The Ben Simmons Megathread - Part IV

[Bum Adebayo]

Defense is not very important these days, it is all about being able to score on the ball in today's NBA. Simmons needs to improve on the offensive end and learn how to score on the ball if he wants to justify the max.

[kuclas]

Defense is not very important these days, it is all about being able to score on the ball in today's NBA. Simmons needs to improve on the offensive end and learn how to score on the ball if he wants to justify the max.

But Ben is such a unique player. At 6 foot 10. His height does really bother shorter point guards. On a pick and pop jump shot. It’s more difficult to shoot over Simmons than a 6 foot 5/6 Richardson or thybulle. You have to change the arch of your shot more.

I dunno if we even win the series in the bubble since we are so bad on the road. But sixers stood a chance at home and Simmons height scoring vs small Boston as evident in 3 of the 4 games.

[HotelVitale]

So Ben is the best perimeter defender in the league. Sounds accurate. Still couldn't prevent Khawi destroying us last season.

Take a look at the tape again, not sure what you think anyone could've done against Kawhi. That was one of the most keyed-in series of all time.

Watch on YouTube

[Bum Adebayo]

Defense is not very important these days, it is all about being able to score on the ball in today's NBA. Simmons needs to improve on the offensive end and learn how to score on the ball if he wants to justify the max.

But Ben is such a unique player. At 6 foot 10. His height does really bother shorter point guards. On a pick and pop jump shot. It’s more difficult to shoot over Simmons than a 6 foot 5/6 Richardson or thybulle. You have to change the arch of your shot more.

I dunno if we even win the series in the bubble since we are so bad on the road. But sixers stood a chance at home and Simmons height scoring vs small Boston as evident in 3 of the 4 games.

No chance, because the issue remains, nobody can score on the ball good enough. We would've won 1, maybe 2 games but that's it. When the score is tight at end of games, we are gonna lose 80% of the time, Embiid is a choker under pressure and Simmons cannot score in late game.
Also please stop mentioning regular season again, we never learn about this, in 2018 it was our amazing 16-17 win run whatever it was, then this season our 3-1 record against Celtics, we never learn. Playoffs are a different beast, teams scheme more, there is more intensity, etc.

[Sixerscan]

Defense is not very important these days, it is all about being able to score on the ball in today's NBA. Simmons needs to improve on the offensive end and learn how to score on the ball if he wants to justify the max.

This is for everyone else that doesn't blindly complain about everything - Ben Simmons is gonna be like the 35th highest paid player in the league next year. He's gonna be making ~$14 million less than the highest paid player. The idea that he has to be an elite on the ball scorer on top of everything else he does to "justify his max" is just silly.

Embiid and Simmons are very good values on their contracts, the issue is we're paying like half of the cap to Harris and Horford and not getting near that level of production.

[76ciology]

I also don’t have any problem with Ben’s salary.

What I have a problem is him not averaging more 16ppg guard, in an era where guards carry the offense, who hasn’t shown any improvement in his offense for the last 3 seasons, as one of the guys we wish to build around.

[Sixerscan]

I also don’t have any problem with Ben’s salary.

What I have a problem is him not averaging more 16ppg guard, in an era where guards carry the offense, who hasn’t shown any improvement in his offense for the last 3 seasons, as one of the guys we wish to build around.

Well he averaged 22 ppg in the last full healthy month he had before he got hurt.

But this just seems like another way to say the same thing. If Harris was Klay and Horford was Jrue (just to take two guys that are comparably paid to those but have salary rankings that seem close to how they would be ranked as players) we wouldn't need Ben to be this huge scorer. Harris was given that contract because they thought he could be a top two option, and he just hasn't. Horford was signed to be a two way player that can play with our two stars, and he it just hasn't worked out. So at this point it's on Ben and Joel to develop to cover for that. Which maybe they can still do but I wouldn't say what any of us expected a few years ago. With all the assets this team had at its disposal a few years ago and it's "star hunting" mantra it said that it had the fact that is doesn't have another bonafide all star on the roster is pretty disappointing. Personally I trusted them that they saw some upside with Tobias and maybe from a leadership standpoint or whatever that's true but from an on court standpoint it's just not there.

Don't get me wrong Ben needs to shoot and develop out his offensive game more but this thing where you guys take positive news (that the guy was recognized as the 4th best defensive player in the league or whatever) and take it as a chance to just complain about what he doesn't do well is nonsense, imo. He's a very good player on a very good contract and if the front office doesn't bring in talent to surround him that's on them.

