Around The NBA: 2019-20 RESTART

[MrSparkle]

Denver having a nuclear meltdown. Geez. 40 points down at the top of the 4th? Denver's perimeter defense in full-crisis mode against the Conley-Mitchell back-court. Had DEN as my dark-horse WCF contender in case one of the LA teams stumbled, but this series momentum is spelling an end. Nuggets body language looking beat - I thought DEN could get it done without Harris and Barton for this series, but without them, Denver's wings keep getting shredded by Utah's back-court. And at this point, they just look helpless for 2 games in a row.

[MrSparkle]

BTW, Utah exploited MPJ to the max. Definitely OK to pump the brakes on the MPJ hype. More than anything, his injury proneness is what would scare me. You ask the guy to put his body more on the line for defense, and you risk putting him out for a year. That's a tough dilemma in a playoff series.

But he did have a hell of a month. If I'm DEN, it would make sense to shop MPJ.

[kodo]

The problem is I don't think MPJ is a SF, you're defined by who you can guard. That starting frontcourt of Jokic/Milsap/MPJ meant they had 3 guys on the court who get blown by any competent guard, not just Mitchell. Add in that Murray doesn't care to play defense and 4/5 of the starters are blow by opportunities for Jazz guards.

Exacerbated by him being just a 1st year player though, he was sometimes not even guarding the right guy at all and doing things like leaving Mitchell unguarded in transition. So even if he could stop penetration, he wasn't even on his man. But DEN is trying to compete now, he's going to have to learn quick.

[Chi town]

I think DEN wins if they had Barton and Harris.

I think Utah wins it if they had Bogdan even with a full DEN team.

MPJ is an interesting trade target. I disagree and believe he can defends 3s and 4s... just not that well. He’s def an elite scorer.

Wonder what his value is? Entering 3rd season and has broken out. I’d take Jaylen Brown over him due to his 2 way play. He has the back issue.

MOJ worth 4th pick?

[Chicagoat]

Luka is down. Well that's it for the Mavs. Shame too. Was looking to be a good series.

[MrFortune3]

Mavs are giving the Clippers a nice fight. Even with Luka being hurt. Good game.

[Leslie Forman]

I feel like both the haters and the stans for Porter Jr. were kinda right.

He is incredible at just plain putting the ball in the bucket. Has the skill at finding shot opportunities you can't teach. Looks like he has elite potential as both an off-ball and on-ball shooter.

Buuuuut he is also a stiff. Nowhere near the Durant-type dynamic big wing people said he was. Looks like he can only play the 4 defensively, and not very well at that. Very upright (no surprise with his back history) and isn't all that quick.

[DASMACKDOWN]

I feel like both the haters and the stans for Porter Jr. were kinda right.

He is incredible at just plain putting the ball in the bucket. Has the skill at finding shot opportunities you can't teach. Looks like he has elite potential as both an off-ball and on-ball shooter.

Buuuuut he is also a stiff. Nowhere near the Durant-type dynamic big wing people said he was. Looks like he can only play the 4 defensively, and not very well at that. Very upright (no surprise with his back history) and isn't all that quick.

WIthout the back injury, he would have been by far and away the #1 pick in the draft.

Now the only question is, has his back permanently made him be more "stiff". If so, it will limit his full potential however he will still be an excellent player because of his shooting touch and size. I could certainly envision MPJ being Denvers leading scorer next season.

His playing style is like a better shooting Lauri who isn't afraid to shoot.

[dougthonus]

BTW, Utah exploited MPJ to the max. Definitely OK to pump the brakes on the MPJ hype. More than anything, his injury proneness is what would scare me. You ask the guy to put his body more on the line for defense, and you risk putting him out for a year. That's a tough dilemma in a playoff series.

But he did have a hell of a month. If I'm DEN, it would make sense to shop MPJ.

I don't think a guy in his rookie season being exploited defensively is a reason to pump the breaks on his very high level of play right now. I'd be incredibly excited about MPJ if he were on the Bulls at this moment, and I was on the "anyone but MPJ" bandwagon due to the injury risk during the draft.

However, two years later, he looks extremely solid and worth the wait. Sometimes that works for you like with Embiid and possibly MPJ and sometimes it doesn't. I was really high on the possibilities of WCJ and maybe he will still turn into a good player, but it has been disturbing how little progress he has made so far and has also been beset by injuries.

[Leslie Forman]

WIthout the back injury, he would have been by far and away the #1 pick in the draft.

