Celtics General Thread 2019-20, "Re-Start"

[keevsnick1]

The disconnect tho I feel is that the argument is that contracts like browns compounded with Hayward and kemba have killed our flexibility moving forward. That’s true IMO. The brown element is just that he never is going to be A superstar or a perennial all star
We r entering year 5 with Jaylen. He’s made a huge leap this year but I don’t think he’s a superstar or close to a perennial all star

Except its just not true, your opinion or cave's aside its just factually not. AT the very least you could dump Browns contract for absolutely nothing and literally every team would take him. So he's not at all hurting your flexibility. Again, it is clearly better to have his contract then to not because right now you could extract positive value for his contract.

And I'm also not willing to write off that he will be a multi time all star, he was close this season. Like 5+ all star appearances for his career seems totally possible to me.

Neither is yours. You can be willing Or not willing to write off whatever you want, god bless you. Year 5 soon for Jaylen not 1 all star game and your predicting 5+ throughout his career....ok. Doubtful.

Not hurting our flexibility? Tatum is getting a max soon, Hayward is opting in for 32 and kemba is on a max for the remaining years with a gimpy knee. He’s an undersized pg with knee issues that’s 30+. This where you choose to place your championship faith ? Not me. Jaylen is overrated here. It’s ok. we’ve seen this before IT, Bradley, Jefferson, the list goes on and on.

Where’s the maneuverability to get a superstar? Trading Tatum is not an option- defeats the whole purpose. how do we even add to the bench with that much salary obligation in the offseason for an actual difference maker? yet you say there’s no issue in terms of flexibility? Hayward is a good playe, kemba is a good player and good players get you good results- 55 wins and an ECF finals visit where we get used like a door mat.......aren’t we all about banners? I’m confused.

Our best chance at a ring is putting all our chips in on Tatum and hoping and praying he becomes a top 5 player or that Jaylen Somehow takes some astronomical leap (which I hope he does, I root for the team to be successful).

Look man I'm sorry if i came across a little strong here, all i'm saying is the following statement you made just isn't factually accurate:

"The disconnect tho I feel is that the argument is that contracts like browns compounded with Hayward and kemba have killed our flexibility moving forward."

I get including Hayward and Kemba in that list, but you could trade Brown right now for value so by definition he can't be included in that list.

There are a lot of way's Brown could help us down the line. We could package him with picks for a superior player. He could take another step forward and be so good we don't wnat to trade him. We could trade him for a high lottery pick. Ect. Having Brown on his current contract is better than not having Brown. It just is.

And the All Star thing is meaningless. Kawhi didn't make one till his 5th year. Jimmy Butler was in his 4th year but 2 years older than Jaylen. Same with Siakam this year. Brown was in the conversation this year. So ya, I don't know if i'd bet that Jaylen makes five in his career but it wouldn't shock me either. And the thing is he doesn't even have to, he is still worth that deal if he never gets much better.

[keevsnick1]

Anyway Jaylen argument aside there are a number of interesting games for Celtics fans today.

LAC vs POR with Kawhi resting, C's fan want POR to catch and pass MEM in the standings for draft pick reasons.

LAL vs IND with Lebron and Davis playing, implications for the 6th seed with IND and PHI tied right now. IND has tied breaker so PHI needs to finish ahead of them to get the 5th seed. I'd rather the C's play IND.

PHO vs MIA. PHO still has an outside shot of catching MEM, but they basically have to win out. MIA losing I believe locks the C's into 3rd.

[Curmudgeon]

If you think about it, the Celtics are built much like the clippers: two star wings, a defensive bulldog, a scoring guard and center by committee.

One difference is that the Celtics start their high scoring guard (Kemba) and bring Smart off the bench. The Clips start Beverley and bring Lou Williams off the bench.
A second difference is that the Clips are more experienced, not only the starters, but also guys like Morris, Patterson and Jamychal Green. A third difference is that the Celtics do not have a sharpshooter like Landry Shamut on the second unit. Hopefully Langford can grow into that role, and TimeLord can give some of the same energy that the Clips get from Harrell.

[Floody100]

This “4th option” stuff is a joke. Hayward is behind Jaylen offensively at this point and picks his spots. Kemba has been hurt or resting a fair number of games this season and especially lately when Jaylen has been excelling. Was Jaylen the 4th option the other night when he singlehandedly slammed the door shut on Portland?

