Moderators: HomoSapien, Ice Man, Michael Jackson, dougthonus, Tommy Udo 6 , kulaz3000, fleet, DASMACKDOWN, GimmeDat, RedBulls23, AshyLarrysDiaper, coldfish, Payt10
coldfish wrote:Trade up for Edwards or trade out of the pick. Wendell + #4 for #1. Who says no?
Leslie Forman wrote:This is probably going to follow most awful drafts and end up with its best player being, like, the 19th pick.
Leslie Forman wrote:coldfish wrote:Trade up for Edwards or trade out of the pick. Wendell + #4 for #1. Who says no?
Minnesota, unfortunately. Wendell is an awful fit with Towns. Unless someone like Brad Beal or Ben Simmons is available I think they're just gonna stick with picking the one high ceiling guy in this draft.
I've resorted to looking deep for possible Lowry/VanVleet/Dragic sleeper point guards. This is probably going to follow most awful drafts and end up with its best player being, like, the 19th pick.
PlayerUp wrote:Probably? Statistically the odds of this happening are next to nothing. The best players are at the top.
Leslie Forman wrote:Every draft has some surprise sleepers, but all-time awful drafts in the low info high school/one-and-done era that don't have a clear stud or two at the top (like this one) are ripe for some random unheralded guy to end up being the best player, because the rest of the class is so weak. Hence you end up with 2000 and 2013.
weneeda2guard wrote:I'm sold on obi toppin
PlayerUp wrote:Leslie Forman wrote:This is probably going to follow most awful drafts and end up with its best player being, like, the 19th pick.
Probably? Statistically the odds of this happening are next to nothing.
_txchilibowl_ wrote:Jordan Syndrome wrote:Spoiler:
I think you should be careful with engaging with people who believe they can analyze a high school player with any sort of accuracy as "GimmeDat" does. I am sure the guy knows a lot more about specific prospects than I do but if someone posting on the internet is able to make claims of a guy widely regarded as a top-5 pick as "Arguably 4th best big man in the draft" means the guy is either a genius and should be hired by an NBA Team yesterday, or is very emotional about players in this draft and likely shouldn't be engaged with in meaningful discussion regarding the draft. Food for thought.
I think the best thing the Bulls can do with the pick is use it as a cornerstone trade for Embiid or Simmons. As soon as Philly hires a new GM the Bulls need to be on the phone with a strong offer, something like #4, 2022 Unprotected 1st, Lauri and Otto for Embiid.
If GimmeDat is saying it I'm listening closely. He's been one of the best draft evaluators we've had on this board for a while....
Showtime23 wrote:no wisemans height, wingspan, athleticism is at worst a top 3 pick in this draft.
its not like his jumper is broken to the point he will be limited to Whiteside/Capella.
Center position you need as much athleticism as possible to overpower your opponent like a Shaq/Howard enforcer.
Just look at our own Gafford. Him having elite athleticism is what makes him distinguishes from someone like Carter who is so slow and overweight he is getting useless. But Gafford alone is not enough and Wiseman is several times better version of him with range that can extend to the 3. Theres not a single wing/guard prospect thats simply better than Wiseman when they are unproven as well.
Obviously, a lot will depend on which team he will get drafted to. He will be a stud if he gets taught by Dray but I still want Chicago to nab him if Edwards and Ball are gone.
GimmeDat wrote:_txchilibowl_ wrote:Jordan Syndrome wrote:Spoiler:
I think you should be careful with engaging with people who believe they can analyze a high school player with any sort of accuracy as "GimmeDat" does. I am sure the guy knows a lot more about specific prospects than I do but if someone posting on the internet is able to make claims of a guy widely regarded as a top-5 pick as "Arguably 4th best big man in the draft" means the guy is either a genius and should be hired by an NBA Team yesterday, or is very emotional about players in this draft and likely shouldn't be engaged with in meaningful discussion regarding the draft. Food for thought.
I think the best thing the Bulls can do with the pick is use it as a cornerstone trade for Embiid or Simmons. As soon as Philly hires a new GM the Bulls need to be on the phone with a strong offer, something like #4, 2022 Unprotected 1st, Lauri and Otto for Embiid.
If GimmeDat is saying it I'm listening closely. He's been one of the best draft evaluators we've had on this board for a while....
Appreciate that.
I'm not personally claiming to have seen heaps of him before the college level - I've seen a few games, nothing more.. but it is stuff that is line with the small sample we did see at college, and in line with a lot better evaluators that I follow on different platforms that feel the same way about him.
