2020 Pre-Draft Discussion

[BigSlam]

How someone could suggest that bigs are not needed in today’s NBA and then heavily advocate for someone like Toppin in the top #3 - who is a big himself and also a MASSIVE liability - is staggering and negates their opinion on the value of bigs in today’s NBA IMO.


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[MasterIchiro]

Teams like the GSW’s and Lakers can afford to skimp on their big because they have HOF players on their rosters like Curry, Thompson, Green, LeBron, Davis etc.

95% of teams rosters don’t have that kind of composition.


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I'm out on Wiseman. If the Hawks can afford to go cheap and the Cavs can afford to go cheap, no way in hell a rebuilding team can't do it with Mitch at the helm. Can't wrap my head around it.

What did the Cavs do? Not really sure what you mean there...

And I wouldn't say the Hawks went cheap at all either. Collins was a good prospect in a much more talented draft. That's circumstantial more than anything. They've also acquired a number of young frontcourt guys to invest in, and there's nothing heap about bringing in Clint Capela either.

Toppin though... He's not a better prospect than Thomas Robinson or Derrick Williams. And while I'm not against him really, I just don't think he stands out while picking at #3. This team needs all the help inside that it can get, but Obi's concerns definitely stand out.

Let me be more specific and to the point. I don't want to be the one rebuilding team that spends a high lotto pick on a center, not when the Cavs got Drummond for a second and the Hawks got Capela for a non-lotto pick. I can't wrap my head around Kupchak spending 3 on Wiseman instead of 32 on Drummond or something comparable down the line. The Magic are a perfect example of how not to build a team around a center. The Warriors are a perfect example of how not to make that mistake. The big money buys higher impact talent for more perimeter oriented players. Even Joel Embiid is stuck on a treadmill.

[DY_nasty]

The Sixers, Wolves, Suns, and Grizzlies all used a top 4 pick on a center in the last few years. The results so far are pretty mixed. And the other bigs drafted in the top half of the lottery like Bamba, Carter, Markkanen, Okafor, Porzingis, Bender, and Cauley-Stein aren't doing any better with the exception of Porzingis (jury is still out obviously for a few of them).

I think Wiseman is more in the Embiid and Porzingis tier, but the lack of impact most of the guys above have had so far is 100% something that should be taken into consideration.

As long as people apply the right context to those situations, I think that's cool to highlight. When folks generalize "bigs don't really matter" or something close, it really, really becomes a dismissive and reductive argument though.

Markannen went from being one of the best young big prospects in the league to horribly misused and potentially damaged goods for the near future due to one of the worst coaches in the league. Bamba was high risk from the start and it was known he'd be a project even in the best scenarios. Okafor's biggest concerns (defense, volume) were dismissed and now the main reason he can't stay on the floor and has almost washed out of the league altogether revolve around that.

So on and so forth. Its not really fair to say that these guys all had the same tools, opportunities, situations, etc then make a blanket statement regarding all bigs and their impact.

[BigSlam]

The Sixers, Wolves, Suns, Grizzlies, and Knicks all used a top 4 pick on a center in the last few years. The results so far are pretty mixed. And the other bigs drafted in the top half of the lottery like Bamba, Carter, Markkanen, Okafor, Bender, and Cauley-Stein aren't doing any better (jury is still out obviously for a few of them).

I think Wiseman is more in the Embiid and Porzingis tier, but the lack of impact most of the guys above have had so far is 100% something that should be taken into consideration. It also should give us pause that most of the guys picked above were selected by the unsuccessful franchises of the last decade. That likely goes both ways and harms their development, but again it gives me pause.

Historically there are more wings that miss as top #5 picks than there are bigs.

At the very least a bad big can still provide something like size and depth.

A bad wing are guys like Evan Turner, Wesley Johnson, MKG, Waiters, McLemore, Exum, Hezonja, Dunn, Josh Jackson who are barely even in the NBA anymore and who were all taken top #5.


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[DY_nasty]

I'm out on Wiseman. If the Hawks can afford to go cheap and the Cavs can afford to go cheap, no way in hell a rebuilding team can't do it with Mitch at the helm. Can't wrap my head around it.

What did the Cavs do? Not really sure what you mean there...

And I wouldn't say the Hawks went cheap at all either. Collins was a good prospect in a much more talented draft. That's circumstantial more than anything. They've also acquired a number of young frontcourt guys to invest in, and there's nothing heap about bringing in Clint Capela either.

Toppin though... He's not a better prospect than Thomas Robinson or Derrick Williams. And while I'm not against him really, I just don't think he stands out while picking at #3. This team needs all the help inside that it can get, but Obi's concerns definitely stand out.

