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George Floyd (and aftermath): Part 2

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Re: George Floyd (and aftermath): Part 2 

Post#41 » by Spot31 » Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:53 am

HarthorneWingo wrote:
Are We Ther Yet wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
Stupid move? Maybe. Deserved to die? No.

This is just another example of dumbass cops resorting to deadly force because they're too lazy and/or stupid and/or don't give a fck to handle this situation correctly. They had three cops and once suspect and couldn't handle it. They all need to be fired and the shooter criminally charged.

You say "don't resist" like it's just a routine experience. Have you ever been confronted by moron cop? I have. Trust me, you don't know how you'll react until you are in that situation.


Without divulging too much of a dark past...yes I've had guns drawn on me and been in several situations with a-hole cops. Never once resisted...never once got shot. Took a few lumps but...that is about it.

You did see where I questioned the use of force in my post right? The police acted irrationally and it was a disgusting display of police work. That doesn't excuse the dude resisting and going for something in his car. What the hell did think the cops were gonna do at that point? Ridiculous move as a matter of fact.


That sucks. Sorry to hear that. In the State of New York, it is legal to resist what is called "an unauthorized arrest." Basically, a false arrest meaning one without probable cause. Different states have different laws on this but, clearly, some states allow you to defend yourself from an illegal arrest.

My main problem is that the police are not educated or trained enough to deal with people with mental problems and/or emotionally charged situations like domestic violence or neighbor disputes which in the beginning seem like BS nuisances but can end up in someone getting seriously injured or killed. Which is why we need a whole new and modern approach to "public safety."


But what about the "No Sock Law" in NYS?
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Re: George Floyd (and aftermath): Part 2 

Post#42 » by j4remi » Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:56 pm

mpharris36 wrote:


Worth taking a look into Remi. Do you know what type of calls they typical go on? non-violent calls can be a lot of different things. Just trying to get a sense on there typical calls and is eugrne. I did just read that eugene has a pretty high crime rate compared to the rest of the country. But would like to get a sense of the type of calls they get dispatched too.

Is a domestic dispute considered a non-violent event? A traffic stop? DUI checkpoints? Just trying to get a better sense of what they would respond to.

Like I would be all for not having the police showing up if someone has a car accident or someone falls down a set of stairs or something like that. But how many of those incidents turn lethal? It usually is a situation where there is some sort of resisting arrest (outside of the George Floyd case) where I think we can all agree that was the most egregious of situations in where a officer had complete disregard for a human being without a threat of his own life in danger.


The main examples are mental health episodes and homelessness. That article is long but it will give you a pretty good understanding of how it functions, how they work with police and how it's grown. The key focal point is mental health, because a significant number of people shot by police display signs of mental illness. This also reduces the chances of suicide by cop or wellness checks that turn violent due to confusion. Add in their work with the homeless and this is reducing police interactions in situations where they might cause an escalation to violence rather than vice versa. These are situations that police aren't particularly trained to handle like a crisis counselor might and where there's data backing the fact that needless violence is reduced.

CAHOOTS was created in part because of another disturbing statistic -- around 25% of people killed by police show signs of mental illness, according to a journal review of the Washington Post's extensive officer-involved shootings database.

The Eugene Police Department has been criticized in years past for shooting and killing people with mental illnesses. Most recently, in February, the city won a wrongful death lawsuit brought by the family of a man who was shot by police. His loved ones said he was a veteran with PTSD who'd threatened suicide. (Skinner was appointed chief in 2018, three years after the shooting.)

Most of CAHOOTS' clients are homeless, and just under a third of them have severe mental illnesses. It's a weight off the shoulders of police, Skinner said.

"I believe it's time for law enforcement to quit being a catch-base for everything our community and society needs," Skinner said. "We need to get law enforcement professionals back to doing the core mission of protecting communities and enforcing the law, and then match resources with other services like behavioral health -- all those things we tend to lump on the plate of law enforcement."

There's no such thing as a "typical" CAHOOTS shift these days, said Ben Brubaker, who worked as a CAHOOTS crisis worker before assuming the senior role of clinical co-coordinator at White Bird.

Staffers respond to substance addiction crises, psychotic episodes, homeless residents and threats of suicide. They make house calls to counsel depressed children at their parents' request, and they're contacted by public onlookers when someone isn't in a position to call CAHOOTS themselves.

