ImageImageImageImageImage

Democratic Primary Thread: The Deuce

Moderators: j4remi, HerSports85, NoLayupRule, GONYK, Jeff Van Gully, dakomish23, Deeeez Knicks, mpharris36

HarthorneWingo
RealGM
Posts: 97,546
And1: 62,686
Joined: May 16, 2005

Re: Democratic Primary Thread: The Deuce 

Post#861 » by HarthorneWingo » Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:20 pm

GONYK wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:One final point and then I'm done. I think you neolibs will like this.

I'm even open to the idea that even if you DO NOT live in swing state, like NY, we should all vote for Biden because we need to run up the score when Trump challenges the election.

Before, my strategy was that if you didn't live in a swing state, you could afford to vote for a third candidate in protest. I'm scrapping that for this election. We need to run up the score.

See? I can compromise.

BYAAAAAAAAAAH!

Image


I am a good person! :lol:
Clyde_Style
RealGM
Posts: 71,855
And1: 69,930
Joined: Jul 12, 2009

Re: Democratic Primary Thread: The Deuce 

Post#862 » by Clyde_Style » Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:27 pm

HarthorneWingo wrote:
GONYK wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:One final point and then I'm done. I think you neolibs will like this.

I'm even open to the idea that even if you DO NOT live in swing state, like NY, we should all vote for Biden because we need to run up the score when Trump challenges the election.

Before, my strategy was that if you didn't live in a swing state, you could afford to vote for a third candidate in protest. I'm scrapping that for this election. We need to run up the score.

See? I can compromise.

BYAAAAAAAAAAH!

Image


I am a good person! :lol:


You can be, that's why I still bother

P.S. I'm not a neoliberal. If you think that, then you are definitely not paying attention. That's a knee jerk reaction that posits me as opposed to you which is lazy thinking. I'm not opposed to you. I disagree with your tactics sometimes. I'm a progressive. Please figure that out so you can understand better where I'm coming from and why I'm focused on what I considered to be A Priori considerations. I'm also virulently anti-corruption and that to me means flushing out the system with major reforms and that will put a lot of Trumpers in prison and put a lot of people from previous administrations out of business. I have no interest in business as usual so you can drop the neoliberal tag as if you think that is an insult. It's not, because it would have to be true to sting and it is not and it doesn't.
HarthorneWingo
RealGM
Posts: 97,546
And1: 62,686
Joined: May 16, 2005

Re: Democratic Primary Thread: The Deuce 

Post#863 » by HarthorneWingo » Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:28 pm

Here's what's going to happen:

1. Trump and the entire Republican Party will declare victory on Election Night.

2. As the votes are counted showing Biden opening up a lead Trump will claim fraud

3. The Trump, his lawyers, and the DOJ will start filing lawsuits all over the country and they will drag this out.
Clyde_Style
RealGM
Posts: 71,855
And1: 69,930
Joined: Jul 12, 2009

Re: Democratic Primary Thread: The Deuce 

Post#864 » by Clyde_Style » Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:30 pm

HarthorneWingo wrote:Here's what's going to happen:

1. Trump and the entire Republican Party will declare victory on Election Night.

2. As the votes are counted showing Biden opening up a lead Trump will claim fraud

3. The Trump, his lawyers, and the DOJ will start filing lawsuits all over the country and they will drag this out.


The exit polls and electoral projections during the night will probably be devastating so it will make it hard to execute # 1

but the rest will happen

and they are bunglers so they will fail

the courts have been rejecting everything Trump and Barr try, including SCOTUS

They don't have control of the judicial branch much as they wish to see that happen
Clyde_Style
RealGM
Posts: 71,855
And1: 69,930
Joined: Jul 12, 2009

Re: Democratic Primary Thread: The Deuce 

Post#865 » by Clyde_Style » Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:38 pm

Barr is an absolutist. Trump happens to be Barr's enabler as much as Barr enables Trump, because Barr's vision of America is essentially totalitarian. Barr has perverse moral guidelines he wants society to follow that can only happen with full executive powers. He is very invested in destroying democracy. Trump offered Barr a lifelong dream to try to create a state that meets his standards. That's why Barr does what he does for Trump, not because he believes in Trump, but because he believes in Supreme Executive Powers and Trump is his ticket to attempt this. Barr is just as much a menace as Trump, but he is not super intelligent so he can't pull this off. Barr will go to jail.
BallSacBounce
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,929
And1: 2,411
Joined: Dec 14, 2011

