2020 Season/Offseason (FA/Trade) Speculation - the Season Resumes

[King4Day]

Listening to NBA radio, they're talking about how Philly is on the hook for around 150 mil in cap next season (Simmons, Embiid, Harris, Horford.
Unless there is an amnesty, I have to think one of them (not Horford) will be moved.

Maybe they can get a better deal somewhere but offering them Ayton and Oubre in a deal for Embiid should be considered. Let's them have control of a talented young center and plenty of cap space if that's an issue.

As for why the Suns would/should do it. Yes, I agree Embiid is often hurt, but I have us with 4 years left of Booker on this team. You really can't mess around and hope Ayton turns into something when a player like Embiid could be available. Embiid, if healthy, makes this team a serious playoff contender

[King4Day]

Thinking further, the big issue with the Embiid/Simmons pairing is Simmons' lack of shooting. If you swap he and DA, he suddenly is surrounded by shooters and can open the lane up more. And Embiid can shoot pretty well if needed too.
Just something to ponder. My guess is we see a Simmons for CJ McCollum type of deal instead.

[WeekapaugGroove]

Would you do Ayton, Oubre, and Jerome for Embiid? Works perfectly salary wise.

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Yes, but I don't know why they would.

I don't actually think Philly will trade Embiid this summer, the fans there love him too much.

Now eventually I do think they break him and Ben Simmons up but I'd expect they give it a try with another coach and I'd guess Simmons is more likely of the two to get traded at some point.

Value wise considering Embiids/Aytons age difference and Embiids injury history and the simple fact you rarely get 100% value trading a star player that's probably not too far off from what a trade would look like hypothetically speaking, probably take an extra 1st or so from the suns.

For Embiid a lineup of Rubio, Booker, bridges, Cam is just about the exact group you'd want around him. Great spacing and two guards who can get him the ball. A second star in Booker who can take over late in a game. They'd be a really good team.

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[jsierra1985]

i will probably get alot of sh*t for this but if im the suns i would try to move ayton for an all star if they can. Ayton is soft his motor sucks. I am still pissed we missed out on doncic even though i understood why ayton was the pick. To be honest its frustrating to even watch him play often since i was under the impression he was this high motor aggressive player. I would even look into see what the t wolves want for KAT because at the end of the day we have a couple year left with booker who is about to enter his prime and cant rely on ayton at all. Booker will leave if we dont upgrade. I love what we did in the bubble but at the end of the day it was 8 games and some teams sat there starters (not taking anything away from the suns though)

[bwgood77]

I think Oubre v. Markkanen is a tough call. Markkanen has not been the shooter you'd think in the NBA. His motion is awesome but he only hits at a 34% clip. That isn't any better than Oubre really. Markkanen is a better passer, but Oubre has more athletic upside, particularly as a defender. You might be trading a guy with more versatility in Oubre for a cheaper salary essentially. I do like Lauri though, and I think his % will come up. Guys with size who can really shoot are invaluable, so I'd probably do it, but it would be based solely on believing he can become a near 40% 3 point shooter, which I think he can. He was one of the greatest shooting college big from 3 of all time.

I'm surprised so many would want to trade Ayton for Embiid. If we're moving away from Ayton why would we grab the player whose upside is most similar? I'd rather try to trade a boatload of picks for Simmons than move Ayton and a bunch of stuff for the more expensive, more injury prone version of Ayton's upside. It's true Ayton may never reach his upside, but he has improved a ton in just a year, and is ahead of Embiid at the same stage. It's not like we have an aging roster here and can't wait on Ayton, who is already an above average starting center and probably jumps to top 7 or 8 next year. I think All Star by 2022 is not that crazy.

People are overrating the bubble and assuming we're a title contender or something and that Ayton is doomed to suck. His mindset needs to change on offense, but coming into the NBA he was a horrid defender and his mindset there did a complete 180, so why do people assume he'll be a passive mid range shooter who doesn't shoot 3's for his entire NBA career when we have now started seeing him shoot a bunch of 3s?

