Constructing the Timberwolves rotation

[old school 34]

Why is the 5-out floor-spacing model important?

This is what happens when you run two-big lineups.




No driving lanes, no passing lanes.

If it was KAT or OK Express driving do you think those guys would have stopped them? They'd have taken the defender to the hoop and dunked on them plus the and one. Also a stop and pop ten footer was available to Culver or anybody else.

That’s assuming KAT or OK gained the same separation that Culver did in this situation. But they would then still face two defenders helping off Vonleh and Okogie because they’re not shooting threats. And even then the offense doesn’t want pull-up ten footers. It wants layups or threes. I think you and I have similar offensive philosophy - offense is played in the paint, not outside the three point line. In fact, I always say it’s an easy game from two feet away. But that’s not what the Wolves are currently looking for offensively. They want spacing, threats beyond the arc, cutters that take advantage of defensive lapses, ball movement until they get an uncontested three or a dunk. KAT is already a great post player, and they can run set plays to take advantage of that - when they want to. But nearly every touch in the post is contested - or worse - doubled. I’m a dinosaur. I loved McHale or Hakeem on the block with their incredible array of post moves, but that was long ago in a galaxy far, far away.

I really appreciated that brand of ball...how I grew up playing as well, but yes though days are definitely gone.

But to be fair...think more how KG is envisioning it is say your maybe playing 4/5 p-n-r in a 5 out similar to the photo to some degree...but you have say KAT and OK or even AG (another guy that some say shouldn't come via trade because his lack of 3pt shot)...but if they have the skills to be the ballhandler &/or screeener...then your other 3 spacing the floor are Dlo, Beasley, and Jake or 3pt shooter of choice? Your lanes will be there then...

The guys that like OK or AG see them in pnr action. Will that be able to happen everytime no....but if they have the ability to at least put it on the deck & be a significant threat even on a softer close out when on occasion they're the guy sitting in the corner it can work.

The problem last year was they were spacing with guys that couldn't do either. Everyone talks about how bad the 3 pt shooting was with that beginning of the year group, but we couldn't finish @ the rim either.

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[Klomp]

Look how checked out Wiggins is at the three point line. It’s no wonder the guy “defending” him felt comfortable actually having one foot in the paint.

To me, this demonstrates the lesson of the first half of the season - you need credible shooters that at least need a defender in the same area code.

I think the five out maximizes KAT. His outside shooting as a star big man is unheard of, and if we have five shooters (especially at PF), his shooting allows the floor to be stretched so much it creates easy driving lanes. The first few weeks of the year with Wiggins driving were beautiful, until the league caught on that most of our players didn’t need to be guarded out to the three point line.

First of all, that's not Wiggins. He's not even on the court here yet he's being blamed for poor effort and body language.

Full disclosure.....I picked a play that was actually a bit misleading in screenshot form. This was a play with the Wolves up 13 points with 20 seconds left in the game.....because of that, the defense actually didn't challenge Culver at the rim and the play resulted in a dunk.

But I believe the point is the same. I'm looking specifically at Vonleh's man. There's no threat to the defense there that he's concerned about. Put someone like Okongwu in the same position and the result would be the same. At least someone like Aaron Gordon would have the threat to attack the rim.

[shrink]

My bad. Vonleh. He shot 20% 3P% last year, 31% for this career. I don’t blame his defender for playing off him.

[Klomp]

My bad. Vonleh. He shot 20% 3P% last year, 31% for this career. I don’t blame his defender for playing off him.

But that's my point exactly. What's a guy gonna do when it's Okongwu out there? Unless he's radically worked on his shot, people aren't going to respect it...thereby clogging the lane.

[KGdaBom]

Why is the 5-out floor-spacing model important?

This is what happens when you run two-big lineups.




No driving lanes, no passing lanes.

If it was KAT or OK Express driving do you think those guys would have stopped them? They'd have taken the defender to the hoop and dunked on them plus the and one. Also a stop and pop ten footer was available to Culver or anybody else.

That’s assuming KAT or OK gained the same separation that Culver did in this situation. But they would then still face two defenders helping off Vonleh and Okogie because they’re not shooting threats. And even then the offense doesn’t want pull-up ten footers. It wants layups or threes. I think you and I have similar offensive philosophy - offense is played in the paint, not outside the three point line. In fact, I always say it’s an easy game from two feet away. But that’s not what the Wolves are currently looking for offensively. They want spacing, threats beyond the arc, cutters that take advantage of defensive lapses, ball movement until they get an uncontested three or a dunk. KAT is already a great post player, and they can run set plays to take advantage of that - when they want to. But nearly every touch in the post is contested - or worse - doubled. I’m a dinosaur. I loved McHale or Hakeem on the block with their incredible array of post moves, but that was long ago in a galaxy far, far away.

