Player Rnkings Celtics vs Raptors series

[Dutchball97]

In the first round Siakam managed to get 0.0 VORP. That's worse than 6 other Raps (FVV, Ibaka, Powell, Lowry, Davis and Thomas). He had a negative BPM of -0.9. Also only tied 5th for WS with 0.4, which is below FVV, Ibaka, Powell and Lowry. Funnily enough OG Anunoby has the exact same 0.0 VORP, -0.9 BPM and 0.4 WS.

I don't think Siakam being 3rd on the list makes sense and unlike others here it's not because I think it's too low.

[themoneyteam2]

Here, you want a plus/minus stat that really shows how valuable a player is?

"In his eight seasons with Toronto, the Raptors are plus-2209 with Lowry on the court and just plus-97 with him off it."

https://www.tsn.ca/the-25-greatest-raptors-in-franchise-history

Right but you made a counterpoint that the "The Raptors also do worse without Kyle on the floor" when the poster told you the Celtics are also worse without Tatum. No ****...

Shocking that both the Raptors and Celtics do worse without one of their best players

Yeah, but a lot of your guys argument seems to be based on +/- when Kyle's the one who is more impactful in that metric.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/WINS

Yeah Lowry is #6 in the league and Tatum is #8. Not a big difference lol.

Here are the advances stats for both players instead of just looking at +/- to judge who is better...

Lowry: 17.7 PER, 7.5 WS, 3.2 BPM, 2.8 VORP, 2.83 PIPM, 5.0 RPM, 3.20 BPM, 4.15 RAPTOR

Tatum: 20.4 PER, 6.9 WS, 4.0 BPM, 3.4 VORP, 4.38 PIPM, 3.60 RPM, 3.90 BPM, 5.24 RAPTOR

[Chandan]

Let's see how Van Vleet does guarding Jaylen Brown down on the block. That's a matchup the Celtics will immediately exploit if the Raptors start Lowry and Van Vleet together. My guess is that one of Toronto's young wings will start instead, with Van Vleet coming off the bench.

Player rankings don't matter. Matchups do.

FVV goes on Kemba as he usually guards the ball handler. Kyle is capable of guarding 1-3 easily and he can do decent again both Brown or smart. He usually switches a lot that's how he finds time to set double team traps and draw charges. We also have Norm and RHJ coming off the bench both can defend starters.

I think raptors will have to win with size and depth in this series, without hayward we really have a HUGE advantage in that area.

[everdiso]

He's no better than Kyle Lowry defensively, and he certainly can't orchestrate a defense like Kyle can. The Raptors also do worse without Kyle on the floor, not that that isn't true of all good players.

I'm a huge Lowry guy but Tatum > Lowry. Tatum is the best player in the series no doubt in my mind.

Why?

I'm fairly certain your answer is going to come down to 4-6 ppg and somewhat better efficiency, and a supposed reputation of being a better defender. If that's all, you're dead wrong.

In fact, I just checked and Kyle has the significantly better DPM. Kyle even has higher win shares and a noticeably higher win shares per/48. I don't see what Jayson Tatum provides that can outweigh what Kyle does from a team perspective.

Lowry is significantly more efficient than Tatum.

Lowry 59.0ts%
Tatum 56.7ts%


Lowry 19.4pts (59.0ts%), 5.0rb, 7.4ast/3.1to, 1.8bk/st (+ ~0.5charges taken per game)
Tatum 23.4pts (56.7ts%), 7.0rb, 3.0ast/2.3to, 2.3bk/st

so 4 more pts (on lower efficiency) and 2 more rebounds for Tatum.

and 4 and a half more assists for Lowry.

[Tor_Raps]

Let's see how Van Vleet does guarding Jaylen Brown down on the block. That's a matchup the Celtics will immediately exploit if the Raptors start Lowry and Van Vleet together. My guess is that one of Toronto's young wings will start instead, with Van Vleet coming off the bench.

Player rankings don't matter. Matchups do.

If the Celtics still had Hayward, whoever Vanvleet would've guarded would be the person they'd give the ball to a lot because that would be the mismatch, like JJ Redick on Jaylen in 2018 ECSF.

