NBA games postponed today p14 Players decide to resume Playoffs

[TheSuzerain]

Just remove the ability of police to collectively bargain. That's by far the best possible outcome to actually fixing the root cause of the policing issue.

[League Circles]

Just remove the ability of police to collectively bargain. That's by far the best possible outcome to actually fixing the root cause of the policing issue.

I can get on board with that. I don't really see a need for collective bargaining by any public employees, only due to the democratic process that gets them hired in the first place (indirectly), and the lack of profit motive for their employers.

I think step #1 is full time body cams and mics though.

[AshyLarrysDiaper]

Just remove the ability of police to collectively bargain. That's by far the best possible outcome to actually fixing the root cause of the policing issue.

There’s a coalition looking at doing exactly that in San Antonio.

[wonderboy2]

Let me be frank about this, and that is coming from somebody who has donated time and money to mentor kids from the local projects, as well as help disadvantaged people regardless race and creed:

Don't look at this as some binary choice (BLM or Racist), or you'll lose people like me, who have actually done something to try to better the lives of underprivileged people, for good.

There is NO circumstance where I will EVER support rioting, arson and destroying the livelihoods and property of people who have probably worked their entire lives to get to a point where their lives simply don't suck. Or suck less than before.

It is not a big logical leap to start perceiving BLM and its encouragement of societal violence as nothing more but race-baiting opportunists who have allied themselves with militant, narcissistic whites with mommy & daddy issues that want to tear down society like ANTIFA. That's where this is headed.

And, more importantly, it will achieve nothing but isolate and diminish the people who actually want to bring about not just change, but meaningful, positive change.

I'm with Doug on this one--this has become a cult, a religion. You can't talk about it like grown adults any longer. Something I heard yesterday on a work call shook me because it showed me how people are letting their emotions completely overwhelm their reason.

The CEO of our company, who is a first generation immigrant and a person of color, and who runs a company that has been involved in actively trying to improve the lives of our local impoverished communities for DECADES through charity and volunteering, and which has employees of every religion, color and background, was chided on a call to the workforce by a black employee for saying that the company will continue to support equality for all, and inclusivity, and will NEVER discriminate by color, religion, gender, or sexuality, for not going far enough by saying that the company explicitly supports BLM and its full agenda.

I understand that the negative emotions are running high. I understand why. There are bigots. There are racists. There are bad cops. But to reiterate Doug's point, the guys who let the above define their actions as humans, are a very small minority. And, while I can sympathize that some people in my circle are feeling angry/sad at what's been happening, and I'll offer them my emotional support to talk it through, I'll be the first person to tell them to get their shyte together, should they cross the line and become antagonistic to others, based solely on their skin color (i.e. white or brown).

You're either a decent human being, regardless of color, or you're not. And other decent human beings, which are the vast majority in my experience, tend to care about your character much more so than about the color of your skin.

As for the players walking away--that's entirely their right. Just like it is the right of the owners to stop paying them when they do.

Well good for you for doing all that you do. And I think we both agree that there should never be looting. But people have the right to feel the way they want to feel. Theres people who brothers, fathers, sisters, sons, daughters, who have been killed or roughed up by the hands of police. And its a small percent of African Americans actually looting. You have some other races that are looting as well being opportunist. I know plenty of black people that are in the black community that aren’t rioting at all and are not protesting. They feel it’s a waste of time because no matter what you can’t change how people feel if they can’t empathize or never been in those person shoes.

[TheSuzerain]

Just remove the ability of police to collectively bargain. That's by far the best possible outcome to actually fixing the root cause of the policing issue.

I can get on board with that. I don't really see a need for collective bargaining by any public employees, only due to the democratic process that gets them hired in the first place (indirectly), and the lack of profit motive for their employers.

I think step #1 is full time body cams and mics though.

Take a wild guess at what is preventing step #1.

The police union.

And this gets at why the whole "90% of cops are good!" take is useless. If there are that many good cops, then why are the unions how they are?

The reality of it is that cops are mostly like any other population. 10-15% bad, 10-15% good, and 70-80% that just goes with the flow (hint: the flow within law enforcement usually involves fear-mongering).

[dougthonus]

Just remove the ability of police to collectively bargain. That's by far the best possible outcome to actually fixing the root cause of the policing issue.