Declaring him 'arguably the 4th best big in the draft' isn't as crazy as it sounds. Here as some examples of evaluators that I regard highly, and their boards. Take note of both Poku and Wiseman -Spoiler:
You don't have to hold those opinions with any weight if you don't know those individuals, but at least know I'm not alone in my opinion. It's also worth noting that there are others they don't have Poku in the lottery at all either - he is definitely more divisive.. but then again, a number of the above don't have Wiseman top 10, either. The last tweet there is from Spencer, who is from the Knicks board and arguably the most well regarded draft analyst on the realgm boards. He's worked with NBA franchises.
I'm not trying to come across as some draft savant, just expressing my own opinion, take it for what you will. I think he's somewhere in that crop of Okongwu, Wiseman, Toppin and himself as the top 4 bigs in this draft. Hopefully that explains why I think Wiseman is *arguably* the 4th best big in the draft.Showtime23 wrote:no wisemans height, wingspan, athleticism is at worst a top 3 pick in this draft.
its not like his jumper is broken to the point he will be limited to Whiteside/Capella.
Center position you need as much athleticism as possible to overpower your opponent like a Shaq/Howard enforcer.
Just look at our own Gafford. Him having elite athleticism is what makes him distinguishes from someone like Carter who is so slow and overweight he is getting useless. But Gafford alone is not enough and Wiseman is several times better version of him with range that can extend to the 3. Theres not a single wing/guard prospect thats simply better than Wiseman when they are unproven as well.
Obviously, a lot will depend on which team he will get drafted to. He will be a stud if he gets taught by Dray but I still want Chicago to nab him if Edwards and Ball are gone.
I think your comparison is a good example of where our player evaluation differs, because I find WCJ to be a far superior player to Gafford.
There's far more to the C position than being tall, athletic and long. Gafford is close to elite in all those respects, and he is a backup C. If you just want a guy to rim run and protect the paint, those guys are actually relatively dime a dozen. Obviously Wiseman has some projection as a shooter, which is good, but it's not an outlier skill of his.
It's also about how you use those physical tools - these are some less than ideal examples -
?s=20
?s=20
I'm not trying to say Wiseman won't be a good NBA player, but I do think he's overrated.
It's really good to show the lowlights instead of just the highlights. Wiseman could be the next David Robinson...OR...the next Anthony Randolph lolTheSuzerain wrote:Yeah **** like that is alarming.
You almost want the less skilled guy who knows his role at center rather than the "skilled big" who shoots a decent chunk of shots on turnarounds and stuff in the mid range.
sco wrote:MrFortune3 wrote:kulaz3000 wrote:Not a fan of Wiseman either.
We already have a player who can do what Wiseman can do in Gafford.
Wiseman is a different breed than anything we have on the roster. Disliking Wiseman is one thing, saying something like this is just disingenuous.
Statistically, using a high pick on a big man in the top 5 picks in recent years has shown not to be a good pick. IMO, Wiseman's appeal is that he's shown less last season, and most didn't like what they saw from others. So it's like saying "I know these other guys' aren't stars, I haven't seen you, so I must like you better - despite the fact that you showed nothing special."
I will say kudos to Wiseman for getting the most value out of not playing.
GimmeDat wrote:_txchilibowl_ wrote:Jordan Syndrome wrote:Spoiler:
I think you should be careful with engaging with people who believe they can analyze a high school player with any sort of accuracy as "GimmeDat" does. I am sure the guy knows a lot more about specific prospects than I do but if someone posting on the internet is able to make claims of a guy widely regarded as a top-5 pick as "Arguably 4th best big man in the draft" means the guy is either a genius and should be hired by an NBA Team yesterday, or is very emotional about players in this draft and likely shouldn't be engaged with in meaningful discussion regarding the draft. Food for thought.
I think the best thing the Bulls can do with the pick is use it as a cornerstone trade for Embiid or Simmons. As soon as Philly hires a new GM the Bulls need to be on the phone with a strong offer, something like #4, 2022 Unprotected 1st, Lauri and Otto for Embiid.
If GimmeDat is saying it I'm listening closely. He's been one of the best draft evaluators we've had on this board for a while....
Appreciate that.
I'm not personally claiming to have seen heaps of him before the college level - I've seen a few games, nothing more.. but it is stuff that is line with the small sample we did see at college, and in line with a lot better evaluators that I follow on different platforms that feel the same way about him.
Declaring him 'arguably the 4th best big in the draft' isn't as crazy as it sounds. Here as some examples of evaluators that I regard highly, and their boards. Take note of both Poku and Wiseman -Spoiler:
You don't have to hold those opinions with any weight if you don't know those individuals, but at least know I'm not alone in my opinion. It's also worth noting that there are others they don't have Poku in the lottery at all either - he is definitely more divisive.. but then again, a number of the above don't have Wiseman top 10, either. The last tweet there is from Spencer, who is from the Knicks board and arguably the most well regarded draft analyst on the realgm boards. He's worked with NBA franchises.