[76ciology]

Defense is not very important these days, it is all about being able to score on the ball in today's NBA. Simmons needs to improve on the offensive end and learn how to score on the ball if he wants to justify the max.

But Ben is such a unique player. At 6 foot 10. His height does really bother shorter point guards. On a pick and pop jump shot. It’s more difficult to shoot over Simmons than a 6 foot 5/6 Richardson or thybulle. You have to change the arch of your shot more.

I dunno if we even win the series in the bubble since we are so bad on the road. But sixers stood a chance at home and Simmons height scoring vs small Boston as evident in 3 of the 4 games.

Unique player.

It brings me back to when I was hoping we draft Ingram. Then BC came. Then when he was interviewed he was asked who he will draft. He said, he can’t say who because of some ethical issues. But what he can say is Ben is a unique player.

Don’t get me wrong. Being unique maybe a good thing. But it could mislead on how you value a player. Like Isaiah Thomas and Boban Marjanovic are also unique players for their height. So can be said with 6’6” center Grant Williams or Mo Bamba and his 7’9” wingspan.

IMO in the end, as a guard can you give me the scoring and shooting I need? Why shooting and scoring? Because those two are the most valued trait for their position.

That said I’m not knocking down Ben’s defense. I think it’s special because you can switch the PnR with him defending PGs. Like for instance against the Celts, maybe he can switch to Kanter or Theis and this may allow Biid to step out to cover Kemba or Tatum.

But between a guard who can play excellent defense but is a poor shooter and an average scorer versus a guard who is an excellent scorer who can shoot but is horrible on defense, I think I’ll pick the later one. Anyday.

[Zumramania]

Defense is not very important these days, it is all about being able to score on the ball in today's NBA. Simmons needs to improve on the offensive end and learn how to score on the ball if he wants to justify the max.

This is for everyone else that doesn't blindly complain about everything - Ben Simmons is gonna be like the 35th highest paid player in the league next year. He's gonna be making ~$14 million less than the highest paid player. The idea that he has to be an elite on the ball scorer on top of everything else he does to "justify his max" is just silly.

Embiid and Simmons are very good values on their contracts, the issue is we're paying like half of the cap to Harris and Horford and not getting near that level of production.

You know, when you put it like this, I wonder what Ben and Joel must be thinking about all this with Harris and Horford? Like each of them would probably benefit from a certain type of teammate (like Joel got along well with Butler), and there are teammates who would benefit both of them, but they've managed to bring in two guys who are not a clear benefit to neither Ben nor Joel.

[elchengue20]

The problem isn't that he's a "poor shooter" or even an below average shooter. He's a NON shooter. He doesn't shoot it because he can't shoot it. Opposing defenses doesn't give a crap if he has the ball more than 4ft away from the basket. That's a big problem in today's NBA. Even more if the other franchise player is a C who most of his game relies on playing inside. Also he's terrible at FT shooting so he's a liabilty at the end of close games.

For example, the other day i heard people saying Ben in place of Bledsoe would make the Bucks much better, because both are defense first PG and poor shooters. I disagree, comparing to Ben, players like Bledsoe or Westbrook are Ray Allen in terms of how much the defense has to respect their shooting. Having Ben in there would make the defense to colapse on Giannis much more easily, destroying everything the Bucks do.

Ben is basically a poor man's Giannis at this point, they would suck together. Giannis also tried to be a PG in his early days, he really improved when he got a coach who knew what he was doing and put him at PF. They are similar players in many ways, with Giannis being an better version of him in everything except passing.

[76ciology]

You know, when you put it like this, I wonder what Ben and Joel must be thinking about all this with Harris and Horford? Like each of them would probably benefit from a certain type of teammate (like Joel got along well with Butler), and there are teammates who would benefit both of them, but they've managed to bring in two guys who are not a clear benefit to neither Ben nor Joel.

They can’t say much because both of them are also not playing up to their part.

You bring guys who can benefit both, then both have to play like a superstars like how Lakers did with how they surround AD and Bron. And we saw it in 2018.

You bring guys who can play like stars, then one or both have to play a lesser role that they may not like. Because if you bring guys who play like stars, they can carry the offense better than these two and they will need to have the ball. And we saw it in 2019.

You bring guys who are a balanced of both, then you ask more from these guys who were brought it to be role players. What do you expect? Al horford is a 13ppg when he made the allstar with the Celts, is part of all our 10 most used 5 man units. 7 of them are positives 5 man units on the floor. Tobias Harris averaged 20ppg this season, 3 points fewer than embiid.