Unless DeAndre Ayton somehow became five inches shorter right before the draft, I don't know about that.

[DASMACKDOWN]

I was really high on the possibilities of WCJ and maybe he will still turn into a good player, but it has been disturbing how little progress he has made so far and has also been beset by injuries.

The injuries are probably the most disturbing part of his career so far. But it wouldn't matter if he finally gets there.

But for me, I honestly cant hold anything against any of the players last year because we were being coached by Jim Boylen.

I dont think we can both blame Boylen (which most agree was the biggest problem) while also heavily criticizing the players. It not a fair or realistic analysis.

As someone said its like blaming the cook for not adding salt and pepper, while knowing the restaurant owner told his staff not to add salt and pepper.

My thing is, when we get a new coach and he gives them the whole spice rack, lets see how WCJ and others season their food.

[dougthonus]

The injuries are probably the most disturbing part of his career so far. But it wouldn't matter if he finally gets there.

Agreed.

But for me, I honestly cant hold anything against any of the players last year because we were being coached by Jim Boylen.

I think this is letting the players off WAY too easy. Players and assistants are responsible for most of the growth. The head coach isn't. WCJ looked out of shape for much of the year, that has nothing to do with Boylen. He wasn't aggressive offensively, his jumper looked completely dead, he often played timidly.

Gafford came in and looked like 10x the player most of the time he was on the floor. That's all on WCJ.

I dont think we can both blame Boylen (which most agree was the biggest problem) while also heavily criticizing the players. It not a fair or realistic analysis.

People who think Boylen was the biggest problem are deluding themselves IMO. He was a problem. I'm glad he's gone. I think someone else will do better, but I think our players were the biggest problem.

As someone said its like blaming the cook for not adding salt and pepper, while knowing the restaurant owner told his staff not to add salt and pepper.

My thing is, when we get a new coach and he gives them the whole spice rack, lets see how WCJ and others season their food.

Think that's a lousy analogy. Doubt Boylen said miss lots of shots, be timid on offense, don't extend your range at all, come into camp out of shape etc...

There's some stuff you could complain about Boylen in terms of how guys were used, but their fundamental skill development and conditioning is on them.

[DASMACKDOWN]

WIthout the back injury, he would have been by far and away the #1 pick in the draft.

Unless DeAndre Ayton somehow became five inches shorter right before the draft, I don't know about that.

Yeah I really do think he would have easily gone over Ayton. You also have to factor the league at that point. In alot of the mocks, he was compared to Kevin Durant. The Kevin Durant who just won back to back Finals MVPs. So he had all that going for him.

But knowing PHX they probably would have picked Ayton anyway just based on the Arizona connection.

[MrSparkle]

I feel like both the haters and the stans for Porter Jr. were kinda right.

He is incredible at just plain putting the ball in the bucket. Has the skill at finding shot opportunities you can't teach. Looks like he has elite potential as both an off-ball and on-ball shooter.

Buuuuut he is also a stiff. Nowhere near the Durant-type dynamic big wing people said he was. Looks like he can only play the 4 defensively, and not very well at that. Very upright (no surprise with his back history) and isn't all that quick.

He kind of... looks exactly like he did in his Draft highlight videos.

MPJ reminds me of a few guys who slipped by the time they made it to the draft because their ‘superstar‘ Prep expectations fell short with red flags:

Rudy Gay
DeRozan
Deng to an extent

Had expectations not been curbed, sure these would be disappointing top-3 picks, but considering they went outside the top-6.. they sure panned out better than the Thabeets, Adam Morrisons and Okafors.

Granted MPJ’s injuries were a huge deterrent, but his pre-draft skills did get knocked even more by the critics, to my surprise. I didn’t see Durant, but I did see a 6’10 shooter with perimeter handles and hops. I noticed he was stiff, but you weigh that with his height and ability to generate a clean shot.

My philosophy is that the draft is over-thunk by a lot of “experts.“ Like, I get the balance between risks and safe picks, but at a certain point.. what you see is what you get?

Even in hindsight, it was my personal ignorance/lack-of-attention that I didn’t realize Rose would be a jet in the NBA. If you look back at his MEM reel, he was traversing the court in 3 seconds or less, dunking, and making intense plays. He didn’t come into the NBA and start doing things that were outside his skill-set.

So with this upcoming draft.. i look at LaMelo: shooting well would be way outside his skill-set. Defending quick SFs and big PFs may be outside of Deni’s skill-set (plus the shooting translation is questionable) - more quick Saric.