It's interesting because it's a much wider topic, because in general, the ability to collectively bargain is a powerful ally for the lower/middle class and helps stave off further economic imbalance.

At the same time, the ability to collectively bargain in government jobs has created a lot of the most absurd and biggest problems we have with police and teachers unions being on the forefront of those problems.

[TheSuzerain]

Just remove the ability of police to collectively bargain. That's by far the best possible outcome to actually fixing the root cause of the policing issue.

It's interesting because it's a much wider topic, because in general, the ability to collectively bargain is a powerful ally for the lower/middle class and helps stave off further economic imbalance.

At the same time, the ability to collectively bargain in government jobs has created a lot of the most absurd and biggest problems we have with police and teachers unions being on the forefront of those problems.

It's a shame that we've seen private unions fall mostly out of view to be replaced with public unions. I'd much prefer the opposite.

Although I will say that something like a teacher union hurts less as we aren't granting these people the ability to use lethal force.

[cjbulls]

Surprised to see the boycott didn’t make much national news. I’ve always thought cancelling the season would make a difference, but maybe it won’t in 2020 with so much else going on and sports being off schedule.

[Bluewaterheaven]

Surprised to see the boycott didn’t make much national news. I’ve always thought cancelling the season would make a difference, but maybe it won’t in 2020 with so much else going on and sports being off schedule.

It doesn't help there is a gigantic cat 5 hurricane hitting the country right now. It was poor timing in all honesty. That monster storm took the nations attention last night.

[FecesOfDeath]

If they're willing to sacrifice those hundreds of million dollars in the name of black lives, then they should be willing to sacrifice those billions of dollars from China in the name of free speech in Hong Kong, sovereignty for Taiwan and Tibet, freedom of religion for the Uyghers and Christians, and freedom from bullying in those NBA-sanctioned basketball camps.

I'm not sure why it is complicated to understand why black people whom have been personally been abused by police would care strongly and deeply about how black people are treated in this country and not care at all about what is going on in China.

Saying you care about one thing so you have to care about everything is a fallacy and applying this argument ultimately means no one can care about anything, because no one can care about all things.

You know why I pick the atrocities in China but not the tribal violence throughout Africa, the jihad terrorism in the Philippines or the economic and political turmoil in Venezuela? Because the NBA and a large number of its players and coaches have a significant amount of business relations there. The NBA is allegedly raking in $5 billion a year for this collaboration. A few players even have Chinese-branded personal sneakers created there. The LiAngelo Ball/UCLA incident may have opened their eyes, but the NBA and its willfully ignorant players and coaches are too deeply invested in that country to say anything against it publicly.

Unless there's actually some extreme 4d chess deep undercover infiltration by the US government via the NBA, I can't overlook the abundant hypocrisy of the league and its personnel.

[TheSuzerain]

I am just curious as to what they think the outcome is going to be here. What is the outcome of cancelling their own income streams and making a sport highly political? Especially if the season ends and next season there is a lockout? Its not the death of the NBA, but this is not going to make it more popular? A lot of the players, who don't make 100 million will lose money they could be giving to causes... I mean, you could see over a billion in contracts not paid out next season... if a tenth of that money was given to help various causes...

I'm curious to see where they go with it.

I would argue that sport is inherently political as it is more or less a diversion. In that sense, you can pretty easily view this as a principled stand (i.e. now is not the time for diversion and sport. Look at what's happening in Kenosha and in black communities. Please volunteer/vote instead.)

[dougthonus]

You know why I pick the atrocities in China but not the tribal violence throughout Africa, the jihad terrorism in the Philippines or the economic and political turmoil in Venezuela? Because the NBA and a large number of its players and coaches have a significant amount of business relations there. The NBA is allegedly raking in $5 billion a year for this collaboration. A few players even have Chinese-branded personal sneakers created there. The LiAngelo Ball/UCLA incident may have opened their eyes, but the NBA and its willfully ignorant players and coaches are too deeply invested in that country to say anything against it publicly.

Unless there's actually some extreme 4d chess deep undercover infiltration by the US government via the NBA, I can't overlook the abundant hypocrisy of the league and its personnel.

Do you have some item in your house made from China? Do you care about some cause that impacts your life?