Now he's probably going to be on Smart, so not much of a mismatch. Celtics are going to miss Hayward offensively pretty badly in this series.

That was exactly my take on the injury. The hayward injury is massive in terms of matchups. It means much more than what hayward provides from a statistical standpoint. Now the celtics lose their one main advantage while exposing their lack of depth.

Its why I went from calling this series a complete toss up to expecting the raptors to win in 6 games. If we lose, it will be a major disappointment.

[Chandan]

Let's see how Van Vleet does guarding Jaylen Brown down on the block. That's a matchup the Celtics will immediately exploit if the Raptors start Lowry and Van Vleet together. My guess is that one of Toronto's young wings will start instead, with Van Vleet coming off the bench.

Player rankings don't matter. Matchups do.

If the Celtics still had Hayward, whoever Vanvleet would've guarded would be the person they'd give the ball to a lot because that would be the mismatch, like JJ Redick on Jaylen in 2018 ECSF.

Now he's probably going to be on Smart, so not much of a mismatch. Celtics are going to miss Hayward offensively pretty badly in this series.

That was exactly my take on the injury. The hayward injury is massive in terms of matchups. It means much more than what hayward provides from a statistical standpoint. Now the celtics lose their one main advantage while exposing their lack of depth.

Its why I went from calling this series a complete toss up to expecting the raptors to win in 6 games. If we lose, it will be a major disappointment.

Yeah after Kanter, who is their 7th man, I really don't see anyone who can make an impact on the Boston team. while we have waves and waves of weapons we can throw at them like Norm, Thomas, Davis, Bouche who can contribute to some effective form of offense. ibaka and Gasol will be able to stay fresh unlike how embiid was ran to the ground.

[GoCeltics123]

One thing about the Tatum-Lowry thing: Raptors fans need to remember this guy sounds like he won't be close to 100% in this series, at least at the beginning. Considering Tatum kinda shut him down the last game (to be fair Lowry missed some open shots and I'd put Smart on him personally to pressure him full-court to make him feel the ankle), it's going to be pretty tough for him to match Tatum in this series, unless OG and Siakam really shut him down.

Read on Twitter

[themoneyteam2]

I'm a huge Lowry guy but Tatum > Lowry. Tatum is the best player in the series no doubt in my mind.

Why?

I'm fairly certain your answer is going to come down to 4-6 ppg and somewhat better efficiency, and a supposed reputation of being a better defender. If that's all, you're dead wrong.

In fact, I just checked and Kyle has the significantly better DPM. Kyle even has higher win shares and a noticeably higher win shares per/48. I don't see what Jayson Tatum provides that can outweigh what Kyle does from a team perspective.

Lowry is significantly more efficient than Tatum.

Lowry 59.0ts%
Tatum 56.7ts%


Lowry 19.4pts (59.0ts%), 5.0rb, 7.4ast/3.1to, 1.8bk/st (+ ~0.5charges taken per game)
Tatum 23.4pts (56.7ts%), 7.0rb, 3.0ast/2.3to, 2.3bk/st

so 4 more pts (on lower efficiency) and 2 more rebounds for Tatum.

and 4 and a half more assists for Lowry.

I get that Lowry has the higher TS% but just in my opinion I prefer taking the guy who shoots 45% FG and 40% 3PT over the one who shoots 41% FG and 35% 3PT.

[Bastet]

Based on media narrative:

1. Tatum
2. Siakam
3. Walker
4. Brown
5. Hayward (inj)
6. Lowry
7. Van Vleet
8. Smart
9. Ibaka
10. Powell

We will see after this series if Boston truly has all those ALL-STAR caliber players.

[Dutchball97]

Based on media narrative:

1. Tatum
2. Siakam
3. Walker
4. Brown
5. Hayward (inj)
6. Lowry
7. Van Vleet
8. Smart
9. Ibaka
10. Powell

We will see after this series if Boston truly has all those ALL-STAR caliber players.

Why would Lowry be below Brown and Hayward in media narrative when he made the All-Star team and they didn't? Don't take on a fake victim role.

[ropjhk]

Anyone putting Jayson Tatum above Kyle Lowry doesn't have a clue about all the little things you need to do to win at the highest level, and is blinded by recency bias. Even without the intangibles 23.4/7/3/1.4 is not better than 19.4/5/7.5/1.4.

