WCQF: Oklahoma City Thunder vs Houston Rockets | P1

[Galloisdaman]

Now we don't have enough atheltes, lol. And unless I missed something, there have been no reports of Gallo being injured.

I haven't heard anything. Nobody has looked that good in the first 2 games but Gallo is averaging a pretty efficient 23ppg.

[getrichordie]

Now we don't have enough atheltes, lol. And unless I missed something, there have been no reports of Gallo being injured.

I haven't heard anything. Nobody has looked that good in the first 2 games but Gallo is averaging a pretty efficient 23ppg.

I was referring to the many injuries Gallo has had. He's not the same player he was a few years back. He's lost a step. Also, even when healthy now, he's nowhere near the level of athlete that you would want competing against a HOU team where you have to switch all night long.

[getrichordie]

Basically, what I'm saying is that you guys are expecting Donovan to prepare this 5-star Michelin recipe but failing to recognize that he doesn't even have the **** proper ingredients.

[Galloisdaman]

Now we don't have enough atheltes, lol. And unless I missed something, there have been no reports of Gallo being injured.

I haven't heard anything. Nobody has looked that good in the first 2 games but Gallo is averaging a pretty efficient 23ppg.

I was referring to the many injuries Gallo has had. He's not the same player he was a few years back. He's lost a step. Also, even when healthy now, he's nowhere near the level of athlete that you would want competing against a HOU team where you have to switch all night long.

The knee injuries took a toll. He changed his game a bit to more outside shooting and less driving to the rim.

[ThunderBolt]

Basically, what I'm saying is that you guys are expecting Donovan to prepare this 5-star Michelin recipe but failing to recognize that he doesn't even have the **** proper ingredients.

You keep defending Donovan like he never had a chance. Yet, just a few days ago you were on the GB touting an OKC victory of the series in six games. Why? Because you said Houston, not OKC, didn't have the talent to compete. Your defense of Billy is odd considering he isn't even measuring up to your criteria.


viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1984416&p=84040872&hilit=thunder+in#p84040872

Spoiler:

Thunder in 6.

Without Westbrook, it's hard to see HOU having enough collective talent to overcome our defensive gameplan (which should be make Harden ball out and tire him out) on a nightly basis. I think we match-up decently well as long as Adams plays to his strengths and we manage his minutes well.

I think between Diallo, Dort, and Ferguson, we can throw different looks at Harden and just generally make it tough to score. I don't expect Gordon to be much of a factor due to him not being in game shape just yet and Westbrook just makes it that much easier on defense, IMO, due to him not having an outside shot. We can just chill back and let him shoot/take charges.

I think as long as we play to our pace and stick to what makes us successful, we can overcome the Houston Hardens.

[ThunderBolt]

Also, Gallo isn't really the issue. It's been Paul and Adams. Adams is getting run off the court and I don't really have an answer for whats going on with CP3.
https://stats.nba.com/team/1610612760/onoffcourt-traditional/?sort=PLUS_MINUS&dir=-1

[Old Man Game]

I don't understand why Adams is even playing as much as he is. They keep trying to force feed him but he's too much of a stiff to really make them pay. His decision-making takes away too long. It's easy for them to just dig down on him when they need to or even just play him straight up with Tucker.

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[getrichordie]

Basically, what I'm saying is that you guys are expecting Donovan to prepare this 5-star Michelin recipe but failing to recognize that he doesn't even have the **** proper ingredients.

You keep defending Donovan like he never had a chance. Yet, just a few days ago you were on the GB touting an OKC victory of the series in six games. Why? Because you said Houston, not OKC, didn't have the talent to compete. Your defense of Billy is odd considering he isn't even measuring up to your criteria.


viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1984416&p=84040872&hilit=thunder+in#p84040872

Spoiler:

Thunder in 6.

Without Westbrook, it's hard to see HOU having enough collective talent to overcome our defensive gameplan (which should be make Harden ball out and tire him out) on a nightly basis. I think we match-up decently well as long as Adams plays to his strengths and we manage his minutes well.

I think between Diallo, Dort, and Ferguson, we can throw different looks at Harden and just generally make it tough to score. I don't expect Gordon to be much of a factor due to him not being in game shape just yet and Westbrook just makes it that much easier on defense, IMO, due to him not having an outside shot. We can just chill back and let him shoot/take charges.