Re: Democratic Primary Thread: The Deuce 

Post#866 » by BallSacBounce » Mon Aug 10, 2020 10:28 pm

HarthorneWingo wrote:They wit me :naaa:

https://www.blackenterprise.com/ice-cube-joins-charlamagne-diddy-against-biden-democrats-lets-hold-the-black-vote-hostage-until-theres-a-black-agenda-were-satisfied-with/

ICE CUBE JOINS CHARLAMAGNE, DIDDY, AGAINST BIDEN DEMOCRATS: ‘LET’S HOLD THE BLACK VOTE HOSTAGE UNTIL THERE’S A BLACK AGENDA WE’RE SATISFIED WITH’
by moguldomJune 1, 202025277

Image

On May 24, Ice Cube tweeted, “Hold the Black vote hostage until one of ’em comes with A Black Agenda that we’re satisfied with. It’s not our job to fix the country’s mess until we fix our mess…#****.”

The hip-hop icon’s tweet falls in line with a sentiment Sean “Diddy” Combs recently shared during an interview with Naomi Campbell when he called for Black people to hold off giving Joe Biden and the Democrats support until the Black community’s issues and needs are addressed.

“We want to know very clearly. Just like Trump made it clear that he wanted to build a wall, Biden needs to make it clear that he’s gonna change the lives and quality of life of Black and Brown people,” Diddy said. “Or else he can’t get the vote. I will hold the vote hostage if I have to.”

In the interview on Campbell’s web series, “No Filter with Naomi,” Diddy declared the “Black vote ain’t free.” More people seem to be following this belief especially after the presumptive presidential Democrat’s interview on The Breakfast Club with Charlamagne Tha God.

Nina Turner, national co-chair of the Bernie Sanders 2020 presidential campaign, tweeted, “The @DNC must stop playing games with our votes. And to my Beloved Black Community: Now is the time! We owe it to our ancestors, ourselves and to our future to seize this moment for the uplift of our people. This assignment is forever!#Iaintblack“

During the interview, Biden seemingly questioned Charlamagne’s — and any other undecided Black voter’s — Blackness by saying Black people who don’t vote for him“ain’t Black.”

Biden later backtracked and expressed remorse for acting so “cavalier,” insisting that he’s “never, never, ever taken the African-American community for granted,” Hot News Hip Hop reported.

Shortly after Diddy’s declaration, Biden released his plan for Black America called, “Lift Every Voice.”

Now, after The Breakfast Club interview, the Biden campaign reposted highlights from the plan on Instagram.

According to the post, “The Biden Plan for Black America” will close the wealth and income gap by investing in African-American workers, businesses, and communities, TheGrio reported. The post also stressed that a Biden administration would push for health equity and address racial inequity.

“I shouldn’t have been such a wise guy. I shouldn’t have been so cavalier…I have never, ever taken the African-American community for granted,” Biden said, according to journalist Yamiche Alcindor. “No one should have to vote for any party based on their race, background, religion, or any demographic information.”

While the sentiment of Diddy, Charlemagne, and now Ice Cube seems to be gaining momentum, other Black voters say now is not the time to put the election on the line.

Holding the Black vote hostage is irresponsible and puts the Black community in danger, wrote Christina M. Greer, an associate professor at Fordham University and the author of “Black Ethnics: Race, Immigration, and the Pursuit of the American Dream.” Greer co-hosts the podcast FAQ-NYC, and is the political editor at The Grio.

While Greer said she agrees with Diddy that Biden and the Democrats cannot take the Black vote for granted, she feels holding the Black vote hostage “would be detrimental to not only the Black community but the nation (and world) for generations to come.”




Image


I give this movement my full support.

What can I do to help?
User avatar
j4remi
Forum Mod - Knicks
Forum Mod - Knicks
Posts: 38,270
And1: 20,264
Joined: Jun 23, 2008
         

Re: Democratic Primary Thread: The Deuce 

Post#867 » by j4remi » Tue Aug 11, 2020 12:17 am

Clyde_Style wrote:
j4remi wrote:If a person chooses not to vote for Joe Biden because people made "sleepy Joe" jokes, were they ever gonna vote for him to begin with? The two types I see highly critical of Biden are

a) People who are heavy progressive, many because they've been in desperate situations which neither party addressed in a satisfactory way. So these people aren't comparing the two beyond, "my life has only improved superficially regardless of the lead"
or
b) People who only get cliff's notes versions of politics because they're not that into it. So these heads can fall into the false equivalence trap between Biden and Trump.