I'm considering Lowry's injury.

[CeltsfanSinceBirth]

One thing about the Tatum-Lowry thing: Raptors fans need to remember this guy sounds like he won't be close to 100% in this series, at least at the beginning. Considering Tatum kinda shut him down the last game (to be fair Lowry missed some open shots and I'd put Smart on him personally to pressure him full-court to make him feel the ankle), it's going to be pretty tough for him to match Tatum in this series, unless OG and Siakam really shut him down.

Read on Twitter

Lowry is just faking an injury. It's all part of the plan. He's going to come out fully healthy and start running Nick Nurse's secret set of plays - you know, the ones they haven't used all year and are saving specifically for the 2nd round.

[Clay Davis]

OG is gonna average 18/7 boys

Sent from my SM-A520W using RealGM mobile app

[Curmudgeon]

I'll take Smart down on the block against Lowry too.

It's obvious from this thread its that if the Celtics win it will have nothing to do with the Celtics. It will be that the Raptors didn't play up to expectations, or were victimized by the officials, or there were unlucky bounces, or lucky bounces that favored the Celtics (you know, like the one that enabled the Raptors to get past the Sixers last year). So get your excuses ready.

Looking forward to this series quite a bit.

[Kordic27]

He's no better than Kyle Lowry defensively, and he certainly can't orchestrate a defense like Kyle can. The Raptors also do worse without Kyle on the floor, not that that isn't true of all good players.

I'm a huge Lowry guy but Tatum > Lowry. Tatum is the best player in the series no doubt in my mind.

Why?

I'm fairly certain your answer is going to come down to 4-6 ppg and somewhat better efficiency, and a supposed reputation of being a better defender. If that's all, you're dead wrong.

In fact, I just checked and Kyle has the significantly better DPM. Kyle even has higher win shares and a noticeably higher win shares per/48. I don't see what Jayson Tatum provides that can outweigh what Kyle does from a team perspective.

The answer is: The Ringer Podcast Network.

[Bastet]

Based on media narrative:

1. Tatum
2. Siakam
3. Walker
4. Brown
5. Hayward (inj)
6. Lowry
7. Van Vleet
8. Smart
9. Ibaka
10. Powell

We will see after this series if Boston truly has all those ALL-STAR caliber players.

Why would Lowry be below Brown and Hayward in media narrative when he made the All-Star team and they didn't? Don't take on a fake victim role.

Brown more versatile defender and Hayward a better shooter.

[Catchall]

At this stage of his career, Tatum's impact is limited by his ability to create on the ball. The fact that Lowry has the ball in his hands and can control the entire Raptor offense gives him the potential to be the most impactful player in the series. Whether he lives up to that potential remains to be seen. However, Tatum doesn't run the Celtic's offense the same way Kawhi does for the Clippers. Tatum is still primarily an off-ball and isolation scorer.

[VanWest82]

One thing about the Tatum-Lowry thing: Raptors fans need to remember this guy sounds like he won't be close to 100% in this series, at least at the beginning. Considering Tatum kinda shut him down the last game (to be fair Lowry missed some open shots and I'd put Smart on him personally to pressure him full-court to make him feel the ankle), it's going to be pretty tough for him to match Tatum in this series, unless OG and Siakam really shut him down.

Read on Twitter

I fully expect Nurse to scheme Tatum out of some of these games. They were the best in the league at doing that to stars all year. With Hayward out they'd be even more likely to do it now because there are less Celtics who can beat you 4 on 3.

[SmartWentCrazy]

At this stage of his career, Tatum's impact is limited by his ability to create on the ball. The fact that Lowry has the ball in his hands and can control the entire Raptor offense gives him the potential to be the most impactful player in the series. Whether he lives up to that potential remains to be seen. However, Tatum doesn't run the Celtic's offense the same way Kawhi does for the Clippers. Tatum is still primarily an off-ball and isolation scorer.

It is quite clear you havent watched Tatum play. It’s more than okay, but you shouldn't pretend elsewise.

[Lou Fan]

Someone please explain the FVV is better than Jaylen Brown take