I am a little surprised people are down on Ayton as much as they are. I was pretty wowed by his defensive development this year. Of course he showed lapses on D in the bubble and still needs a lot of work on help and team D, but he was WAY better on this side than his rookie year, and people seemed really high on him after his rookie year. He could be more aggressive on offense, and I wish he would just dunk it more often, and I hope he does do that, but that's just never been his game....so if it changes it would be slowly. A lot of bigs are effective. His efficiency did dip in his second year so he needs to get that up.

But he also came in the bubble showing he can hit the 3, which a lot of people were saying he needed to add and saying it would be big.

All in all he played in fewer than 40 games this season (and fewer than 110 total), and made a lot of strides most of the season on defense. I am not sure why he looked worse in the bubble, but the good thing is, we saw it now and not to start next year, as did coaches, and they can work to improve on things.

This is the player we drafted...but with much improved defense and an improving 3. A ton of people wanted to draft this player. He's only better than when we drafted him. A lot of these concerns were why many of us were leaning Doncic, but we have him and he is only better than that player we took that everyone was really excited about.

[GoodBehavior]

I would trade for Ben Simmons in a heartbeat, even if it means Booker. He's criminally underrated and is a top ten player in this league. Even though he can't shoot, he's a mismatch every night for opposing team: can switch between the 3 and 4 positions seamlessly and plays elite defense against anyone in the forward positions. You pair him with a center that can space the floor (Bayes, Lopez, etc), he would be a perennially MVP candidate and command an elite playoff team, year in and year out. Philly would be nuts to let him go.

I wouldn't touch Embiid. Without Simmons, his team has been trash. Even his own coach has reservations about playing bully ball. Embiid has been surrounded by decent talent his entire career, and has been a colossal let down. It would have been much, much worse had Jimmy Butler not rescue them from embarrassment last year. You pair Embiid with lesser talent, and I think you're going to have a bad time. For all this supposed talent, dude is averaging just 21.6 points in 21 career playoff games. And for all the defensive talk, Boston for three years in a row is feasting on his pick and roll defense.

Booker/Embiid doesn't work. Embiid is not much of a pick and roll guy, if at all; and Book needs a roller. Booker plays well in a fast pace environment (like most guards), and is kinda mediocre when things slows down. Embiid is obviously the flip side. Embiid also plays predominantly on the left side of the ball, and that's where Book likes to drive. Booker lives on the left side of the court. Rubio / Booker / Embiid would be terrible.

[bwgood77]

Just need to correct some things. I'm not calling you out personally or anything, and I'm not denying Ayton can become a great player for us. But for the sake of discussion it's probably best to correct some things here.

If we're moving away from Ayton why would we grab the player whose upside is most similar? more injury prone version of Ayton's upside.

They are very different players. Embiid has 45% of his 2PA assisted, Ayton has 75%. Embiid has also been knocking down a shave over 1.0 3PG since his rookie year. Embiid's FG% is 48% and Ayton's is 57%. So again, there is a massive difference in the way they play basketball.

and is ahead of Embiid at the same stage.

Embiid was injured at the same age. In Embiids rookie season he averaged 20/8 and 2.5 bpg. Ayton's rookie season was 16/10 and 1 bpg. Embiid also averaged 7.9 FTA in his rookie year whilst Ayton averaged 2.7 FTA. We'll see how it shakes out next year when Ayton is the same age as Embiid was in his rookie season. But it looks like Embiid at the least was definitely superior rim protector and was a much more skilled offensive player.

Ayton, who is already an above average starting center

He is closer to average. He gets his points off spoon feeds on offense, and plays good defense. I posted this earlier but what we see in game is backed pretty closely by 538's RAPTOR ratings (sort by centers) https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2020-nba-player-ratings/ Defensively speaking he is probably above average (+3.0 def RAPTOR), but his offense drags him down(-1.2 off RAPTOR. Overall raptor has him around 20th.

we have now started seeing him shoot a bunch of 3s?

He is not shooting "a bunch of 3s" now. He shot 1.4 3PA in the bubble.