If the answer is yes, then you suffer from the exact same abundant hypocrisy you are complaining about. How could you possibly care about <insert whatever cause you care about> while also being willing to save money by purchasing Chinese products and supporting China?

The answer is pretty obvious, while whatever is going on in China is bad, you don't care about it either. Not enough to change your behavior and spend more on non-Chinese products.

Perhaps of course you are the rare person that boycotts all products from China as well as any other country that has some type of civil rights atrocity going on in it, which I would wager in the end is more or less all countries.

[moorhosj]

If I applied your thought process and inserted African American's into this group, I would come out with the most racist arguments you've ever heard and would be banned for racist comments. That apparently doesn't bother you though, that you are using the argument forms that have excused rampant discrimination for centuries.

This argument immediately falls apart when you consider that police officers choose to join that profession while black people don't really have a choice in being black.

This whole "rotten apple" argument is just as tired. There is a culture of immunity in the police force. I live in a nice Chicago neighborhood and I see police cars without sirens on blasting through stop signs all the time. I see them hit their sirens to make a red light, then immediately turn them off. These aren't the biggest issues in the world, but they certainly speak to a culture where consequences don't exist for some. This culture leads to things like 16 cops working together to conceal the LaQuan McDonald incident https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/xwe784/heres-how-chicago-cops-really-covered-up-the-murder-of-laquan-mcdonald. 16 police officer conspiring to help a fellow officer is not a few "rotten apples" it is proof of systemic lawlessness.

This doesn't even get into the stories of Jon Burge and his torture team, Fred Hampton's murder by CPD and FBI, Ronald Watts framing innocent people, and on and on. These are not one-off stories, they provide a narrative from the COINTELPRO days of the 60s up to today.

[jc23]

If they're willing to sacrifice those hundreds of million dollars in the name of black lives, then they should be willing to sacrifice those billions of dollars from China in the name of free speech in Hong Kong, sovereignty for Taiwan and Tibet, freedom of religion for the Uyghers and Christians, and freedom from bullying in those NBA-sanctioned basketball camps.

I'm not sure why it is complicated to understand why black people whom have been personally been abused by police would care strongly and deeply about how black people are treated in this country and not care at all about what is going on in China.

Saying you care about one thing so you have to care about everything is a fallacy and applying this argument ultimately means no one can care about anything, because no one can care about all things.

You know why I pick the atrocities in China but not the tribal violence throughout Africa, the jihad terrorism in the Philippines or the economic and political turmoil in Venezuela? Because the NBA and a large number of its players and coaches have a significant amount of business relations there. The NBA is allegedly raking in $5 billion a year for this collaboration. A few players even have Chinese-branded personal sneakers created there. The LiAngelo Ball/UCLA incident may have opened their eyes, but the NBA and its willfully ignorant players and coaches are too deeply invested in that country to say anything against it publicly.

Unless there's actually some extreme 4d chess deep undercover infiltration by the US government via the NBA, I can't overlook the abundant hypocrisy of the league and its personnel.

Black people care more about blm the same way Chinese people care more about whats going on in China. For example if the league was 70% Chinese we would see more involvement with what is going on there. So basically if you want to call the league and its players hypocrites you can because they are but we all are.

[cjbulls]

You know why I pick the atrocities in China but not the tribal violence throughout Africa, the jihad terrorism in the Philippines or the economic and political turmoil in Venezuela? Because the NBA and a large number of its players and coaches have a significant amount of business relations there. The NBA is allegedly raking in $5 billion a year for this collaboration. A few players even have Chinese-branded personal sneakers created there. The LiAngelo Ball/UCLA incident may have opened their eyes, but the NBA and its willfully ignorant players and coaches are too deeply invested in that country to say anything against it publicly.

Unless there's actually some extreme 4d chess deep undercover infiltration by the US government via the NBA, I can't overlook the abundant hypocrisy of the league and its personnel.

Do you have some item in your house made from China? Do you care about some cause that impacts your life?

If the answer is yes, then you suffer from the exact same abundant hypocrisy you are complaining about. How could you possibly care about <insert whatever cause you care about> while also being willing to save money by purchasing Chinese products and supporting China?

The answer is pretty obvious, while whatever is going on in China is bad, you don't care about it either. Not enough to change your behavior and spend more on non-Chinese products.

