Jedzz wrote:shangrila wrote:Jedzz wrote:Perhaps you could expound on what makes Maxey more of a prospect for the NBA, and especially this team, than any of the names such as Desmond Bane, J Ramsey, Haliburton, Vassel, Tyrell Terry, and others that literally have proven a better shooter and are not garbage players outside of their shot. I mean I'm looking for some substance here to explain this. Why must we always be looking at players for this team that "must develop a shot"?
If the responses are just, "Nesmith doesn't cut it" I'm just going to have to pass on further dicussing this. Because I've never even typed his name until just now. There are plenty others and you haven't even given Nesmith the benefit of doubt that you are affording Maxey or these top 3 guys in the draft.
Nesmith was just an example. Probably an extreme one, I'll admit, given his physical limitations compared to others and that his game is only shooting. I mean, specifically with Nesmith, his defence is average at absolute best, his playmaking is below average and he doesn't have much burst and/or skill to create off the dribble. I do think he could be a 40+% 3pt shooter in the league with excellent off ball movement so that's where his value comes from but his defence stacked against Maxey's is seriously lacking.
I think there's been some miscommunication here as well. I'm not advocating for us to draft Maxey per se (I'd take him at 17 but wouldn't move up to get him). My original talk was about Edwards. I just included Maxey because he, like Edwards, didn't shoot the ball well percentage-wise but is widely considered to be a better shooter than that based on form and FT%.
If you're asking for breakdowns of those specific prospects in terms of what might be holding them back or how they stack up to Maxey, I can give it a go;
Bane - Is old, which always depresses stock (I don't agree with it, but it is what it is). He's also apparently got a "negative" wingspan; 6-4 to his 6-6 height. This might affect his abilities defensively. Otherwise though he's a great prospect and should have a 10 year career, but I do think he caps out as a role player. Just doesn't quite have the burst/athleticism to be a high level shot creator IMO. That said I wouldn't be upset if we took him at 17 and if for some ungodly reason he's there at 33 and Rosas doesn't take him I'll personally fly to Minny and slap the man. But compared to Maxey...eh, that's tough. I like both of their defensive abilities and think Maxey has more individual scoring ability but Bane has the better potential to just slot into a lineup. I think it's a toss up between them for me.
Ramsey - I haven't watched much of him, so take what I say with a grain of salt. I've seen people say he's a good defender but I don't see it and his skills outside of shooting seem rudimentary at best. Add to that he's only got a 64% FT and I worry that his shot might actually be fool's gold (3PAs suggest otherwise so it could go either way honestly). But if he can't shoot I'm not sure he provides enough otherwise. Maxey at least brings it defensively and does well moving off screens and the like to still contribute offensively so I'd give him the nod. That said, I probably do need to watch more of Ramsey.
Haliburton - Can't create for himself, can't finish with his frame, too skinny on both ends. He's a smart player but if his shot doesn't translate, which is a legit concern, then he's going to have serious issues offensively. Considering how funky his shot is and that it doesn't translate at all to off the bounce shots I'm thinking more and more that it will end up being an issue for the first few years at least. Considering our timeline, and added to his strength issues that affect both ends, I'm not a huge fan of him for us. I'd gamble on Maxey's combo of defensive ability and scoring over Hali.
Vassell - This is the guy whose shot is basically the icing. The defence is what you're drafting him for and if he can make even a league average amount of 3s he'll be a key piece on a contending team. I wouldn't draft Maxey over him in any situation.
Terry - I actually really like Terry but there's no way around his physical issues. Hopefully with strength training he can better hold his own defensively and finishing (he already finishes quite well though to be fair), but aside from that his playmaking isn't at the level you want from a PG prospect and the defence, while he's got the IQ, also isn't as good as Maxey's. Like Bane this is a toss up for me between these two, but I'd probably give Maxey the edge because I think he provides enough outside of shooting that if his shot isn't an issue he'd be the better all round player. Terry needs a little more to get there (strength, playmaking, etc) although if he's still growing like he suggested in the ESPN vid...hell, maybe he's a 2 guard and suddenly those playmaking concerns disappear entirely.
And for reference, my read on Maxey is that he's a combo guard on both ends, should be a good defender and contributor on offence with or without his shot. Swing skills are shooting and playmaking, shooting being an easy fix for him (needs to just lift his shot a bit, shoot up rather than out) and playmaking might have been hidden at Kentucky which would give him PG potential. The size limits his finishing and some defensive assignments though (bigger 2s might give him trouble, no chance of guarding 3s). Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if he went as high as 8 to the Knicks and I don't think that would be absurd. In general I think his combination of offensive and defensive abilities push him above a lot of the other guys since whatever he lacks in one area he more than makes up on the other (better offensively than Bane, better defensively than Terry for example).
Thanks for putting in the effort at least to share your thoughts on the other players. Nobody else really has. For the record though, it appears you might have a little Maxey on your chin still. I still don't think you are affording these other players the benefit of doubt you are offering him. He's literally done next to nothing amazing in college. But each paragraph and name there you compared to him suggesting he did something better. I've been looking for examples of what gets a few people so excited about him and I've yet to see much of it. I see a player capable of playing at the college level. Nothing screams he's playing above anyone else there at that level, at least that I've seen yet. Again, you are the first to take a stab at comparing any of the others so good on you.
What benefit of the doubt do you think I should be giving them?
I give non-shooters some leeway, assuming they have indicators that they could improve like FT% and 3PAr, because it's typically a skill that's easiest (not easy and certainly not automatic, but easiest) to improve. When you start getting into other issues, either skill wise like playmaking or defensive awareness or physical tools, they're much harder to grow. If you were to ask me specifically, for example, whether I believe Maxey will improve his shooting or Nesmith will improve his athleticism, I'd always choose Maxey. And you could sub those names out for any other combination of similar prospects, the answer would always be the same.
EDIT - I want to add another example so I'm not focusing solely on Nesmith. Vassell's swing skill is his handle, if he can improve that I could see him being a two way star. But do I buy him improving that over Maxey's shooting? No. However, that doesn't mean I value Maxey over Vassell. Specifically I don't think Maxey will ever be the defender Vassell is who seems supernatural on that end.
I should add that I actually like a lot of those other guys as well and that most of them are in a similar tier on my imaginary big board. The only guys I'm not big on are Haliburton, who I think is fool's gold, and Ramsey, who I don't have a great read on but I doubt his shooting given his FT%s. Everyone else is someone I'd be happy if we drafted.
