Better player, 2009 LeBron or 2010 LeBron

Moderators: Clyde Frazier, Doctor MJ, trex_8063, penbeast0, PaulieWal

Better player, 2009 LeBron or 2010 LeBron?

2009 LeBron
22
65%
2010 LeBron
12
35%
 
Total votes: 34

freethedevil
Head Coach
Posts: 7,262
And1: 3,237
Joined: Dec 09, 2018
         

Re: Better player, 2009 LeBron or 2010 LeBron 

Post#21 » by freethedevil » Thu Aug 20, 2020 1:21 am

Odinn21 wrote:This is one of the cases about the difference between being better and performing better.

LeBron in 2009-10 regular season improved compared to the previous season (especially his court vision and playmaking were better). He didn't play the regular season on full throttle unlike 2008-09 season, the team still won 61 games. It's the playoffs, actually the particular Celtics series that makes a difference in this comparison.

2009-10 season has a near perfect case in this one.

There isn't one. There's a difference between how potentially good someone is and how good someone is. How good someone is is determined by how well they play
Ian Scuffling
Senior
Posts: 678
And1: 475
Joined: Dec 21, 2012

Re: Better player, 2009 LeBron or 2010 LeBron 

Post#22 » by Ian Scuffling » Fri Aug 21, 2020 2:17 pm

No-more-rings wrote:
freethedevil wrote:one is the best season in history, and the other didn't have as good of an rs and then proceeded to get injured during the playoffs.

No need to overthink this, its clearly 09 bron.

If you’re talking about the elbow thing, I don’t think that was ever really confirmed as a real thing. Even if it was i’m not willing to just use that to explain away his performance against Boston.

LMAO...The lengths the haters will go to try to disparage James is crazy. it was most definitely a real thing.
No-more-rings
Head Coach
Posts: 7,104
And1: 3,913
Joined: Oct 04, 2018

Re: Better player, 2009 LeBron or 2010 LeBron 

Post#23 » by No-more-rings » Fri Aug 21, 2020 5:26 pm

Ian Scuffling wrote:
No-more-rings wrote:
freethedevil wrote:one is the best season in history, and the other didn't have as good of an rs and then proceeded to get injured during the playoffs.

No need to overthink this, its clearly 09 bron.

If you’re talking about the elbow thing, I don’t think that was ever really confirmed as a real thing. Even if it was i’m not willing to just use that to explain away his performance against Boston.

LMAO...The lengths the haters will go to try to disparage James is crazy. it was most definitely a real thing.

I'm not a hater, i'm just not a Lebron stan possibly like yourself. My memory could be wrong but i don't even remember it being a thing until he shot those free throws in i believe it was game 4 or 5. Maybe it was there but funny that it wasn't public.
User avatar
Heej
General Manager
Posts: 8,469
And1: 9,171
Joined: Jan 14, 2011

Re: Better player, 2009 LeBron or 2010 LeBron 

Post#24 » by Heej » Fri Aug 21, 2020 5:46 pm

No-more-rings wrote:
freethedevil wrote:https://www.espn.com/nba/playoffs/2010/news/story?id=5143910

And I guess its a coincidince his shooting plummeted right after the 'make believe' elbow injury.

Conspiracy theories really are something.

“Xray and mri showed no obvious structural damage”

He admitted it bothered him for weeks but funny it wasn’t a problem a few games earlier. Lebron’s shooting has known to be streaky at times throughout his career, it’s not all that unheard of.

Look, some think he quit on the team, some think he was injured, others just think Celtics played him really well. I don’t really buy the quitting thing, but don’t know how “hurt” he was when he managed a 27/19/10 statline in game 7. I don’t think he quit, but not sure his mind wasn’t sort of elsewhere by that point in the series.

Found the guy that never had a pinched nerve before. Guess it should be expected since most of RealGM doesn't even lift lol
LeBron's NBA Cup MVP is more valuable than either of KD's Finals MVPs. This is the word of the Lord
User avatar
SideshowBob
General Manager
Posts: 9,064
And1: 6,272
Joined: Jul 16, 2010
Location: Washington DC
 

Re: Better player, 2009 LeBron or 2010 LeBron 

Post#25 » by SideshowBob » Fri Aug 21, 2020 6:17 pm

LeElbow first showed up in G4 vs. Chicago. Per my memory that was the first time it came up publicly.