Again, the good news is that he defends pretty damn well. It's just the offense that holds him back. It seems like he'd have to transform himself pretty remarkably as a player however as the numbers tell a story that he's a vastly different player than Embiid, or other offensive centers. For reference to another star center, Jokic has about 50% of his 2PA assisted, which is about in the same range as Joel Embiid.

I think it's fair to say right now he is a much more similar style of player to Rudy Gobert or Clint Capela than Embiid.

What we want is for Ayton's FG% to go down (I mean, ideally he always shoots 57% but that's probably impossible), which should suggest he's expanding his game by creating more of his own offense and taking more 3s, and getting to the line more. Like you said, improving his handle will allow him to do these things, but right now he doesn't have that handle and it shows in his stats.

I actually don't think Embiids offense is particularly impressive. I think he tries to force shots too much inside on bad post ups and fadeaways, where he would be better served making a play for a teammate or passing back out.

Yeah, I don't think he's like Embiid at all.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Listening to NBA radio, they're talking about how Philly is on the hook for around 150 mil in cap next season (Simmons, Embiid, Harris, Horford.
Unless there is an amnesty, I have to think one of them (not Horford) will be moved.

Maybe they can get a better deal somewhere but offering them Ayton and Oubre in a deal for Embiid should be considered. Let's them have control of a talented young center and plenty of cap space if that's an issue.

As for why the Suns would/should do it. Yes, I agree Embiid is often hurt, but I have us with 4 years left of Booker on this team. You really can't mess around and hope Ayton turns into something when a player like Embiid could be available. Embiid, if healthy, makes this team a serious playoff contender

Embiid would definitely be intriguing!

However, I don't think that they currently have any plans to move EITHER Embiid or Simmons. When it has been discussed on the trade board and with Philly fans repeatedly, They have been pretty adamant that they'd prefer to move any/ all of Harris, Horford, Richardson using any available measures of draft assets and or complimentary players to teams with premium cap space.

I think they'll definitely look to teams that haven't been in the playoffs or even competitive for a long time, Suchbas the Knicks, Maybe Atlanta, Charlotte, Detroit, Sacramento, to try and offload some big contracts using any available assets to push a deal through!

Maybe we could possibly get into the deal for some players, and /or other assets, If we're willing to take back salary. But I'm not really sure what exactly we'd prefer to add?

Maybe one of these trades would be palatable? **( IF Vassell or Toppin or Hayes is off the board, Then maybe this:

1- Phoenix/ Philly/Detroit/ New York[/u
http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y27kwdmg

- Phoenix sends Kelly Oubre to Detroit for Kennard and the expiring contract of John Henson( 9 million).

- Philly saves 4 million up front, And up to 35 million in 2021 with Randle having only a 4 million partial guarantee! They can buy him out and save 42 million going forward. **Philly sends their 21st and 36th picks to Detroit as part of the deal.

- Detroit sends Kennard and Henson's expiring to Phoenix, But gets Oubre/ 21st / 36th picks.

- New York Gets two premium Big name players in Harris and Richardson, Which can both play solid defense for Thibodeau, And Richardson can also share point guard duties and guard multiple positions for them. New York now gets much closer to being a playoff team. They also keep their high lotto pick this year, But send the [u]25th pick and the DALLAS UNPROTECTED FIRST to Phoenix as part of the deal.

So now, Phoenix has Kennard, The 10th pick/ 25th pick/ Dallas 2021 unprotected first.
** Phoenix buys a 2nd round pick from Sacramento ( 35th pick).
10- Draft Vassell ( backup 2/3).
25- Draft Paul Reed ( backup 3/4).
35- Daniel Oturu ( backup Center).
In free agency, Sign Jerami Grant, Use the MLE for Augustine. Then bring back Saric and Baynes ( short term deals) with 2nd yr Team options.

