NBA games postponed today p14 Players decide to resume Playoffs

[musiqsoulchild]

I blame all of this on social media..how it puts every thing under a microscope and how it makes everyone think that they have a "voice".

I blame all of this on unresolved injustices that happened in the USA's past.

Black people are economic refugees in the north of this country post-slavery. And8 they were not welcomed by the cities of the time. There were race riots almost everywhere that Black people migrated to post-segregation.

Who wants to give up their beautiful neighborhood, jobs and lovely families to uneducated former slaves?

That left many black people with no choice but to forage and steal for food.

Enter the magnum opus of the times. A veritable White Django movie. D.W. Griffith's - Birth of a Nation.

What a hilarious title for such a complicated issue.

There is a LOT to unpack there. A LOT.

If we all educate ourselves on how and why things are the way they are, we would all be a lot more patient and lot less irritated when a black person says their life matters.

[musiqsoulchild]

Cops abuse power because they have power. Enough do it that its systemic.

Systemic problems are like bacterial growth. You only need a significant minority first. Say 10 to 15 percent. Not a majority...but significant enough that without an antibiotic the entire system will seize up.

That's how systemic issues in policing are.

It may be semantic, but I think its important.

There is a big difference between saying there is systemic abuse of power within the police, and we need to resolve that issue and forming and believing that all cops are bad or making statements that include all cops.

If we use your hypothetical number of 10-15 percent, then you have just treated unfairly 85-90% of the police, and your reasons for doing so are just different formats of the same reasons discrimination exists in other areas. You have allowed the negative actions by a few to taint and form your opinion on the all.

I agree systemic abuse of power exists, is important, and should be fixed.

This is where we disagree Doug.

Some systems are binary. They are not meant to be tiered like Spice levels on Curries or Ramen in a restaurant.

You cant be 15% pregnant. Or 15 percent diabetic.

You cant have problems with 15% of your plumbing and somehow hope that the remaining 85% is doing its job.

Policing is like that. Cops are like that. I have seen it in multiple countries.

There are many great cops. But if the system has systemic imbalances then the onus of that falls on the good cops. Probably more than it does on the bad, racist ones.

[chefo]

Let me be frank about this, and that is coming from somebody who has donated time and money to mentor kids from the local projects, as well as help disadvantaged people regardless race and creed:

Don't look at this as some binary choice (BLM or Racist), or you'll lose people like me, who have actually done something to try to better the lives of underprivileged people, for good.

There is NO circumstance where I will EVER support rioting, arson and destroying the livelihoods and property of people who have probably worked their entire lives to get to a point where their lives simply don't suck. Or suck less than before.

It is not a big logical leap to start perceiving BLM and its encouragement of societal violence as nothing more but race-baiting opportunists who have allied themselves with militant, narcissistic whites with mommy & daddy issues that want to tear down society like ANTIFA. That's where this is headed.

And, more importantly, it will achieve nothing but isolate and diminish the people who actually want to bring about not just change, but meaningful, positive change.

I'm with Doug on this one--this has become a cult, a religion. You can't talk about it like grown adults any longer. Something I heard yesterday on a work call shook me because it showed me how people are letting their emotions completely overwhelm their reason.

The CEO of our company, who is a first generation immigrant and a person of color, and who runs a company that has been involved in actively trying to improve the lives of our local impoverished communities for DECADES through charity and volunteering, and which has employees of every religion, color and background, was chided on a call to the workforce by a black employee for saying that the company will continue to support equality for all, and inclusivity, and will NEVER discriminate by color, religion, gender, or sexuality, for not going far enough by saying that the company explicitly supports BLM and its full agenda.

I understand that the negative emotions are running high. I understand why. There are bigots. There are racists. There are bad cops. But to reiterate Doug's point, the guys who let the above define their actions as humans, are a very small minority. And, while I can sympathize that some people in my circle are feeling angry/sad at what's been happening, and I'll offer them my emotional support to talk it through, I'll be the first person to tell them to get their shyte together, should they cross the line and become antagonistic to others, based solely on their skin color (i.e. white or brown).

You're either a decent human being, regardless of color, or you're not. And other decent human beings, which are the vast majority in my experience, tend to care about your character much more so than about the color of your skin.

As for the players walking away--that's entirely their right. Just like it is the right of the owners to stop paying them when they do.