Let me be more specific and to the point. I don't want to be the one rebuilding team that spends a high lotto pick on a center, not when the Cavs got Drummond for a second and the Hawks got Capela for a non-lotto pick. I can't wrap my head around Kupchak spending 3 on Wiseman instead of 32 on Drummond or something comparable down the line. The Magic are a perfect example of how not to build a team around a center. The Warriors are a perfect example of how not to make that mistake. The big money buys higher impact talent for more perimeter oriented players. Even Joel Embiid is stuck on a treadmill.

Its fair to say that the Cavs only took Drummond due to their desperation for help in the interior though. They have too many guys at the same position and that mismanagement created a need for Drummond that not too many other teams had to deal with. Also, the results of acquiring Drummond aren't exactly some gamechanger for their overall situation.

The Hawks didn't plainly get Capela for a non-lotto pick either. Resources come in a lot of forms and taking on that contract was definitely resources going into use.... Look at Capela's contract. He's due nearly 80 mil. Orlando and Vuc are inherently limited for years too - that's why they kept drafting bigs despite landing him. They know he's a middling solution as they don't to tank in their market.

[LofJ]

The Sixers, Wolves, Suns, and Grizzlies all used a top 4 pick on a center in the last few years. The results so far are pretty mixed. And the other bigs drafted in the top half of the lottery like Bamba, Carter, Markkanen, Okafor, Porzingis, Bender, and Cauley-Stein aren't doing any better with the exception of Porzingis (jury is still out obviously for a few of them).

I think Wiseman is more in the Embiid and Porzingis tier, but the lack of impact most of the guys above have had so far is 100% something that should be taken into consideration.

As long as people apply the right context to those situations, I think that's cool to highlight. When folks generalize "bigs don't really matter" or something close, it really, really becomes a dismissive and reductive argument though.

Markannen went from being one of the best young big prospects in the league to horribly misused and potentially damaged goods for the near future due to one of the worst coaches in the league. Bamba was high risk from the start and it was known he'd be a project even in the best scenarios. Okafor's biggest concerns (defense, volume) were dismissed and now the main reason he can't stay on the floor and has almost washed out of the league altogether revolve around that.

So on and so forth. Its not really fair to say that these guys all had the same tools, opportunities, situations, etc then make a blanket statement regarding all bigs and their impact.

I edited my post to say that a lot of the situations these players were in was not ideal. So I agree that you have to take context into account. That said the bigs that were selected high in the draft that have had success have a fantastic playmaker to help them (Simmons, Doncic, Morant, and Ayton who looks a lot better with Rubio).

Now if we land Wiseman this year and we get lucky again with Cade Cunningham next year we'll be in business with the best team we've had since the LJ/Zo days.

[BigSlam]

Saying guys like Drummond and Capella were only had for chump picks is 100% misleading.

It doesn’t take into consideration their contracts at all.

Had they not been attached to hefty contracts, which negates their trade value, their return would have been much greater.


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[yosemiteben]

I do think the narrative that bigs don't matter or that high level contributors are easy to find is exaggerated. The fact that Drummond couldn't get value is more an indictment of his game, personality, and contract than a commentary on the position.

I do agree that in a void it's better to have an elite wing compared to an elite big. With that said, seems like you could make the same argument for PGs - elite wings have more value unless your PG is also a generational scorer and plus defender.

If you buy that Wiseman or someone like Okongwu have higher ceilings / elite potential, and that none of the wing or PG options do, I think you can justify picking them

[JMAC3]

I do think the narrative that bigs don't matter or that high level contributors are easy to find is exaggerated. The fact that Drummond couldn't get value is more an indictment of his game, personality, and contract than a commentary on the position.

I do agree that in a void it's better to have an elite wing compared to an elite big. With that said, seems like you could make the same argument for PGs - elite wings have more value unless your PG is also a generational scorer and plus defender.

If you buy that Wiseman or someone like Okongwu have higher ceilings / elite potential, and that none of the wing or PG options do, I think you can justify picking them

I would agree with this... if we deem that none of the wings/guards are worth a top 5 pick then I’m fine playing it safe with a center.

However, we don’t pick this high very often- so we need to try and capitalize on a guy that could change our franchise. Bigs don’t change franchises very often.


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[BigSlam]

I do think the narrative that bigs don't matter or that high level contributors are easy to find is exaggerated. The fact that Drummond couldn't get value is more an indictment of his game, personality, and contract than a commentary on the position.

I do agree that in a void it's better to have an elite wing compared to an elite big. With that said, seems like you could make the same argument for PGs - elite wings have more value unless your PG is also a generational scorer and plus defender.