2- Phoenix/ Philly/Chicago/ New York
http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y5bf6ehc
- Phoenix gets- Richardson/ Markannen/ 21st / 27th picks.
- Philly gets 12 million in cap space this summer, And over 30.5 million in savings in 2021. They take back Satoransky/ Ellington/ Elfrid Payton/ D Smith. Sato and Ellington provide a ton more shooting for them, Payton and D Smith, Just provide additional backcourt depth but can be moved or stretched if needed!
- Chicago gets Randle/ Oubre / 10th pick. Both Oubre and Randle expire **( Randle only 4 million guarantee) in 2021, Giving them a ton of additional cap space if needed. Their new front office can use the 7th and the 10th pick to draft a high potential guard and big man compliment.
- New York gets Tobias Harris / Thaddeus Young ( partial guarantee in 2021/ Ty Jerome *( New York Prodigy) originally to give them added depth at shooting guard. They keep their high lotto pick, And also keep their Dallas unprotected first too.

Overall, Everyone wins in this trade. Phoenix addresses both needs very well! Philly saves a boatload of money and adds more shooting/ passing. Chicago gets A premium value 4 in Randle, They also get Oubre, Whom they Covet and the 10th pick ( 2 lotto picks) for their new front office to use however they see fit! And New York finally gets premium value players in Tobias Harris, Thaddeus Young, and also a hometown ( Brooklyn prodigy)? In Ty Jerome to sell the fans on. And Young has a partial guarantee of 7 million in 21' So they can stretch him or trade him for more cap if needed. But both Harris and Young are really solid defenders, So they should fit very well in Thibs' scheme!

[BobbieL]

Regarding Philly: I am still trying to figure out who thought Embid, Harris and Horford was a good idea

I know the GM is Elton Brand but thats just an odd combination of players.

Not sure what team would be a fit for Horford but that is the player that needs to be traded. Possibly Simmons too

[WeekapaugGroove]

Regarding Philly: I am still trying to figure out who thought Embid, Harris and Horford was a good idea

I know the GM is Elton Brand but thats just an odd combination of players.

Not sure what team would be a fit for Horford but that is the player that needs to be traded. Possibly Simmons too

Horford would cost assets to trade at this point so I'd guess they are stuck with him.

He's an important cautionary lesson for those that suggest signing older FAs, sometimes they go down hill fast.

Actually Philly has a few more cautionary tales on their team. Like avoid trading a bunch for a B+ type player that will be a FA and you feel forced to play A+ player money to. Harris

Be careful acquiring overachievers from teams with great coaches because they might not be as good outside that environment. Richardson

If you're questioning if you have the right coach you probably don't so just make the change. Brett Brown

And mostly don't treat building a team like a fantasy team, fit matters.

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[Blonde]

Clearly Simmons would be a better target for us than Embiid. But Simmons and Ayton fit would have the same issues if not worse than Simmons and Embiid. I would be interested in a 3-way swap where the major pieces are Ayton (plus pick/filler) to Washington, Beal to Philly, and Simmons to Phoenix. Though I’ve been on record saying I prefer Beal to Simmons at this point.

[WeekapaugGroove]

Clearly Simmons would be a better target for us than Embiid. But Simmons and Ayton fit would have the same issues if not worse than Simmons and Embiid. I would be interested in a 3-way swap where the major pieces are Ayton (plus pick/filler) to Washington, Beal to Philly, and Simmons to Phoenix. Though I’ve been on record saying I prefer Beal to Simmons at this point.

Yeah I'd be interested in something like this. My concern would be if the suns are creative enough to build the type of team and system around Simmons to really get the most out of his talents.

With Simmons you should play at a super fast pace where he can grab and go because he's unstoppable in the open court. Also put a bunch of similar sized switchy defenders around him and just be a pain in the ass defensive team.

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[BobbieL]

Regarding Philly: I am still trying to figure out who thought Embid, Harris and Horford was a good idea

I know the GM is Elton Brand but thats just an odd combination of players.

Not sure what team would be a fit for Horford but that is the player that needs to be traded. Possibly Simmons too

Horford would cost assets to trade at this point so I'd guess they are stuck with him.

He's an important cautionary lesson for those that suggest signing older FAs, sometimes they go down hill fast.

Actually Philly has a few more cautionary tales on their team. Like avoid trading a bunch for a B+ type player that will be a FA and you feel forced to play A+ player money to. Harris

Be careful acquiring overachievers from teams with great coaches because they might not be as good outside that environment. Richardson

If you're questioning if you have the right coach you probably don't so just make the change. Brett Brown

And mostly don't treat building a team like a fantasy team, fit matters.

