Did we give up on Cameron Payne too early?

ArtMorte · Post #1 » by **ArtMorte** » Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:47 pm

He got picked up the Suns and did a great job for them in the bubble both defensively and offensively.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/payneca01.html

While he's a flawed player, I'm not sure either of Arci or Dunn are better than him. Should we have kept him?

ThisGuyFawkes · Post #2 » by **ThisGuyFawkes** » Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:53 pm

Nah. We don't know if he's actually the real deal yet. Small sample size. And even if he turns out to be a late bloomer, it wasn't worth keeping him around to find out. Hindsight is 20/20, but we definitely made the correct call.

GusFring · Post #3 » by **GusFring** » Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:57 pm

No, he's one of the worst NBA players I've ever seen. Spencer Dinwiddie though? Yes.

pipfan · Post #4 » by **pipfan** » Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:07 pm

He was one of my least favorite Bulls of all time. So many things not to like.

I don't care if he becomes a stud-he was terrible when he was here, and he seemed like a punk too

IliketheBullsNBearstoo · Post #5 » by **IliketheBullsNBearstoo** » Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:18 pm

RoundMoundOfRebound · Post #6 » by **RoundMoundOfRebound** » Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:25 pm

Post #7 » by **HomoSapien** » Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:36 pm

I think Dunn is unequivocally better than Payne. Payne was a walking disaster when we had him, and though he played nicely for the Suns it was just an 8 game stretch in a completely different setting than what he'll normally be experiencing, so I'd hold off on buying too much into any progression.

Also, unless he really blossoms, it's not the hardest thing in the world to find a dependable backup point guard in this guard-heavy era of basketball.

transplant · Post #8 » by **transplant** » Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:47 pm

Probably not, but it's a fair question. He played well for the Suns in the bubble.

Post #9 » by **HomoSapien** » Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:49 pm

If we're talking about point guards we let go too early, then DJ Augustin should be on this list. He actually won us games, was young at the time, and would still be an important veteran presence on our current squad.

sco · Post #10 » by **sco** » Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:50 pm

I mean, scoring guard off the bench isn't something to lament all that much.

That said, it does speak to the time it takes for some guys to get comfortable in the NBA.

Grodoboldo · Post #11 » by **Grodoboldo** » Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:52 pm

Look, for the past years, we just don't know how to develop players, period. Markannen, Carter Jr, Payne, Dinwiddie, etc.
The problem is not time related, it's staff related.
We have a short and incompetent staff.

Dominator83 · Post #12 » by **Dominator83** » Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:33 pm

Grodoboldo wrote:Look, for the past years, we just don't know how to develop players, period. Markannen, Carter Jr, Payne, Dinwiddie, etc.
The problem is not time related, it's staff related.
We have a short and incompetent staff.

Thats why we need a guy like Atkinson at the helm. He gets more out of less. Even as much as we for some reason rag on Thibs, he always got more out of less too. Nate looked great with him, Augustin who was picked off the scrap heap, Bellinelli, hell he even made John Lucas the 3rd useful.

Our development has been piss poor, probably bottom of the league

Post #13 » by **HomoSapien** » Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:43 pm

Dominater wrote:
Grodoboldo wrote:Look, for the past years, we just don't know how to develop players, period. Markannen, Carter Jr, Payne, Dinwiddie, etc.
The problem is not time related, it's staff related.
We have a short and incompetent staff.

Thats why we need a guy like Atkinson at the helm. He gets more out of less. Even as much as we for some reason rag on Thibs, he always got more out of less too. Nate looked great with him, Augustin who was picked off the scrap heap, Bellinelli, hell he even made John Lucas the 3rd useful.

Our development has been piss poor, probably bottom of the league

It really has, and it diminishes the trade value of our guys as well. With proper development, Lauri should be the type of young player who could be the centerpiece of a big-time trade (like AD-level trades), but right now his value is quickly going down the drain. We have 8 players who were selected in the lottery on this team, yet it feels like we don't have that much talent. Something's not adding up.

MrSparkle · Post #14 » by **MrSparkle** » Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:50 pm

Overstuffing the refrigerator with young prospects at 1 position is a time-proven recipe for failure. It works 1% of the time. Pax got lucky with his 04/05 Bulls (which went onto to decline for 4 years straight), and he decided it was worth re-visiting that approach again.