A stop and pop 10 footer isn't much harder than a layup for professional basketball players. I would love to have the defense set up that way against us. It would be high percentage shots all day long.

[KGdaBom]

If it was KAT or OK Express driving do you think those guys would have stopped them? They'd have taken the defender to the hoop and dunked on them plus the and one. Also a stop and pop ten footer was available to Culver or anybody else.

That’s assuming KAT or OK gained the same separation that Culver did in this situation. But they would then still face two defenders helping off Vonleh and Okogie because they’re not shooting threats. And even then the offense doesn’t want pull-up ten footers. It wants layups or threes. I think you and I have similar offensive philosophy - offense is played in the paint, not outside the three point line. In fact, I always say it’s an easy game from two feet away. But that’s not what the Wolves are currently looking for offensively. They want spacing, threats beyond the arc, cutters that take advantage of defensive lapses, ball movement until they get an uncontested three or a dunk. KAT is already a great post player, and they can run set plays to take advantage of that - when they want to. But nearly every touch in the post is contested - or worse - doubled. I’m a dinosaur. I loved McHale or Hakeem on the block with their incredible array of post moves, but that was long ago in a galaxy far, far away.

I really appreciated that brand of ball...how I grew up playing as well, but yes though days are definitely gone.

But to be fair...think more how KG is envisioning it is say your maybe playing 4/5 p-n-r in a 5 out similar to the photo to some degree...but you have say KAT and OK or even AG (another guy that some say shouldn't come via trade because his lack of 3pt shot)...but if they have the skills to be the ballhandler &/or screeener...then your other 3 spacing the floor are Dlo, Beasley, and Jake or 3pt shooter of choice? Your lanes will be there then...

The guys that like OK or AG see them in pnr action. Will that be able to happen everytime no....but if they have the ability to at least put it on the deck & be a significant threat even on a softer close out when on occasion they're the guy sitting in the corner it can work.

The problem last year was they were spacing with guys that couldn't do either. Everyone talks about how bad the 3 pt shooting was with that beginning of the year group, but we couldn't finish @ the rim either.

Sent from my SM-G973U using RealGM mobile app

Based on the picture provided here if it's KAT or OK Express on the drive instead of Culver that's going to end up in a dunk and one. Culver can just stop and pop. Easy ten footer. I would love to see that D being played against us.

[KGdaBom]

Look how checked out Wiggins is at the three point line. It’s no wonder the guy “defending” him felt comfortable actually having one foot in the paint.

To me, this demonstrates the lesson of the first half of the season - you need credible shooters that at least need a defender in the same area code.

I think the five out maximizes KAT. His outside shooting as a star big man is unheard of, and if we have five shooters (especially at PF), his shooting allows the floor to be stretched so much it creates easy driving lanes. The first few weeks of the year with Wiggins driving were beautiful, until the league caught on that most of our players didn’t need to be guarded out to the three point line.

First of all, that's not Wiggins. He's not even on the court here yet he's being blamed for poor effort and body language.

Full disclosure.....I picked a play that was actually a bit misleading in screenshot form. This was a play with the Wolves up 13 points with 20 seconds left in the game.....because of that, the defense actually didn't challenge Culver at the rim and the play resulted in a dunk.

But I believe the point is the same. I'm looking specifically at Vonleh's man. There's no threat to the defense there that he's concerned about. Put someone like Okongwu in the same position and the result would be the same. At least someone like Aaron Gordon would have the threat to attack the rim.

I stand by my statement if that's either KAT or OK driving it's going to be a dunk. We've got minimum three good 3 point shooters on the floor possibly more. I like our chances against that D.

[KGdaBom]

My bad. Vonleh. He shot 20% 3P% last year, 31% for this career. I don’t blame his defender for playing off him.

But that's my point exactly. What's a guy gonna do when it's Okongwu out there? Unless he's radically worked on his shot, people aren't going to respect it...thereby clogging the lane.

I don't buy the thinking that we have to have 5 3 point shooters on the court at all times. 3 should be enough. Man do I hate the 3 point shot. What a joke it has made of the game. Still it does not require 5 3 point shooters at all times. Not even 4.

