Game logs and shot data for old games
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Re: Game logs and shot data for old games
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colts18
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Re: Game logs and shot data for old games
Trex and 70sfan. Yall are doing amazing work in this thread. Keep up the good work!
Re: Game logs and shot data for old games
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70sFan
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Re: Game logs and shot data for old games
colts18 wrote:Trex and 70sfan. Yall are doing amazing work in this thread. Keep up the good work!
I'm just sharing a footage, trex does all the work here!
Re: Game logs and shot data for old games
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trex_8063
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Re: Game logs and shot data for old games
Some general impressions.....
early 60s Lakers offense
One of the problems with some of these 60s Laker teams was a general lack of ball-movement. Their offense most frequently boiled down to either West or Baylor making a play [for themselves, or occasionally a dish] in isolation. There doesn't appear to be much by way of set plays [or at least sophisticated ones], and at times a striking lack of movement [both the ball and the off-ball players]. The assist-to-turnover ratios on the games I've logged so far is pretty poor.
Though I know West led the league in assists once or twice, Baylor actually looks like the best passer to me in these few games I've done.
Bob Cousy: the jump-shot and the passing
It's been said that Cousy never developed a jump-shot, and that this was an indicator he couldn't adequate evolve with the times. I've never been 100% sold on this idea. I mean, even I mastered a jump-shot to where it was my bread-and-butter [well, after my 3pt shooting]; if I can do, anyone can. Cousy's career is at an interesting time, as it fairly evenly bridges the era that is [mostly] pre-jumpshot and the era in which it was becoming pretty commonplace. Hard to say what his thoughts or motivations were while playing in this transition period. Certainly he didn't endeavor to "master" this skill or make it a regular part of his repertoire, though with the success he was seeing without it, and given the relative novelty or newness of its popularity....he maybe just figured it wasn't essential.
But for the record he does take one actual jump-shot (not a runner, not a hook-shot, not some awkward off of one foot push-shot) in this game (from about 15-16 ft). He missed it, but I just wanted to point out it's there.
On the topic of jump-shots vs set shots, the one and only shot taken by Cousy's primary replacement (K.C.Jones) in the '64 video was an utterly flat-footed 21-foot set shot. Very strange-looking: he is literally standing on his heels, doesn't move his feet at all, and just sort of pushes it out there from the chest/shoulders.
As to the passing, Cousy notches SEVEN assists in the '62 video (of the 9 TOTAL for the Celtics), despite it spanning basically just a quarter of the game. And 2-3 of them are some seriously high-level dimes, imo.
The one beginning at 4:40 is a nice transition assist in traffic for the And-1.
The assist beginning at 7:59 demonstrates his creation ability too (penetrate, get help to commit, dish).
And I still think he has pretty good open-court speed with the dribble, given he's probably inched past his prime by this point, and it's frankly hard to move fast with the ball under the ball-handling rules of the time (something I think many people don't seem to consider when they watch these old games; more on this below).
Sam Jones
I'm not going to say much here because I want to make a larger post regarding some shooting tendencies on multiple players once I have more data. But early on it seems as though Sam was VERY proficient in the 10-16' range, but falls off in a hurry going from greater distance than that.
One other thing I'm noting is that he perhaps wasn't as good defensively as I'd previously assumed. I've even noted that [where possible] the Celtics made a defensive possession substitution, pulling Sam out and replacing with either Havlicek or K.C. (or I think once even Larry Siegfried), indicating they see him as a relative liability on that end.
Guy Rodgers
Rodgers is a guy I've felt is sort of historically overrated based on his high assist totals and 4 All-Star nods. But his shooting efficiency is pretty consistently awful, and he's basically NEVER in his career associated with a particularly good offense (and seems to provide no lift at all).
Perhaps something of the Rajon Rondo of his generation?? And like Rondo, he doesn't appear to have much range. He takes three shots from outside 16' in this half (although one of those was a 60' heave on a busted play to beat the shotclock [good awareness to get it away]), missing them all. But what's more is that there were multiple instances where Havlicek sagged WAY off of Rodgers; sometimes even as Rodgers dribbled to within 17-18 ft of the basket, Hondo would still be sagged a few feet off. And Rodgers was still mostly disinclined to shoot from there.
