WWE General Discussion II

[The_Brecht]

It's insane they brought him back and directly push him.

[Texas Chuck]

Shocked at how you guys feel about Flair. Nobody better.

[jakecronus8]

It's insane they brought him back and directly push him.

My only hope is that they have far more information than the public does and that it’s a clear case of a phony extortion attempt.

[Ruzious]

Shocked at how you guys feel about Flair. Nobody better.

He's the lead guy on the industry's Mount Rushmore. You can hear the echo's... Whoo,,, whoo... whoo.

Treasure him while he's still alive.

[Texas Chuck]

Shocked at how you guys feel about Flair. Nobody better.

He's the lead guy on the industry's Mount Rushmore. You can hear the echo's... Whoo,,, whoo... whoo.

Treasure him while he's still alive.

He's just incredible and when you take every thing into account I just don't see an argument for anyone else. I get Hogan was this sort of larger than wrestling figure, but he was so bad at much of his main job. I get the nostalgia for the Attitude guys like Rock and Austin, but they have relatively short careers especially with respect to Flair. HBK great, Taker I was never a big fan of but respect his career obviously.

Closest guy to Flair for me might be Jericho actually. Just a guy really good at the whole business and absolutely elite on promos.

[Scott Hall]

Shocked at how you guys feel about Flair. Nobody better.

He's the lead guy on the industry's Mount Rushmore. You can hear the echo's... Whoo,,, whoo... whoo.

Treasure him while he's still alive.

He's just incredible and when you take every thing into account I just don't see an argument for anyone else. I get Hogan was this sort of larger than wrestling figure, but he was so bad at much of his main job. I get the nostalgia for the Attitude guys like Rock and Austin, but they have relatively short careers especially with respect to Flair. HBK great, Taker I was never a big fan of but respect his career obviously.

Closest guy to Flair for me might be Jericho actually. Just a guy really good at the whole business and absolutely elite on promos.

I will bet the farm you were born in the late 60's to early to mid 70's and grew up with Flair as "the guy" or he was
your favorite

To be considered the GOAT you actually have to be the GOAT at least something and Flair is not even top 5 in
most major metrics that would hold serious value for that claim.

Since wrestling is a business and the object is to make money being a Draw is about as important as it gets
and he's not even in the same universe as guys like Hogan, Austin, Andre etc. He was a draw in the South
where most of his hardcore fans reside. During the first wrestling Boom that Hogan was responsible for he
was a big fish in a small pond in the NWA/WCW. During the 2nd Wrestling Boom when Hogan joined the nWo
and the rise of Austin and the Monday Night Wars he was a mid carder and a non factor. The only time he
was the alpha dog of the industry was the late 70's to early to mid 80's in the territory days. Most people
didn't even see it as Cable TV still wasn't prevalent and there was no internet obviously this doesn't compare
with the Golden era and Atittude era of WWE and the Monday Night Wars.

Famous matches? he severely lacks in this category as well. His best and most famous matches are with Ricky
Steamboat and outside of some notable matches with Terry Funk, Sting, Harley Race, his WM 8 match with
Savage and the 1992 Royal Rumble there isn't much there and when you compare that to other legends he gets
demolished.

Look? He never had a great marketable look you'd use to sell toys or magazines or put on the cover of video games.
He had a pretty generic body with the classic old school wrestling attire with the buck teeth and long blonde hair.
He stole his robe and name from "Nature Boy" Buddy Rogers. He didn't really appeal to kids either. When it
comes to "Look" you gotta rank Sting, the Road Warriors, Hogan, Ultimate Warrior, Bret, Austin, Rock, HBK, Taker,
Randy Savage etc way ahead of him.

Mic skills/Promo... Ok heres really the only thing where he's in the convo as the GOAT. But you also have guys like
Dusty Rhodes, Roddy Piper, Shawn Michaels, CM Punk, John Cena, Chris Jericho, Kurt Angle, HHH etc etc.