[Klomp]

My bad. Vonleh. He shot 20% 3P% last year, 31% for this career. I don’t blame his defender for playing off him.

But that's my point exactly. What's a guy gonna do when it's Okongwu out there? Unless he's radically worked on his shot, people aren't going to respect it...thereby clogging the lane.

I don't buy the thinking that we have to have 5 3 point shooters on the court at all times. 3 should be enough. Man do I hate the 3 point shot.

Sounds like a bit of bias in that opinion....

[KGdaBom]

But that's my point exactly. What's a guy gonna do when it's Okongwu out there? Unless he's radically worked on his shot, people aren't going to respect it...thereby clogging the lane.

I don't buy the thinking that we have to have 5 3 point shooters on the court at all times. 3 should be enough. Man do I hate the 3 point shot.

Sounds like a bit of bias in that opinion....

It's flat out ridiculous. Which other sport gives bonus points for distance? Hockey no, Baseball no, football no, Soccer no, ............

[Klomp]

It's flat out ridiculous. Which other sport gives bonus points for distance? Hockey no, Baseball no, football no, Soccer no, ............

Ummm....it may not always directly result in more runs but a triple is more than a single and a home run is farther than a double, so there kinda is a bonus for hitting it farther.

[KGdaBom]

It's flat out ridiculous. Which other sport gives bonus points for distance? Hockey no, Baseball no, football no, Soccer no, ............

Ummm....it may not always directly result in more runs but a triple is more than a single and a home run is farther than a double, so there kinda is a bonus for hitting it farther.

From what distance does crossing the plate in baseball go up to 1.5 or 2 points? From what distance does a goal in soccer go up from 1 to 2 points? From what distance does scoring a TD in football count more than 6 points?
No bonus. That's ridiculous to say. A person scoring from the batters box on a home run counts one run just like scoring from third on a walk. A 99 yard TD run is 6 points same as a one yard TD run. A record setting homer of 600 feet counts no more than a what is it a 200 foot pop fly to right at Skankee Stadium.

I hate the three. It will never be removed, but I hate it. I find Al Jefferson Post moves much more exciting to watch than Gorgui making a corner 3. Some people see it differently.

[Mattya]

It's flat out ridiculous. Which other sport gives bonus points for distance? Hockey no, Baseball no, football no, Soccer no, ............

Ummm....it may not always directly result in more runs but a triple is more than a single and a home run is farther than a double, so there kinda is a bonus for hitting it farther.

From what distance does crossing the plate in baseball go up to 1.5 or 2 points? From what distance does a goal in soccer go up from 1 to 2 points? From what distance does scoring a TD in football count more than 6 points?
No bonus. That's ridiculous to say. A person scoring from the batters box on a home run counts one run just like scoring from third on a walk. A 99 yard TD run is 6 points same as a one yard TD run. A record setting homer of 600 feet counts no more than a what is it a 200 foot pop fly to right at Skankee Stadium.

I hate the three. It will never be removed, but I hate it. I find Al Jefferson Post moves much more exciting to watch than Gorgui making a corner 3. Some people see it differently.

Football
Touchdown:6 points
Field goal: 3 points
Extra point:1 Point
2 point conversion:2 points

Why are these things awarded different points when this is two different combinations of essentially the same thing? By your logic with the NBA 3 point line. The 2 point conversion should be 6 points and the extra point should be 3 or the other way around. These are just as arbitrary point systems as the NBA has.

[shrink]

Watch on YouTube

[KGdaBom]

Ummm....it may not always directly result in more runs but a triple is more than a single and a home run is farther than a double, so there kinda is a bonus for hitting it farther.

From what distance does crossing the plate in baseball go up to 1.5 or 2 points? From what distance does a goal in soccer go up from 1 to 2 points? From what distance does scoring a TD in football count more than 6 points?
No bonus. That's ridiculous to say. A person scoring from the batters box on a home run counts one run just like scoring from third on a walk. A 99 yard TD run is 6 points same as a one yard TD run. A record setting homer of 600 feet counts no more than a what is it a 200 foot pop fly to right at Skankee Stadium.

I hate the three. It will never be removed, but I hate it. I find Al Jefferson Post moves much more exciting to watch than Gorgui making a corner 3. Some people see it differently.