Just be honest — this argument is really agenda-driven as unfortunately it often is on this board. A while ago some posters aggressively argued that Jaylen was overpaid and that it would somehow create problems for us in the future. Now that he is kicking ass for basically the entire season these bogus excuses have to be created to sustain and defend the agenda and are dragged out every time people get excited about Jaylen. It’s really that simple.

The part I’d like to know from those against Jaylen and his deal is what would you have done? Just let him walk and assume we’ll sign someone better for that money with the cap space? That almost always requires an overpay to acquire someone on the downside (provided you can even get them). Look no further than the complaints in this thread about Kemba and Hayward’s salaries. It also makes us worse in the near term and is bad for morale.

We got Jaylen at a solid price and he is currently on a trajectory to overperform it. Second guessing because of COVID (which no one could have reasonably been expected to factor in) is also not fair.

As stated endlessly, I would have sucked it up and given Jaylen that same contract. It just isn't the win people think it is, and emblematic of the death of our rebuild.

FWIW, I have always been denigrated as an agenda guy, but the agenda is championships. And without fail, I have ended up proven correct on these major debates over a 12-year timeframe. Period.

blah blah blah ...
Same dribble you said a year ago & Jaylen keeps proving you wrong. Stop with the BS. We know you don’t like Jaylen as a player considering you have never once said anything positive about him this season (even when he has a great game).

Oh btw, no one cares about your track record.

[Ernest]

Anyone wanna talk Rob Williams? Is it just me or has he looked really good the last 2 games? Smart loves to throw those Lobs and Rob can jump. I wonder if teams just don't have hm scouted or if that is something we can use in the playoffs. Theis and Kanter have both played well in my opinion so it's not about knocking them. But maybe Williams could be better than both of them in time. If he can keep this good play up for the rest of the season games that would be huge for us.

On the flip side to this is Kanter not playing or getting minutes cut. I feel like Theis starts no matter what (unless we go small and put in Smart of Semi) but he is not the more traditional big like the Kanter and Willams. We need at least 1 traditional big playing well to have a good run. I wonder how Brad will manage exploring what we have with RWilliams while keeping Kanter happy.

[bucknersrevenge]

Anyone wanna talk Rob Williams? Is it just me or has he looked really good the last 2 games? Smart loves to throw those Lobs and Rob can jump. I wonder if teams just don't have hm scouted or if that is something we can use in the playoffs. Theis and Kanter have both played well in my opinion so it's not about knocking them. But maybe Williams could be better than both of them in time. If he can keep this good play up for the rest of the season games that would be huge for us.

On the flip side to this is Kanter not playing or getting minutes cut. I feel like Theis starts no matter what (unless we go small and put in Smart of Semi) but he is not the more traditional big like the Kanter and Willams. We need at least 1 traditional big playing well to have a good run. I wonder how Brad will manage exploring what we have with RWilliams while keeping Kanter happy.

No. It's a matchup thing. The Raps who are devastating with the PnR are a bad matchup for Kanter. I expect we'll see Kanter in the next game at some point against Vucevic and definitely if we end up playing Philly in the playoffs.

[Curmudgeon]

I think we will see less and less of Kanter as the season goes on. Sure, they will need Kanter's bulk at times, but I would love to see a lineup with Timelord and Theis on the floor together.

[Darth Celtic]

Lot of dumb going in. Boston will never sign a top five player in free agency. That means JB contract is not preventing getting top tier talent. Neither are Gordon and kemba. We can get lucky and draft one. Unlikely out of the lotto. Or we can flip players listed above in large contracts along with future assets when stars shake lose. I think the financial crisis in the league may give us our best chance since kg.

Sent from my moto g(7) using RealGM mobile app

[MagicBagley18]

Except its just not true, your opinion or cave's aside its just factually not. AT the very least you could dump Browns contract for absolutely nothing and literally every team would take him. So he's not at all hurting your flexibility. Again, it is clearly better to have his contract then to not because right now you could extract positive value for his contract.

And I'm also not willing to write off that he will be a multi time all star, he was close this season. Like 5+ all star appearances for his career seems totally possible to me.

Neither is yours. You can be willing Or not willing to write off whatever you want, god bless you. Year 5 soon for Jaylen not 1 all star game and your predicting 5+ throughout his career....ok. Doubtful.

Not hurting our flexibility? Tatum is getting a max soon, Hayward is opting in for 32 and kemba is on a max for the remaining years with a gimpy knee. He’s an undersized pg with knee issues that’s 30+. This where you choose to place your championship faith ? Not me. Jaylen is overrated here. It’s ok. we’ve seen this before IT, Bradley, Jefferson, the list goes on and on.