Perhaps of course you are the rare person that boycotts all products from China as well as any other country that has some type of civil rights atrocity going on in it, which I would wager in the end is more or less all countries.

I think it isn’t just that they don’t care, which is understandable (who has time to invest in every issues globally all at once). I’m guessing most around the NBA didn’t know or care about it before everything blew up.

But for China the league actively went out of their way to distance themselves from Morey, including LeBron calling him misinformed and Steve Kerr suddenly not knowing enough about a topic when he’s made himself into a very opinionated coach on every other issue.

It’s one thing to not care. It’s another to purposefully stay silent in pursuit of $$$.

[TheSuzerain]

You know why I pick the atrocities in China but not the tribal violence throughout Africa, the jihad terrorism in the Philippines or the economic and political turmoil in Venezuela? Because the NBA and a large number of its players and coaches have a significant amount of business relations there. The NBA is allegedly raking in $5 billion a year for this collaboration. A few players even have Chinese-branded personal sneakers created there. The LiAngelo Ball/UCLA incident may have opened their eyes, but the NBA and its willfully ignorant players and coaches are too deeply invested in that country to say anything against it publicly.

Unless there's actually some extreme 4d chess deep undercover infiltration by the US government via the NBA, I can't overlook the abundant hypocrisy of the league and its personnel.

Do you have some item in your house made from China? Do you care about some cause that impacts your life?

If the answer is yes, then you suffer from the exact same abundant hypocrisy you are complaining about. How could you possibly care about <insert whatever cause you care about> while also being willing to save money by purchasing Chinese products and supporting China?

The answer is pretty obvious, while whatever is going on in China is bad, you don't care about it either. Not enough to change your behavior and spend more on non-Chinese products.

Perhaps of course you are the rare person that boycotts all products from China as well as any other country that has some type of civil rights atrocity going on in it, which I would wager in the end is more or less all countries.

I think it isn’t just that they don’t care, which is understandable (who has time to invest in every issues globally all at once). I’m guessing most around the NBA didn’t know or care about it before everything blew up.

But for China the league actively went out of their way to distance themselves from Morey, including LeBron calling him misinformed and Steve Kerr suddenly not knowing enough about a topic when he’s made himself into a very opinionated coach on every other issue.

It’s one thing to not care. It’s another to purposefully stay silent in pursuit of $$$.

Those are in fact the same things.

If you don't care that much, then you'll choose the money every time.

[musiqsoulchild]

Some systems are binary. They are not meant to be tiered like Spice levels on Curries or Ramen in a restaurant.

You cant be 15% pregnant. Or 15 percent diabetic.

You cant have problems with 15% of your plumbing and somehow hope that the remaining 85% is doing its job.

Policing is like that. Cops are like that. I have seen it in multiple countries.

None of this contradicts anything I said.

Your willingness to judge all people in a group by actions of a few people in a group is discriminatory behavior, it is the basis of all discrimination, it is the basis of racism, sexism, homophobia, whatever. That behavior you are so willing to engage in is horrific.

You can discuss the issue of fixing things without lumping everyone into one group and calling them all awful.

There are many great cops. But if the system has systemic imbalances then the onus of that falls on the good cops. Probably more than it does on the bad, racist ones.

I think this is likely a very unrealistic and unfair expectation which also punishes those that are doing the best they can, because they aren't empowered or able to affect change of other people even though I'm sure there are many whom would desire to do so.

You have now created arguments in these forms:

1: All <members of a group> are bad because some <members of a group> did <this bad thing>.
2: Some <members of a group> did <insert bad thing> so all <members of a group> are bad.
3: Why don't the good <members of a group> stop the bad <members of a group> from committing this <bad action>

If I applied your thought process and inserted African American's into this group, I would come out with the most racist arguments you've ever heard and would be banned for racist comments. That apparently doesn't bother you though, that you are using the argument forms that have excused rampant discrimination for centuries.

It's just not necessary and it prevents actually finding a solution IMO. This is an important issue to resolve, but it won't be resolved with this type of thought process or behavior IMO. When you try to apply solutions that include throwing out 85-90% of the people whom are doing a good job, but you want to convict purely due to group membership then all your solutions will fall apart, and that 85-90% is your number not mine.