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Brown will probably be fired. They might have to move Simmons or Embid to try to re-balance the roster
Horford at his age and years
basically three years left - even in year 3 he is guaranteed $14m

When I bring up a guy like Millsap - its one year deal.
Heck most people I bring up this offseason - are one year deals. Except maybe Saric

[WeekapaugGroove]

Regarding Philly: I am still trying to figure out who thought Embid, Harris and Horford was a good idea

I know the GM is Elton Brand but thats just an odd combination of players.

Not sure what team would be a fit for Horford but that is the player that needs to be traded. Possibly Simmons too

Horford would cost assets to trade at this point so I'd guess they are stuck with him.

He's an important cautionary lesson for those that suggest signing older FAs, sometimes they go down hill fast.

Actually Philly has a few more cautionary tales on their team. Like avoid trading a bunch for a B+ type player that will be a FA and you feel forced to play A+ player money to. Harris

Be careful acquiring overachievers from teams with great coaches because they might not be as good outside that environment. Richardson

If you're questioning if you have the right coach you probably don't so just make the change. Brett Brown

And mostly don't treat building a team like a fantasy team, fit matters.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using RealGM mobile app

Brown will probably be fired. They might have to move Simmons or Embid to try to re-balance the roster
Horford at his age and years
basically three years left - even in year 3 he is guaranteed $14m

When I bring up a guy like Millsap - its one year deal.
Heck most people I bring up this offseason - are one year deals. Except maybe Saric

I wasn't calling anyone out specifically

One year deals are fine for damn near anyone.

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[GoodBehavior]

Clearly Simmons would be a better target for us than Embiid. But Simmons and Ayton fit would have the same issues if not worse than Simmons and Embiid. I would be interested in a 3-way swap where the major pieces are Ayton (plus pick/filler) to Washington, Beal to Philly, and Simmons to Phoenix. Though I’ve been on record saying I prefer Beal to Simmons at this point.

Yeah I'd be interested in something like this. My concern would be if the suns are creative enough to build the type of team and system around Simmons to really get the most out of his talents.

With Simmons you should play at a super fast pace where he can grab and go because he's unstoppable in the open court. Also put a bunch of similar sized switchy defenders around him and just be a pain in the ass defensive team.

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Ben Simmons post something like a 20/10/7 stat line without Embiid with the current defensive-oriented Sixers team. He's going to be just fine with anything James Jones put together. There was a game against the Lebron/AD's Lakers w/o Embiid, and Simmons was easily the best player on court. Lakers had no answer for him in the open court or the half court. Immensely versatile: rolling towards the rim, posting up players, and taking everyone off the dribble. They even play him at the 5 position.

I respect Beal but he's not in the same class as Simmons.

[WeekapaugGroove]

Clearly Simmons would be a better target for us than Embiid. But Simmons and Ayton fit would have the same issues if not worse than Simmons and Embiid. I would be interested in a 3-way swap where the major pieces are Ayton (plus pick/filler) to Washington, Beal to Philly, and Simmons to Phoenix. Though I’ve been on record saying I prefer Beal to Simmons at this point.

Yeah I'd be interested in something like this. My concern would be if the suns are creative enough to build the type of team and system around Simmons to really get the most out of his talents.

With Simmons you should play at a super fast pace where he can grab and go because he's unstoppable in the open court. Also put a bunch of similar sized switchy defenders around him and just be a pain in the ass defensive team.

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Ben Simmons post something like a 20/10/7 stat line without Embiid with the current defensive-oriented Sixers team. He's going to be just fine with anything James Jones put together. There was a game against the Lebron/AD's Lakers w/o Embiid, and Simmons was easily the best player on court. Lakers had no answer for him in the open court or the half court. Immensely versatile: rolling towards the rim, posting up players, and taking everyone off the dribble. They even play him at the 5 position.

I respect Beal but he's not in the same class as Simmons.