If you buy that Wiseman or someone like Okongwu have higher ceilings / elite potential, and that none of the wing or PG options do, I think you can justify picking them

I would agree with this... if we deem that none of the wings/guards are worth a top 5 pick then I’m fine playing it safe with a center.

However, we don’t pick this high very often- so we need to try and capitalize on a guy that could change our franchise. Bigs don’t change franchises very often.


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I’d say that single players don’t change franchises that often.

LeBron couldn’t win a ring in Cleveland initially.
Harden hasn’t won one.
Beal hasn’t won one.
Butler hasn’t won one.
DeRozan hasn’t won one.
George hasn’t won one etc...

Likewise:
Shaq didn’t win one in Orlando.
Howard hasn’t won one.
Embidd hasn’t won one.
KAT hasn’t won one.
Davis hasn’t won one.
Gannias hasn’t won one.
Jokic hasn’t won one etc...

People get so caught up on individual players, but it’s not about individual players. It’s about the sum of all parts.


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[SWedd523]

The Sixers, Wolves, Suns, Grizzlies, and Knicks all used a top 4 pick on a center in the last few years. The results so far are pretty mixed. And the other bigs drafted in the top half of the lottery like Bamba, Carter, Markkanen, Okafor, Bender, and Cauley-Stein aren't doing all that great (jury is still out obviously for a few of them).

Can't you do the same exact thing with guards and wings?

[BigSlam]

The Sixers, Wolves, Suns, Grizzlies, and Knicks all used a top 4 pick on a center in the last few years. The results so far are pretty mixed. And the other bigs drafted in the top half of the lottery like Bamba, Carter, Markkanen, Okafor, Bender, and Cauley-Stein aren't doing all that great (jury is still out obviously for a few of them).

Can't you do the same exact thing with guards and wings?

Historically there are more wings that miss as top #5 picks than there are bigs.

At the very least a bad big can still provide something like size and depth.

A bad wing are guys like Evan Turner, Wesley Johnson, MKG, Waiters, McLemore, Exum, Hezonja, Dunn, Josh Jackson who are barely even in the NBA anymore and who were all taken top #5.

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[Rich4114]

There’s a difference between the Drummond type of centers and the KAT type of centers. If Wiseman has mobility and some skill to him (a shot and range) then he could be tremendously valuable. I don’t want another Emeka Okafor or twilight Dwight Howard.

[James Gatz]

There’s a difference between the Drummond type of centers and the KAT type of centers. If Wiseman has mobility and some skill to him (a shot and range) then he could be tremendously valuable. I don’t want another Emeka Okafor or twilight Dwight Howard.

Wiseman is fairly heavy footed. He definitely falls into the Drummond, Howard, Okafor mold compared to the KAT, KP, AD one.

[Braggins]

There’s a difference between the Drummond type of centers and the KAT type of centers. If Wiseman has mobility and some skill to him (a shot and range) then he could be tremendously valuable. I don’t want another Emeka Okafor or twilight Dwight Howard.

Wiseman is fairly heavy footed. He definitely falls into the Drummond, Howard, Okafor mold compared to the KAT, KP, AD one.

Drummond actually has good mobility for his size. His problems are all mental and effort based. Wiseman looks definitely more mobile than Howard and Okafor, but hes also significantly longer. He looks more mobile than guys with similar measurable like Gobert, Whiteside, and even Embiid (by a smaller margin), but he'll still be a guy that you don't have switch onto perimeter players a lot by design and will be more of a drop coverage guy. His mobility looks to be somewhere in the ball park of Javale Mcgee maybe?

I think the closest comparison for me is that he looks like a faster, more agile, more explosive, version of Whiteside that also isn't a knucklehead and has some touch and potential to shoot and drive a little bit. Basically, I think he might have the potential to be something similar to a more versatile version of what people wanted Whiteside to be.

Id be happy with a 15/12 guy who gets a couple blocks and plays good defense while being at least a slight positive on offense as a rim runner who occasionally hits an outside shot.

[wilson115]

It's all been about Wiseman so far, but what about Okongwu? Defensively, at least, it seems there's objectively cause for optimism he works himself into a Horford-like "modern" big. That is, a big who doesn't get played off the court because he can't switch onto guards and wings facing an NBA offense.

Watch on YouTube

Offensively, however, is the problem as it stands. Clearly, he's more than up to the rim-running/lob-catching part ala John Collins. His shooting and passing though....

Watch on YouTube

It's not just centers, but non-shooters/facilitators at guard and wing also get schemed off the court in the playoffs -- and this even when they contribute enormously in other areas. See: all-world defender Tony Allen with the Grizzlies. Even Ben Simmons, a skilled defender and great ballhandler and passer, gets labeled a net liability as a non-threat outside the paint.