Unlike police, CAHOOTS responders can't force anyone to accept their aid, and they can't arrest anyone. They're not armed, and their uniform usually consists of a White Bird T-shirt and jeans -- the goal is that the more "civilian-like" they look, the less threatened their clients will feel.


Traffic stops and DUI check points wouldn't be included I don't think. To repeat, I'd like to see proactive policing reduced. I think we overpolice and underinvestigate (to quote Matt Lech). I honestly think traffic stops are among the most obvious places we should look at reducing police (sooooo many times I've seen police stop people for dubious reasons and discretion means there's no consistency). DUI check points have shown some success in the data I looked at for reducing impaired driving, but I also read that they're expensive to employ with consistency.

I'd guess domestic disputes fall into the range of "CAHOOTS might show up and assess the situation" but could be wrong. I'll try to look more into that aspect when I get a chance.
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Re: George Floyd (and aftermath): Part 2 

Post#43 » by NYKAL » Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:26 pm

I think we all would be surprised at how Few police actually know the laws they are supposed to enforce. Many just play follow the leader
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Re: George Floyd (and aftermath): Part 2 

Post#44 » by rammagen » Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:56 pm

I think allot of this can be corrected with a refunding of police rather then de-funding. Let me explain. You should have officers that only handle certain types of cases and are only armed with nonlethal weapons. Such as rubber bullets and tasers. Have them trained for the situations they should head into. Situations like Floyd and this recent shooting should be mitigated in those cases. Also spend more money on diversionary measures for juvie offenders.

The town in NJ is a great example crime may be about the same but the people in the neighborhoods trust the local officers that is what we should be aiming for
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Re: George Floyd (and aftermath): Part 2 

Post#45 » by Pointgod » Tue Aug 25, 2020 4:31 pm

I can’t bring myself to give a damn about the opinions of all the “well he shouldn’t have gotten into his car” people. Let me say this in bold letters I DON’T CARE. There is no such thing as suicide by cop.

I refuse to give a single cent of credibility to the theory that every unarmed black person is secretly Jason Bourne. Use your **** brains he was going to his car to check in on his kids. So many **** on this site spread racist propaganda about black men not being good fathers then when someone is showing an example of being a good father and gets shot for it, there’s always the “well he shouldn’t have been shot, but he shouldn’t have done x either”. **** off with that bull ****
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Re: George Floyd (and aftermath): Part 2 

Post#46 » by nedleeds » Tue Aug 25, 2020 4:39 pm

Kampuchea wrote:Why seven shots? Can’t they shoot him in the ass a couple times? They escalate to trying to kill the guy way too quickly.

Dude reaching into the car ignoring them is putting himself in danger but you don’t need to unload your clip in his back.


If the information is true that he had a warrant out for rape (issued the 7th of July) and had the armed and dangerous note and the guy won't comply, and he won't lay down or keep his hands up what do you propose they do for their $35,000 a year? Wait for him to pull the gun they're told he probably has? Then what. Try to shoot really quick with the hundreds of hours of training they get a year because they have no funding for it? Shoot accurately in the ass cheek with the hundred of hours of tactical firearms drills they don't get to run through in their downtime?

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I've taken tactical pistol classes at a novice level, hitting a moving target in a fire or be fired upon situation is very much not like the movies. It's extremely hard. Now try to figure out if they have a weapon out and ready all at real speed.

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All this dude had to do to be alive and arrested was nothing. But he knew he had the warrant out and rolled the dice. But lets burn the whole **** town. These BLM/Antifa idiots are filming Trump's commercials for him.
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Re: George Floyd (and aftermath): Part 2 

Post#47 » by Nazrmohamed » Tue Aug 25, 2020 4:47 pm

Kampuchea wrote:Why seven shots? Can’t they shoot him in the ass a couple times? They escalate to trying to kill the guy way too quickly.

Dude reaching into the car ignoring them is putting himself in danger but you don’t need to unload your clip in his back.


You either shoot to kill or you don't shoot at all. There is no in between.
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Re: George Floyd (and aftermath): Part 2 

Post#48 » by Kampuchea » Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:44 pm

I don't agree there is no in-between. And I also don't think they had to unload seven in him, or that they couldn't aim at all from close range. They aren't hitting a bullseye from afar, they are hitting someone right in front of them.
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Re: George Floyd (and aftermath): Part 2 

Post#49 » by HarthorneWingo » Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:16 pm

Spot31 wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
Are We Ther Yet wrote:
Without divulging too much of a dark past...yes I've had guns drawn on me and been in several situations with a-hole cops. Never once resisted...never once got shot. Took a few lumps but...that is about it.