I think as long as we play to our pace and stick to what makes us successful, we can overcome the Houston Hardens.

Dude, I don't know why you are being so disrespectful. Opinions can change quick in playoffs and mine has shifted significantly. But go ahead...

I clearly said that I didn't think HOU had enough collective talent and proceeded to cite my concerns about Gordon not being in game shape. I mean, you got me. I didn't think House and Green would become super stars either.

We are not executing the game plan that I would have liked either, so I'm not sure why you are even referencing this...

I certainly didn't think Paul and Adams would play this badly, either. And I certainly didn't think HOU would turn into a defensive juggernaut.

[ThunderBolt]

Basically, what I'm saying is that you guys are expecting Donovan to prepare this 5-star Michelin recipe but failing to recognize that he doesn't even have the **** proper ingredients.

You keep defending Donovan like he never had a chance. Yet, just a few days ago you were on the GB touting an OKC victory of the series in six games. Why? Because you said Houston, not OKC, didn't have the talent to compete. Your defense of Billy is odd considering he isn't even measuring up to your criteria.


viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1984416&p=84040872&hilit=thunder+in#p84040872

Spoiler:

Thunder in 6.

Without Westbrook, it's hard to see HOU having enough collective talent to overcome our defensive gameplan (which should be make Harden ball out and tire him out) on a nightly basis. I think we match-up decently well as long as Adams plays to his strengths and we manage his minutes well.

I think between Diallo, Dort, and Ferguson, we can throw different looks at Harden and just generally make it tough to score. I don't expect Gordon to be much of a factor due to him not being in game shape just yet and Westbrook just makes it that much easier on defense, IMO, due to him not having an outside shot. We can just chill back and let him shoot/take charges.

I think as long as we play to our pace and stick to what makes us successful, we can overcome the Houston Hardens.

Dude, I don't know why you are being so disrespectful. Opinions can change quick in playoffs and mine has shifted significantly. But go ahead...

I clearly said that I didn't think HOU had enough collective talent and proceeded to cite my concerns about Gordon not being in game shape. I mean, you got me. I didn't think House and Green would become super stars either.

We are not executing the game plan that I would have liked either, so I'm not sure why you are even referencing this...

I certainly didn't think Paul and Adams would play this badly, either. And I certainly didn't think HOU would turn into a defensive juggernaut.

There is nothing disrespectful here. I’m sorry that you feel that way. You are free to shift your opinion in two games. Mine, and others has remained the same for several years. Donovan deserves SOME responsibly for the team’s playoff performances the last four years.

That’s been pretty consistent from quite a few people here on this board. I don’t think it’s a hot take. You don’t have to change your opinion because I disagree. However when your opinion on related topics changes that drastically in less than a week, I think it’s fair to address it when we are discussing our views and each side is defending his own.

The roster clearly has issues. It has for years. The offense has issues. It has for years. Like I’ve said before, it’s silly to sit here and divvy up blame percentages. However in the world of nba coaching, very few coaches get tenure in their profession and certainly not one who looks to be a first round exit four out of five years.

You picked the thunder in six. You still might be right. Then you can quote me and ask me to justify my bad takes.

[ThunderBolt]

I don't understand why Adams is even playing as much as he is. They keep trying to force feed him but he's too much of a stiff to really make them pay. His decision-making takes away too long. It's easy for them to just dig down on him when they need to or even just play him straight up with Tucker.

Sent from my Pixel using RealGM mobile app

Contract justification?

[getrichordie]

You keep defending Donovan like he never had a chance. Yet, just a few days ago you were on the GB touting an OKC victory of the series in six games. Why? Because you said Houston, not OKC, didn't have the talent to compete. Your defense of Billy is odd considering he isn't even measuring up to your criteria.


viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1984416&p=84040872&hilit=thunder+in#p84040872

Spoiler:

Thunder in 6.

Without Westbrook, it's hard to see HOU having enough collective talent to overcome our defensive gameplan (which should be make Harden ball out and tire him out) on a nightly basis. I think we match-up decently well as long as Adams plays to his strengths and we manage his minutes well.

I think between Diallo, Dort, and Ferguson, we can throw different looks at Harden and just generally make it tough to score. I don't expect Gordon to be much of a factor due to him not being in game shape just yet and Westbrook just makes it that much easier on defense, IMO, due to him not having an outside shot. We can just chill back and let him shoot/take charges.

