2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th!

[jnrjr79]

I’d say keep both Lauri and WCJ. See how they perform under a new coach. Make a decision after that.

Yeah, you figure AK probably want at least a half a season until the trade deadline to look at everyone in-person before pulling the trigger on a deal, unless something major (e.g. Embiid) becomes a possibility. I find it hard to believe he'll be dumping Lauri or Wendell to get more assets in a weaker draft.

[LateNight]

I believe that.

I disagree with this. You could make make an argument that Carter still has the highest ceiling of our young players.

I’m not sure - but I wouldn’t be surprised Carters defensive awareness and impact on any given night had more value than an average night of Lauri’s offense.

Ha. Well not to sound like I agree with everybody, but I agree with you as well. Not about Carter having the highest ceiling (I think it's Coby or Zach), but his impact can have more value than Lauri's offense.

But for better or worse, I do think Artunas will do what he can to put Lauri in a situation to succeed.

Both had injury riddled regression seasons. Big men do generally take time to develop. I just don't see a light at the end of the tunnel unless they develop some fairly lofty goals though (Lauri - 40%+ 3P, 5+ FTApg, 10+ rpg... WCJ needs to develop a good jumper out of nothing). It didn't happen often, but when he was healthy and in shape, Wendell's defense was good for the team.

I agree about Zach (and possibly Coby) having the clearest upside, but I can see the argument for Wendell. He sees the court really well considering his age, and already has a well rounded game. Seems to have (potentially) good playmaking ability and there is reason to believe he can do more offensively than he was doing. There were times where it seemed like he was clearly asked not to take shots on offense.

Now, if Wendell starts shooting 40% from 3 (which he did at Duke), I can still see the argument for him being an elite small ball center.

[BullsFTW]

They do have similarities. Both are solid ball-handlers, cerebral passers, and have a high basketball IQ. But it stops at that. Luka has way more scoring skills and he does it consistently. Although Deni is a little more athletic, Luka’s overall skill set at the same age is a level ahead of Deni. To be fair, I can’t think of anyone who was more skilled than Luka at the same age the past two decades.

That was a very thorough evaluation you’ve provided. It must have taken a lot of your time to post a gif.

[Grodoboldo]

I disagree with this. You could make make an argument that Carter still has the highest ceiling of our young players.

I’m not sure - but I wouldn’t be surprised Carters defensive awareness and impact on any given night had more value than an average night of Lauri’s offense.

Ha. Well not to sound like I agree with everybody, but I agree with you as well. Not about Carter having the highest ceiling (I think it's Coby or Zach), but his impact can have more value than Lauri's offense.

But for better or worse, I do think Artunas will do what he can to put Lauri in a situation to succeed.

Both had injury riddled regression seasons. Big men do generally take time to develop. I just don't see a light at the end of the tunnel unless they develop some fairly lofty goals though (Lauri - 40%+ 3P, 5+ FTApg, 10+ rpg... WCJ needs to develop a good jumper out of nothing). It didn't happen often, but when he was healthy and in shape, Wendell's defense was good for the team.

I agree about Zach (and possibly Coby) having the clearest upside, but I can see the argument for Wendell. He sees the court really well considering his age, and already has a well rounded game. Seems to have (potentially) good playmaking ability and there is reason to believe he can do more offensively than he was doing. There were times where it seemed like he was clearly asked not to take shots on offense.

Now, if Wendell starts shooting 40% from 3 (which he did at Duke), I can still see the argument for him being an elite small ball center.

I really think a good coach will unlock Wendell's potential. He'd be a great passing hub at the FT line. Also, I believe that if we get yet another ball handler, he'd be great in screen the screener actions with LaVine, White and the new guy. The defense is there, just let him be a real 5 and not get stuck trapping the ball handler every single time.

[kulaz3000]

Not a fan of Wiseman either.

We already have a player who can do what Wiseman can do in Gafford.