International appeal? he has some history in Japan and Canada but not even close to guys like Hogan, Andre, Bret
Hart, Undertaker etc who are like gods in places like Japan, Canada, Europe, India, Australia and Saudi Arabia.

Miscellaneous things... Being the leader of the 4 Horsemen does carry a lot of weight and being apart of Evolution
has some value. But they still don't compare to Hogan leading the nWo who revolutionized the business and
DX and the Hart Foundation are also in that convo.

Big Moments? Does he have anything that compares to Hogan and Austins heel turns? or HBK throwing Marty
Jannetty through the barber shop window? or Bret Hart and the Montreal Screw Job? Flair has no real Wrestlemania
moments other then his "retirement" match with Shawn Michaels.

Longevity is a huge and under valued metric but guys like Hogan, Undertaker, Jericho, HHH, Terry Funk, Dusty, HBK
also have that.

Hogan doesn't even really need to be on Mount Rushmore he needs to have his own separate mountain of GOAT.

[Texas Chuck]

I will bet the farm you were born in the late 60's to early to mid 70's and grew up with Flair as "the guy" or he was
your favorite

Born in the 70's? Check So maybe a push on your bet?

Grew up with Flair? Nope. Grew up in Dallas with the Von Erichs and the Fabulous Freebirds. I was a big Kevin Von Erich and Michael PS Hayes guy. Also would watch Saturday Main Event and had a friend whose dad always bought Wrestlemania. Got really invested during the Monday Night Wars and was a huge Rock, Foley, and Edge mark.

Came to Flair well past his prime but could see even then this guy really had "it". So have gone back and watched a lot of his earlier stuff. It's kinda like when it was happening I was a Showtime Lakers fan, but now I definitely appreciate Bird more and can't believe my nascent basketball self preferred Magic and Worthy and Cooper and Rambis.

I just think Flair is the best and assumed much more hardcore wrestling fans than me would appreciate him more. But to each their own.

[Scott Hall]

I will bet the farm you were born in the late 60's to early to mid 70's and grew up with Flair as "the guy" or he was
your favorite

Born in the 70's? Check So maybe a push on your bet?

Grew up with Flair? Nope. Grew up in Dallas with the Von Erichs and the Fabulous Freebirds. I was a big Kevin Von Erich and Michael PS Hayes guy. Also would watch Saturday Main Event and had a friend whose dad always bought Wrestlemania. Got really invested during the Monday Night Wars and was a huge Rock, Foley, and Edge mark.

Came to Flair well past his prime but could see even then this guy really had "it". So have gone back and watched a lot of his earlier stuff. It's kinda like when it was happening I was a Showtime Lakers fan, but now I definitely appreciate Bird more and can't believe my nascent basketball self preferred Magic and Worthy and Cooper and Rambis.

I just think Flair is the best and assumed much more hardcore wrestling fans than me would appreciate him more. But to each their own.

Just because me and others don't have him as the GOAT doesn't mean we don't appreciate him we still have him
on Mount Rushmore.

A lot of what you're saying seems to be your own personal subjective opinion as opposed to being objective and
ranking these guys accordingly which is always the issue whenever people have wrestling debates.

I think a good sports comparison for Flair might be Kobe... he has a lot of rings and he has a hardcore fanbase
that's convinced he's the GOAT but there are some holes and asterisks on his resume that can't be overlooked
and drop him down a peg or two.

What was it of Flair that you enjoyed looking back on his stuff from his earlier days?

I worked on a Ric Flair moveset during quarantine for the 2K game to make it accurate as possible with a few other
legends so I watched a ton of his matches. One thing I didn't like was that he did the spot where he always gets
caught jumping off the top rope into a deadley drive and of course the overselling of the body flop to the ground
when he's getting a beating he did it every match.

He actually didn't have an advanced diverse moveset I watched a 1 hour Iron man match on Youtube from a
Boston house show in the early 90's against Bret Hart and most of Flairs offense is basic stuff like headlocks,
chinlocks, front face locks etc. I watched so many matches against Bret Hart where Bret has to dumb it down
and revamp his style and adjust to Flair.