I think as long as we play to our pace and stick to what makes us successful, we can overcome the Houston Hardens.

Dude, I don't know why you are being so disrespectful. Opinions can change quick in playoffs and mine has shifted significantly. But go ahead...

I clearly said that I didn't think HOU had enough collective talent and proceeded to cite my concerns about Gordon not being in game shape. I mean, you got me. I didn't think House and Green would become super stars either.

We are not executing the game plan that I would have liked either, so I'm not sure why you are even referencing this...

I certainly didn't think Paul and Adams would play this badly, either. And I certainly didn't think HOU would turn into a defensive juggernaut.

There is nothing disrespectful here. I’m sorry that you feel that way. You are free to shift your opinion in two games. Mine, and others has remained the same for several years. Donovan deserves SOME responsibly for the team’s playoff performances the last four years.

That’s been pretty consistent from quite a few people here on this board. I don’t think it’s a hot take. You don’t have to change your opinion because I disagree. However when your opinion on related topics changes that drastically in less than a week, I think it’s fair to address it when we are discussing our views and each side is defending his own.

The roster clearly has issues. It has for years. The offense has issues. It has for years. Like I’ve said before, it’s silly to sit here and divvy up blame percentages. However in the world of nba coaching, very few coaches get tenure in their profession and certainly not one who looks to be a first round exit four out of five years.

You picked the thunder in six. You still might be right. Then you can quote me and ask me to justify my bad takes.

Let me be more clear. What is disrespectful is that you summed up what I said and passed it off as me saying HOU didn't have the talent to compete. That is clearly not what I said. Please don't misrepresent my reasoning as to why I picked OKC in 6.

Is it all that unfathomable to think Gordon wouldn't be playing at this level.

Is it unfathomable to think that Green, House, Rivers wouldn't be contributing THIS much?

Was it crazy to think that Paul could have more of an impact on this series?

I was wrong. I admit it. I didn't think Paul wouldn't be able to penetrate. I didn't think about how Gallinari might struggle everywhere but shooting. I didn't think Jeff Green would turn into a high-end rotation player in the Playoffs. I didn't think Gordon would step in and contribute at this high of a level. I didn't think House would be a huge factor on the boards and be a lock down defender. And I thought we could do a better job defending Harden but even though Donovan preached the importance of not fouling, our player's still fouled.

[getrichordie]

This is what I've been trying to say:

Per Sam Vecenie (The Athletic):

Houston is not an especially deep team. The Rockets’ style is very conducing to maximizing the minutes of the Thunder’s trio of ballhandling guards in Chris Paul, Shai Gilgeous-Alexander and Dennis Schröder. These would seem to be things that could have played into OKC’s favor.

Through two games, not so much. The only series which has been more lopsided through the competitive portions of games has been Boston over the Simmons-less 76ers.

With so much information available about each and every matchup, the seeds of victory or defeat are usually there to be seen. The problem is that which bits of info are actually the most salient only reveal themselves in time. And what we’ve learned from this series is that it is actually the Rockets who benefit from how Oklahoma City wants to play rather than the reverse.

Houston’s overwhelming reliance on isolation-based offense is well-established, but Oklahoma City is also a very heavy iso team. Those three guards, CP3, SGA and Schröder? None of them are especially adept off-ball players and all of them (as well as Danilo Gallinari) do enjoy going one-on-one. Synergy play type data is best used carefully, but it can paint a good picture of a team’s offensive style. In this case, that portrait indicates that though the Rockets were top of the league by miles and miles in proportion plays out of iso, the Thunder were third behind Houston and Portland’s own guard-dominant attack.

Unfortunately for the Thunder, Houston’s stylistic weirdness gives them something of a built in counter to the Thunder’s ability to find and exploit a mismatch. Since the Rockets lineups are filled with like-sized players with similar movement skills, there is no mismatch for the Thunder to create. The genius behind Oklahoma City’s three-guard look is that most opponents will be forced to defend at least one of them with a player unfamiliar and/or unsuited to stopping one-on-one play. Almost by definition, none of the Rocket defenders fit that description.

TL;DR:

- Adams is only real mismatch on floor. Hence getting him more involved.