You did see where I questioned the use of force in my post right? The police acted irrationally and it was a disgusting display of police work. That doesn't excuse the dude resisting and going for something in his car. What the hell did think the cops were gonna do at that point? Ridiculous move as a matter of fact.


That sucks. Sorry to hear that. In the State of New York, it is legal to resist what is called "an unauthorized arrest." Basically, a false arrest meaning one without probable cause. Different states have different laws on this but, clearly, some states allow you to defend yourself from an illegal arrest.

My main problem is that the police are not educated or trained enough to deal with people with mental problems and/or emotionally charged situations like domestic violence or neighbor disputes which in the beginning seem like BS nuisances but can end up in someone getting seriously injured or killed. Which is why we need a whole new and modern approach to "public safety."


But what about the "No Sock Law" in NYS?


Hi. Great question. Glad you brought it up because now I understand what's going on here.

It's a little confusing, I must admit, because there are three different statutes at play. I think this article makes sense of them. Bottom line: Yes, you can resist a false or "unauthorized" arrest in NYS but you have to be able to demonstrate that you were the victim in the incident/arrest. Also, it doesn't being the victim of an unauthorized arrest only entitles you to resist and nothing more.

https://www.nyclu.org/en/taxonomy/term/108?page=16

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Due Process and Justice Racial Justice Police Accountability
Op-ed
By Christopher Dunn

As the country is bludgeoned by one video after another capturing police officers assaulting and even killing unarmed civilians – typically black men – we are in the midst of a national debate about proposals to curb police misconduct, ranging from body cameras to grand jury reform. As important and necessary as are reforms of police practices and criminal justice processes, it also is important to consider the options available to civilians who are on the scene and witnessing police action. Videotape available to anyone with an Internet connection routinely shows encounters in which police officers seize a person for a minor offense but nonetheless resort to excessive – and sometimes deadly – physical force that the person tries to defend against, with the Eric Garner video being the most dramatic example from New York. In many instances, the ensuing fracas leads to bystanders rushing in and surrounding the officers, creating a tense and dangerous situation for everyone. And, of course, civilians routinely pull out smartphones to videotape the struggle.

This all-too-common scenario raises important questions about the rights of civilians to resist police action to protect themselves, to physically intervene in police action to assist a person being assaulted by officers, and to videotape police action. Many may be surprised by the state of the law governing these different options. The Right to Resist or Rescue As exemplified by the Eric Garner incident, police union officials often argue that civilian injuries arising from police action result not from officer excesses but from civilians resisting efforts to arrest them. While it is unlawful to resist arrest, in New York that does not mean civilians are legally barred from defending themselves from officer assault nor does it mean that bystanders are barred from inserting themselves into arrest situations to defend a civilian who is being assaulted. On their face, New York statutes seem to give civilians few options. Section 205.30 of the Penal Law makes it a misdemeanor to resist a lawful arrest, with resisting occurring when a person “intentionally prevents or attempts to prevent a police officer or peace officer from effecting an authorized arrest of himself or another person.

Separately, section 35.27 broadly bars the use of physical force in resisting arrest: “A person may not use physical force to resist arrest, whether authorized or unauthorized, which is being effected or attempted by a police officer or peace officer . . . ."

With these provisions applying to persons being arrested and to bystanders who attempt to intervene in an arrest, they seem to legally bar those being arrested or witnessing an arrest from resisting or interfering with the arrest in general and from using physical force to do so in particular. Nonetheless, a third Penal Law provision raises the prospect of an opening for civilians. Specifically, section 35.15 provides in relevant part, “A person may . . . use physical force upon another person when and to the extent he or she reasonably believes such to be necessary to defend himself, herself or a third person from what he or she reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful physical force by such other person.”

