Mock and big board thread for 2020 lottery and beyond

[Stillwater]

Thought I would start a thread only for Mocks and Big boards even though we have many other draft threads open right now.
Here is an example first round mock based on old information and subject to many changes if there are ever any combine or workouts to raise or lower stocks from medicals to dissapointing measureables or surprises athletically etc.
https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/draft_simulator/view/764396/
I feel that Edwards,Wiseman and Ball are top 4 locks so my CLE BPA big board excluding those 3 for now is this:
Hayes
Okongwu
Okoro
Vassell
Avdija
Halliburton

I think they will likely not see enough difference in bpa between Hayes and Okongwu to not pull the trigger on the big for fit...
but if O is gone sooner the difference between Hayes and others might not be enough to pass on Hayes.

[Revenged25]

Avdija
Vassell
Okoro
Pokusevski
Okongwu
Williams
Hayes
Halliburton

That's my list.

[Stillwater]

Avdija
Vassell
Okoro
Pokusevski
Okongwu
Williams
Hayes
Halliburton

That's my list.

yeah my big board personally differs from what I posted as what I beleive is the Cavs bb where Hayes is the BPA in some situations

[Revenged25]

Avdija
Vassell
Okoro
Pokusevski
Okongwu
Williams
Hayes
Halliburton

That's my list.

yeah my big board personally differs from what I posted as what I beleive is the Cavs bb where Hayes is the BPA in some situations

Well I still think that Avdija is going to be the top of the Cavs board.

[Stillwater]

Avdija
Vassell
Okoro
Pokusevski
Okongwu
Williams
Hayes
Halliburton

That's my list.

yeah my big board personally differs from what I posted as what I beleive is the Cavs bb where Hayes is the BPA in some situations

Well I still think that Avdija is going to be the top of the Cavs board.

I completely understand the intrgue with his bbiq and potential should he develop at least into a reasonably solid outside threat...but there are just so many things he does good not great and next to nothing he does at a high level, that he comes off as a luke warm floor propect and could easily bust if not given the proper directives.
Either way nothing would surprise me with this orgs seemingly corporate influenced decisions about marketability as opposed to team building that he could be the pick if for no other reason than to generate Jersey sales for NBA fans with Israeli heritage

[Stillwater]

so here is one with some pretty wild trades and the Cavs not only getting lucked into 3lead guards in the top 4 where Wiseman falls to 5 but also in getting some interesting role players later with the focus on defense in Bey and the focus on hustle energy and rebounding from Hinton
I also would not be at all surprised if this org targets a true pass first pg like Flynn somewhere post lottery assuming they dont take one at 5.
https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/draft_simulator/view/766453/

[Stillwater]

This one is way outside the box thinking but just might be worth it... if it were possible lol...
Cavs trade their 21 1st unprotected and 5th overall in 2020 to Wolves for 1 and 17.
Then they trade DG to Detroit with 17th for 7th where they get lucked into Okongwu to reunite him with Ball and also get Kyrie Thomas ( sg-former big east DPOY 2 years in a row ) from Det in the trade.
Cavs then buy a late first to stash Poku
there are a couple other moves by other orgs in this one that seem possible given the number of tax teams in a weak draft.

https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/draft_simulator/view/768732/

Note I am not advocating this type of move, but if they really want to win sooner this would help

[Stillwater]

probably getting carried away but this crazy one Cavs make 2 trades.
They ship out Garland Exum Cedi the 5th etc and gain Simons Little Vassell Oubre Smith and Terry
https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/draft_simulator/view/769136/
with Vassell and KPJ at the 2-3 and Oubre & Little at the 3-4 with Smith at the 4-5 and Terry as a potential sleeper steal pg with Sexton at the 1-2 along with Simons add KLove and Nance still in play a few seasons and you got a playoff roster for years add the Cavs own pick next year on center Ibou Dianko Badji in the 10-15 range LOL

[Stillwater]

This would be an interesting option imo if Okongwu and WIseman are gone at 5
https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/draft_simulator/view/769873/

Cavs trade 5th overall and Exum's expiring to NY for 27th overall & Mitch Robinson .
They also get back Frank Ntilikina and the Dallas 211st top 4 protected( if not transferred Cavs get NY 22 first swap rights and their rights to 21 Det 2nd.
Cavs draft defensive prospect Paul Reed at 27 and probably a high motor wing like Hinton or a shooter like Quickly at 38 if no stash options are left.

Ny gets arguably the top pg in the draft and add Deni as well

[Stillwater]

This one Cavs luck into Wiseman with Okongwu moving up to 3 and the Bulls taking Okoro.
I also have the Cavs buying 1 of PHI 4 seconds to snag a sleeper wing
https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/draft_simulator/view/771778/

[jbk1234]

This is a good read.