In both cases, I've found that acknowledgement of their frustrations is the easiest starting place followed by an appeal to damage control...then you can cite some easy examples where Trump compares miserably to Obama (ICE and Pandemic response being the easiest).


(1) Yes, America is full of low-info, bad content voters who do vote based on stupid memes, so you don't know that it won't affect voters.

(2) And even if it doesn't affect the vote, I still wish to see people I can agree with on actual issues not to roll in the mud with the trolls.

(3) These stupid fcking memes are generated by the opposition and they count on people repeating them until it turns into a universal theme regardless of political orientation. The intelligence community made it very clear Russia is very active again in this election and their bot farms push Sleepy Joe wisecracks, so I hate seeing leftists carry their memes. It disgusts me.


I generally expect low info, bad content voters to just vote along party lines which gives a general edge to Democrats (there's just more of us). I think the bigger concern is voters who typically stay home and that's why I think damage control is the best approach for them.

It's also not like the trolls are the only people talking about Biden here. The gaffes are annoying, we knew the gaffes were coming, but the gaffes are real. A lot of them exaggerated, but also really easily avoidable: "By the way, what you all know but most people don't know, unlike the African American community, with notable exceptions, the Latino community is an incredibly diverse community with incredibly different attitudes about different things"

Come on man...That's an own goal. He's doing the work for the troll farms here. You can only gaslight people so much before you start to sound completely unreliable when there are a gang of these awkward quotes.

And what I think is electorally worrisome is that you've got nothing for the "a" group I mentioned. The ones who got left behind even under Democratic administrations really just don't seem to register or when they do, appeals to them are treated as risky. But I think that appeals to those people would earn lifetime voters and expand the base a lot more than fighting with trolls.
PG- Haliburton | Schroder | Sasser
SG- Grimes | Dick | Bogdanovic
SF- Bridges | George
PF- Hunter |Strus| Fleming
C- Turner | Powell | Wiseman
User avatar
aq_ua
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 21,756
And1: 7,789
Joined: May 08, 2002
Location: Optimistic but realistic

Re: Democratic Primary Thread: The Deuce 

Post#868 » by aq_ua » Tue Aug 11, 2020 12:47 am

Pointgod wrote:
Are We Ther Yet wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
So he could've done the whole $600 but chose $400? This is an example of being "penny wise and dollar foolish."


Better than the $200 the Republicans were talking about. Less debt added while still giving something resembling a fair amount for a large part of the country. Seems like an attempt to meet in the middle. I hate Trump as much as the next guy but... I'll give him a shred of credit for at least trying to compromise as opposed to doing nothing. He and McConnel are both on record saying they would consider the $600...but at what cost?

I guess we will see a counter offer from Dems on this.


I wrote this in another thread:

Except like everything with Trump it’s just the allusion that he’s doing something. He signed one executive order and couple of memorandums that don’t have any teeth.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/09/politics/trump-executive-actions-coronavirus-explainer/index.html

States have to chip in. Now, under Trump's measure, the federal government is requiring states to pick up the tab for 25% ($100) of the as much as $400 additional benefit each person may be able to receive weekly in additional aid. On top of that, a state must agree to enter into this financial agreement with the federal government for any unemployed person living there to get any of the additional benefits.

States are in dire financial straits. Many states have already asked the federal government for major financial help. Several experts told CNN there are major questions about how many states may be able to afford the extra cost.

If a state says that it does not have the funds or does want to enter into the agreement with the federal government, the unemployed person in that state receives zero dollars in extra federal benefits (they would still receive the normal state unemployment insurance).

In fact, states have asked Congress to provide them with an additional $500 billion to help shore up their budgets, which have been crushed by the loss of tax revenue amid the pandemic.


Like always Trump isn’t actually doing anything, he just wants the appearance of doing something and in the bigger picture the problem is that Republicans and The Whitehouse had their thumbs up their ass for 3 months after the Democrats passed a relief package back in May. Why give him any credit for doing little when he’s part of the problem in the first place. The Senate doesn’t need Democrats to come up with a package.

I bring it back to MMT. The federal government can print money - state governments cannot. There is no possible equivalency or trade-off between the two that ever makes economic sense. Pandemic relief can't possibly come from anywhere other than federal funds and fiscal policy - the requirements are too large and the duration uncertain, these aren't risks that state level governments have the resources to absorb.
HarthorneWingo
RealGM
Posts: 97,546
And1: 62,686
Joined: May 16, 2005

Re: Democratic Primary Thread: The Deuce 

Post#869 » by HarthorneWingo » Tue Aug 11, 2020 12:53 am

aq_ua wrote:
Pointgod wrote:
Are We Ther Yet wrote:
Better than the $200 the Republicans were talking about. Less debt added while still giving something resembling a fair amount for a large part of the country. Seems like an attempt to meet in the middle. I hate Trump as much as the next guy but... I'll give him a shred of credit for at least trying to compromise as opposed to doing nothing. He and McConnel are both on record saying they would consider the $600...but at what cost?