0:45 & 3:55

This was before the infamous left-handed free throws in G5 at home vs. Chicago. And a whole series before Boston.
But in his home dwelling...the hi-top faded warrior is revered. *Smack!* The sound of his palm blocking the basketball... the sound of thousands rising, roaring... the sound of "get that sugar honey iced tea outta here!"
O_6
Rookie
Posts: 1,179
And1: 1,586
Joined: Aug 25, 2010

Re: Better player, 2009 LeBron or 2010 LeBron 

Post#26 » by O_6 » Fri Aug 21, 2020 6:30 pm

LeBron's 2009 playoff exit was simply significantly more graceful and impressive than his 2010 playoff exit. IMO, that's always been the reason why 2009 LeBron has been hyped so much more. In the 2009 playoffs, LeBron had a hot stretch with his jumper which made him look impossible to guard. But at the end of the day, it was just a hot stretch. 2010 LeBron ended the season in such a disappointing fashion against the Celtics with the cloud of Free Agency looming over him.

But as players during the regular season, there really wasn't much difference between the way his 2010 regular season was perceived at the time by the fans or by how impressive it was statistically. 2009 was perceived as the year where LeBron finally put it all together and lived up to his full potential, and 2010 made people realize that '09 wasn't a fluke and this kind of season was just what we should expect moving forward.

There was very minor differences. 2009 LeBron felt like he had a slightly better motor in the regular season, his game-by-game effort was just insane in 2009. Whereas in 2010, while he was still far from ever turning on the "LeCoast Mode" of later years, he seemed to be a little bit more calculated and pick his spots better while still having a great two-way motor for an offensive superstar. Athletically, there was no drop-off that I noticed, he was probably a hair quicker in '09 and stronger in '10.

I think 2010 LeBron was a tiny bit more well-rounded offensively, but 2009 LeBron got hotter with his jumper in the playoffs. Since playoffs are the most important thing, I suppose the tie goes to '09. But it's always been much closer than those who just point to their playoff numbers say.
Bidofo
Pro Prospect
Posts: 776
And1: 975
Joined: Sep 20, 2014
     

Re: Better player, 2009 LeBron or 2010 LeBron 

Post#27 » by Bidofo » Fri Aug 21, 2020 7:46 pm

The elbow injury was very much a real thing and clearly hampered him, but all it should be is added context. It was more responsible for his play in the Celtics series than any BS "quitting" narrative people like to fantasize about, but it's not an excuse and the fact of the matter is he simply played better and was more productive in the 09 playoffs. It's like 16 Curry's injury, he clearly wasn't 100% in the Finals, but that doesn't excuse his bad performance. '10 LeBron had the better RS but much worse PS.
No-more-rings
Head Coach
Posts: 7,104
And1: 3,913
Joined: Oct 04, 2018

Re: Better player, 2009 LeBron or 2010 LeBron 

Post#28 » by No-more-rings » Sat Aug 22, 2020 12:00 am

Heej wrote:
No-more-rings wrote:
freethedevil wrote:https://www.espn.com/nba/playoffs/2010/news/story?id=5143910

And I guess its a coincidince his shooting plummeted right after the 'make believe' elbow injury.

Conspiracy theories really are something.

“Xray and mri showed no obvious structural damage”

He admitted it bothered him for weeks but funny it wasn’t a problem a few games earlier. Lebron’s shooting has known to be streaky at times throughout his career, it’s not all that unheard of.

Look, some think he quit on the team, some think he was injured, others just think Celtics played him really well. I don’t really buy the quitting thing, but don’t know how “hurt” he was when he managed a 27/19/10 statline in game 7. I don’t think he quit, but not sure his mind wasn’t sort of elsewhere by that point in the series.

Found the guy that never had a pinched nerve before. Guess it should be expected since most of RealGM doesn't even lift lol

This is a pretty useless retort and don’t know how I should respond. I do lift, and i used to play basketball recreationally. I’ve broke many bones before.