Similar to Cousy, Rodgers could REALLY move quickly with the ball in the open court (which again: SO hard to do by early 1960s ball-handling rules; when you can't shove the ball out ahead of you as you take long sprinting strides [because to do so you'd have to put your hand on the side of the ball, which is a carry], it's so hard to move at their speed).
And I must admit Rodgers looks like an AMAZING ball-handler for the day; in addition to the open-court speed, he had some behind the back dribbles, a spin move, etc.
He's very very good at getting into the lane; just not very good at finishing. To be fair, the Warriors don't look like they have other true creators (other than maybe Wilt).
Wilt
So this video is only the 2nd half (and only about 90% of it at that, with perhaps 2+ minutes missing).......and Wilt still had 17 pts and 15 reb
.
otoh, he also had 3 turnovers, but still.
Still would like to see him be even more aggressive in the post.
Heinsohn
Tommy's taking some wild shots in this game. He goes on a bit of heater for a stretch, though, ultimately finishing 7/15 from the field in this clip. He makes one REALLY nice assist to Russell as well.
He seems like he gets gassed easier than some on the roster......might be all that smoking in the locker room.
Meschery
It's too bad Meschery has an awful shooting night (I know he's a better shooter than this); might have been the difference between the Warriors losing and the Warriors winning.
Rodgers shoots poorly too (even by his standards), and you can see that the Warriors are a combined 15/47 (32%) in this video, while the Celtics completely run over them in the 2nd half.
early 60s Lakers offense
One of the problems with some of these 60s Laker teams was a general lack of ball-movement. Their offense most frequently boiled down to either West or Baylor making a play [for themselves, or occasionally a dish] in isolation. There doesn't appear to be much by way of set plays [or at least sophisticated ones], and at times a striking lack of movement [both the ball and the off-ball players]. The assist-to-turnover ratios on the games I've logged so far is pretty poor.
Though I know West led the league in assists once or twice, Baylor actually looks like the best passer to me in these few games I've done.
Bob Cousy: the jump-shot and the passing
It's been said that Cousy never developed a jump-shot, and that this was an indicator he couldn't adequate evolve with the times. I've never been 100% sold on this idea. I mean, even I mastered a jump-shot to where it was my bread-and-butter [well, after my 3pt shooting]; if I can do, anyone can. Cousy's career is at an interesting time, as it fairly evenly bridges the era that is [mostly] pre-jumpshot and the era in which it was becoming pretty commonplace. Hard to say what his thoughts or motivations were while playing in this transition period. Certainly he didn't endeavor to "master" this skill or make it a regular part of his repertoire, though with the success he was seeing without it, and given the relative novelty or newness of its popularity....he maybe just figured it wasn't essential.
But for the record he does take one actual jump-shot (not a runner, not a hook-shot, not some awkward off of one foot push-shot) in this game (from about 15-16 ft). He missed it, but I just wanted to point out it's there.
On the topic of jump-shots vs set shots, the one and only shot taken by Cousy's primary replacement (K.C.Jones) in the '64 video was an utterly flat-footed 21-foot set shot. Very strange-looking: he is literally standing on his heels, doesn't move his feet at all, and just sort of pushes it out there from the chest/shoulders.
As to the passing, Cousy notches SEVEN assists in the '62 video (of the 9 TOTAL for the Celtics), despite it spanning basically just a quarter of the game. And 2-3 of them are some seriously high-level dimes, imo.
The one beginning at 4:40 is a nice transition assist in traffic for the And-1.
The assist beginning at 7:59 demonstrates his creation ability too (penetrate, get help to commit, dish).
And I still think he has pretty good open-court speed with the dribble, given he's probably inched past his prime by this point, and it's frankly hard to move fast with the ball under the ball-handling rules of the time (something I think many people don't seem to consider when they watch these old games; more on this below).