I guess we will see a counter offer from Dems on this.


I wrote this in another thread:

Except like everything with Trump it’s just the allusion that he’s doing something. He signed one executive order and couple of memorandums that don’t have any teeth.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/09/politics/trump-executive-actions-coronavirus-explainer/index.html

States have to chip in. Now, under Trump's measure, the federal government is requiring states to pick up the tab for 25% ($100) of the as much as $400 additional benefit each person may be able to receive weekly in additional aid. On top of that, a state must agree to enter into this financial agreement with the federal government for any unemployed person living there to get any of the additional benefits.

States are in dire financial straits. Many states have already asked the federal government for major financial help. Several experts told CNN there are major questions about how many states may be able to afford the extra cost.

If a state says that it does not have the funds or does want to enter into the agreement with the federal government, the unemployed person in that state receives zero dollars in extra federal benefits (they would still receive the normal state unemployment insurance).

In fact, states have asked Congress to provide them with an additional $500 billion to help shore up their budgets, which have been crushed by the loss of tax revenue amid the pandemic.


Like always Trump isn’t actually doing anything, he just wants the appearance of doing something and in the bigger picture the problem is that Republicans and The Whitehouse had their thumbs up their ass for 3 months after the Democrats passed a relief package back in May. Why give him any credit for doing little when he’s part of the problem in the first place. The Senate doesn’t need Democrats to come up with a package.

I bring it back to MMT. The federal government can print money - state governments cannot. There is no possible equivalency or trade-off between the two that ever makes economic sense. Pandemic relief can't possibly come from anywhere other than federal funds and fiscal policy - the requirements are too large and the duration uncertain, these aren't risks that state level governments have the resources to absorb.



I read/heard news that what Trump did on with his EO on UC is unconstitutiuonal. I didn't bother with educating myself on the legal argument bc it really makes no difference at this point. It's the same old Trump MO: do what he wants and makes you sue him. In the meantime ...
User avatar
dakomish23
Forum Mod - Knicks
Forum Mod - Knicks
Posts: 58,788
And1: 48,762
Joined: Sep 22, 2013
Location: Empire State
     

Re: Democratic Primary Thread: The Deuce 

Post#870 » by dakomish23 » Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:23 am

Damn. Covid could have stopped a world war if one was going on.
Jimmit79 wrote:Yea RJ played well he was definitely the x factor


#FreeJimmit
HarthorneWingo
RealGM
Posts: 97,546
And1: 62,686
Joined: May 16, 2005

Re: Democratic Primary Thread: The Deuce 

Post#871 » by HarthorneWingo » Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:18 am

dakomish23 wrote:Damn. Covid could have stopped a world war if one was going on.


Not to worry. We we're ALWAYS ready for a world war. Just keep the bomber planes socially distant. :D
HarthorneWingo
RealGM
Posts: 97,546
And1: 62,686
Joined: May 16, 2005

Re: Democratic Primary Thread: The Deuce 

Post#872 » by HarthorneWingo » Tue Aug 11, 2020 7:13 am

User avatar
dakomish23
Forum Mod - Knicks
Forum Mod - Knicks
Posts: 58,788
And1: 48,762
Joined: Sep 22, 2013
Location: Empire State
     

Re: Democratic Primary Thread: The Deuce 

Post#873 » by dakomish23 » Tue Aug 11, 2020 7:54 am

HarthorneWingo wrote:
dakomish23 wrote:Damn. Covid could have stopped a world war if one was going on.


Not to worry. We we're ALWAYS ready for a world war. Just keep the bomber planes socially distant. :D


Related to this

Read on Twitter
Jimmit79 wrote:Yea RJ played well he was definitely the x factor


#FreeJimmit
Clyde_Style
RealGM
Posts: 71,855
And1: 69,930
Joined: Jul 12, 2009

Re: Democratic Primary Thread: The Deuce 

Post#874 » by Clyde_Style » Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:29 am

j4remi wrote:
Clyde_Style wrote:
j4remi wrote:If a person chooses not to vote for Joe Biden because people made "sleepy Joe" jokes, were they ever gonna vote for him to begin with? The two types I see highly critical of Biden are

a) People who are heavy progressive, many because they've been in desperate situations which neither party addressed in a satisfactory way. So these people aren't comparing the two beyond, "my life has only improved superficially regardless of the lead"
or
b) People who only get cliff's notes versions of politics because they're not that into it. So these heads can fall into the false equivalence trap between Biden and Trump.