Oh yeah I like Beal a lot but I'd absolutely take Simmons over him especially since we already have Booker. Simmons gives you someone to guard the beastly wings you'll face if you want a deep playoff run. Him and Mikal would be a frightening combo on D. (Sixers have to regret that trade)

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[Slim Charless]

Clearly Simmons would be a better target for us than Embiid. But Simmons and Ayton fit would have the same issues if not worse than Simmons and Embiid. I would be interested in a 3-way swap where the major pieces are Ayton (plus pick/filler) to Washington, Beal to Philly, and Simmons to Phoenix. Though I’ve been on record saying I prefer Beal to Simmons at this point.

Yeah I'd be interested in something like this. My concern would be if the suns are creative enough to build the type of team and system around Simmons to really get the most out of his talents.

With Simmons you should play at a super fast pace where he can grab and go because he's unstoppable in the open court. Also put a bunch of similar sized switchy defenders around him and just be a pain in the ass defensive team.

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Just need to correct some things. I'm not calling you out personally or anything, and I'm not denying Ayton can become a great player for us. But for the sake of discussion it's probably best to correct some things here.

If we're moving away from Ayton why would we grab the player whose upside is most similar? more injury prone version of Ayton's upside.

They are very different players. Embiid has 45% of his 2PA assisted, Ayton has 75%. Embiid has also been knocking down a shave over 1.0 3PG since his rookie year. Embiid's FG% is 48% and Ayton's is 57%. So again, there is a massive difference in the way they play basketball.

and is ahead of Embiid at the same stage.

Embiid was injured at the same age. In Embiids rookie season he averaged 20/8 and 2.5 bpg. Ayton's rookie season was 16/10 and 1 bpg. Embiid also averaged 7.9 FTA in his rookie year whilst Ayton averaged 2.7 FTA. We'll see how it shakes out next year when Ayton is the same age as Embiid was in his rookie season. But it looks like Embiid at the least was definitely superior rim protector and was a much more skilled offensive player.

Ayton, who is already an above average starting center

He is closer to average. He gets his points off spoon feeds on offense, and plays good defense. I posted this earlier but what we see in game is backed pretty closely by 538's RAPTOR ratings (sort by centers) https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2020-nba-player-ratings/ Defensively speaking he is probably above average (+3.0 def RAPTOR), but his offense drags him down(-1.2 off RAPTOR. Overall raptor has him around 20th.

we have now started seeing him shoot a bunch of 3s?

He is not shooting "a bunch of 3s" now. He shot 1.4 3PA in the bubble.

Again, the good news is that he defends pretty damn well. It's just the offense that holds him back. It seems like he'd have to transform himself pretty remarkably as a player however as the numbers tell a story that he's a vastly different player than Embiid, or other offensive centers. For reference to another star center, Jokic has about 50% of his 2PA assisted, which is about in the same range as Joel Embiid.

I think it's fair to say right now he is a much more similar style of player to Rudy Gobert or Clint Capela than Embiid.

What we want is for Ayton's FG% to go down (I mean, ideally he always shoots 57% but that's probably impossible), which should suggest he's expanding his game by creating more of his own offense and taking more 3s, and getting to the line more. Like you said, improving his handle will allow him to do these things, but right now he doesn't have that handle and it shows in his stats.

I actually don't think Embiids offense is particularly impressive. I think he tries to force shots too much inside on bad post ups and fadeaways, where he would be better served making a play for a teammate or passing back out.

Yeah, I don't think he's like Embiid at all.

I agree that I don't see the point of trading Embiid for Ayton as Embiid seems to be what we we would want Ayton to eventually become (only healthier). While these past 2 years haven't been the best with Ayton he hasn't been terrible and can most certainly become an all star/NBA type of player. You would think of all fan bases Phoenix Sun fans would know the problems of bailing on talent too soon. Look what happened when we dumped TJ-he's either best or second player on the Pacers and is a fantastic bargain. Also, say what you want about coaching but the fact remains we gave up on IT and he went to Boston and immediately became a MVP candidate. Off all the guys that the Dubs played this season the only ones that were really interested in bringing back was Chriss/Bender and they're a pretty smart organization.