Your young PG (singular) should be given the keys to work through their mistakes, have a veteran mentor, have a good relationship/trust with the coach/organization, and they need to be relatively healthy, or else every time they come back, the whole team's rhythm is screwed up.

Follow these basic principles, and the whole premise of trading for Payne should've gone out the window. IMO, through good or bad, they should've chosen one PG from the gulag to develop; split the minutes with Rondo, and callen it a wrap.

Rondo - Grant - MCW - Canaan (and infamously waiving Dinwiddie, the actual score of the off-season)... While you have two "point" wings (Jimmy and Wade)... And you throw in Payne mid-season?

GarPax should've been kindly removed from office in 2017. Then they added Dunn and Arci while dumping Rondo and keeping Grant and Payne. Oh yeah, even better. Why not have 4 young PGs compete for Hoiberg's love.

That stretch was infuriating. To have a former championship PG (Paxson) VP enabling these decisions, it is beyond me. I don't know what they were expecting, but I could've told anybody and their mom that not one of those PGs was going to develop into anything special. Not only because each had a red flag, but also because not one was given the opportunity to properly develop.

And then to continue it for a 4th year in a row... Sato/Dunn/Coby/Arci/Shaq with a high-usage chucker in Zach and a coach who didn't give a damn about calling offensive plays... Thank god we have a new VP/GM.

50% of the game is just finding rhythm. You won't win a championship, but if you play TJ McConnell or Arci for 30 mpg, they will get the team running more smoothly then if you play a roulette of 15 mpg bursts for 5 different ball-handlers every night. I am baffled that these million-dollar pro-heads don't understand that... Coming from somebody who didn't play beyond Junior-Varsity basketball, every competitive basketball camp I ever participated in, the volunteer coaches would designate one lead ball-handler and preach rhythm and pace. Mateen Cleaves wasn't Magic Johnson running MSU, but 3 years leading the post, he led them to a chip. His NBA career exemplified his mediocre-ness: but what did he have at MSU? RHYTHM.

So good riddance Boylen, and good riddance Hoiball and GarPax.

Please let's see the ball stay in Coby's hands for a majority of the game next year, unless they decide he's not the PG of the future.

ArtMorte · Post #15 » by **ArtMorte** » Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:52 pm

mlitney01 wrote:Nah. We don't know if he's actually the real deal yet. Small sample size. And even if he turns out to be a late bloomer, it wasn't worth keeping him around to find out. Hindsight is 20/20, but we definitely made the correct call.

I know it's a small sample size, but even so, I can't help thinking that none of our point guards - including Satoransky - would have performed as well as Payne did for the Suns... It's just kinda disappointing.

MrSparkle · Post #16 » by **MrSparkle** » Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:56 am

ArtMorte wrote:
mlitney01 wrote:Nah. We don't know if he's actually the real deal yet. Small sample size. And even if he turns out to be a late bloomer, it wasn't worth keeping him around to find out. Hindsight is 20/20, but we definitely made the correct call.

I know it's a small sample size, but even so, I can't help thinking that none of our point guards - including Satoransky - would have performed as well as Payne did for the Suns... It's just kinda disappointing.

I’m pretty sure Arci would be a fine 20 mpg backup PG in a more established system. Better than Payne IMO.

I also think Sato, Dunn are capable of that role. I think Coby can be a very good starting PG.

Key is just establishing their role and not playing musical chairs.

TheFinishSniper · Post #17 » by **TheFinishSniper** » Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:06 am

Red8911 · Post #18 » by **Red8911** » Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:34 am

Hell no, if anything they kept him way too long !! That dude pissed me off every time he played.

CjayC · Post #19 » by **CjayC** » Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:59 am

GusFring wrote:No, he's one of the worst NBA players I've ever seen. Spencer Dinwiddie though? Yes.

I was so mad about Dinwiddie. It was obvious he was playing better than Grant, and some people here were still justifying the move just because we trade assets for Grant. :banghead:

GusFring · Post #20 » by **GusFring** » Wed Aug 19, 2020 4:33 am

CjayC wrote:
GusFring wrote:No, he's one of the worst NBA players I've ever seen. Spencer Dinwiddie though? Yes.

I was so mad about Dinwiddie. It was obvious he was playing better than Grant, and some people here were still justifying the move just because we trade assets for Grant.

Grant was so terrible.