In both cases, I've found that acknowledgement of their frustrations is the easiest starting place followed by an appeal to damage control...then you can cite some easy examples where Trump compares miserably to Obama (ICE and Pandemic response being the easiest).


(1) Yes, America is full of low-info, bad content voters who do vote based on stupid memes, so you don't know that it won't affect voters.

(2) And even if it doesn't affect the vote, I still wish to see people I can agree with on actual issues not to roll in the mud with the trolls.

(3) These stupid fcking memes are generated by the opposition and they count on people repeating them until it turns into a universal theme regardless of political orientation. The intelligence community made it very clear Russia is very active again in this election and their bot farms push Sleepy Joe wisecracks, so I hate seeing leftists carry their memes. It disgusts me.


I generally expect low info, bad content voters to just vote along party lines which gives a general edge to Democrats (there's just more of us). I think the bigger concern is voters who typically stay home and that's why I think damage control is the best approach for them.

It's also not like the trolls are the only people talking about Biden here. The gaffes are annoying, we knew the gaffes were coming, but the gaffes are real. A lot of them exaggerated, but also really easily avoidable: "By the way, what you all know but most people don't know, unlike the African American community, with notable exceptions, the Latino community is an incredibly diverse community with incredibly different attitudes about different things"

Come on man...That's an own goal. He's doing the work for the troll farms here. You can only gaslight people so much before you start to sound completely unreliable when there are a gang of these awkward quotes.

And what I think is electorally worrisome is that you've got nothing for the "a" group I mentioned. The ones who got left behind even under Democratic administrations really just don't seem to register or when they do, appeals to them are treated as risky. But I think that appeals to those people would earn lifetime voters and expand the base a lot more than fighting with trolls.


First off, you're talking to a guy who really wanted Elizabeth Warren, not a castoff from the Obama era. Biden is clearly not the best candidate we could have had, but have you even seen me bitch about him? Nah. I don't because it is extremely counter-productive. Just because I take issue with the trolling does not mean I love Joe Biden. It means I'm fiercely protective of this one chance we've got to win this or else we become a Nazi run country so hell yes I'm going to take issue with people constantly running down the Democratic nominee. But that's not the only reason.

You can fight for the issues without the trolling. Go ahead and criticize anything you like about Biden's platform. He's listening as I think you've noticed. He might not be the clod of earth some guys make him out to be. IOW, he may actually let people be heard in his administration and make major compromises. I'd say shifting zero carbo emission goals by 10 years is a pretty big adjustment. So he ain't Liz or Bernie, but for now he'll do as long as he stomps the F out of Trump.

Doing anything to jeapordize Biden's victory is foolishness. There's policy debate and there's trolling and they are two different things. And the left wing in this country has a serious trolling problem that is going to undermine them if they don't help each other stay on point and skip the extra-curricular bitching.

I mean whose side do you think Glen Greenwald is on anyway? Yours? The guy perpetrated a rape accusation that was absurd and the left was chewing it up like red meat. It was pathetic. And you did nothing to step in and say anything about it. I take all the heat around here when I bring up these ethical matters, but when I tell you the left has an ethics problem you tell me I'm being condescending. Well, you do have a problem and I look to smart wonks like you to speak up when people you are aligned with take it too far.

For example, in the George Floyd thread I was called both Whitey and a White Supremacist and not a single mod stepped in to say that's not OK. So fine, I handle myself and dealt with it. I'm no wallflower, but I'm principled in my arguments and not everyone here is. I get it, you guys leave me to my own devices, but if you're not going to deal with unethical mob behavior don't tell me I'm condescending when I'm the only one around here who challenges people about things like calling Biden a rapist or sticking to my guns when I tell people who are foaming at the mouth ready to burn everything down that it is not cool to burn out your neighborhood bodega or local thai restauraunt because of 400 years of the white oppression.

Every time I see someone act by the ethos of By Any Means Necessary I see revolutionary posturing that somehow committing evil to combat evil is the answer. It is not. It is rubbish. This era has been defined by a complete breakdown of the ability to discern truth and without truth you'll get no justice. You cannot expect to achieve justice if we continually stand by silently when our brothers and sisters lower themselves to the standards of the enemy. Trolling is the way of the Trumpers. We are not them and we should not behave like them and cast false accusations or mock those we need to support. It is short-sighted and leads to failure.