Where’s the maneuverability to get a superstar? Trading Tatum is not an option- defeats the whole purpose. how do we even add to the bench with that much salary obligation in the offseason for an actual difference maker? yet you say there’s no issue in terms of flexibility? Hayward is a good playe, kemba is a good player and good players get you good results- 55 wins and an ECF finals visit where we get used like a door mat.......aren’t we all about banners? I’m confused.

Our best chance at a ring is putting all our chips in on Tatum and hoping and praying he becomes a top 5 player or that Jaylen Somehow takes some astronomical leap (which I hope he does, I root for the team to be successful).

Look man I'm sorry if i came across a little strong here, all i'm saying is the following statement you made just isn't factually accurate:

"The disconnect tho I feel is that the argument is that contracts like browns compounded with Hayward and kemba have killed our flexibility moving forward."

I get including Hayward and Kemba in that list, but you could trade Brown right now for value so by definition he can't be included in that list.

There are a lot of way's Brown could help us down the line. We could package him with picks for a superior player. He could take another step forward and be so good we don't wnat to trade him. We could trade him for a high lottery pick. Ect. Having Brown on his current contract is better than not having Brown. It just is.

And the All Star thing is meaningless. Kawhi didn't make one till his 5th year. Jimmy Butler was in his 4th year but 2 years older than Jaylen. Same with Siakam this year. Brown was in the conversation this year. So ya, I don't know if i'd bet that Jaylen makes five in his career but it wouldn't shock me either. And the thing is he doesn't even have to, he is still worth that deal if he never gets much better.

Nah buddy no need to apologize, you’re good....just differing view points no worries. We all want the same thing just different philosophy’s for sure

[zoyathedestroya]

Random stat observation:
JB-JT-Gordo on the floor together last season had an Offensive Rating of 109.8 pts per 100 possessions, good for 48th percentile.**
JB-JT-Gordo on the floor together this season has an Offensive Rating of 118.5 pts per 100 possessions, good for 97th percentile.

**Without Kyrie & Horford, Offensive Rating of 115.8, good for 90th percentile.

Possible factors in improvement(?):
• Kyrie vs. Kemba
• Less ball-stoppers
• The Jays taking significant leaps
• Just more reps and familiarity playing together
• Gordo getting healthier though he still missed time due to injuries
• More offensive responsibilities for all three (no Horford; wing-centric)

[themoneyteam2]

Read on Twitter

[zoyathedestroya]

More Lineup Stats:

The Celtics starting lineup of Kemba-JB-Hayward-JT-Theis has an offensive rating of 120.4 pts/100 poss, good for 99th percentile.
Replace Brown with Marcus Smart and that tweaked lineup has a defensive rating of 96.3 pts/100 poss, good for 100th percentile.

Both lineups have a net rating of 15.0+, good for 99th percentile.

Source: cleaningtheglass.com

[bucknersrevenge]

Over a year ago he said this. 2 for 2 so far.

Read on Twitter

?s=20

[zoyathedestroya]

I would've been thrilled with "I'm ending a pandemic." as his third goal/promise, but a title would be cool too, I guess.

[zoyathedestroya]

Fun Fact: In the last 10 seasons, only three teams outside of the top 2 seed in either conference have made the NBA Finals -- Celtics in 2010 (4th seed), Mavericks in 2011 (3rd seed), Cavs in 2018 (4th seed). Only once did such a team won it all -- 2011 Mavs.

Only conclusion I can come to is the Celtics are winning the NBA Championship as the 3rd seed in October.

[Curmudgeon]

Fun Fact: In the last 10 seasons, only three teams outside of the top 2 seed in either conference have made the NBA Finals -- Celtics in 2010 (4th seed), Mavericks in 2011 (3rd seed), Cavs in 2018 (4th seed). Only once did such a team won it all -- 2011 Mavs.

Only conclusion I can come to is the Celtics are winning the NBA Championship as the 3rd seed in October.

They were the 4th seed in 1969, when they made Jack Kent Cook eat his balloons.

[Captain_Caveman]

This “4th option” stuff is a joke. Hayward is behind Jaylen offensively at this point and picks his spots. Kemba has been hurt or resting a fair number of games this season and especially lately when Jaylen has been excelling. Was Jaylen the 4th option the other night when he singlehandedly slammed the door shut on Portland?