[Bluewaterheaven]

I am just curious as to what they think the outcome is going to be here. What is the outcome of cancelling their own income streams and making a sport highly political? Especially if the season ends and next season there is a lockout? Its not the death of the NBA, but this is not going to make it more popular? A lot of the players, who don't make 100 million will lose money they could be giving to causes... I mean, you could see over a billion in contracts not paid out next season... if a tenth of that money was given to help various causes...

[musiqsoulchild]

I am just curious as to what they think the outcome is going to be here. What is the outcome of cancelling their own income streams and making a sport highly political? Especially if the season ends and next season there is a lockout? Its not the death of the NBA, but this is not going to make it more popular? A lot of the players, who don't make 100 million will lose money they could be giving to causes... I mean, you could see over a billion in contracts not paid out next season... if a tenth of that money was given to help various causes...

It's called Non Cooperation.

Its brought the mighty British Empire to a grinding halt. In just 20 years Britain was reduced from the Land that the Sun never sets on...to a nice island.

[musiqsoulchild]

Let me be frank about this, and that is coming from somebody who has donated time and money to mentor kids from the local projects, as well as help disadvantaged people regardless race and creed:

Don't look at this as some binary choice (BLM or Racist), or you'll lose people like me, who have actually done something to try to better the lives of underprivileged people, for good.

There is NO circumstance where I will EVER support rioting, arson and destroying the livelihoods and property of people who have probably worked their entire lives to get to a point where their lives simply don't suck. Or suck less than before.

It is not a big logical leap to start perceiving BLM and its encouragement of societal violence as nothing more but race-baiting opportunists who have allied themselves with militant, narcissistic whites with mommy & daddy issues that want to tear down society like ANTIFA. That's where this is headed.

And, more importantly, it will achieve nothing but isolate and diminish the people who actually want to bring about not just change, but meaningful, positive change.

I'm with Doug on this one--this has become a cult, a religion. You can't talk about it like grown adults any longer. Something I heard yesterday on a work call shook me because it showed me how people are letting their emotions completely overwhelm their reason.

The CEO of our company, who is a first generation immigrant and a person of color, and who runs a company that has been involved in actively trying to improve the lives of our local impoverished communities for DECADES through charity and volunteering, and which has employees of every religion, color and background, was chided on a call to the workforce by a black employee for saying that the company will continue to support equality for all, and inclusivity, and will NEVER discriminate by color, religion, gender, or sexuality, for not going far enough by saying that the company explicitly supports BLM and its full agenda.

I understand that the negative emotions are running high. I understand why. There are bigots. There are racists. There are bad cops. But to reiterate Doug's point, the guys who let the above define their actions as humans, are a very small minority. And, while I can sympathize that some people in my circle are feeling angry/sad at what's been happening, and I'll offer them my emotional support to talk it through, I'll be the first person to tell them to get their shyte together, should they cross the line and become antagonistic to others, based solely on their skin color (i.e. white or brown).

You're either a decent human being, regardless of color, or you're not. And other decent human beings, which are the vast majority in my experience, tend to care about your character much more so than about the color of your skin.

As for the players walking away--that's entirely their right. Just like it is the right of the owners to stop paying them when they do.

I like the take. I think there is validity in what you're saying.

However, I liken it to my kid who is still learning how to control his emotions and sometimes breaks things or cusses.

I do the best I can to parent him.

The hope isn't that he is better though. The hope is that his kids will be. If he decides to have kids.

[the ultimates]

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[musiqsoulchild]

And this isn't a Black versus White thing.

It's a racial justice versus systemic injustice situation.

The protesters who were shot at and killed were mostly white. The ones who were damaging it were mostly white. The "vigilante" who killed 2 protestors is White.

To me that is a reflection of the fact that the country is now collectively feeling the pain and the aftermath of what was a black centric issue just 30 years ago when LA burned.

I am.not happy about this. But I can sense that the day of reckoning and reconciliation and yes reparation is closer. Will still take decades, but it's closer.

Meanwhile the fight is on. Tucker Carlson - the voice that represents almost 45% of this country just said yesterday that Kyle was upholding the law when Cops failed.

So, yeah.

[cjbulls]

I am just curious as to what they think the outcome is going to be here. What is the outcome of cancelling their own income streams and making a sport highly political? Especially if the season ends and next season there is a lockout? Its not the death of the NBA, but this is not going to make it more popular? A lot of the players, who don't make 100 million will lose money they could be giving to causes... I mean, you could see over a billion in contracts not paid out next season... if a tenth of that money was given to help various causes...

It's called Non Cooperation.