I dont know why you're beefing with me. I have no clue.

Are you saying that I am over-generalizing in calling cops bad?

I am calling bad cops bad. And I am going to call silent cops silent. And I am going to call good cops, good.

The Policing system is bad and corrupt. From.hiring practices to internal metric fudging and extra-judicial justice they meet out.

We love our Dirty Harry's as much as we hate the Racist cops. That doesnt make Dirty Harry good.

What am I missing?

[FecesOfDeath]

You know why I pick the atrocities in China but not the tribal violence throughout Africa, the jihad terrorism in the Philippines or the economic and political turmoil in Venezuela? Because the NBA and a large number of its players and coaches have a significant amount of business relations there. The NBA is allegedly raking in $5 billion a year for this collaboration. A few players even have Chinese-branded personal sneakers created there. The LiAngelo Ball/UCLA incident may have opened their eyes, but the NBA and its willfully ignorant players and coaches are too deeply invested in that country to say anything against it publicly.

Unless there's actually some extreme 4d chess deep undercover infiltration by the US government via the NBA, I can't overlook the abundant hypocrisy of the league and its personnel.

Do you have some item in your house made from China? Do you care about some cause that impacts your life?

If the answer is yes, then you suffer from the exact same abundant hypocrisy you are complaining about. How could you possibly care about <insert whatever cause you care about> while also being willing to save money by purchasing Chinese products and supporting China?

The answer is pretty obvious, while whatever is going on in China is bad, you don't care about it either. Not enough to change your behavior and spend more on non-Chinese products.

Perhaps of course you are the rare person that boycotts all products from China as well as any other country that has some type of civil rights atrocity going on in it, which I would wager in the end is more or less all countries.

Do I buy products manufactured in China? Occasionally.

Do I consciously search a product's packaging for its manufacturing location? Yes.

Do I have a deep, direct working relationship with China or its companies? Am I receiving investment money from any Chinese corporations or the Chinese government itself? Would I ever accept seed money from Chinese corporations for any of my potential future startups? No, no, and likely never.

Do people who receive cash throw that cash away if they thought some particular bill was laundered by a cartel or large criminal organization? Almost never.

I love playing these strawman games.

[AshyLarrysDiaper]

The power of police unions definitely needs to be checked. A shocking number of police fired for misconduct win their jobs back through arbitration, and the ones that don’t more often than not get jobs with other PDs in other cities.

But the notion that public unions on the whole should also be knee capped is why we won’t see movement on the FOP issue. The AFL-CIO, SEIU, and other national unions will circle the wagons on cops if you turn this into an existential threat to their own public sector membership.

So I would leave teachers, janitors and secretaries out of it. Sure, there are issues with public unions, but the alternative to their existence is a declining quality of life that will have serious implications for the private sector as well.

[cjbulls]

Do you have some item in your house made from China? Do you care about some cause that impacts your life?

If the answer is yes, then you suffer from the exact same abundant hypocrisy you are complaining about. How could you possibly care about <insert whatever cause you care about> while also being willing to save money by purchasing Chinese products and supporting China?

The answer is pretty obvious, while whatever is going on in China is bad, you don't care about it either. Not enough to change your behavior and spend more on non-Chinese products.

Perhaps of course you are the rare person that boycotts all products from China as well as any other country that has some type of civil rights atrocity going on in it, which I would wager in the end is more or less all countries.

I think it isn’t just that they don’t care, which is understandable (who has time to invest in every issues globally all at once). I’m guessing most around the NBA didn’t know or care about it before everything blew up.

But for China the league actively went out of their way to distance themselves from Morey, including LeBron calling him misinformed and Steve Kerr suddenly not knowing enough about a topic when he’s made himself into a very opinionated coach on every other issue.

It’s one thing to not care. It’s another to purposefully stay silent in pursuit of $$$.

Those are in fact the same things.

If you don't care that much, then you'll choose the money every time.

No they are not.

In one, you are not actively involving yourself in an issue. It comes from a lack of resources (time, money, energy, etc.) In the other, you are actively avoiding an issue that you would normally support, and is similar to your issue (even if not to the same extent as other issues) because it hurts you financially.

Avoiding conflict from some “oppressors” so you can take their money is hypocritical when you are trying to take a large stand against other oppressors.