Precious few reported cases discuss section 35.15’s authorization of force in the context of police arrests. Perhaps the most significant one dates back to 1972, when the New York Court of Appeals decided People v. Stevenson (in which the NYCLU appeared as amicus curiae). Like several of the recent notorious incidents of police killings, the Stevenson case arose out of a minor traffic matter and then escalated. As the Court of Appeals explained, While performing [an] errand, defendant was driving unlicensed and had no registration for the vehicle. At 125th Street and Park Avenue, he stopped to get frankfurters and a drink for his two passengers. When he returned with the food, he noticed Officer Davis leaning inside the car. The officer asked for his license and registration and “I asked him what was wrong and he said I was obstructing traffic and I said I wasn’t. So he said ‘Give me your license and registration.’ And I said, ‘Just a minute.’ And I put my hand inside the car to give the franks and drinks to the people inside and he pushed me ... I asked him why is he pushing me for. He asked me [again] for my registration, so what -- you know, what is he edging me on for? ... So I said ‘Why?’ I kept on asking him why. He said, ‘You are under arrest.’ I said, ‘No, for what?’ ... he just kept on saying, ‘No, you are under arrest,’ and was grabbing for me.” He then noticed two other police officers approaching the scene with one of the officers wielding his “stick”. Afraid that he was going to be beaten, he grabbed Officer Davis by the shoulders and swung him around so that he was between him and the oncoming officers. “Please don’t let them hit me,” he told Davis. “If there is something wrong, I'll go with you but don't let them hit me.” He stated he never punched or kicked any of the officers, but that he was kicked and hit. After several other officers had joined the fracas, he was taken to the precinct house.

Among other offenses, Stevenson was charged with and convicted of resisting arrest. In the Court of Appeals, he argued the trial court had improperly failed to instruct the jury of the availability of a justification defense under Penal Law section 35.15. Citing that section, the Court of Appeals agreed that “there can be no cavil with the proposition that a citizen may use reasonable force in self-defense where the force exerted by the police in effecting an arrest is excessive.” (Nonetheless, it affirmed the conviction on the grounds that Stevenson had resisted arrest before any threat posed by the officers presented itself, rendering “moot” any justification defense Stevenson might have had for his use of force later in the interaction.)

In stating that a citizen could invoke section 35.15 to justify the use of physical force to resist excessive force by a police officer, the Court of Appeals cited a single New York case, an Appellate Division decision from a year earlier. In People v. Sanza, the Second Department reversed a conviction because the trial court had failed to instruct the jury that the defendant was entitled to use physical force to defend himself from a police assault. Notwithstanding the seemingly broad sweep of Penal Law section 35.27’s bar on the use of force to resist arrest, the Second Department held, Where the evidence adduced at the trial permits the inference that the defendant was the victim . . . of the use of excessive physical force to effectuate an arrest, he is entitled to a charge that reasonable acts of self-defense are justifiable. In the case at bar this rule applies to both the charge of assault in the second degree and to the charge of resisting arrest, despite section 35.27 of the Penal Law. The purpose of that section is merely to prevent combat arising out of a dispute over the validity of an arrest and does not prevent an individual from protecting himself from an unjustified beating (emphasis added). Confirming the currency of Stevenson and Sanza, the Second Circuit recently cited them in rejecting a claim that Penal Law section 35.27 barred a civilian from trying to grab the nightsticks of police officers who were beating him without justification.6 And under these two cases, New York law allows those facing arrest to use physical force to defend themselves
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Re: George Floyd (and aftermath): Part 2 

Post#50 » by Rich Rane » Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:14 pm

Stannis wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
Stannis wrote:The news says Blake is in the hospital expected to survive.


Were those bb guns the cops were shooting? Anyhow, that's great news that he'll survive. It would be crazy if he was lucky enough to fully recover.

7 shots to the back... very doubtful. Hopefully he can at least speak.


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Re: George Floyd (and aftermath): Part 2 

Post#51 » by Rich Rane » Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:22 pm

Stolen from the Current Affairs Board, but I think it fits this discussion all the same.
clyde21 wrote:you wanna know why buildings are on fire? watch this.



two identical scenarios, one gets shot 7 times (Blake), the other gets shot a whopping 0 times.

until you can explain and course correct what's happening here, buildings will burn.
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Re: George Floyd (and aftermath): Part 2 

Post#52 » by Fat Kat » Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:10 am

Rich Rane wrote:Stolen from the Current Affairs Board, but I think it fits this discussion all the same.
clyde21 wrote:you wanna know why buildings are on fire? watch this.



two identical scenarios, one gets shot 7 times (Blake), the other gets shot a whopping 0 times.

until you can explain and course correct what's happening here, buildings will burn.


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Re: George Floyd (and aftermath): Part 2 

Post#53 » by Pointgod » Wed Aug 26, 2020 12:56 pm

Fat Kat wrote:
Rich Rane wrote:Stolen from the Current Affairs Board, but I think it fits this discussion all the same.
clyde21 wrote:you wanna know why buildings are on fire? watch this.



two identical scenarios, one gets shot 7 times (Blake), the other gets shot a whopping 0 times.

until you can explain and course correct what's happening here, buildings will burn.