Is it that crazy to think that our 22 yr old 7'1 250 lb center that has a 40 in vert can improve? Especially since he's only played around 100 or so games. I mean yes, Embiid had better numbers starting out but he also played with Simmons-one of the better point guards in the NBA. Ayton has had a half season of Rubio so you can't really complain about him being spoon fed then go on and not mention how Joel got an even better treatment from Simmons.

IF we were to trade him we should wait and see how this Giannis thing plays out. If he decides to leave then a sign and trade would seem to work pretty well for both teams. But for Embiid, I wouldn't like it especially with his very concerning injury issues. I've already mentioned numerous times about how I think Simmons would fit with so I won't do that again but I think he'd fit well as he can do damage inside and let Ayton float and hit that little FT area shot that seems to always fall for him. Speaking of FTs, he needs to shoot more of them obviously and that will come with just more aggression. That's reason #1 of why we need to keep him, 90% of his problems can be solved with just more confidence/aggression. As soon as he realizes he's the best big on the court, its over for the other guys. We don't want that to happen on another team.

[Wilber85]

i will probably get alot of sh*t for this but if im the suns i would try to move ayton for an all star if they can. Ayton is soft his motor sucks. I am still pissed we missed out on doncic even though i understood why ayton was the pick. To be honest its frustrating to even watch him play often since i was under the impression he was this high motor aggressive player. I would even look into see what the t wolves want for KAT because at the end of the day we have a couple year left with booker who is about to enter his prime and cant rely on ayton at all. Booker will leave if we dont upgrade. I love what we did in the bubble but at the end of the day it was 8 games and some teams sat there starters (not taking anything away from the suns though)

I think Ayton will be better than KAT, so I will probably get **** for that.

Only player I would trade Ayton for would be Giannis, or AD for bigs next to Booker.

[Wilber85]

Clearly Simmons would be a better target for us than Embiid. But Simmons and Ayton fit would have the same issues if not worse than Simmons and Embiid. I would be interested in a 3-way swap where the major pieces are Ayton (plus pick/filler) to Washington, Beal to Philly, and Simmons to Phoenix. Though I’ve been on record saying I prefer Beal to Simmons at this point.

Yeah I'd be interested in something like this. My concern would be if the suns are creative enough to build the type of team and system around Simmons to really get the most out of his talents.

With Simmons you should play at a super fast pace where he can grab and go because he's unstoppable in the open court. Also put a bunch of similar sized switchy defenders around him and just be a pain in the ass defensive team.

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Just need to correct some things. I'm not calling you out personally or anything, and I'm not denying Ayton can become a great player for us. But for the sake of discussion it's probably best to correct some things here.


They are very different players. Embiid has 45% of his 2PA assisted, Ayton has 75%. Embiid has also been knocking down a shave over 1.0 3PG since his rookie year. Embiid's FG% is 48% and Ayton's is 57%. So again, there is a massive difference in the way they play basketball.


Embiid was injured at the same age. In Embiids rookie season he averaged 20/8 and 2.5 bpg. Ayton's rookie season was 16/10 and 1 bpg. Embiid also averaged 7.9 FTA in his rookie year whilst Ayton averaged 2.7 FTA. We'll see how it shakes out next year when Ayton is the same age as Embiid was in his rookie season. But it looks like Embiid at the least was definitely superior rim protector and was a much more skilled offensive player.


He is closer to average. He gets his points off spoon feeds on offense, and plays good defense. I posted this earlier but what we see in game is backed pretty closely by 538's RAPTOR ratings (sort by centers) https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2020-nba-player-ratings/ Defensively speaking he is probably above average (+3.0 def RAPTOR), but his offense drags him down(-1.2 off RAPTOR. Overall raptor has him around 20th.


He is not shooting "a bunch of 3s" now. He shot 1.4 3PA in the bubble.

Again, the good news is that he defends pretty damn well. It's just the offense that holds him back. It seems like he'd have to transform himself pretty remarkably as a player however as the numbers tell a story that he's a vastly different player than Embiid, or other offensive centers. For reference to another star center, Jokic has about 50% of his 2PA assisted, which is about in the same range as Joel Embiid.