P.S. Even if the above touches on some stuff I wrangled with Wingo about before, I am not mad at him and this is not intended to target him. I want him to enjoy RealGM and wish him well. This is just something that I needed to say, because it is not about any one person. But if people are going to say I'm gaslighting or I'm a white supremacist, I'm going to take issue with that, because neither are true. We can choose to hold each other to some kind of standard. Or not. I don't control that. I just speak up when others don't.
User avatar
GONYK
Forum Mod - Knicks
Forum Mod - Knicks
Posts: 67,008
And1: 45,778
Joined: Jun 27, 2003
Location: Brunson Gang
   

Re: Democratic Primary Thread: The Deuce 

Post#875 » by GONYK » Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:33 pm

Read on Twitter
?s=20
BallSacBounce
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,929
And1: 2,411
Joined: Dec 14, 2011

Re: Democratic Primary Thread: The Deuce 

Post#876 » by BallSacBounce » Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:38 pm

Trump needs to send Pelosi a nice gift basket for this gem. Sure to appear in many campaign ads.

Pelosi: "China woild prefer Joe Biden, that's their conclusion."

If Joe Biden becomes president you can kiss goodbye those record low unemployment numbers for Black and Hispanic workers. That sucking sound you here will be jobs moving overseas again.

But it's ok, who needs a job right?

Read on Twitter
User avatar
j4remi
Forum Mod - Knicks
Forum Mod - Knicks
Posts: 38,270
And1: 20,264
Joined: Jun 23, 2008
         

Re: Democratic Primary Thread: The Deuce 

Post#877 » by j4remi » Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:57 pm

Clyde_Style wrote:First off, you're talking to a guy who really wanted Elizabeth Warren, not a castoff from the Obama era. Biden is clearly not the best candidate we could have had, but have you even seen me bitch about him? Nah. I don't because it is extremely counter-productive. Just because I take issue with the trolling does not mean I love Joe Biden. It means I'm fiercely protective of this one chance we've got to win this or else we become a Nazi run country so hell yes I'm going to take issue with people constantly running down the Democratic nominee. But that's not the only reason.

You can fight for the issues without the trolling. Go ahead and criticize anything you like about Biden's platform. He's listening as I think you've noticed. He might not be the clod of earth some guys make him out to be. IOW, he may actually let people be heard in his administration and make major compromises. I'd say shifting zero carbo emission goals by 10 years is a pretty big adjustment. So he ain't Liz or Bernie, but for now he'll do as long as he stomps the F out of Trump.

Doing anything to jeapordize Biden's victory is foolishness. There's policy debate and there's trolling and they are two different things. And the left wing in this country has a serious trolling problem that is going to undermine them if they don't help each other stay on point and skip the extra-curricular bitching.

I mean whose side do you think Glen Greenwald is on anyway? Yours? The guy perpetrated a rape accusation that was absurd and the left was chewing it up like red meat. It was pathetic. And you did nothing to step in and say anything about it. I take all the heat around here when I bring up these ethical matters, but when I tell you the left has an ethics problem you tell me I'm being condescending. Well, you do have a problem and I look to smart wonks like you to speak up when people you are aligned with take it too far.

For example, in the George Floyd thread I was called both Whitey and a White Supremacist and not a single mod stepped in to say that's not OK. So fine, I handle myself and dealt with it. I'm no wallflower, but I'm principled in my arguments and not everyone here is. I get it, you guys leave me to my own devices, but if you're not going to deal with unethical mob behavior don't tell me I'm condescending when I'm the only one around here who challenges people about things like calling Biden a rapist or sticking to my guns when I tell people who are foaming at the mouth ready to burn everything down that it is not cool to burn out your neighborhood bodega or local thai restauraunt because of 400 years of the white oppression.

Every time I see someone act by the ethos of By Any Means Necessary I see revolutionary posturing that somehow committing evil to combat evil is the answer. It is not. It is rubbish. This era has been defined by a complete breakdown of the ability to discern truth and without truth you'll get no justice. You cannot expect to achieve justice if we continually stand by silently when our brothers and sisters lower themselves to the standards of the enemy. Trolling is the way of the Trumpers. We are not them and we should not behave like them and cast false accusations or mock those we need to support. It is short-sighted and leads to failure.