Sam Jones
I'm not going to say much here because I want to make a larger post regarding some shooting tendencies on multiple players once I have more data. But early on it seems as though Sam was VERY proficient in the 10-16' range, but falls off in a hurry going from greater distance than that.
One other thing I'm noting is that he perhaps wasn't as good defensively as I'd previously assumed. I've even noted that [where possible] the Celtics made a defensive possession substitution, pulling Sam out and replacing with either Havlicek or K.C. (or I think once even Larry Siegfried), indicating they see him as a relative liability on that end.
Guy Rodgers
Rodgers is a guy I've felt is sort of historically overrated based on his high assist totals and 4 All-Star nods. But his shooting efficiency is pretty consistently awful, and he's basically NEVER in his career associated with a particularly good offense (and seems to provide no lift at all).
Perhaps something of the Rajon Rondo of his generation?? And like Rondo, he doesn't appear to have much range. He takes three shots from outside 16' in this half (although one of those was a 60' heave on a busted play to beat the shotclock [good awareness to get it away]), missing them all. But what's more is that there were multiple instances where Havlicek sagged WAY off of Rodgers; sometimes even as Rodgers dribbled to within 17-18 ft of the basket, Hondo would still be sagged a few feet off. And Rodgers was still mostly disinclined to shoot from there.
Similar to Cousy, Rodgers could REALLY move quickly with the ball in the open court (which again: SO hard to do by early 1960s ball-handling rules; when you can't shove the ball out ahead of you as you take long sprinting strides [because to do so you'd have to put your hand on the side of the ball, which is a carry], it's so hard to move at their speed).
And I must admit Rodgers looks like an AMAZING ball-handler for the day; in addition to the open-court speed, he had some behind the back dribbles, a spin move, etc.
He's very very good at getting into the lane; just not very good at finishing. To be fair, the Warriors don't look like they have other true creators (other than maybe Wilt).
Wilt
So this video is only the 2nd half (and only about 90% of it at that, with perhaps 2+ minutes missing).......and Wilt still had 17 pts and 15 reb
.otoh, he also had 3 turnovers, but still.
Still would like to see him be even more aggressive in the post.
Heinsohn
Tommy's taking some wild shots in this game. He goes on a bit of heater for a stretch, though, ultimately finishing 7/15 from the field in this clip. He makes one REALLY nice assist to Russell as well.
He seems like he gets gassed easier than some on the roster......might be all that smoking in the locker room.
Meschery
It's too bad Meschery has an awful shooting night (I know he's a better shooter than this); might have been the difference between the Warriors losing and the Warriors winning.
Rodgers shoots poorly too (even by his standards), and you can see that the Warriors are a combined 15/47 (32%) in this video, while the Celtics completely run over them in the 2nd half.
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Re: Game logs and shot data for old games
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70sFan
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Re: Game logs and shot data for old games
trex_8063 wrote:Though I know West led the league in assists once or twice, Baylor actually looks like the best passer to me in these few games I've done.
Baylor is very good passer, he just had some tendencies of overshooting at times.
Bob Cousy: the jump-shot and the passing
It's been said that Cousy never developed a jump-shot, and that this was an indicator he couldn't adequate evolve with the times. I've never been 100% sold on this idea. I mean, even I mastered a jump-shot to where it was my bread-and-butter [well, after my 3pt shooting]; if I can do, anyone can. Cousy's career is at an interesting time, as it fairly evenly bridges the era that is [mostly] pre-jumpshot and the era in which it was becoming pretty commonplace. Hard to say what his thoughts or motivations were while playing in this transition period. Certainly he didn't endeavor to "master" this skill or make it a regular part of his repertoire, though with the success he was seeing without it, and given the relative novelty or newness of its popularity....he maybe just figured it wasn't essential.
But for the record he does take one actual jump-shot (not a runner, not a hook-shot, not some awkward off of one foot push-shot) in this game (from about 15-16 ft). He missed it, but I just wanted to point out it's there.
I've seen at least 5 made jumpshots from Cousy in different reels, he used it comfortably in the midrange.