Leaders lead. They don’t ask from their followers to carry their load.

[Sixerscan]

You know, when you put it like this, I wonder what Ben and Joel must be thinking about all this with Harris and Horford? Like each of them would probably benefit from a certain type of teammate (like Joel got along well with Butler), and there are teammates who would benefit both of them, but they've managed to bring in two guys who are not a clear benefit to neither Ben nor Joel.

They can’t say much because both of them are also not playing up to their part.

You bring guys who can benefit both, then both have to play like a superstars like how Lakers did with how they surround AD and Bron. And we saw it in 2018.

You bring guys who can play like stars, then one or both have to play a lesser role that they may not like. Because if you bring guys who play like stars, they can carry the offense better than these two and they will need to have the ball. And we saw it in 2019.

You bring guys who are a balanced of both, then you ask more from these guys who were brought it to be role players. What do you expect? Al horford is a 13ppg when he made the allstar with the Celts, is part of all our 10 most used 5 man units. 7 of them are positives 5 man units on the floor. Tobias Harris averaged 20ppg this season, 3 points fewer than embiid.

Leaders lead. They don’t ask from their followers to carry their load.

Sorry but you're paying guys $33 million and $30 million you're not just asking them to be followers or role players. Or if you are you shouldn't be surprised when the team falls short.

Especially Harris, you don't pay a guy like that (He's gonna be making more money than Ben and Joel for at least the next 3 years) unless you think he can become an all star, which given that the only real above average ability he has is scoring means that you expect him to become close to a top option on a good team. Instead had as bad a series as Simmons did as a rookie against the Celtics. Not good!

I don't see any issue with Harris' fit with Ben or Joel, he just hasn't been good enough.

[76ciology]

You know, when you put it like this, I wonder what Ben and Joel must be thinking about all this with Harris and Horford? Like each of them would probably benefit from a certain type of teammate (like Joel got along well with Butler), and there are teammates who would benefit both of them, but they've managed to bring in two guys who are not a clear benefit to neither Ben nor Joel.

They can’t say much because both of them are also not playing up to their part.

You bring guys who can benefit both, then both have to play like a superstars like how Lakers did with how they surround AD and Bron. And we saw it in 2018.

You bring guys who can play like stars, then one or both have to play a lesser role that they may not like. Because if you bring guys who play like stars, they can carry the offense better than these two and they will need to have the ball. And we saw it in 2019.

You bring guys who are a balanced of both, then you ask more from these guys who were brought it to be role players. What do you expect? Al horford is a 13ppg when he made the allstar with the Celts, is part of all our 10 most used 5 man units. 7 of them are positives 5 man units on the floor. Tobias Harris averaged 20ppg this season, 3 points fewer than embiid.

Leaders lead. They don’t ask from their followers to carry their load.

Sorry but you're paying guys $33 million and $30 million you're not just asking them to be followers or role players. Or if you are you shouldn't be surprised when the team falls short.

Especially Harris, you don't pay a guy like that (He's gonna be making more money than Ben and Joel for at least the next 3 years) unless you think he can become an all star, which given that the only real above average ability he has is scoring means that you expect him to become close to a top option on a good team.

I don't see any issue with Harris' fit with Ben or Joel, he just hasn't been good enough.

We’re both not Elton Brand, so we don’t know why they paid them that much. And I don’t think the FO or anyone in this planet expects them to play like $30+M per year players.

If I have to guess, it’s more of they expect that adding both guys makes us as talented as the other $130M or around $130M teams like the Raptors ($125M) and the Bucks ($130M).

Because seriously, nobody in this world would expect Tobi and Al to play like $30+M players and if you are a GM and is looking to construct the yearly budget, you will proportion it to the OVERALL talent and OVERALL salary of your team compared to other comparable teams.

And if Biid played like how he played last season (he had a really big decline this season) and Ben is much improved, I think we can be as good or even better than both the Bucks and the Raptors. And certainly better than the Celtics.

I don’t think that when they projected us to be a top team in the league before the season started (favorites to win the chip actually), they considered the decline in Biid’s game specially on defense, the lack of improvement in Ben’s offense while expecting Al Horford to average 20-10 with a couple of blocks to carry our babies.

[VDT]

The problem is that if you want to win the title the basketball value of the players you put on the court needs to be higher than any other team. This can be done partly by going above the cap and partly by having players on good contract. A neutral value contract is likely bad for a contender precisely for this reason. Moreover the best way to improve the average value of your contracts is through your max players. You can try and get roleplayers on bargain contracts but the truth is that most of the times there will be a team that will give them at least a fair contract. As a result you need your max players to considerably outperform their contracts. That's the problem currently with Simmons and Embiid to a lesser extent.