P.S. Even if the above touches on some stuff I wrangled with Wingo about before, I am not mad at him and this is not intended to target him. I want him to enjoy RealGM and wish him well. This is just something that I needed to say, because it is not about any one person. But if people are going to say I'm gaslighting or I'm a white supremacist, I'm going to take issue with that, because neither are true. We can choose to hold each other to some kind of standard. Or not. I don't control that. I just speak up when others don't.


This post didn't address anything I've been trying to say. My points were
a) I don't think sleepy Joe Biden memes are a threat to his candidacy as much as his inability to appeal to certain demographics or avoid gaffes is.

b) When you dismiss every comment about Biden's gaffes as Trolling and spend all your time complaining about trolls, you're obfuscating and gaslighting. Because there are people with real complaints, who have real issues or priorities that they don't believe Biden is addressing when they hear him speak. You need to humble yourself enough to listen to those people and figure out what Biden offers that can appeal to them specifically.

c) By focusing on trolls and ignoring everything else, you completely ignore sincere complaints that people have and which Biden may or may not be addressing. If he is addressing them, then you can point to solutions he offers and if he's not then you can probably find some Trump maneuvers that make the problems worse. But that starts with listening and actually paying attention to what you're being told. This stuff isn't effective if you construct a defensive bubble.

My entire first post was to say "There are legitimate complaints you ignore by just decrying trolls. To appeal to those voters, you need to offer honest comparisons." Here let's circle back...

j4remi wrote:If a person chooses not to vote for Joe Biden because people made "sleepy Joe" jokes, were they ever gonna vote for him to begin with? The two types I see highly critical of Biden are

a) People who are heavy progressive, many because they've been in desperate situations which neither party addressed in a satisfactory way. So these people aren't comparing the two beyond, "my life has only improved superficially regardless of the lead"
or
b) People who only get cliff's notes versions of politics because they're not that into it. So these heads can fall into the false equivalence trap between Biden and Trump.

In both cases, I've found that acknowledgement of their frustrations is the easiest starting place followed by an appeal to damage control...then you can cite some easy examples where Trump compares miserably to Obama (ICE and Pandemic response being the easiest).


This is about how to appeal to people that I don't think you have any respect or appreciation for Clyde. Your disdain is not so subtle with some of the rhetoric you use. So while you may not "bitch" about Biden; you also don't seem to be able to differentiate between a troll and someone whose day to day challenges have them ready to give up on the system altogether. Or at least you don't seem very interested in those people as long as there's a rude minority of the group to conflate everyone for.
PG- Haliburton | Schroder | Sasser
SG- Grimes | Dick | Bogdanovic
SF- Bridges | George
PF- Hunter |Strus| Fleming
C- Turner | Powell | Wiseman
HarthorneWingo
RealGM
Posts: 97,546
And1: 62,686
Joined: May 16, 2005

Re: Democratic Primary Thread: The Deuce 

Post#878 » by HarthorneWingo » Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:18 pm

dakomish23 wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
dakomish23 wrote:Damn. Covid could have stopped a world war if one was going on.


Not to worry. We we're ALWAYS ready for a world war. Just keep the bomber planes socially distant. :D


Related to this

Read on Twitter



:lol:

Trump is one of the smartest people he knows.

HarthorneWingo
RealGM
Posts: 97,546
And1: 62,686
Joined: May 16, 2005

Re: Democratic Primary Thread: The Deuce 

Post#879 » by HarthorneWingo » Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:23 pm

Clyde_Style wrote:
j4remi wrote:
Clyde_Style wrote:
(1) Yes, America is full of low-info, bad content voters who do vote based on stupid memes, so you don't know that it won't affect voters.

(2) And even if it doesn't affect the vote, I still wish to see people I can agree with on actual issues not to roll in the mud with the trolls.

(3) These stupid fcking memes are generated by the opposition and they count on people repeating them until it turns into a universal theme regardless of political orientation. The intelligence community made it very clear Russia is very active again in this election and their bot farms push Sleepy Joe wisecracks, so I hate seeing leftists carry their memes. It disgusts me.


I generally expect low info, bad content voters to just vote along party lines which gives a general edge to Democrats (there's just more of us). I think the bigger concern is voters who typically stay home and that's why I think damage control is the best approach for them.

