Official Speculation Thread '19-'20 V: Purgatory

[pepe1991]

If the Timberwolves called up offering #1 for JI, would you do it?

Of course you do it.

4th year player who was unable to play for over 2 years ( cumulative ), pending FA, who,btw, needed to develop his offense, but now simply won't, because his best years (23-24 ) will be spent in recovery room.

1# pick, regardless who Magic pick, is:
1) healthy
2) cheaper
3) has more upside due age- time to progress

It's not about Jonathan isaac- per se. It's about always injuried player who only excells playing one side of the ball, and who can't be trusted as cornerstone of a team because of multiple leg injuries, that all occur on same leg.

Guy has bad ankle, torn MCL and ACL on same leg. At age of 22. How do you guys think that will age over time ?

[jonbob17]

Who is anybody going to take at the top of this draft that has the upside of a healthy JI?

If JI could get to about 18 ppg on 2+ made 3s on good efficiency, while maintaining his defensive intensity, we are talking about a top 15 player in this league.

The likelihood of that happening is far greater than Edwards fixing every aspect of his game, or Ball fixing his shot and learning how to play defense.

When you are talking about a top 15 player contracts don't matter, as the excess value is far higher than the max, and especially whatever discounted extension JI would sign.

We would have to be crazy to give JI away for one of these dogs with fleas, knowing full well that JI may not return to what he was.

[drsd]

Okeke was not born just before the draft. We have a lot film on him. There is a reason he was selected 15, and there was a reason many analists said we had a steal on our hands.
Load Okeke film on youtube. Load Avdija, Okoro, Haliburton, Vassell, Nesmith and tell me who you like more.

Respectfully: you miss my point. We Magic fans have no idea if Okeke will ever be physically capable of playing a single NBA minute.


..

[drsd]

This is literally the worst decision we could make
The LAST thing this team needs is another 3D player with no ability to create their own shot. That's all this team has. Not one guy on the roster besides maybe fultz can create any offense for themselves or anyone else

Respectfully: I think the the Magic must gain more long-range shooters, and particularly, players that can hit a 35+% three ball game in and game out.

And not only is Vassell likely to be that, he can probably be projected to play at least average-level NBA defense at the SG slot.


So: that is my point. Orlando needs a long-bomber that can play defense. And regardless of how such a drafteee might be, there can be little doubt that Orlando needs more shooting and will focus on defense.

I do not see player-X at 15 and player-X might be more relevant in the top 10.


..

[pepe1991]

Who is anybody going to take at the top of this draft that has the upside of a healthy JI?

If JI could get to about 18 ppg on 2+ made 3s on good efficiency, while maintaining his defensive intensity, we are talking about a top 15 player in this league.

The likelihood of that happening is far greater than Edwards fixing every aspect of his game, or Ball fixing his shot and learning how to play defense.

When you are talking about a top 15 player contracts don't matter, as the excess value is far higher than the max, and especially whatever discounted extension JI would sign.

We would have to be crazy to give JI away for one of these dogs with fleas, knowing full well that JI may not return to what he was.

He never averaged 18 ppg. Not even at college. He scored 20 or more points -five times in 141 games he played.
He also commited more turnovers than assists so far.
His shots were still negative contribution to offense.
His efficiency numbers improved by -shooting less 3s.

People already planning this paralel universe excuse where he was some new Durant and injuries destroyed him. That's simply not a case.He was pretty mediocre offensive player with amazing defensive instics and impact on defense. But without any impact on offense. At least not positive one.. In league where best defender isn't even best player on own team, team that has ceiling of second round exit, if they get there ( Utah).

Even the worst nba draft ever, 2000, had allstar ( Kenyon Martin). second worst draft ever, 1990 one, had Garry Payton, 2006 draft- Brandon Roy, Lamarcus Aldrige, Rondo, 2005 - Williams, Chris Paul, Bynum

There is no way in hell that this draft does not have at least 1 allstar within top 10 selection. Difference is that march madness didn't happen so no new Mikal Bridges are hyped to be Jimmy Butlers and Kawhi Leonard's of the world. Everything else is same.

Obi Toppin was killing in college hoops , sky high efficiency, everybody knows Lamelo is the most talented Ball , and if he can be more athletic, more polished version of his brother, that's borderline allstar on East easly...

Where in bubble, Isaac might appear to be more talented and impactful than this kids, injury thing simply won't go away.

[drsd]

Okeke would easily be a top 10 pick this year - closer to 5 than 10

I do not agree.
His health is still unclear and that would preclude his selection in the top-10.