I'm not trying to come across as some draft savant, just expressing my own opinion, take it for what you will. I think he's somewhere in that crop of Okongwu, Wiseman, Toppin and himself as the top 4 bigs in this draft. Hopefully that explains why I think Wiseman is *arguably* the 4th best big in the draft.Showtime23 wrote:no wisemans height, wingspan, athleticism is at worst a top 3 pick in this draft.
its not like his jumper is broken to the point he will be limited to Whiteside/Capella.
Center position you need as much athleticism as possible to overpower your opponent like a Shaq/Howard enforcer.
Just look at our own Gafford. Him having elite athleticism is what makes him distinguishes from someone like Carter who is so slow and overweight he is getting useless. But Gafford alone is not enough and Wiseman is several times better version of him with range that can extend to the 3. Theres not a single wing/guard prospect thats simply better than Wiseman when they are unproven as well.
Obviously, a lot will depend on which team he will get drafted to. He will be a stud if he gets taught by Dray but I still want Chicago to nab him if Edwards and Ball are gone.
I think your comparison is a good example of where our player evaluation differs, because I find WCJ to be a far superior player to Gafford.
There's far more to the C position than being tall, athletic and long. Gafford is close to elite in all those respects, and he is a backup C. If you just want a guy to rim run and protect the paint, those guys are actually relatively dime a dozen. Obviously Wiseman has some projection as a shooter, which is good, but it's not an outlier skill of his.
It's also about how you use those physical tools - these are some less than ideal examples -
?s=20
?s=20
I'm not trying to say Wiseman won't be a good NBA player, but I do think he's overrated.
PlayerUp wrote:weneeda2guard wrote:I'm sold on obi toppin
Initially his age seems like a turnoff but it shouldn't be. He's a sophomore and a late bloomer that is just now rounding out his skillsets figuring it out. It's one thing if you're a senior at his age just graduating but he started late.
Obi Toppin is quite possibly our best bet to be a #1 option among the lottery picks. High motor, strong, athletic. May have the "it" factor. We should not discount him because of his age and other flaws in his game.
cjbulls wrote:
I mean, if this is the worst you have on an 18 yo center playing their first collegiate games, I'm not sure if you proved your point. Surely we aren't going to nitpick a couple of hand selected bad decisions? And yes, I am one who hates when people post mix tapes as well.
I'm not a big Wiseman fan, but I see the appeal of picking him. He arguably has the highest upside of any player in the draft, despite being a center.I always thought the general rule of thumb for bad drafts is to just take the highest upside player because you're likely to miss no matter who you pick.
cjbulls wrote:GimmeDat wrote:_txchilibowl_ wrote:
If GimmeDat is saying it I'm listening closely. He's been one of the best draft evaluators we've had on this board for a while....
Appreciate that.
I'm not personally claiming to have seen heaps of him before the college level - I've seen a few games, nothing more.. but it is stuff that is line with the small sample we did see at college, and in line with a lot better evaluators that I follow on different platforms that feel the same way about him.
Declaring him 'arguably the 4th best big in the draft' isn't as crazy as it sounds. Here as some examples of evaluators that I regard highly, and their boards. Take note of both Poku and Wiseman -Spoiler:
You don't have to hold those opinions with any weight if you don't know those individuals, but at least know I'm not alone in my opinion. It's also worth noting that there are others they don't have Poku in the lottery at all either - he is definitely more divisive.. but then again, a number of the above don't have Wiseman top 10, either. The last tweet there is from Spencer, who is from the Knicks board and arguably the most well regarded draft analyst on the realgm boards. He's worked with NBA franchises.
I'm not trying to come across as some draft savant, just expressing my own opinion, take it for what you will. I think he's somewhere in that crop of Okongwu, Wiseman, Toppin and himself as the top 4 bigs in this draft. Hopefully that explains why I think Wiseman is *arguably* the 4th best big in the draft.Showtime23 wrote:no wisemans height, wingspan, athleticism is at worst a top 3 pick in this draft.
its not like his jumper is broken to the point he will be limited to Whiteside/Capella.
Center position you need as much athleticism as possible to overpower your opponent like a Shaq/Howard enforcer.
Just look at our own Gafford. Him having elite athleticism is what makes him distinguishes from someone like Carter who is so slow and overweight he is getting useless. But Gafford alone is not enough and Wiseman is several times better version of him with range that can extend to the 3. Theres not a single wing/guard prospect thats simply better than Wiseman when they are unproven as well.