Look guys, we can speculate the injury all we want, the fact remains the Celtics were a great defense who played him well. Why’s that so hard to admit?
User avatar
Heej
General Manager
Posts: 8,469
And1: 9,171
Joined: Jan 14, 2011

Re: Better player, 2009 LeBron or 2010 LeBron 

Post#29 » by Heej » Sat Aug 22, 2020 3:22 am

No-more-rings wrote:
Heej wrote:
No-more-rings wrote:“Xray and mri showed no obvious structural damage”

He admitted it bothered him for weeks but funny it wasn’t a problem a few games earlier. Lebron’s shooting has known to be streaky at times throughout his career, it’s not all that unheard of.

Look, some think he quit on the team, some think he was injured, others just think Celtics played him really well. I don’t really buy the quitting thing, but don’t know how “hurt” he was when he managed a 27/19/10 statline in game 7. I don’t think he quit, but not sure his mind wasn’t sort of elsewhere by that point in the series.

Found the guy that never had a pinched nerve before. Guess it should be expected since most of RealGM doesn't even lift lol

This is a pretty useless retort and don’t know how I should respond. I do lift, and i used to play basketball recreationally. I’ve broke many bones before.

Look guys, we can speculate the injury all we want, the fact remains the Celtics were a great defense who played him well. Why’s that so hard to admit?

Nothing hard to admit about it. Just like there shouldn't be anything hard to accept about an elbow tweak. MFs be like "why can't you just see my POV" and then completely ignore stuff that other people be saying when it suits their point lol. Dude def got a pinched nerve of some kind, that sort of stuff just happens and maybe you need to simply accept that lol
LeBron's NBA Cup MVP is more valuable than either of KD's Finals MVPs. This is the word of the Lord
Bel
Sophomore
Posts: 246
And1: 533
Joined: Jan 24, 2019
 

Re: Better player, 2009 LeBron or 2010 LeBron 

Post#30 » by Bel » Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:44 am

Lebron fanatics provide the best comedy in basketball. It's irreplaceable. Any criticism is instantly met by searching for the nearest lexcuse. Which is particularly hilarious because all during 2009-2010 the talk was 'there are no excuses this year, the Cavs have everything they need to win.'

Instead of taking Lebron's PR narrative at face value, let's look at Shaq's autobiography, who was actually there. He has always been partial towards Lebron, is quite gentle overall in the book, (and specifically ends this section with 'I wouldn't bet against Lebron, which is quite sagely written in 2011), so he can't be dismissed as a hater.

"The year we played together with the Cavaliers, I really believed we were going to win the championship. I thought we were good enough.

The Celtics were just smarter. They knocked us out of the 2010 Eastern Conference Finals and they did it by doing a great job of loading up. I was trying to tell LeBron, “Hey, if you get the ball do something fast, so they can’t get into position.” But when he got the ball and did the Jordan stare, now Kendrick Perkins can come over and meet him at the baseline. Then Paul Pierce has time to rotate. If we had moved the ball a little more, we would have had more success. You’ll never beat any team that’s standing there waiting on you.

I know everybody wants to know what really happened in those 2010 playoffs...There’s no question in Game 5 LeBron was kind of out of it. He didn’t even score a basket until late in the third quarter and was something like 1 for 11 from the perimeter. But that’s not as unusual as people think. I’ve seen plenty of superstars have a bad shooting game and get into a funk. I can remember that happening to Dominique and even Larry Bird. Shooters get rattled sometimes when they don’t shoot well. Scorers get frustrated when they don’t score.

Now some of my teammates told me later they were trying to talk to LeBron on the bench and he wasn’t responding. He was, said one of the guys, almost catatonic.

...Only LeBron knows what was bugging him. Maybe it was personal problems, maybe it was his sore elbow, maybe it was all that pressure and expectations. Hard to say. He kind of checked out for part of the 2011 NBA Finals against Dallas, too.
I always believed he could turn it on at any moment, but for some reason he didn’t. Not against the Celtics in 2010 and not against the Mavericks in 2011.

It was weird. It’s one thing to be a passer, but you are supposed to be the One. I’m watching him play against Dallas, and they’re swinging the ball and they get him a perfect open look—and he’s kicking it to Mario Chalmers. Makes no sense. I told people, “It’s like Michael Jordan told me. Before you succeed, you must first fail.”