[drsd]

Even the worst nba draft ever, 2000, had allstar ( Kenyon Martin). second worst draft ever, 1990 one, had Garry Payton, 2006 draft- Brandon Roy, Lamarcus Aldrige, Rondo, 2005 - Williams, Chris Paul, Bynum.

For drafts of,
The 2013: LINK
and
The 2014: LINK

are not looking great either.




** the 2014 draft look particularly awful for the NBA.


..

[tiderulz]

Who is anybody going to take at the top of this draft that has the upside of a healthy JI?

If JI could get to about 18 ppg on 2+ made 3s on good efficiency, while maintaining his defensive intensity, we are talking about a top 15 player in this league.

The likelihood of that happening is far greater than Edwards fixing every aspect of his game, or Ball fixing his shot and learning how to play defense.

When you are talking about a top 15 player contracts don't matter, as the excess value is far higher than the max, and especially whatever discounted extension JI would sign.

We would have to be crazy to give JI away for one of these dogs with fleas, knowing full well that JI may not return to what he was.

He never averaged 18 ppg. Not even at college. He scored 20 or more points -five times in 141 games he played.
He also commited more turnovers than assists so far.
His shots were still negative contribution to offense.
His efficiency numbers improved by -shooting less 3s.

People already planning this paralel universe excuse where he was some new Durant and injuries destroyed him. That's simply not a case.He was pretty mediocre offensive player with amazing defensive instics and impact on defense. But without any impact on offense. At least not positive one.. In league where best defender isn't even best player on own team, team that has ceiling of second round exit, if they get there ( Utah).

Even the worst nba draft ever, 2000, had allstar ( Kenyon Martin). second worst draft ever, 1990 one, had Garry Payton, 2006 draft- Brandon Roy, Lamarcus Aldrige, Rondo, 2005 - Williams, Chris Paul, Bynum

There is no way in hell that this draft does not have at least 1 allstar within top 10 selection. Difference is that march madness didn't happen so no new Mikal Bridges are hyped to be Jimmy Butlers and Kawhi Leonard's of the world. Everything else is same.

Obi Toppin was killing in college hoops , sky high efficiency, everybody knows Lamelo is the most talented Ball , and if he can be more athletic, more polished version of his brother, that's borderline allstar on East easly...

Where in bubble, Isaac might appear to be more talented and impactful than this kids, injury thing simply won't go away.

to be fair, Butler and Kawhi didnt explode until year 4. Mikal is only in year 2.

[tiderulz]

Even the worst nba draft ever, 2000, had allstar ( Kenyon Martin). second worst draft ever, 1990 one, had Garry Payton, 2006 draft- Brandon Roy, Lamarcus Aldrige, Rondo, 2005 - Williams, Chris Paul, Bynum.

For drafts of,
The 2013: LINK
and
The 2014: LINK

are not looking great either.




** the 2014 draft look particularly awful for the NBA.


..

yeah, that '14 draft for basically the entire first round looks pretty awful.
'13 isnt too bad, even if not all stars, some solid players - Giannis, Oladipo, CJ McCollum, Steven Adams, Schroder, Gobert, Hardaway, but even lowering the bar, thats only 7 players out of the first 27 picks.

[MagicFan101]

Okeke was not born just before the draft. We have a lot film on him. There is a reason he was selected 15, and there was a reason many analists said we had a steal on our hands.
Load Okeke film on youtube. Load Avdija, Okoro, Haliburton, Vassell, Nesmith and tell me who you like more.

Respectfully: you miss my point. We Magic fans have no idea if Okeke will ever be physically capable of playing a single NBA minute.


..

Anthony Edwards or James Wiseman or any other prospect in this class could be hit by a bus tomorrow.

Your point is carries no weight.

[MartinsIzAfraud]

Okeke was not born just before the draft. We have a lot film on him. There is a reason he was selected 15, and there was a reason many analists said we had a steal on our hands.
Load Okeke film on youtube. Load Avdija, Okoro, Haliburton, Vassell, Nesmith and tell me who you like more.

Respectfully: you miss my point. We Magic fans have no idea if Okeke will ever be physically capable of playing a single NBA minute.


..

Anthony Edwards or James Wiseman or any other prospect in this class could be hit by a bus tomorrow.

Your point is carries no weight.

Hahah really that’s the rebuttal Jesus Christ dude.

[zaymon]

Who is anybody going to take at the top of this draft that has the upside of a healthy JI?

If JI could get to about 18 ppg on 2+ made 3s on good efficiency, while maintaining his defensive intensity, we are talking about a top 15 player in this league.

The likelihood of that happening is far greater than Edwards fixing every aspect of his game, or Ball fixing his shot and learning how to play defense.

When you are talking about a top 15 player contracts don't matter, as the excess value is far higher than the max, and especially whatever discounted extension JI would sign.