Obviously, a lot will depend on which team he will get drafted to. He will be a stud if he gets taught by Dray but I still want Chicago to nab him if Edwards and Ball are gone.
I think your comparison is a good example of where our player evaluation differs, because I find WCJ to be a far superior player to Gafford.
There's far more to the C position than being tall, athletic and long. Gafford is close to elite in all those respects, and he is a backup C. If you just want a guy to rim run and protect the paint, those guys are actually relatively dime a dozen. Obviously Wiseman has some projection as a shooter, which is good, but it's not an outlier skill of his.
It's also about how you use those physical tools - these are some less than ideal examples -
?s=20
?s=20
I'm not trying to say Wiseman won't be a good NBA player, but I do think he's overrated.
I mean, if this is the worst you have on an 18 yo center playing their first collegiate games, I'm not sure if you proved your point. Surely we aren't going to nitpick a couple of hand selected bad decisions? And yes, I am one who hates when people post mix tapes as well.
I'm not a big Wiseman fan, but I see the appeal of picking him. He arguably has the highest upside of any player in the draft, despite being a center.I always thought the general rule of thumb for bad drafts is to just take the highest upside player because you're likely to miss no matter who you pick.
PaKii94 wrote:cjbulls wrote:GimmeDat wrote:
Appreciate that.
I'm not personally claiming to have seen heaps of him before the college level - I've seen a few games, nothing more.. but it is stuff that is line with the small sample we did see at college, and in line with a lot better evaluators that I follow on different platforms that feel the same way about him.
Declaring him 'arguably the 4th best big in the draft' isn't as crazy as it sounds. Here as some examples of evaluators that I regard highly, and their boards. Take note of both Poku and Wiseman -Spoiler:
You don't have to hold those opinions with any weight if you don't know those individuals, but at least know I'm not alone in my opinion. It's also worth noting that there are others they don't have Poku in the lottery at all either - he is definitely more divisive.. but then again, a number of the above don't have Wiseman top 10, either. The last tweet there is from Spencer, who is from the Knicks board and arguably the most well regarded draft analyst on the realgm boards. He's worked with NBA franchises.
I'm not trying to come across as some draft savant, just expressing my own opinion, take it for what you will. I think he's somewhere in that crop of Okongwu, Wiseman, Toppin and himself as the top 4 bigs in this draft. Hopefully that explains why I think Wiseman is *arguably* the 4th best big in the draft.
I think your comparison is a good example of where our player evaluation differs, because I find WCJ to be a far superior player to Gafford.
There's far more to the C position than being tall, athletic and long. Gafford is close to elite in all those respects, and he is a backup C. If you just want a guy to rim run and protect the paint, those guys are actually relatively dime a dozen. Obviously Wiseman has some projection as a shooter, which is good, but it's not an outlier skill of his.
It's also about how you use those physical tools - these are some less than ideal examples -
?s=20
?s=20
I'm not trying to say Wiseman won't be a good NBA player, but I do think he's overrated.
I mean, if this is the worst you have on an 18 yo center playing their first collegiate games, I'm not sure if you proved your point. Surely we aren't going to nitpick a couple of hand selected bad decisions? And yes, I am one who hates when people post mix tapes as well.
I'm not a big Wiseman fan, but I see the appeal of picking him. He arguably has the highest upside of any player in the draft, despite being a center.I always thought the general rule of thumb for bad drafts is to just take the highest upside player because you're likely to miss no matter who you pick.
Small sample size is what we have for either way. You can't discount the bad just to focus on the good. The truly winning players heavily balance to the "right" play a lot more often even in college
cjbulls wrote:PaKii94 wrote:cjbulls wrote:
I mean, if this is the worst you have on an 18 yo center playing their first collegiate games, I'm not sure if you proved your point. Surely we aren't going to nitpick a couple of hand selected bad decisions? And yes, I am one who hates when people post mix tapes as well.
I'm not a big Wiseman fan, but I see the appeal of picking him. He arguably has the highest upside of any player in the draft, despite being a center.I always thought the general rule of thumb for bad drafts is to just take the highest upside player because you're likely to miss no matter who you pick.
Small sample size is what we have for either way. You can't discount the bad just to focus on the good. The truly winning players heavily balance to the "right" play a lot more often even in college
I'm not saying to ignore it. I'm saying a couple of clips with a bad finish amount to nothing. I might as well throw in a clip of him making a 3 and call him Steph Curry. The reality is in VERY limited time he had a 76% TS%. So choosing a clip of him missing a shot from one of those games isn't a realistic representation of the situation.