Its brought the mighty British Empire to a grinding halt. In just 20 years Britain was reduced from the Land that the Sun never sets on...to a nice island.

Are you saying the players want to tank the NBA? I didn’t think that was their goal

[musiqsoulchild]

I am just curious as to what they think the outcome is going to be here. What is the outcome of cancelling their own income streams and making a sport highly political? Especially if the season ends and next season there is a lockout? Its not the death of the NBA, but this is not going to make it more popular? A lot of the players, who don't make 100 million will lose money they could be giving to causes... I mean, you could see over a billion in contracts not paid out next season... if a tenth of that money was given to help various causes...

It's called Non Cooperation.

Its brought the mighty British Empire to a grinding halt. In just 20 years Britain was reduced from the Land that the Sun never sets on...to a nice island.

Are you saying the players want to tank the NBA? I didn’t think that was their goal

I am saying that when posters ( in this case Bluewaterheaven) ask...." What do you think the outcome they are looking for?"

Sometimes in life its NOT about the outcome. It's about the steps that lead to it.

When Gandhi started the Non Cooperation movement in India and MLK did something similar here...the end results were not clear.

Complex problems dont have a clear Point A to Point B trajectory in their solutions.

I'll refer back to Doc's question:
" We love you. Why dont you love us back?"

Hes not looking for an answer at which point his boycott will end.

He's just asking ALL of us to introspect.

[JohnnyTapwater]

You have to break a dollar to make change.

[cjbulls]

It's called Non Cooperation.

Its brought the mighty British Empire to a grinding halt. In just 20 years Britain was reduced from the Land that the Sun never sets on...to a nice island.

Are you saying the players want to tank the NBA? I didn’t think that was their goal

I am saying that when posters ( in this case Bluewaterheaven) ask...." What do you think the outcome they are looking for?"

Sometimes in life its NOT about the outcome. It's about the steps that lead to it.

When Gandhi started the Non Cooperation movement in India and MLK did something similar here...the end results were not clear.

Complex problems dont have a clear Point A to Point B trajectory in their solutions.

I'll refer back to Doc's question:
" We love you. Why dont you love us back?"

Hes not looking for an answer at which point his boycott will end.

He's just asking ALL of us to introspect.

If that’s the goal, I’m not getting it. Saying “why don’t you love me” and refusing to play until you get some satisfactory answer just sounds like some sort of psycho spouse. The NBA loves their players and the black community.

Then again, I didn’t agree with your original premise so this may just be why you think they should boycott.

[cjbulls]

You have to break a dollar to make change.

Now what does that mean? They have to break the NBA? How should the NBA be changed?

[League Circles]

I think part of the divide here is that some people see the Blake case as entirely isolated from the broad issue of excessive police force and racism, at least for a few days until hopefully more details come out. Others, unjustifiably IMO even if understandably, see the Blake case as the next chapter in the broad story of excessive police violence and racism.

[the ultimates]

I guarantee if the owners would lock out the players over the CBA and money people would be upset but they wouldn't get even half the vitriol the players are getting for taking a social justice stand. I shouldn't be surprised though people are more than willing to understand and accept selfishness than understand and accept altruism.

[musiqsoulchild]

Are you saying the players want to tank the NBA? I didn’t think that was their goal

I am saying that when posters ( in this case Bluewaterheaven) ask...." What do you think the outcome they are looking for?"

Sometimes in life its NOT about the outcome. It's about the steps that lead to it.

When Gandhi started the Non Cooperation movement in India and MLK did something similar here...the end results were not clear.

Complex problems dont have a clear Point A to Point B trajectory in their solutions.

I'll refer back to Doc's question:
" We love you. Why dont you love us back?"

Hes not looking for an answer at which point his boycott will end.

He's just asking ALL of us to introspect.

If that’s the goal, I’m not getting it. Saying “why don’t you love me” and refusing to play until you get some satisfactory answer just sounds like some sort of psycho spouse. The NBA loves their players and the black community.

Then again, I didn’t agree with your original premise so this may just be why you think they should boycott.

I dont think my opinion should matter at all.

I think people who are grieving should be allowed to grieve.

If you pull them out of their grief too quickly, it just moves to the next generation.

Grief, Trauma, Pain...are best resolved. At the oppressed person/peoples pace. Not at our pace.

All we can do as good citizens is give them the space to grieve and help in any way we can.