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I mean this is never going to change until middle class and upper class white people are routinely harassed, brutalized and murdered by police. There’s a significant empathy gap in America and it will never change until it starts happening to the majority white population.
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Re: George Floyd (and aftermath): Part 2 

Post#54 » by Stannis » Wed Aug 26, 2020 2:39 pm

Kampuchea wrote:I don't agree there is no in-between. And I also don't think they had to unload seven in him, or that they couldn't aim at all from close range. They aren't hitting a bullseye from afar, they are hitting someone right in front of them.

Not a gun expert. But legally speaking, I think that's the law. You can't point a gun at somebody or shoot at somebody unless you have the intention to kill.

That's why you can't* just "shoot them in the leg". Not only that, but shooting the leg really does no good because if the person has the weapon they still have time to shoot you. Nobody is really trained to shoot somebody in the leg.

I don't know what the solution is. But in cases like this, I think cops should have some sort of Call of Duty attachment on their guns (like a really strong tazer or horse tranquilizer) that knockout their target quickly. That should be the mandatory action when there is no gun or weapon on the target.
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Re: George Floyd (and aftermath): Part 2 

Post#55 » by nedleeds » Wed Aug 26, 2020 2:45 pm

She shot him. She's a better, more well trained cop? Probably because she works in a better neighborhood, where the cops can pay more, have better training, have more downtime for mental health.

The guy wasn't actively going back into a vehicle for a possible firearm. The knife was clearly visible.

Look here's a poorly trained trigger happy cop blowing away an innocent white dude in his hotel room. We can do this all day because white people get shot by cops at a similar or higher rate when normalizing for encounters.



mRrrR iT's A RaCE IzzUE noT baDly TrAined Cops
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Re: George Floyd (and aftermath): Part 2 

Post#56 » by Stannis » Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:00 pm

nedleeds wrote:


mRrrR iT's A RaCE IzzUE noT baDly TrAined Cops


First of all, that video you posted wasn't about "badly trained cops". That's a classic case of hiring "bad apples" and defending them to the last breath. FFS, the guy took the time to carve "You’re fvked" on the dust cover of his AR. Why would you hire a guy like that?

And they baited the guy to get shot ("Don't put your hands down, now crawl").

All I saw in that video was a guy aching to shoot somebody. Not a cop who wasn't trained properly.

The jury didn't get to see the evidence.

To top it off, I believe he sued the city and is getting 30k a year for life because of "post traumatic stress". So cops can get rewarded for this kind of behavior.
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Re: George Floyd (and aftermath): Part 2 

Post#57 » by Kampuchea » Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:01 pm

Stannis wrote:
Kampuchea wrote:I don't agree there is no in-between. And I also don't think they had to unload seven in him, or that they couldn't aim at all from close range. They aren't hitting a bullseye from afar, they are hitting someone right in front of them.

Not a gun expert. But legally speaking, I think that's the law. You can't point a gun at somebody or shoot at somebody unless you have the intention to kill.

That's why you can just "shoot them in the leg". Not only that, but shooting the leg really does no good because if the person has the weapon they still have time to shoot you. Nobody is really trained to shoot somebody in the leg.

I don't know what the solution is. But in cases like this, I think cops should have some sort of Call of Duty attachment on their guns (like a really strong tazer or horse tranquilizer) that knockout their target quickly. That should be the mandatory action when there is no gun or weapon on the target.


I’m still sticking with it. If there’s a law that says you are required to try and kill them that law needs to be abolished immediately.

Shooting in the leg doesn’t work when guy has a weapon - fully agree. I didn’t know this guy had a weapon, that certainly changes my line of thinking.
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Re: George Floyd (and aftermath): Part 2 

Post#58 » by Stannis » Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:07 pm

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Re: George Floyd (and aftermath): Part 2 

Post#59 » by Stannis » Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:18 pm

lol this video is getting upvoted on Reddit's Police sub. Basically trying to say just "be polite" to the Police. They don't understand the satire in it:

;feature=emb_title
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Re: George Floyd (and aftermath): Part 2 

Post#60 » by Jeff Van Gully » Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:22 pm

Stannis wrote:lol this video is getting upvoted on Reddit's Police sub. Basically trying to say just "be polite" to the Police. They don't understand the satire in it:

;feature=emb_title


just shows how clueless and willfully ignorant people are about this.

what a strange world where the onus is on the victim to not get shot.
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