We would have to be crazy to give JI away for one of these dogs with fleas, knowing full well that JI may not return to what he was.

He never averaged 18 ppg. Not even at college. He scored 20 or more points -five times in 141 games he played.
He also commited more turnovers than assists so far.
His shots were still negative contribution to offense.
His efficiency numbers improved by -shooting less 3s.

People already planning this paralel universe excuse where he was some new Durant and injuries destroyed him. That's simply not a case.He was pretty mediocre offensive player with amazing defensive instics and impact on defense. But without any impact on offense. At least not positive one.. In league where best defender isn't even best player on own team, team that has ceiling of second round exit, if they get there ( Utah).

Even the worst nba draft ever, 2000, had allstar ( Kenyon Martin). second worst draft ever, 1990 one, had Garry Payton, 2006 draft- Brandon Roy, Lamarcus Aldrige, Rondo, 2005 - Williams, Chris Paul, Bynum

There is no way in hell that this draft does not have at least 1 allstar within top 10 selection. Difference is that march madness didn't happen so no new Mikal Bridges are hyped to be Jimmy Butlers and Kawhi Leonard's of the world. Everything else is same.

Obi Toppin was killing in college hoops , sky high efficiency, everybody knows Lamelo is the most talented Ball , and if he can be more athletic, more polished version of his brother, that's borderline allstar on East easly...

Where in bubble, Isaac might appear to be more talented and impactful than this kids, injury thing simply won't go away.

Personally i prefer risking with Isaac being healthy than Edwards, Ball or Wiseman become even solid starters. We knew Isaac is a project, we knew he is not physically ready. What is the point of developing him for 3 long years and then trade when he is entering his physical prime ? Yes he had awful injuries until now but i think the risk of injury gets smaller with his physical maturity. Look at Porzingis, he is playing just fine after torn ACL, Dallas even signed him to a max, when i think we will sign JI well below the max.
Yes Isaac is not offensive engine, but he is promising shooter which could be enough in todays nba. How many times above average offensive players were reduced to spot up shooters? There are 2 other players who can protect the paint as a help defender like Isaac, Giannis and Davis, thats it. Edwards looking like prime Dion Waiters, young Ball is suspiciously looking worse than old Ball and Wiseman is Whiteside in disguise.

[jonbob17]

Edwards could turn out to be Oladipo or even Mitchell, and that isn't as good as Isaac scoring 18 a game and being a DPOY candidate.

Who is closer to that outcome? JI's offense improving a bit at 23, or basically everything about Edwards changing. He doesn't have to be Kawhi, he can knock down some 3s and score on cuts to the rim, and coupled with his defense puts him in the ultra elite category.

There will be all star(s) in this draft, but there not necessarily going to be the top picks, and a two time all star isn't close to a perennial DPOY candidate that can score as well.

[Knightro]

Respectfully: I think the the Magic must gain more long-range shooters, and particularly, players that can hit a 35+% three ball game in and game out.

And not only is Vassell likely to be that, he can probably be projected to play at least average-level NBA defense at the SG slot.


So: that is my point. Orlando needs a long-bomber that can play defense. And regardless of how such a drafteee might be, there can be little doubt that Orlando needs more shooting and will focus on defense.

I do not see player-X at 15 and player-X might be more relevant in the top 10.

But it's not an either/or scenario.

The Magic need shot creators and shot makers. They lack both.

[Def Swami]

If the Timberwolves called up offering #1 for JI, would you do it?

Not in this draft. It's not good enough. Isaac has more upside in this draft than anyone in this draft. And has shown enough as a multi-positional elite defender who's offensive game is coming along. He flashed DPOY potential. You can build a contender with a player like that, unlike anyone else on this roster. We've seen incremental improvement every year. I'm convinced he was heading to a break out season next year if he stayed healthy.

The only reason this is a question is because of his injury history. I'm not concerned by his health. He'll be back. He'll have a long, fruitful career. I actually think this 1 year of rehab will be good for him. A lot of players come back stronger after ACL tears because the rehab makes them stronger. I have no doubt that will be the case for him. It sucks, but the Magic should absolutely be patient and wait it out with Isaac. I'm more convinced about Isaac than I am about anyone on this roster. I'd even offer him an extension this off-season to see if we can get a discount and lock him up.

[MagicFan101]

Respectfully: you miss my point. We Magic fans have no idea if Okeke will ever be physically capable of playing a single NBA minute.


..

Anthony Edwards or James Wiseman or any other prospect in this class could be hit by a bus tomorrow.

Your point is carries no weight.

Hahah really that’s the rebuttal Jesus Christ dude.

It’s the truth.