[musiqsoulchild]

I think part of the divide here is that some people see the Blake case as entirely isolated from the broad issue of excessive police force and racism, at least for a few days until hopefully more details come out. Others, unjustifiably IMO even if understandably, see the Blake case as the next chapter in the broad story of excessive police violence and racism.

It's not the Blake issue alone. It's what happened after.

It's the way the Police force is condoning that 17 year old kid.

Even yesterday, one of the top cops said " Protesters shouldnt have been out after the curfew".

Guess what...the vigilante was also out after the curfew.

[Bluewaterheaven]

It's called Non Cooperation.

Its brought the mighty British Empire to a grinding halt. In just 20 years Britain was reduced from the Land that the Sun never sets on...to a nice island.

Are you saying the players want to tank the NBA? I didn’t think that was their goal

I am saying that when posters ( in this case Bluewaterheaven) ask...." What do you think the outcome they are looking for?"

Sometimes in life its NOT about the outcome. It's about the steps that lead to it.

When Gandhi started the Non Cooperation movement in India and MLK did something similar here...the end results were not clear.

Complex problems dont have a clear Point A to Point B trajectory in their solutions.

I'll refer back to Doc's question:
" We love you. Why dont you love us back?"

Hes not looking for an answer at which point his boycott will end.

He's just asking ALL of us to introspect.

I am curious... you want the US to look like the UK, that is the goal?

[Bluewaterheaven]

I am saying that when posters ( in this case Bluewaterheaven) ask...." What do you think the outcome they are looking for?"

Sometimes in life its NOT about the outcome. It's about the steps that lead to it.

When Gandhi started the Non Cooperation movement in India and MLK did something similar here...the end results were not clear.

Complex problems dont have a clear Point A to Point B trajectory in their solutions.

I'll refer back to Doc's question:
" We love you. Why dont you love us back?"

Hes not looking for an answer at which point his boycott will end.

He's just asking ALL of us to introspect.

If that’s the goal, I’m not getting it. Saying “why don’t you love me” and refusing to play until you get some satisfactory answer just sounds like some sort of psycho spouse. The NBA loves their players and the black community.

Then again, I didn’t agree with your original premise so this may just be why you think they should boycott.

I dont think my opinion should matter at all.

I think people who are grieving should be allowed to grieve.

If you pull them out of their grief too quickly, it just moves to the next generation.

Grief, Trauma, Pain...are best resolved. At the oppressed person/peoples pace. Not at our pace.

All we can do as good citizens is give them the space to grieve and help in any way we can.

I also can't understand the grieving here. The man was committing a domestic, and then got into a car with three children in it. Whether he has any sort of weapon or not, being surrounded by officers and attempting to run away from them with kids in the car seems like a hostage situation to me...

[dougthonus]

Some systems are binary. They are not meant to be tiered like Spice levels on Curries or Ramen in a restaurant.

You cant be 15% pregnant. Or 15 percent diabetic.

You cant have problems with 15% of your plumbing and somehow hope that the remaining 85% is doing its job.

Policing is like that. Cops are like that. I have seen it in multiple countries.

None of this contradicts anything I said.

Your willingness to judge all people in a group by actions of a few people in a group is discriminatory behavior, it is the basis of all discrimination, it is the basis of racism, sexism, homophobia, whatever. That behavior you are so willing to engage in is horrific.

You can discuss the issue of fixing things without lumping everyone into one group and calling them all awful.

There are many great cops. But if the system has systemic imbalances then the onus of that falls on the good cops. Probably more than it does on the bad, racist ones.

I think this is likely a very unrealistic and unfair expectation which also punishes those that are doing the best they can, because they aren't empowered or able to affect change of other people even though I'm sure there are many whom would desire to do so.

You have now created arguments in these forms:

1: All <members of a group> are bad because some <members of a group> did <this bad thing>.
2: Some <members of a group> did <insert bad thing> so all <members of a group> are bad.
3: Why don't the good <members of a group> stop the bad <members of a group> from committing this <bad action>

If I applied your thought process and inserted African American's into this group, I would come out with the most racist arguments you've ever heard and would be banned for racist comments. That apparently doesn't bother you though, that you are using the argument forms that have excused rampant discrimination for centuries.

It's just not necessary and it prevents actually finding a solution IMO. This is an important issue to resolve, but it won't be resolved with this type of thought process or behavior IMO. When you try to apply solutions that include throwing out 85-90% of the people whom are doing a good job, but you want to convict purely due to group membership then all your solutions will fall apart, and that 85-90% is your number not mine.