowry dirty player" etc.

Wes, either just hasn't been through as much 'media training' to give the same canned answers everyone else does nowadays, or, on the odd occasion, you do get a player who just doesn't care and will say whats on his mind anyway.