Nobody, even the idiots in the FO, thought that Harris or Horford would perform according to their salary. Everyone knows they are not max players, the Sixers just had money to spare and didnt know what to do it.

The problem is that the actual max players are not, particularly Simmons, outperforming their contracts and that they dont compliment each other. So in that sense their contracts, especially Simmons, are an issue.

[Sixerscan]

The problem is that if you want to win the title the basketball value of the players you put on the court needs to be higher than any other team. This can be done partly by going above the cap and partly by having players on good contract. A neutral value contract is likely bad for a contender precisely for this reason. Moreover the best way to improve the average value of your contracts is through your max players. You can try and get roleplayers on bargain contracts but the truth is that most of the times there will be a team that will give them at least a fair contract. As a result you need your max players to considerably outperform their contracts. That's the problem currently with Simmons and Embiid to a lesser extent.

Nobody, even the idiots in the FO, thought that Harris or Horford would perform according to their salary. Everyone knows they are not max players, the Sixers just had money to spare and didnt know what to do it.

The problem is that the actual max players are not, particularly Simmons, outperforming their contracts and that they dont compliment each other. So in that sense their contracts, especially Simmons, are an issue.

I mean that's my point. They had four years of Ben Simmons on a rookie contract to figure out a good core around him and Embiid and this is what they ended up with.

Sure at this point what they need is for Embiid and Simmons to be top 10 players despite not being paid close to that and turn their weaknesses that we've known about since before they were drafted into strengths, but that wasn't inevitable.

[VDT]

The problem is that if you want to win the title the basketball value of the players you put on the court needs to be higher than any other team. This can be done partly by going above the cap and partly by having players on good contract. A neutral value contract is likely bad for a contender precisely for this reason. Moreover the best way to improve the average value of your contracts is through your max players. You can try and get roleplayers on bargain contracts but the truth is that most of the times there will be a team that will give them at least a fair contract. As a result you need your max players to considerably outperform their contracts. That's the problem currently with Simmons and Embiid to a lesser extent.

Nobody, even the idiots in the FO, thought that Harris or Horford would perform according to their salary. Everyone knows they are not max players, the Sixers just had money to spare and didnt know what to do it.

The problem is that the actual max players are not, particularly Simmons, outperforming their contracts and that they dont compliment each other. So in that sense their contracts, especially Simmons, are an issue.

I mean that's my point. They had four years of Ben Simmons on a rookie contract to figure out a good core around him and Embiid and this is what they ended up with.

Sure at this point what they need is for Embiid and Simmons to be top 10 players despite not being paid close to that and turn their weaknesses that we've known about since before they were drafted into strengths, but that wasn't inevitable.

Yes i agree that they could have done better. At the same time that is why you need to have a top 5 player to win, it is really unlikely that a team will have 3-4 all stars (assuming that Harris and Horford performed according to their contracts) on its roster.

[elchengue20]

Biid and Simmons don't fit.

And on top of that, Tobias and Horford were terrible signings who don't fit with them. So yeah, the whole situation is a mess. We have talent and you can win some games in the regular season because of that, but forget about making deep Playoff runs with this team.

If you want to simplify the problem, you could say that in the modern NBA Tobias is a PF, Ben is a PF, Embiid is a C and Horford is a C/PF. And people wonder why we are terrible lol.

If we ain't moving Ben or Embiid at least we should trade Tobias for a perimeter player who is a good willing three point shooter and can run PnR, create of the dribble,etc. That would be a start.

[Sixerscan]

Embiid and Simmons had a +16.4 net rating on the court together in the the Raptors series last year. That's better than any rotation two man combo the Raptors had in that series.

Is a big part of that because they had other good players that could do things they struggle at? Yes, that's the whole point. A key part of them "fitting" is the other 3 guys on the court.

[freshie2]

I really like Ben, but he still isn't a respectable shooter (nor overly willing to try) and now has two injuries to end the season. Not untouchable if you can get a king's (or Bulls) ransom. Would love to see him fulfill his potential here, but the injuries change the lens (Hinkie) through which we have to look.

[Stanford]

Embiid and Simmons had a +16.4 net rating on the court together in the the Raptors series last year. That's better than any rotation two man combo the Raptors had in that series.

Glad someone said it. I sick of this Embiid and Simmons can't fit stuff. It takes the blame off the coach and front office and it just isn't true. A competent front office would be able to make it fit.