Just be honest — this argument is really agenda-driven as unfortunately it often is on this board. A while ago some posters aggressively argued that Jaylen was overpaid and that it would somehow create problems for us in the future. Now that he is kicking ass for basically the entire season these bogus excuses have to be created to sustain and defend the agenda and are dragged out every time people get excited about Jaylen. It’s really that simple.

The part I’d like to know from those against Jaylen and his deal is what would you have done? Just let him walk and assume we’ll sign someone better for that money with the cap space? That almost always requires an overpay to acquire someone on the downside (provided you can even get them). Look no further than the complaints in this thread about Kemba and Hayward’s salaries. It also makes us worse in the near term and is bad for morale.

We got Jaylen at a solid price and he is currently on a trajectory to overperform it. Second guessing because of COVID (which no one could have reasonably been expected to factor in) is also not fair.

As stated endlessly, I would have sucked it up and given Jaylen that same contract. It just isn't the win people think it is, and emblematic of the death of our rebuild.

FWIW, I have always been denigrated as an agenda guy, but the agenda is championships. And without fail, I have ended up proven correct on these major debates over a 12-year timeframe. Period.

blah blah blah ...
Same dribble you said a year ago & Jaylen keeps proving you wrong. Stop with the BS. We know you don’t like Jaylen as a player considering you have never once said anything positive about him this season (even when he has a great game).

Oh btw, no one cares about your track record.

First of all, you consistently get a little personal with me over my sports takes. I will deal with that because of board rules, but just noting it.

And the track record definitely matters, because I heard the same **** on other debates. I was an IT "hater" because I didn't think he was a franchise building block. People tried to take victory laps on me for two **** years and, like you, took shots at my person for being stubborn about not admitting that I was wrong. Except I never was, as we now know. Ditto for wanting to tank for better players than Smart and Rozier. Ditto for thinking David Lee was a washed up slob, and for DeMarcus Cousins being an overrated cancer who was in no way worth a Nets pick, never mind 2 or 3 of them. And for thinking that you trade a young Al Jefferson for a prime Kevin Garnett 100 times out of 100.

So yeah, the track record matters a little bit. Despite routinely getting called out as a hater of this or that, for over 13 years and thousands of posts, I have ended up close to 100% correct close to 100% of the time on debates of significance here.

I am not a Jaylen hater. I have long said he was the correct pick at that spot in that draft. I routinely vote him for VCs, which you can read yourself. But given the limitations of his game, I am a little lukewarm on him getting that kind of money, which IMO only happened because of the utter weakness of the upcoming FA class. In terms of our ability to build a championship team, which is literally the only thing us longtime Celtic fans give a **** about, we overpaid for him when we were already overpaying Hayward and Kemba.

I feel like a lot of folks are here for things other than championships, and that is fine. But no, I am never going to see eye to eye with them.

[Captain_Caveman]

Except its just not true, your opinion or cave's aside its just factually not. AT the very least you could dump Browns contract for absolutely nothing and literally every team would take him. So he's not at all hurting your flexibility. Again, it is clearly better to have his contract then to not because right now you could extract positive value for his contract.

And I'm also not willing to write off that he will be a multi time all star, he was close this season. Like 5+ all star appearances for his career seems totally possible to me.

Neither is yours. You can be willing Or not willing to write off whatever you want, god bless you. Year 5 soon for Jaylen not 1 all star game and your predicting 5+ throughout his career....ok. Doubtful.

Not hurting our flexibility? Tatum is getting a max soon, Hayward is opting in for 32 and kemba is on a max for the remaining years with a gimpy knee. He’s an undersized pg with knee issues that’s 30+. This where you choose to place your championship faith ? Not me. Jaylen is overrated here. It’s ok. we’ve seen this before IT, Bradley, Jefferson, the list goes on and on.

Where’s the maneuverability to get a superstar? Trading Tatum is not an option- defeats the whole purpose. how do we even add to the bench with that much salary obligation in the offseason for an actual difference maker? yet you say there’s no issue in terms of flexibility? Hayward is a good playe, kemba is a good player and good players get you good results- 55 wins and an ECF finals visit where we get used like a door mat.......aren’t we all about banners? I’m confused.

Our best chance at a ring is putting all our chips in on Tatum and hoping and praying he becomes a top 5 player or that Jaylen Somehow takes some astronomical leap (which I hope he does, I root for the team to be successful).

Look man I'm sorry if i came across a little strong here, all i'm saying is the following statement you made just isn't factually accurate:

"The disconnect tho I feel is that the argument is that contracts like browns compounded with Hayward and kemba have killed our flexibility moving forward."