[Leslie Forman]

What? I’m not big fans of either Lauri or Wendell mainly due to their fit in the modern NBA. However, show me the great players that were drafted after them? BTW we haven’t paid them anything. Harris and Horford are the worst overpays in the league right now and as mentioned above no one is getting paid for at least two more FAs w cap dipping big time.

Mitchell? SGA? Bam?

Honestly I don't even care if the guys they picked stunk. It's the draft. Everyone gets it wrong. It's the type of player that was the mistake. A soft, low motor, no defense stretch center who doesn't want to (and can't, really) play center? And then right after that, an unathletic, undersized center who it turns out also doesn't actually want to play center? All the picks from MyHusbandPax post-Matt Lloyd were low ceiling, anti-modern basketball guys.

Screwing it up with two high draft picks is basically the equivalent of two bad four-year contracts, because you are stuck hoping they are good, and end up just wasting years when they aren't.

[Jcool0]

They do have similarities. Both are solid ball-handlers, cerebral passers, and have a high basketball IQ. But it stops at that. Luka has way more scoring skills and he does it consistently. Although Deni is a little more athletic, Luka’s overall skill set at the same age is a level ahead of Deni. To be fair, I can’t think of anyone who was more skilled than Luka at the same age the past two decades.

That was a very thorough evaluation you’ve provided. It must have taken a lot of your time to post a gif.

I need to give you an evaluation of LeBron James? You aren't serious are you?

[ChiCitySPORTS#1]

Not a fan of Wiseman either.

We already have a player who can do what Wiseman can do in Gafford.

This is a really bad over generalization and a wrong one. You can’t throw the ball to Gafford and expect him to do anything with it. Gafford is less skilled than Tyrus Thomas was his rookie year. All he can do is be an athlete.

[Chi town]

What? I’m not big fans of either Lauri or Wendell mainly due to their fit in the modern NBA. However, show me the great players that were drafted after them? BTW we haven’t paid them anything. Harris and Horford are the worst overpays in the league right now and as mentioned above no one is getting paid for at least two more FAs w cap dipping big time.

Mitchell? SGA? Bam?

Honestly I don't even care if the guys they picked stunk. It's the draft. Everyone gets it wrong. It's the type of player that was the mistake. A soft, low motor, no defense stretch center who doesn't want to (and can't, really) play center? And then right after that, an unathletic, undersized center who it turns out also doesn't actually want to play center? All the picks from MyHusbandPax post-Matt Lloyd were low ceiling, anti-modern basketball guys.

Screwing it up with two high draft picks is basically the equivalent of two bad four-year contracts, because you are stuck hoping they are good, and end up just wasting years when they aren't.

agree with the type of player Being wrong. This is where aau he has gotten it right. Replacing Kyrie w Kemba and dumping Horford too.

[Grodoboldo]

Not a fan of Wiseman either.

We already have a player who can do what Wiseman can do in Gafford.

This is a really bad over generalization and a wrong one. You can’t throw the ball to Gafford and expect him to do anything with it. Gafford is less skilled than Tyrus Thomas was his rookie year. All he can do is be an athlete.

Well, it's kinda hard to know what Wiseman can do. He played 3 games, 2 of them against **** teams.
His greatest ability so far is size. And hype.
Reminds me a lot of Garland's hype around this board last year. It's almost like some guys actually benefit from playing less.

[ChiCitySPORTS#1]

Not a fan of Wiseman either.

We already have a player who can do what Wiseman can do in Gafford.

This is a really bad over generalization and a wrong one. You can’t throw the ball to Gafford and expect him to do anything with it. Gafford is less skilled than Tyrus Thomas was his rookie year. All he can do is be an athlete.

Well, it's kinda hard to know what Wiseman can do. He played 3 games, 2 of them against **** teams.
His greatest ability so far is size. And hype.
Reminds me a lot of Garland's hype around this board last year. It's almost like some guys actually benefit from playing less.

I actually don’t care for Wiseman, but to say he’s no better than Gafford —who at the moment is literally barely an NBA player is silly.

[Grodoboldo]

This is a really bad over generalization and a wrong one. You can’t throw the ball to Gafford and expect him to do anything with it. Gafford is less skilled than Tyrus Thomas was his rookie year. All he can do is be an athlete.