Then again, looking at context, an overall lack of shooters on the roster was a running theme with the Grindhouse Grizzlies, and the same has been said about the current Sixers. Who also happen to be short on playmakers other than Simmons. It doesn't feel like a stretch to think Allen's and Simmon's flaws would've been less debilitating with a more balanced supporting cast. Both helped their teams to deep runs in the playoffs regardless.

The Hornets under Borrego and Kupchak have vocally placed an emphasis on "player development" and, this early, appear to have the track record to back up the talk. Can we trust them to do as much for Onyeka?

If the answer's yes, the hitch here is it begs the question, why go through the trouble for Okongwu in particular? -- Why not another promising but flawed prospect filling an arguably more valuable role than a defensive big. Like Anthony Edwards or a point guard, if Mitch is that confident about his coaches and trainers.

[MasterIchiro]

How someone could suggest that bigs are not needed in today’s NBA and then heavily advocate for someone like Toppin in the top #3 - who is a big himself and also a MASSIVE liability - is staggering and negates their opinion on the value of bigs in today’s NBA IMO.


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We're talking traditional centers. Toppin is a highly skilled stretch 4 who played big minutes at center and profiles as a potential small ball 5 sharing the court with PJ and Miles. Drafting him doesn't mean he plays all his minutes vs. traditional centers and paying a premium for someone with his skill level is different than spending pick 3 on a player with the upside of Andre Drummond.

I'm out on Wiseman. I'm out on traditional centers. I'm not out on bigs. I'm not wanting to be the Houston Rockets. Even the Warriors who built a dynasty going cheap on traditional centers play traditional centers for matchups. I'd sign WCS for season tickets before I spend pick 3 on Wiseman.

[driveandkick]

It's all been about Wiseman so far, but what about Okongwu? Defensively, at least, it seems there's objectively cause for optimism he works himself into a Horford-like "modern" big. That is, a big who doesn't get played off the court because he can't switch onto guards and wings facing an NBA offense.

Watch on YouTube

Offensively, however, is the problem as it stands. Clearly, he's more than up to the rim-running/lob-catching part ala John Collins. His shooting and passing though....

Watch on YouTube

It's not just centers, but non-shooters/facilitators at guard and wing also get schemed off the court in the playoffs -- and this even when they contribute enormously in other areas. See: all-world defender Tony Allen with the Grizzlies. Even Ben Simmons, a skilled defender and great ballhandler and passer, gets labeled a net liability as a non-threat outside the paint.

Then again, looking at context, an overall lack of shooters on the roster was a running theme with the Grindhouse Grizzlies, and the same has been said about the current Sixers. Who also happen to be short on playmakers other than Simmons. It doesn't feel like a stretch to think Allen's and Simmon's flaws would've been less debilitating with a more balanced supporting cast. Both helped their teams to deep runs in the playoffs regardless.

The Hornets under Borrego and Kupchak have vocally placed an emphasis on "player development" and, this early, appear to have the track record to back up the talk. Can we trust them to do as much for Onyeka?

If the answer's yes, the hitch here is it begs the question, why go through the trouble for Okongwu in particular? -- Why not another promising but flawed prospect filling an arguably more valuable role than a defensive big. Like Anthony Edwards or a point guard, if Mitch is that confident about his coaches and trainers.

I’d be very curious to know if Wiseman does anything better than Okongwu right now besides being taller. Dean on Draft says Onyeka is the only really interesting prospect in this class to him.

[316Hornets]

My belief is the team sees Devonte as a star player. We also see PJ as a solid starter. Because of this, we will pick the guy that best fits to maximize those 2 players ability. More importantly, we will want a player that can get Devonte open looks because he has shown great scoring ability.

What players fit that profile? Not Wiseman, Not Edwards.

LaMelo Ball is the high IQ passer this team needs. He is not a selfish player. He can break down defenses and get the open shooter. We have the people in place to make him shine. We don't need him to put up 20 shots a game. People say he can't shoot, that's fine. We don't need him to!

But what about defense??? Defense will come, we can get defenders. We are a young team, let's focus on maximizing our young guys talent.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

316 ... that second video was one of the worst things I've ever seen. I want those minutes of my life back.

To break stuff down. Could the Hornets draft LaMelo? Yes. Could they trade for Lonzo? Not easily. The salaries are too far apart. To make it work other guys would need to be involved. The simplest working deal would be JJ + Lonzo for Terry ... and that's a bad deal for the Pels. They need JJs shooting. Beyond that you are starting with deals involving Jrue and the Pels will need significant value back to trade that guy.

Beyond that I'm not sure that having both Balls on the same team would ever be a good idea.

edit: would be SUPER amusing if the Hornets traded LaMelo for Lonzo as a part of a bigger deal