I get including Hayward and Kemba in that list, but you could trade Brown right now for value so by definition he can't be included in that list.

There are a lot of way's Brown could help us down the line. We could package him with picks for a superior player. He could take another step forward and be so good we don't wnat to trade him. We could trade him for a high lottery pick. Ect. Having Brown on his current contract is better than not having Brown. It just is.

And the All Star thing is meaningless. Kawhi didn't make one till his 5th year. Jimmy Butler was in his 4th year but 2 years older than Jaylen. Same with Siakam this year. Brown was in the conversation this year. So ya, I don't know if i'd bet that Jaylen makes five in his career but it wouldn't shock me either. And the thing is he doesn't even have to, he is still worth that deal if he never gets much better.

I'm not putting this all on Jaylen, but don't agree with a lot of what you are saying. You definitely aren't getting a high lottery pick for the guy, unless the draft is straight garbage. And being able to liquidate Jaylen for cap relief and a couple of non-top 10 picks isn't "value". We are also not going to be able to package him with a couple of non-top 10 picks and get a better player.

Definitely agree the All-Star thing is meaningless. Being in the All-Star "conversation" in the East during a season that a lot of stars were injured during (KD, Kyrie, Dipo) is not that big a deal, and doesn't make you a near top 25 player by itself. He might slip through for an All-Star appearance at some point in his career, but five is definitely wishful thinking from where we are sitting. There are just so many guys you can say could that about, with a majority of them in the Western Conference.

Here are 60 other players that could easily be All-Stars next season. I'd take like 40 of them over Jaylen, given the choice.

East: Tatum, Simmons, Embiid, Durant, Kyrie, Oladipo, Siakam, Trae Young, Lowry, Giannis, Butler, Abedayo, Kemba, LaVine, Hayward, Beal, Middleton, John Collins, TJ Warren, RJ Barrett, Vucevic, Tobias Harris, Brogdon, Myles Turner.

West: Curry, Klay, Dray, Kawhi, PG13, LeBron, AD, Harden, Westbrook, Luka, Porzingis, Jokic, Murray, Booker, Ayton, Ingram, JRue, Zion, Harrell, Lou Will, Morant, Jaren Jackson, Towns, DLo, SGA, Gallo, Lillard, McCollum, Nurkic, Fox, Hield, Bagley, Derozan, Mitchell, Gobert, Bogdanovic.

[zoyathedestroya]

In clutch situations (under five minutes of 4Q and OT, score within 5 pts), for his career (regular season & playoffs combined), Jayson Tatum is shooting 51.93% from the field, 38.3% from 3, and 81.11% from the FT line.

[Slax]

This has been rehashed a lot, but with any ongoing arguments over Jaylen, the goalposts moved a ton from where we were over the off-season close to a year ago. We've basically had this sliding discussion that started as "Jaylen is overpaid because Ainge could have waited a year and given him less money and still retained him" to "Jaylen is overpaid because he earns more than average for a player as good as him at his position" to "Jaylen is overpaid because paying him means you can't afford a better player".

The former two are just clearly false at this point, and I don't see many people still making those points, but if anyone is still sticking by them is either completely deluded about the size of modern contracts or arguing in bad faith. A lot of people who argue they *never* made these arguments are having some... memory difficulties. I get it, it sucks to be wrong, I thought Brown wouldn't live up to the contract and I'm embarrassed about being wrong too.

The third is basically premised on the fact that a lot of teams that become champions do so by *dramatically* underpaying at least one or two (and often more) players, almost always from one of four scenarios: rookie contract for a star player who develops early, max contract for a superstar player who is worth more than max, player breaks out or recovers from injury after signing a contract based on playing worse in the past, or changes to revenue or CBA result in large changes to the market. This is what made the Warriors such a formidable team for so long. But if you try to build your team by only retaining players who fit this mold as a team strategy, you're going to make your team an unattractive destination and lose a lot of good players who *can* be contributors on a championship team unless you're VERY lucky, so I'm pretty skeptical of complaints about Brown's contract based on the premise that he is only earning a few million less than he would have on the market instead of ten million less. And if you're at this point saying "well I would have given him the contract because it was the only choice we had, but I would have preferred to give him less or spend the same amount of money on a better player because then we would have had more opportunities to improve our team", then yeah, me too, in fact it would have been nice if we could have constructed a roster consisting entirely of 15 all-NBA players playing on vet minimum contracts lol.