I think it's fair to say right now he is a much more similar style of player to Rudy Gobert or Clint Capela than Embiid.

What we want is for Ayton's FG% to go down (I mean, ideally he always shoots 57% but that's probably impossible), which should suggest he's expanding his game by creating more of his own offense and taking more 3s, and getting to the line more. Like you said, improving his handle will allow him to do these things, but right now he doesn't have that handle and it shows in his stats.

I actually don't think Embiids offense is particularly impressive. I think he tries to force shots too much inside on bad post ups and fadeaways, where he would be better served making a play for a teammate or passing back out.

Yeah, I don't think he's like Embiid at all.

I agree that I don't see the point of trading Embiid for Ayton as Embiid seems to be what we we would want Ayton to eventually become (only healthier). While these past 2 years haven't been the best with Ayton he hasn't been terrible and can most certainly become an all star/NBA type of player. You would think of all fan bases Phoenix Sun fans would know the problems of bailing on talent too soon. Look what happened when we dumped TJ-he's either best or second player on the Pacers and is a fantastic bargain. Also, say what you want about coaching but the fact remains we gave up on IT and he went to Boston and immediately became a MVP candidate. Off all the guys that the Dubs played this season the only ones that were really interested in bringing back was Chriss/Bender and they're a pretty smart organization.

Is it that crazy to think that our 22 yr old 7'1 250 lb center that has a 40 in vert can improve? Especially since he's only played around 100 or so games. I mean yes, Embiid had better numbers starting out but he also played with Simmons-one of the better point guards in the NBA. Ayton has had a half season of Rubio so you can't really complain about him being spoon fed then go on and not mention how Joel got an even better treatment from Simmons.

IF we were to trade him we should wait and see how this Giannis thing plays out. If he decides to leave then a sign and trade would seem to work pretty well for both teams. But for Embiid, I wouldn't like it especially with his very concerning injury issues. I've already mentioned numerous times about how I think Simmons would fit with so I won't do that again but I think he'd fit well as he can do damage inside and let Ayton float and hit that little FT area shot that seems to always fall for him. Speaking of FTs, he needs to shoot more of them obviously and that will come with just more aggression. That's reason #1 of why we need to keep him, 90% of his problems can be solved with just more confidence/aggression. As soon as he realizes he's the best big on the court, its over for the other guys. We don't want that to happen on another team.

Embiid first 2 seasons played (4 years in league)
22/9 avg 1.7 bpg (47% fg 77% ft)

Ayton first 2 seasons played

17/10.5 & 1.1 bpg (57% fg 75% FT)

Ayton young and improving. I will bet he it over 20 /10 next year and close to 2 bpg

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i will probably get alot of sh*t for this but if im the suns i would try to move ayton for an all star if they can. Ayton is soft his motor sucks. I am still pissed we missed out on doncic even though i understood why ayton was the pick. To be honest its frustrating to even watch him play often since i was under the impression he was this high motor aggressive player. I would even look into see what the t wolves want for KAT because at the end of the day we have a couple year left with booker who is about to enter his prime and cant rely on ayton at all. Booker will leave if we dont upgrade. I love what we did in the bubble but at the end of the day it was 8 games and some teams sat there starters (not taking anything away from the suns though)

I think Ayton will be better than KAT, so I will probably get **** for that.

Only player I would trade Ayton for would be Giannis, or AD for bigs next to Booker.

I will get sh*t for this, but I am not convinced that you can build the team around Booker. Or Ayton for that matter, until proven otherwise (which he has time to do). Ditto for Book since he so young.

We're are basking in that eight game glory of Booker going off but those bubble games are distorting reality. We were up against second and third stringers for the most part. People easily forget that post-Allstar break, Booker hasn't been great. The offense stagnated with the ball in his hand. There were people on this forum contemplating trading him.

Along the same vein, I don't think Payne is our answer to the backup point guard position. I think he can be serviceable. I also don't think Cam can command the 4 position like a Channing Frye.