- Our main offensive contributors are more adept at playing on-ball than off, hence why we cannot run successful off-ball actions at a high-level. That's counter-intuitive to what a good coach should be doing which is maximizing strengths and minimizing weaknesses.

- No big mismatches for our 3 PGs to take advantage of.

[getrichordie]

We simply aren't built for the playoffs like many thought. I didn't expect us to go far at all, but I thought we could edge out Rockets w/ Westbrook being out and Gordon not being in game shape.

I overestimated our defense and underestimated HOU's 3-pt. shooting and didn't expect their bench to be big contributors.

- Hindsight is always 20/20, but we should've seen this coming and some did. We don't have a legitimate NBA wing. Let me say that again. We don't have a legitimate NBA wing. That's kind of a **** massive problem to have in the playoffs.

- Adams is more traditional big than modern big. He's not as good as was once advertised. I remember fans on this board mentioning him in the same sentence as Gobert at some point in time.

- Paul is 35+ and is having second worst season of his career according to analytics.

- Gilgeous-Alexander, Dort, Bazley, Ferguson, and Diallo all combine for less than 10 years of NBA experience. Three of them can't shoot/perform consistently.

- Only high-level perimeter shooter we have is Gallinari (~42% on 3s over last 2 seasons). Everyone else is around league average or worse.

- Nader and Muscala are end of the bench situational options.

- Noel is, at best, a serviceable back up rim-protecting big relative to Playoff competition.

...

So why are we so surprised that we are down 2-0? Why are we expecting any coach to be performing better with this squad? Especially when our top defender (and rookie UDFA) was out for the first meet... Why are we expecting all of this off-ball movement to start happening when our main contributors are largely on-ball weapons and our "complimentary" pieces are largely non-shooters with little experience on average and have never been and likely never will be off-ball threats?

...

Look, this was a transition season. That's all it was. We were never trying to put together a team that could go deep in the playoffs. If we wanted to do that, we would have improved the roster using our picks and flipped some guys for other guys who had these skill sets that compliment the team... These years happen and they are apart of NBA basketball, like it or not. Over-analyzing the losings to a more experienced and superior Rockets team just seems... unnecessary and honestly sounds like venting frustration for all of the previous years' Playoff woes.

[ThunderBolt]

Dude, I don't know why you are being so disrespectful. Opinions can change quick in playoffs and mine has shifted significantly. But go ahead...

I clearly said that I didn't think HOU had enough collective talent and proceeded to cite my concerns about Gordon not being in game shape. I mean, you got me. I didn't think House and Green would become super stars either.

We are not executing the game plan that I would have liked either, so I'm not sure why you are even referencing this...

I certainly didn't think Paul and Adams would play this badly, either. And I certainly didn't think HOU would turn into a defensive juggernaut.

There is nothing disrespectful here. I’m sorry that you feel that way. You are free to shift your opinion in two games. Mine, and others has remained the same for several years. Donovan deserves SOME responsibly for the team’s playoff performances the last four years.

That’s been pretty consistent from quite a few people here on this board. I don’t think it’s a hot take. You don’t have to change your opinion because I disagree. However when your opinion on related topics changes that drastically in less than a week, I think it’s fair to address it when we are discussing our views and each side is defending his own.

The roster clearly has issues. It has for years. The offense has issues. It has for years. Like I’ve said before, it’s silly to sit here and divvy up blame percentages. However in the world of nba coaching, very few coaches get tenure in their profession and certainly not one who looks to be a first round exit four out of five years.

You picked the thunder in six. You still might be right. Then you can quote me and ask me to justify my bad takes.

Let me be more clear. What is disrespectful is that you summed up what I said and passed it off as me saying HOU didn't have the talent to compete. That is clearly not what I said. Please don't misrepresent my reasoning as to why I picked OKC in 6.

Is it all that unfathomable to think Gordon wouldn't be playing at this level.

Is it unfathomable to think that Green, House, Rivers wouldn't be contributing THIS much?

Was it crazy to think that Paul could have more of an impact on this series?

I was wrong. I admit it. I didn't think Paul wouldn't be able to penetrate. I didn't think about how Gallinari might struggle everywhere but shooting. I didn't think Jeff Green would turn into a high-end rotation player in the Playoffs. I didn't think Gordon would step in and contribute at this high of a level. I didn't think House would be a huge factor on the boards and be a lock down defender. And I thought we could do a better job defending Harden but even though Donovan preached the importance of not fouling, our player's still fouled.