Well, it's kinda hard to know what Wiseman can do. He played 3 games, 2 of them against **** teams.
His greatest ability so far is size. And hype.
Reminds me a lot of Garland's hype around this board last year. It's almost like some guys actually benefit from playing less.

I actually don’t care for Wiseman, but to say he’s no better than Gafford —who at the moment is literally barely an NBA player is silly.

I see what you mean. I think that Kulaz probably meant it as in a players mold. Also, we already have Gafford in a very friendly contract. People are talking about giving up multiple picks for Wiseman. For me, that's crazy!!! Trust me, I'm all for doing everything you can to get a guy that you think is IT (I was going nuts here when it seemed that Atlanta would be willing to trade the pick that became Doncic). I just don't see any one like that in draft.

[kulaz3000]

Not a fan of Wiseman either.

We already have a player who can do what Wiseman can do in Gafford.

This is a really bad over generalization and a wrong one. You can’t throw the ball to Gafford and expect him to do anything with it. Gafford is less skilled than Tyrus Thomas was his rookie year. All he can do is be an athlete.

Wiseman isn't exactly a scorer in the post either. Right now his biggest asset is rim running and getting lobs. You can't consistently expect him to get the ball and get the ball in the hoop. He is far from a proven player. He is much more a player with potential than production right now. SImilar to Gafford, with Gafford being a better defensive player.

[kulaz3000]

Well, it's kinda hard to know what Wiseman can do. He played 3 games, 2 of them against **** teams.
His greatest ability so far is size. And hype.
Reminds me a lot of Garland's hype around this board last year. It's almost like some guys actually benefit from playing less.

I actually don’t care for Wiseman, but to say he’s no better than Gafford —who at the moment is literally barely an NBA player is silly.

I see what you mean. I think that Kulaz probably meant it as in a players mold. Also, we already have Gafford in a very friendly contract. People are talking about giving up multiple picks for Wiseman. For me, that's crazy!!! Trust me, I'm all for doing everything you can to get a guy that you think is IT (I was going nuts here when it seemed that Atlanta would be willing to trade the pick that became Doncic). I just don't see any one like that in draft.

That's my point.

Sure, I can concede the fact that on paper, Wiseman has more potential, but it's not like Gafford doesn't have plenty of room to grow either. Now, if Wiseman had played more games against quality competition and showed something, I may think otherwise, but right now, he is unproven and mostly hype.

They are both long, they are both athletes, neither are relaible scorers, they both benefit from lobs and running the floor to get the majority of their baskets. They both need a lot of work on their bodies.

I mean, the front office and scouting staff better see that he has plenty of offensive potential, with the hopes that he could eventually extend out to the 3 point line, to pick him. Right now, unless they are sure-fire prospects, I'd prefer to draft a wing or a guard, a player like Wiseman or Gafford aren't going to be there when a game is decided because they are labiliities on the offensive end. Nor would they be able to keep up defensively with many teams going small down the stretch these days.

[GimmeDat]

Wiseman is about the most disappointing selection I can think of at 4. Don't fall for him being a monster athlete, that's not the end all be all. How many dominant big men are there in today's game and how do they play? Wiseman does not have the requisite IQ/feel, skill level, or instincts on either end to be a star, imo. I don't dislike him, I think he'll be a starter in this league, but he's arguably the 4th best big in the draft, imo, let alone the 4th best player.

[kulaz3000]

Wiseman is about the most disappointing selection I can think of at 4. Don't fall for him being a monster athlete, that's not the end all be all. How many dominant big men are there in today's game and how do they play? Wiseman does not have the requisite IQ/feel, skill level, or instincts on either end to be a star, imo. I don't dislike him, I think he'll be a starter in this league, but he's arguably the 4th best big in the draft, imo, let alone the 4th best player.

This is why he is a perfect selection for Michael Jordan.

[PlayerUp]

I'm not saying Avdija is going to be the next Luka, in fact, I'm not convinced Luka is even a good comparison for him. However, if Avdija is half of what Luka is you got yourself a really damn good player.