Wiseman, Edwards kind of look like the type who will pan out depending on their work ethic, but will hit a wall due to IQ and Shooting skill. They are athletic, NBA sized and talented. I don’t struggle to see those aspects translating to the NBA.

[PaKii94]

The injuries are probably the most disturbing part of his career so far. But it wouldn't matter if he finally gets there.

Agreed.

But for me, I honestly cant hold anything against any of the players last year because we were being coached by Jim Boylen.

I think this is letting the players off WAY too easy. Players and assistants are responsible for most of the growth. The head coach isn't. WCJ looked out of shape for much of the year, that has nothing to do with Boylen. He wasn't aggressive offensively, his jumper looked completely dead, he often played timidly.

Gafford came in and looked like 10x the player most of the time he was on the floor. That's all on WCJ.

I dont think we can both blame Boylen (which most agree was the biggest problem) while also heavily criticizing the players. It not a fair or realistic analysis.

People who think Boylen was the biggest problem are deluding themselves IMO. He was a problem. I'm glad he's gone. I think someone else will do better, but I think our players were the biggest problem.

As someone said its like blaming the cook for not adding salt and pepper, while knowing the restaurant owner told his staff not to add salt and pepper.

My thing is, when we get a new coach and he gives them the whole spice rack, lets see how WCJ and others season their food.

Think that's a lousy analogy. Doubt Boylen said miss lots of shots, be timid on offense, don't extend your range at all, come into camp out of shape etc...

There's some stuff you could complain about Boylen in terms of how guys were used, but their fundamental skill development and conditioning is on them.

The bolded all have to do with Boylen and the offensive system. It was straight trash. It was a hinderence to everyone. You say gafford looked better but that's the role of the big man in Boylen's master offense. Garbage man rim runners. That's why you didn't see anything extra out of wcj. I think that's why he also made the wanting to play PF comment. Not cause he literally wants to be a PF but so he can get a better part of the offensive scheme. Lauri was on the opposite end. He played the perimeter/spacer role and not much else.

The only one who can thrive in that kind of offense is the one who has the ball and the one cleaning up the missed
shots.


Lavine at the beginning was also trash (playing off ball) until he was put on ball

[dougthonus]

The bolded all have to do with Boylen and the offensive system. It was straight trash. It was a hinderence to everyone. You say gafford looked better but that's the role of the big man in Boylen's master offense. Garbage man rim runners. That's why you didn't see anything extra out of wcj. I think that's why he also made the wanting to play PF comment. Not cause he literally wants to be a PF but so he can get a better part of the offensive scheme. Lauri was on the opposite end. He played the perimeter/spacer role and not much else.

The only one who can thrive in that kind of offense is the one who has the ball and the one cleaning up the missed
shots.


Lavine at the beginning was also trash (playing off ball) until he was put on ball

Maybe, he looked scared to shoot though and when he did shoot he looked awful. I just think its a huge stretch to put that on Boylen.

I don't know what people's expectations are, but the way they shovel blame onto Boylen, I would have to think that most people think this team will win 45+ games next year. Nearly every player on the team is apparently two pegs worse than they would be otherwise only because of Boylen. That literally seems to be the opinion of many people, and I'm just not buying it.

I think this forum is in for a big dose of disappointment next season, but I hope I'm completely wrong and that Boylen is really just the center of all these problems and that whomever they bring in can make all of our players a couple notches better than they are.

[PaKii94]

The bolded all have to do with Boylen and the offensive system. It was straight trash. It was a hinderence to everyone. You say gafford looked better but that's the role of the big man in Boylen's master offense. Garbage man rim runners. That's why you didn't see anything extra out of wcj. I think that's why he also made the wanting to play PF comment. Not cause he literally wants to be a PF but so he can get a better part of the offensive scheme. Lauri was on the opposite end. He played the perimeter/spacer role and not much else.

The only one who can thrive in that kind of offense is the one who has the ball and the one cleaning up the missed
shots.


Lavine at the beginning was also trash (playing off ball) until he was put on ball

Maybe, he looked scared to shoot though and when he did shoot he looked awful. I just think its a huge stretch to put that on Boylen.

I don't know what people's expectations are, but the way they shovel blame onto Boylen, I would have to think that most people think this team will win 45+ games next year. Nearly every player on the team is apparently two pegs worse than they would be otherwise only because of Boylen. That literally seems to be the opinion of many people, and I'm just not buying it.