Football
Touchdown:6 points
Field goal: 3 points
Extra point:1 Point
2 point conversion:2 points

Why are these things awarded different points when this is two different combinations of essentially the same thing? By your logic with the NBA 3 point line. The 2 point conversion should be 6 points and the extra point should be 3 or the other way around. These are just as arbitrary point systems as the NBA has.

A touchdown is a touchdown a FG is not a TD
An Extra point is not a FG or a touchdown. A two point conversion is not an extra point a FG or a Touchdown. A three point basket is just a basket. You know you are talking nonsense just to argue Mattya.
The ABA made up this gimmick in a desperate attempt to compete with the NBA.

[KGdaBom]

Watch on YouTube

That's where the 3 point shot belongs in non real basketball games.

[Klomp]

What about golf? Everyone essentially does the same thing and gets the ball in the hole, why are they awarded different point values?

[Jedzz]

The 3 has been around since 1979. Probable a number of reasons it never became what is is now before now. Today how the shooter is protected, turning a 3 into a 4 is really damaging and it doesn't take much. Players actually growing up practicing the shot, vs it just becoming a thing the very year Larry Bird and Magic joined the league. Funny how quickly Bird took to it anyway. Teams being so obsessed with physical anomolies before actual shooting skills in drafts. Nobody bright enough to realize that a certain percentage of 3s is enough to keep up with higher probability possessions of two at a time.

I think the and1 is the great equalizer and teams with a player great at drawing fouls while also great at finishing, or great at getting refs to make calls for them is one way to keep up wiith a good 3pt shooting team. But if you focus on your roster and getting 4 to 5 capable 3pt shooters out there at all times that sounds like a great plan to me. It doesn't have to mean that's all they can do. We know they need to be able to threaten to drive the net and finight with layups and dunks as well. We know this offense will be seeing some pick n roll, maybe pick and pop?

[Mattya]

From what distance does crossing the plate in baseball go up to 1.5 or 2 points? From what distance does a goal in soccer go up from 1 to 2 points? From what distance does scoring a TD in football count more than 6 points?
No bonus. That's ridiculous to say. A person scoring from the batters box on a home run counts one run just like scoring from third on a walk. A 99 yard TD run is 6 points same as a one yard TD run. A record setting homer of 600 feet counts no more than a what is it a 200 foot pop fly to right at Skankee Stadium.

I hate the three. It will never be removed, but I hate it. I find Al Jefferson Post moves much more exciting to watch than Gorgui making a corner 3. Some people see it differently.

Football
Touchdown:6 points
Field goal: 3 points
Extra point:1 Point
2 point conversion:2 points

Why are these things awarded different points when this is two different combinations of essentially the same thing? By your logic with the NBA 3 point line. The 2 point conversion should be 6 points and the extra point should be 3 or the other way around. These are just as arbitrary point systems as the NBA has.

A touchdown is a touchdown a FG is not a TD
An Extra point is not a FG or a touchdown. A two point conversion is not an extra point a FG or a Touchdown. A three point basket is just a basket. You know you are talking nonsense just to argue Mattya.
The ABA made up this gimmick in a desperate attempt to compete with the NBA.

A field goal and extra point are exactly the same, as are a touchdown and a two point conversion. I’m not trying to argue just seems like you are holding the two sports to different standards of arbitrary scoring for some reason.

[King Malta]

Football
Touchdown:6 points
Field goal: 3 points
Extra point:1 Point
2 point conversion:2 points

Why are these things awarded different points when this is two different combinations of essentially the same thing? By your logic with the NBA 3 point line. The 2 point conversion should be 6 points and the extra point should be 3 or the other way around. These are just as arbitrary point systems as the NBA has.

A touchdown is a touchdown a FG is not a TD
An Extra point is not a FG or a touchdown. A two point conversion is not an extra point a FG or a Touchdown. A three point basket is just a basket. You know you are talking nonsense just to argue Mattya.
The ABA made up this gimmick in a desperate attempt to compete with the NBA.

A field goal and extra point are exactly the same, as are a touchdown and a two point conversion. I’m not trying to argue just seems like you are holding the two sports to different standards of arbitrary scoring for some reason.

I think KG's point is more around the arbitrary scoring leading to a shift in the way the game is played, based on different scoring for almost identical outcomes/actions.

A better comparison perhaps would be if the NFL awarded 8 points for a passing touchdown and 6 points for a run, leading to teams leaning heavily on passing play as a result.

I don't agree with him necessarily, but I think his overall point is being a little misunderstood/misrepresented.