Read on Twitter

?s=20

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[Revenged25]

It was a good article but the last one is a little off. Okoro definitely has a bankable skill and that's just pure defense. Sure his offense is meh and will need development, but his defense is damn good. Also I would like to point out that I'm pretty sure every single "master of none" concern players were also in one or more of the other concern areas. Like Mario Herzonja showed up in 3 concern areas before even being considered a master of none. So I unless Deni and Okoro both fall into that scenario where they are failing in multiple other areas as well, I think worry about them not being a "master of one" is overblown.

Not having a bankable skill AND being deficient in every other area is going to lead you to being a failure, plain and simple. But not having a bankable skill but being pretty good in every area will at least make you worthy of being the 4th or 5th best player on a championship caliber team.

[jbk1234]

It was a good article but the last one is a little off. Okoro definitely has a bankable skill and that's just pure defense. Sure his offense is meh and will need development, but his defense is damn good. Also I would like to point out that I'm pretty sure every single "master of none" concern players were also in one or more of the other concern areas. Like Mario Herzonja showed up in 3 concern areas before even being considered a master of none. So I unless Deni and Okoro both fall into that scenario where they are failing in multiple other areas as well, I think worry about them not being a "master of one" is overblown.

Not having a bankable skill AND being deficient in every other area is going to lead you to being a failure, plain and simple. But not having a bankable skill but being pretty good in every area will at least make you worthy of being the 4th or 5th best player on a championship caliber team.

Yeah, I agree. MKG could defend and Buddy Heild could shoot. Neither were busts but it looks like both are going to disappoint. The author would've been better explaining that than going with the no true Scotsman fallacy.

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[JonFromVA]

The one thing I've learned is to take the draft reports from these media pundits with a huge grain of salt, the quality varies greatly, and if you want to take away one thing from them ... it would be the list of "weaknesses". If you think a player would be pretty good even if he never reaches his presumed ceiling and most all his weaknesses are still there, you may have a good prospect.

The whole process is extremely flawed due to the varying and unknown level of competition. Even if you narrow your scouting to just how a player performs against other top prospects that too can be flawed if the other top prospects are not very good.

Performance as a freshman is a big deal because there are so many challenges for an 18 year old playing against older players, but some players just aren't physically mature enough at that age to make an impact and/or they're still learning the game and playing catch up with their competition. So, we shouldn't write off a player who doesn't make an immediate impact as a freshman.

Oh, and before writing off a player perceived to be a good all-around player but master of none ... consider that's how Jimmy Butler was once perceived. Kawhi Leonard and Giannis Antentekoumpo both had some exceptional physical attributes, but were not thought to be very good at anything. Evaluating which players might work hard enough and care enough to reach their ceiling is a big part of scouting these days.

[Stillwater]

Unless they pull the trigger 3 years in a row on a ball dominant guard like Ball or Hayes whomever falls to 5 then Okongwu is the best outcome should they be lucky enough to have the opportunity to pick him and if he is gone its probably should be Vassell even though I dont think they are smart enough to see his upside. Either way they are the safest picks in the 4-6 range imo...with the other one being Hayes.
I can be sold on Okoro because his shot aint completely broken and his slashing ability is legit to match his defensive intensity, But in trade downs there is a long list of options that become appealing as role players or long term projects like Ramsey,Achiuwa,Stewart, Smith, Oturu , Stanley,Poku,Nesmith,Hinton, Williams, Green, Maxey,Nnaji etc.
Now if they are really high on some other kid at 5 based on potential despite no masterfull skill yet but a solid foundation like a Avdija or Halliburton the latter of which can at least shoot a high % and pass at a reasonable rate despite not having a great handle either...then either one would be acceptable to me in the late lottery if they can pick up a 21 1st.

[jbk1234]

Unless they pull the trigger 3 years in a row on a ball dominant guard like Ball or Hayes whomever falls to 5 then Okongwu is the best outcome should they be lucky enough to have the opportunity to pick him and if he is gone its probably should be Vassell even though I dont think they are smart enough to see his upside. Either way they are the safest picks in the 4-6 range imo...with the other one being Hayes.
I can be sold on Okoro because his shot aint completely broken and his slashing ability is legit to match his defensive intensity, But in trade downs there is a long list of options that become appealing as role players or long term projects like Ramsey,Achiuwa,Stewart, Smith, Oturu , Stanley,Poku,Nesmith,Hinton, Williams, Green, Maxey,Nnaji etc.
Now if they are really high on some other kid at 5 based on potential despite no masterfull skill yet but a solid foundation like a Avdija or Halliburton the latter of which can at least shoot a high % and pass at a reasonable rate despite not having a great handle either...then either one would be acceptable to me in the late lottery if they can pick up a 21 1st.