I think this forum is in for a big dose of disappointment next season, but I hope I'm completely wrong and that Boylen is really just the center of all these problems and that whomever they bring in can make all of our players a couple notches better than they are.

There is a reason why everyone pegged the bulls as a fringe playoff team in the preseason. The talent is there. The offensive system stagnated literally everyone. No one was playing to their strengths.

Also the reason people thought we could be good was due to the run last Feb when the bulls had the #1 offense during that span. I've been thinking about that lately and the reason the bulls went off was Boylen "loosened the strings on the offense" which meant he went back to hoiberg sets.

This season was purely Boylen offense. We got a glimpse of that when he stagnated the offense last year when he first took over (walk before run bs)

[PaKii94]

The bolded all have to do with Boylen and the offensive system. It was straight trash. It was a hinderence to everyone. You say gafford looked better but that's the role of the big man in Boylen's master offense. Garbage man rim runners. That's why you didn't see anything extra out of wcj. I think that's why he also made the wanting to play PF comment. Not cause he literally wants to be a PF but so he can get a better part of the offensive scheme. Lauri was on the opposite end. He played the perimeter/spacer role and not much else.

The only one who can thrive in that kind of offense is the one who has the ball and the one cleaning up the missed
shots.


Lavine at the beginning was also trash (playing off ball) until he was put on ball

Maybe, he looked scared to shoot though and when he did shoot he looked awful. I just think its a huge stretch to put that on Boylen.

I don't know what people's expectations are, but the way they shovel blame onto Boylen, I would have to think that most people think this team will win 45+ games next year. Nearly every player on the team is apparently two pegs worse than they would be otherwise only because of Boylen. That literally seems to be the opinion of many people, and I'm just not buying it.

I think this forum is in for a big dose of disappointment next season, but I hope I'm completely wrong and that Boylen is really just the center of all these problems and that whomever they bring in can make all of our players a couple notches better than they are.

There is a reason why everyone pegged the bulls as a fringe playoff team in the preseason. The talent is there. The offensive system stagnated literally everyone. No one was playing to their strengths.

Also the reason people thought we could be good was due to the run last Feb when the bulls had the #1 offense during that span. I've been thinking about that lately and the reason the bulls went off was Boylen "loosened the strings on the offense" which meant he went back to hoiberg sets.

This season was purely Boylen offense. We got a glimpse of that when he stagnated the offense last year when he first took over (walk before run bs)

And when I talk about strengths I mean the reasons why they are tantalizing pieces in the first place.

WCJ:
Potential of post playmaking, and perimeter scoring -> no post sets, not allowed to shoot

Blocking and defensive presence (due to timing/IQ and not athleticism) -> put in a blitzing scheme away from the rim majority of the time

[Leslie Forman]

There is a reason why everyone pegged the bulls as a fringe playoff team in the preseason. The talent is there. The offensive system stagnated literally everyone. No one was playing to their strengths.

Only because the East was perceived to be so awful that a trash 30-win type team could make it.

This is where "everyone" pegged the Bulls in the preseason, and mind you, this was under the assumption that Porter was healthy:
Vegas: 23rd
The Ringer: 23rd
USA Today: 24th
SI: 24th
ESPN: 23rd

The Bulls, at the end of the season: 24th

Considering they did that without a healthy Porter, you could argue that Boylen exceeded the expectations of everyone that is not a poster on the RealGM Chicago Bulls forum. This board had completely, absurdly out of whack expectations for this team.

[Chi town]

There is a reason why everyone pegged the bulls as a fringe playoff team in the preseason. The talent is there. The offensive system stagnated literally everyone. No one was playing to their strengths.

Only because the East was perceived to be so awful that a trash 30-win type team could make it.

This is where "everyone" pegged the Bulls in the preseason, and mind you, this was under the assumption that Porter was healthy:
Vegas: 23rd
The Ringer: 23rd
USA Today: 24th
SI: 24th
ESPN: 23rd

The Bulls, at the end of the season: 24th

Considering they did that without a healthy Porter, you could argue that Boylen exceeded the expectations of everyone that is not a poster on the RealGM Chicago Bulls forum. This board had completely, absurdly out of whack expectations for this team.

Nah. It wasn’t just Porter hurt. Lauri. WCJ. Hutch. Dunn. Val. Gafford.

If anything this speaks to our talent being underestimated considering the Boylen effect.