This is a discussion about if the coach has responsibility for the teams performance. You’ve been making the argument that he’s limited by the roster and just a few days ago (not months ago) you said differently. I called you on it and gave you the opportunity to explain. That seems to have upset you. Calling me disrespectful is a reach and you know it. I’m disappointed that you would say that. I considered this good basketball discussion. If you think it’s disrespectful then you can report my posts and we will allow another mod to make the decision. I’m going to go ahead and end this discussion because I don’t want it to devolve into a discussion about feelings and intent. If you want to discuss that, you can PM me.

[Pillendreher]

One should keep in mind that throughout the years, Donovan has coached around 50 different guys, yet the end result has always been the same. Ever since Kevin Durant left, the Thunder have been swapping players constantly. The only constant sits on the bench.

EDIT: That doesn't mean that it's entirely Donovan's fault. Even the best coach can't turn horrible players into good players. You can't constantly add bad players to the mix and expect it to work.

[ThunderBolt]

One should keep in mind that throughout the years, Donovan has coached around 50 different guys, yet the end result has always been the same. Ever since Kevin Durant left, the Thunder have been swapping players constantly. The only constant sits on the bench.

EDIT: That doesn't mean that it's entirely Donovan's fault. Even the best coach can't turn horrible players into good players. You can't constantly add bad players to the mix and expect it to work.

Yep. No one is denying the roster is flawed but so are the rosters of the teams. The Lakers have no perimeter players. Clippers don't have a true facilitator. Uah is missing their second leading scorer. Portland and Dallas can't play defense. The magic are g league team. Yet all of those series are more competitive than ours and this is the 4/5 matchup!

[Pillendreher]

One should keep in mind that throughout the years, Donovan has coached around 50 different guys, yet the end result has always been the same. Ever since Kevin Durant left, the Thunder have been swapping players constantly. The only constant sits on the bench.

EDIT: That doesn't mean that it's entirely Donovan's fault. Even the best coach can't turn horrible players into good players. You can't constantly add bad players to the mix and expect it to work.

Yep. No one is denying the roster is flawed but so are the rosters of the teams. The Lakers have no perimeter players. Clippers don't have a true facilitator. Uah is missing their second leading scorer. Portland and Dallas can't play defense. The magic are g league team. Yet all of those series are more competitive than ours and this is the 4/5 matchup!

And the best player in the entire series hasn't even played yet.

[ThunderBolt]

One should keep in mind that throughout the years, Donovan has coached around 50 different guys, yet the end result has always been the same. Ever since Kevin Durant left, the Thunder have been swapping players constantly. The only constant sits on the bench.

EDIT: That doesn't mean that it's entirely Donovan's fault. Even the best coach can't turn horrible players into good players. You can't constantly add bad players to the mix and expect it to work.

Yep. No one is denying the roster is flawed but so are the rosters of the teams. The Lakers have no perimeter players. Clippers don't have a true facilitator. Uah is missing their second leading scorer. Portland and Dallas can't play defense. The magic are g league team. Yet all of those series are more competitive than ours and this is the 4/5 matchup!

And the best player in the entire series hasn't even played yet.

Yep, okc still has a little hope.

Spoiler:

[Galloisdaman]

Houston is playing great on offense and defense. OKC is playing the worse they have all season. Its actually surprising the games have not been blowouts. When OKC played Houston on national TV they seemed super confident. Right now they look confused. Right from the first 5 minutes of this series CP3 did not look like the same CP3 from the regular season. JVG even mentioned the team looked better with Dennis. Every player has some bad games. Is there any chance for a bounce back? I loved OKC hustle before the bubble. Can they recapture that?

[Pillendreher]

Yep. No one is denying the roster is flawed but so are the rosters of the teams. The Lakers have no perimeter players. Clippers don't have a true facilitator. Uah is missing their second leading scorer. Portland and Dallas can't play defense. The magic are g league team. Yet all of those series are more competitive than ours and this is the 4/5 matchup!

And the best player in the entire series hasn't even played yet.

Yep, okc still has a little hope.

Spoiler:

Please keep your hateful images to yourself. Thank you.