So Luka put up 43 Points, 13 Assists, 17 Rebounds today

Half of Luka is = 21.5 Points, 6.5 Assists, 8.5 Rebounds

No brainier if that's the case. Avdija at #4.

Player evaluation really doesn't work that way, but I'm sure you already know that.

I don't know where this comparision started, but people need to stop with this.

Luka is a generational player, Deni is going to be lucky to be a starter calibre player in this league, and even that, I'm not entirely convinced he can be.

This is the argument you make when someone says someone is 1/50 or 1/2 of another player.

[PlayerUp]

Wiseman is about the most disappointing selection I can think of at 4. Don't fall for him being a monster athlete, that's not the end all be all. How many dominant big men are there in today's game and how do they play? Wiseman does not have the requisite IQ/feel, skill level, or instincts on either end to be a star, imo. I don't dislike him, I think he'll be a starter in this league, but he's arguably the 4th best big in the draft, imo, let alone the 4th best player.

We literally have seen very little of James Wiseman to even judge him.

Again this is why predraft workouts, interviews, measurements, draft matchups are vitally important for this draft. With the season cut short and a large % of these players not even playing most of the NCAA season, this draft feels like a draft filled with Darius Garlands who didn't play and we're drafting based on limited film.

This is the one draft where the draft experts could be dead wrong right now. The draft order could completely change and guys currently slotted 5-10 could go into the Top 3. AK needs to narrow down his options and ask these guys for multiple workouts seeing if they can make improvements over a short span of time.

[Chi town]

Wiseman is about the most disappointing selection I can think of at 4. Don't fall for him being a monster athlete, that's not the end all be all. How many dominant big men are there in today's game and how do they play? Wiseman does not have the requisite IQ/feel, skill level, or instincts on either end to be a star, imo. I don't dislike him, I think he'll be a starter in this league, but he's arguably the 4th best big in the draft, imo, let alone the 4th best player.

We literally have seen very little of James Wiseman to even judge him.

Again this is why predraft workouts, interviews, measurements, draft matchups are vitally important for this draft. With the season cut short and a large % of these players not even playing most of the NCAA season, this draft feels like a draft filled with Darius Garlands who didn't play and we're drafting based on limited film.

This is the one draft where the draft experts could be dead wrong right now. The draft order could completely change and guys currently slotted 5-10 could go into the Top 3. AK needs to narrow down his options and ask these guys for multiple workouts seeing if they can make improvements over a short span of time.

AK has already said he gives very little weight to workouts and bases his reviews on in game play.

[GimmeDat]

Wiseman is about the most disappointing selection I can think of at 4. Don't fall for him being a monster athlete, that's not the end all be all. How many dominant big men are there in today's game and how do they play? Wiseman does not have the requisite IQ/feel, skill level, or instincts on either end to be a star, imo. I don't dislike him, I think he'll be a starter in this league, but he's arguably the 4th best big in the draft, imo, let alone the 4th best player.

We literally have seen very little of James Wiseman to even judge him.

Again this is why predraft workouts, interviews, measurements, draft matchups are vitally important for this draft. With the season cut short and a large % of these players not even playing most of the NCAA season, this draft feels like a draft filled with Darius Garlands who didn't play and we're drafting based on limited film.

This is the one draft where the draft experts could be dead wrong right now. The draft order could completely change and guys currently slotted 5-10 could go into the Top 3. AK needs to narrow down his options and ask these guys for multiple workouts seeing if they can make improvements over a short span of time.

There's plenty of diligent students of his tape over on Twitter who concur with the same issues over his HS/AAU sample.

I agree that those things will be more important than usual, but let's be honest, things like the combine and workouts can more often be red herrings than valuable pieces of information. All too often we hear teams being swayed by a strong workout or measurements when in reality, all those things, if translatable to the court, are clearly evidenced over the entire sample of competitive play up to that point.

Apart from very particular observations you can only make in person, I would put very little weight into pre-draft workouts, in particular.