It's also not like the trolls are the only people talking about Biden here. The gaffes are annoying, we knew the gaffes were coming, but the gaffes are real. A lot of them exaggerated, but also really easily avoidable: "By the way, what you all know but most people don't know, unlike the African American community, with notable exceptions, the Latino community is an incredibly diverse community with incredibly different attitudes about different things"

Come on man...That's an own goal. He's doing the work for the troll farms here. You can only gaslight people so much before you start to sound completely unreliable when there are a gang of these awkward quotes.

And what I think is electorally worrisome is that you've got nothing for the "a" group I mentioned. The ones who got left behind even under Democratic administrations really just don't seem to register or when they do, appeals to them are treated as risky. But I think that appeals to those people would earn lifetime voters and expand the base a lot more than fighting with trolls.


First off, you're talking to a guy who really wanted Elizabeth Warren, not a castoff from the Obama era. Biden is clearly not the best candidate we could have had, but have you even seen me bitch about him? Nah. I don't because it is extremely counter-productive. Just because I take issue with the trolling does not mean I love Joe Biden. It means I'm fiercely protective of this one chance we've got to win this or else we become a Nazi run country so hell yes I'm going to take issue with people constantly running down the Democratic nominee. But that's not the only reason.

You can fight for the issues without the trolling. Go ahead and criticize anything you like about Biden's platform. He's listening as I think you've noticed. He might not be the clod of earth some guys make him out to be. IOW, he may actually let people be heard in his administration and make major compromises. I'd say shifting zero carbo emission goals by 10 years is a pretty big adjustment. So he ain't Liz or Bernie, but for now he'll do as long as he stomps the F out of Trump.

Doing anything to jeapordize Biden's victory is foolishness. There's policy debate and there's trolling and they are two different things. And the left wing in this country has a serious trolling problem that is going to undermine them if they don't help each other stay on point and skip the extra-curricular bitching.

I mean whose side do you think Glen Greenwald is on anyway? Yours? The guy perpetrated a rape accusation that was absurd and the left was chewing it up like red meat. It was pathetic. And you did nothing to step in and say anything about it. I take all the heat around here when I bring up these ethical matters, but when I tell you the left has an ethics problem you tell me I'm being condescending. Well, you do have a problem and I look to smart wonks like you to speak up when people you are aligned with take it too far.

For example, in the George Floyd thread I was called both Whitey and a White Supremacist and not a single mod stepped in to say that's not OK. So fine, I handle myself and dealt with it. I'm no wallflower, but I'm principled in my arguments and not everyone here is. I get it, you guys leave me to my own devices, but if you're not going to deal with unethical mob behavior don't tell me I'm condescending when I'm the only one around here who challenges people about things like calling Biden a rapist or sticking to my guns when I tell people who are foaming at the mouth ready to burn everything down that it is not cool to burn out your neighborhood bodega or local thai restauraunt because of 400 years of the white oppression.

Every time I see someone act by the ethos of By Any Means Necessary I see revolutionary posturing that somehow committing evil to combat evil is the answer. It is not. It is rubbish. This era has been defined by a complete breakdown of the ability to discern truth and without truth you'll get no justice. You cannot expect to achieve justice if we continually stand by silently when our brothers and sisters lower themselves to the standards of the enemy. Trolling is the way of the Trumpers. We are not them and we should not behave like them and cast false accusations or mock those we need to support. It is short-sighted and leads to failure.

P.S. Even if the above touches on some stuff I wrangled with Wingo about before, I am not mad at him and this is not intended to target him. I want him to enjoy RealGM and wish him well. This is just something that I needed to say, because it is not about any one person. But if people are going to say I'm gaslighting or I'm a white supremacist, I'm going to take issue with that, because neither are true. We can choose to hold each other to some kind of standard. Or not. I don't control that. I just speak up when others don't.


Eh, you did say I wasn’t a good person, as I recall.
HarthorneWingo
RealGM
Posts: 97,546
And1: 62,686
Joined: May 16, 2005

Re: Democratic Primary Thread: The Deuce 

Post#880 » by HarthorneWingo » Tue Aug 11, 2020 4:07 pm

Back to work ...

So the list of DNC Convention speakers are out and only two of them (Bernie Sanders and AOC) support M4A. Meanwhile 69% of all Americans (not just Democrats) support it. So why would you swerve to the right on this and have all these conservative democrats and republicans speak and not those Democratic legislators fighting for what ALL Americans want ... and need very badly at this point.

Kampala Harris, of all people, is the speaker just before Joe Biden speaks. Womp womp. She's not even that popular with the Democratic base.

Chris Coons, the conservative Senator from the Corporate state of Delaware is also a featured speaker. :noway:

But, hey, they're not Trump.

Return to New York Knicks