A phantom or minor elbow injury that does not show up on MRIs or medical exams nor in earlier series wins does not make someone become "almost catatonic." Shaq is saying that the loss wasn't from misplay, it was something in his head. The Cavs didn't lose so embarrassingly because Lebron's play was say 10% worse due to injury: they lost because they were lost on the court. The leader is there to set an example, and when you have such a one-person centric team, if the leader mentally shuts down then what do you think will happen to the team who has been made to be dependent on that person? There's no excuse that can make up for the entire Cavs team getting outscored by freaking Glen Davis the first half of the 4th, losing by 32 at the Q, or any number of other absurdities that game.

Lebron needed to grow to get past these hurdles, and he's really done so after he exploded in 2012. That he has now done so doesn't erase his past failures.

It's fine to have a bad game: Lebron went 2-18 with 10 turnovers in g1 of the 2008 Celtics series, but the Cavs only lost by 4 points. They still played hard, Lebron tried, and the team played like a team instead of a defective 1-man show. Lebron's box score may have been worse in that 2008 game but he was far more impactful. In the end who cares about the stats, it's about what you propel your overall team to do. The Cavs aimlessly passing the ball around without care or concern for trying to win, on the verge of elimination in g6, is simply due to an utter failure in leadership. The body language of Lebron and the Cavs in games 5 and 6 is so blatant that it makes a very nice litmus test of who actually watched the games and who's part of the PR squad here to save the day.

As for the topic at hand, I actually like Lebron's 2010 RS more despite the worse performance mainly due to his defense. The 2009->2010 transition was a big defense for offense tradeoff besides Anderson Varejao and Delonte West getting closer to their peak years, yet Lebron filled in the holes seamlessly with his ridiculous motor and better iq. The Cavs drtg dropped off a lot less than I thought it would have with those trades and with Lebron missing those final games. Lebron was constantly helping all around and covering openings. After rewatching some of 2010 last year, imo he was way better defensively in 2010 than in 2013, where he received way more media attention for defense. The Celtics defended him much 'better' than the Magic did (given they didn't scheme against Lebron specifically) so naturally he'd have better numbers, all mental or quitting issues aside. But overall as said Lebron's jumper was on fire for the 2009 playoffs and he had a lot of good games.
No-more-rings
Head Coach
Posts: 7,104
And1: 3,913
Joined: Oct 04, 2018

Re: Better player, 2009 LeBron or 2010 LeBron 

Post#31 » by No-more-rings » Sat Aug 22, 2020 11:25 am

Heej wrote:
No-more-rings wrote:
Heej wrote:Found the guy that never had a pinched nerve before. Guess it should be expected since most of RealGM doesn't even lift lol

This is a pretty useless retort and don’t know how I should respond. I do lift, and i used to play basketball recreationally. I’ve broke many bones before.

Look guys, we can speculate the injury all we want, the fact remains the Celtics were a great defense who played him well. Why’s that so hard to admit?

Nothing hard to admit about it. Just like there shouldn't be anything hard to accept about an elbow tweak. MFs be like "why can't you just see my POV" and then completely ignore stuff that other people be saying when it suits their point lol. Dude def got a pinched nerve of some kind, that sort of stuff just happens and maybe you need to simply accept that lol

Well again that’s why i said we can speculate to death the severity of it, but it does no good because only he knows how much pain he was in. I’m just not getting on board with the idea that he was “injured in the playoffs”, if the elbow was a big factor it didn’t become one until the 2nd half of the Boston series.
freethedevil
Head Coach
Posts: 7,262
And1: 3,237
Joined: Dec 09, 2018
         

Re: Better player, 2009 LeBron or 2010 LeBron 

Post#32 » by freethedevil » Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:16 pm

O_6 wrote:LeBron's 2009 playoff exit was simply significantly more graceful and impressive than his 2010 playoff exit. IMO, that's always been the reason why 2009 LeBron has been hyped so much more. In the 2009 playoffs, LeBron had a hot stretch with his jumper which made him look impossible to guard..

I don't really see how this is relevance. Going hot or cold is part of how good you are. If lebron played much better because he was hot, he still played much better.

Return to Player Comparisons