Chuma in a young athlete with world class doctors who had an ACL tear which has over an overall 90% full recovery rate. This isn’t some mystery injury. Yet for someone this guy is spouting off nonsense about us having no insights into the future of his health.

If that is how we want to look at it then you have to put on the tin foil hat and dive all the way in.

[The Effect]

Who is anybody going to take at the top of this draft that has the upside of a healthy JI?

If JI could get to about 18 ppg on 2+ made 3s on good efficiency, while maintaining his defensive intensity, we are talking about a top 15 player in this league.

The likelihood of that happening is far greater than Edwards fixing every aspect of his game, or Ball fixing his shot and learning how to play defense.

When you are talking about a top 15 player contracts don't matter, as the excess value is far higher than the max, and especially whatever discounted extension JI would sign.

We would have to be crazy to give JI away for one of these dogs with fleas, knowing full well that JI may not return to what he was.

Couple things
A healthy JI would be better than most of the players in the draft..... But there's no such thing. He was hurt in HS, and hurt every year in the pros. His body can't seem to handle the game.
It's like saying Brandon Roy is better than anyone in the 2011 draft... Blazers would be stupid to trade his upside!
Isaac is turning into the same thing. Missed 60% of all games in the first 4 years of his career with different injuries, with a serious knee injury and a foot injury. Even he returns, not only will he rusty and a year list from his development, but you also have zero guarantee that his knee\leg will be the same or that he will be the same physically. He could just add easily come back a sleep if the guy we saw it the bubble for those 2 games

Also, JI had shown next to nothing when it comes self creating offense. All his points come from catch and shoot 3s, well timed cuts, and fast breaks. While those are great assets, he's not going to be s guy that puts the offense in his back and wind you the game. He's just an average offensive player and hasn't shown he's anything more than that. Also, 18ppg isn't a to 15 player in the game. Rudy gobert had been the best rim protector in the game for a few yesterday now and averaged 15ppg and no one talks about him as a top 15 player, why? because he's not much of a factor in offense. He's getting his points, but it's mostly done on put backs and ready dunks from good passes by his guards. And that's if Isaac can ever even get to 18. Hes only gone over 20pts 5 times in 3 years... Kinda hard to average 18 when you can rarely ever get 20


I know people here love Isaac like he's the second coming of Hakeem olajuwan or something, but at some point people need to realize he's more likely to Brandon Roy

[The Effect]

This is literally the worst decision we could make
The LAST thing this team needs is another 3D player with no ability to create their own shot. That's all this team has. Not one guy on the roster besides maybe fultz can create any offense for themselves or anyone else

Respectfully: I think the the Magic must gain more long-range shooters, and particularly, players that can hit a 35+% three ball game in and game out.

And not only is Vassell likely to be that, he can probably be projected to play at least average-level NBA defense at the SG slot.


So: that is my point. Orlando needs a long-bomber that can play defense. And regardless of how such a drafteee might be, there can be little doubt that Orlando needs more shooting and will focus on defense.

I do not see player-X at 15 and player-X might be more relevant in the top 10.


..

Long range shooting is nice, but we need scorers, and there's a big difference between the two. I'm not taking up too get Kyle korver or Joe Harris, I'm taking my shot on trying to find a Donovan Mitchell type scorer, especially if I'm trading up

[MartinsIzAfraud]

Anthony Edwards or James Wiseman or any other prospect in this class could be hit by a bus tomorrow.

Your point is carries no weight.

Hahah really that’s the rebuttal Jesus Christ dude.

It’s the truth.

Chuma in a young athlete with world class doctors who had an ACL tear which has over an overall 90% full recovery rate. This isn’t some mystery injury. Yet for someone this guy is spouting off nonsense about us having no insights into the future of his health.

If that is how we want to look at it then you have to put on the tin foil hat and dive all the way in.

i'll agree that the statement that he might not provide an nba minute is too much I didn't see that hit at the end.
I'd probably say expectations need to be tempered extremely and I wouldn't be shocked if FO is also super careful with him.
10-15 minutes a night would be massive and I honestly can see those minutes available.

[jonbob17]

I wouldn't say Gobert is a top 15-20 player, but I am sure some GMs would make that argument. The difference between Isaac and Gobert is the position, and the versatility. Centers are not valuable in today's game, which is what impacts Gobert's value
Isaac is menace on the ball, and in team defense. Guard almost anybody. You can't put Gobert on a Doncic.

Now i have no idea how he comes back. Quickness is part of his skill. This could be the last of his injuries, or he could go the way of Jabari Parker. I also have no idea how Okeke comes back. Or Durant for that matter.

But I do know we shouldn't sell low on the highest ceiling player we have had in a while. And 1st in this crappy draft is selling low.