On the topic of jump-shots vs set shots, the one and only shot taken by Cousy's primary replacement (K.C.Jones) in the '64 video was an utterly flat-footed 21-foot set shot. Very strange-looking: he is literally standing on his heels, doesn't move his feet at all, and just sort of pushes it out there from the chest/shoulders.
I've seen many different looking setshots from 1950s players and KC Jones had by far the worst looking one. Most of 1950s players have forms in which you can see that there is a technique behind it. KC had no touch in his setshot.
As to the passing, Cousy notches SEVEN assists in the '62 video (of the 9 TOTAL for the Celtics), despite it spanning basically just a quarter of the game. And 2-3 of them are some seriously high-level dimes, imo.
The one beginning at 4:40 is a nice transition assist in traffic for the And-1.
The assist beginning at 7:59 demonstrates his creation ability too (penetrate, get help to commit, dish).
I'm often too biased for that era, but I'll always mantain that Cousy is one of the best passers ever. His highlight reels are just sick.
And I still think he has pretty good open-court speed with the dribble, given he's probably inched past his prime by this point, and it's frankly hard to move fast with the ball under the ball-handling rules of the time (something I think many people don't seem to consider when they watch these old games; more on this below).
Yeah, Cousy wasn't great athlete but he's quick and had great coordination.
Guy Rodgers
Rodgers is a guy I've felt is sort of historically overrated based on his high assist totals and 4 All-Star nods. But his shooting efficiency is pretty consistently awful, and he's basically NEVER in his career associated with a particularly good offense (and seems to provide no lift at all).
Perhaps something of the Rajon Rondo of his generation?? And like Rondo, he doesn't appear to have much range. He takes three shots from outside 16' in this half (although one of those was a 60' heave on a busted play to beat the shotclock [good awareness to get it away]), missing them all. But what's more is that there were multiple instances where Havlicek sagged WAY off of Rodgers; sometimes even as Rodgers dribbled to within 17-18 ft of the basket, Hondo would still be sagged a few feet off. And Rodgers was still mostly disinclined to shoot from there.
Similar to Cousy, Rodgers could REALLY move quickly with the ball in the open court (which again: SO hard to do by early 1960s ball-handling rules; when you can't shove the ball out ahead of you as you take long sprinting strides [because to do so you'd have to put your hand on the side of the ball, which is a carry], it's so hard to move at their speed).
And I must admit Rodgers looks like an AMAZING ball-handler for the day; in addition to the open-court speed, he had some behind the back dribbles, a spin move, etc.
He's very very good at getting into the lane; just not very good at finishing. To be fair, the Warriors don't look like they have other true creators (other than maybe Wilt).
Rodgers was terrible shooter, much worse than Cousy for example. He's also not good at finishing under the basket, as he wasn't vertical or tall enough. I agree that he was very good ball handler and very crafty passer.
Wilt
So this video is only the 2nd half (and only about 90% of it at that, with perhaps 2+ minutes missing).......and Wilt still had 17 pts and 15 reb
otoh, he also had 3 turnovers, but still.
Still would like to see him be even more aggressive in the post.
One of these turnovers is very dubious three seconds call. I like Wilt's agressiveness on offesive glass here.
Heinsohn
Tommy's taking some wild shots in this game. He goes on a bit of heater for a stretch, though, ultimately finishing 7/15 from the field in this clip. He makes one REALLY nice assist to Russell as well.
He seems like he gets gassed easier than some on the roster......might be all that smoking in the locker room.
It's a known fact that Tommy wasn't the best conditioned player in the league back then. He also aged quite poorly and it was his second to last season.
Meschery
It's too bad Meschery has an awful shooting night (I know he's a better shooter than this); might have been the difference between the Warriors losing and the Warriors winning.
Rodgers shoots poorly too (even by his standards), and you can see that the Warriors are a combined 15/47 (32%) in this video, while the Celtics completely run over them in the 2nd half.
Meschery was Warriors only scorint option outside of Wilt. I think that it was a bit too much to ask for him, although he was a good player.