I think the Knicks might have to trade up for Ball for Okongwu to fall to No. 5. If Ball falls to No. 5, I hope the Knicks call us with a decent offer. I suspect Okoro and/or Hayes and/or Vassell (who I'm taking a second look at tbh) will be there at No. 8. CBS has us taking Toppin who I'm really underwhelmed with.

[JonFromVA]

Unless they pull the trigger 3 years in a row on a ball dominant guard like Ball or Hayes whomever falls to 5 then Okongwu is the best outcome should they be lucky enough to have the opportunity to pick him and if he is gone its probably should be Vassell even though I dont think they are smart enough to see his upside. Either way they are the safest picks in the 4-6 range imo...with the other one being Hayes.
I can be sold on Okoro because his shot aint completely broken and his slashing ability is legit to match his defensive intensity, But in trade downs there is a long list of options that become appealing as role players or long term projects like Ramsey,Achiuwa,Stewart, Smith, Oturu , Stanley,Poku,Nesmith,Hinton, Williams, Green, Maxey,Nnaji etc.
Now if they are really high on some other kid at 5 based on potential despite no masterfull skill yet but a solid foundation like a Avdija or Halliburton the latter of which can at least shoot a high % and pass at a reasonable rate despite not having a great handle either...then either one would be acceptable to me in the late lottery if they can pick up a 21 1st.

I think the Knicks might have to trade up for Ball for Okongwu to fall to No. 5. If Ball falls to No. 5, I hope the Knicks call us with a decent offer. I suspect Okoro and/or Hayes and/or Vassell (who I'm taking a second look at tbh) will be there at No. 8. CBS has us taking Toppin who I'm really underwhelmed with.

Well, assuming NY isn't willing to make a Doncic like offer, how badly do you want Frank Ntkilina or perhaps Alonzo Trier?

[gflem]

Unless they pull the trigger 3 years in a row on a ball dominant guard like Ball or Hayes whomever falls to 5 then Okongwu is the best outcome should they be lucky enough to have the opportunity to pick him and if he is gone its probably should be Vassell even though I dont think they are smart enough to see his upside. Either way they are the safest picks in the 4-6 range imo...with the other one being Hayes.
I can be sold on Okoro because his shot aint completely broken and his slashing ability is legit to match his defensive intensity, But in trade downs there is a long list of options that become appealing as role players or long term projects like Ramsey,Achiuwa,Stewart, Smith, Oturu , Stanley,Poku,Nesmith,Hinton, Williams, Green, Maxey,Nnaji etc.
Now if they are really high on some other kid at 5 based on potential despite no masterfull skill yet but a solid foundation like a Avdija or Halliburton the latter of which can at least shoot a high % and pass at a reasonable rate despite not having a great handle either...then either one would be acceptable to me in the late lottery if they can pick up a 21 1st.

I think the Knicks might have to trade up for Ball for Okongwu to fall to No. 5. If Ball falls to No. 5, I hope the Knicks call us with a decent offer. I suspect Okoro and/or Hayes and/or Vassell (who I'm taking a second look at tbh) will be there at No. 8. CBS has us taking Toppin who I'm really underwhelmed with.

Well, assuming NY isn't willing to make a Doncic like offer, how badly do you want Frank Ntkilina or perhaps Alonzo Trier?

More like 8 and 27 and maybe future 2nd. Not really interested in NY castoffs to move down.

[jbk1234]

I think the Knicks might have to trade up for Ball for Okongwu to fall to No. 5. If Ball falls to No. 5, I hope the Knicks call us with a decent offer. I suspect Okoro and/or Hayes and/or Vassell (who I'm taking a second look at tbh) will be there at No. 8. CBS has us taking Toppin who I'm really underwhelmed with.

Well, assuming NY isn't willing to make a Doncic like offer, how badly do you want Frank Ntkilina or perhaps Alonzo Trier?

More like 8 and 27 and maybe future 2nd. Not really interested in NY castoffs to move down.

I want a future first or they can bounce. The Mavs will be a playoff team next year. Their pick will suffice.

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[gflem]

Well, assuming NY isn't willing to make a Doncic like offer, how badly do you want Frank Ntkilina or perhaps Alonzo Trier?

More like 8 and 27 and maybe future 2nd. Not really interested in NY castoffs to move down.

I want a future first or they can bounce. The Mavs will be a playoff team next year. Their pick will suffice.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app[/quote
My guess is that NY tries to move up higher than us to get Ball if their reported interest is true. I don't think they would wait for him to fall to 5, they aren't the most patient organization. We would likely have to take on some salary to entice them to give up a first next year if Ball drops to 5 and they deal with us.