Bret recently said in an interview he thought Flair was trying to sabotage their matches at the time but really
Flair can only work a "Ric Flair style match" and I totally get it watching it now. Watching Flair in the 80's and
90's wrestle is actually like watching a throwback of a guy wrestling in the 60's which is kind of cool in that
regard.

[The_Brecht]

It's insane they brought him back and directly push him.

My only hope is that they have far more information than the public does and that it’s a clear case of a phony extortion attempt.

They should communicate about it.
They way Triple H reacted on the matter is weird and doesn't give any reason to assume they know more.
It's just a really really bad look.

[jakecronus8]

It appears that the Retribution stable from Monday (or at least the people under the masks) were

Spoiler:

Kayden Carter, Chelsea Green, Mia Yim, Dio Maddin, Shane Thorne and Dominik Dijakovic.

Again, could just be who they picked to play the roles but if not consider me underwhelmed. If that’s who they go with I hope they kinda do what AEW did with Dark Order and eventually pick a leader. No one in that group stands out as someone to carry a promo in my opinion.

[Ruzious]

It appears that the Retribution stable from Monday (or at least the people under the masks) were

Spoiler:

Kayden Carter, Chelsea Green, Mia Yim, Dio Maddin, Shane Thorne and Dominik Dijakovic.

Again, could just be who they picked to play the roles but if not consider me underwhelmed. If that’s who they go with I hope they kinda do what AEW did with Dark Order and eventually pick a leader. No one in that group stands out as someone to carry a promo in my opinion.

if they're going to use

Spoiler:

CM Punk

, this would seem to be a good role for him.

[jakecronus8]

It appears that the Retribution stable from Monday (or at least the people under the masks) were

Spoiler:

Kayden Carter, Chelsea Green, Mia Yim, Dio Maddin, Shane Thorne and Dominik Dijakovic.

Again, could just be who they picked to play the roles but if not consider me underwhelmed. If that’s who they go with I hope they kinda do what AEW did with Dark Order and eventually pick a leader. No one in that group stands out as someone to carry a promo in my opinion.

if they're going to use

Spoiler:

CM Punk

, this would seem to be a good role for him.

While I would normally agree, I would hate to waste a return like that with no fans there to make the moment. Half the reason I still watch wrestling is because I have small hopes that I’ll get to witness that in real time.

[tugs]

Wonder what happened to the Hair vs Hair stipulation. Did I miss something?

I suppose Deville's going back to NXT?

[JohnPferdelack]

Sonya took a timeout due to her trial (kidnapper). Her lawyer recommended to appear with hair.

Why to NXT???

[tugs]

Yeah just read about going to court.

NXT? Why not though she'll be immediately one of the top players there.

[Dominator83]

I will bet the farm you were born in the late 60's to early to mid 70's and grew up with Flair as "the guy" or he was
your favorite

Born in the 70's? Check So maybe a push on your bet?

Grew up with Flair? Nope. Grew up in Dallas with the Von Erichs and the Fabulous Freebirds. I was a big Kevin Von Erich and Michael PS Hayes guy. Also would watch Saturday Main Event and had a friend whose dad always bought Wrestlemania. Got really invested during the Monday Night Wars and was a huge Rock, Foley, and Edge mark.

Came to Flair well past his prime but could see even then this guy really had "it". So have gone back and watched a lot of his earlier stuff. It's kinda like when it was happening I was a Showtime Lakers fan, but now I definitely appreciate Bird more and can't believe my nascent basketball self preferred Magic and Worthy and Cooper and Rambis.

I just think Flair is the best and assumed much more hardcore wrestling fans than me would appreciate him more. But to each their own.

Just because me and others don't have him as the GOAT doesn't mean we don't appreciate him we still have him
on Mount Rushmore.

A lot of what you're saying seems to be your own personal subjective opinion as opposed to being objective and
ranking these guys accordingly which is always the issue whenever people have wrestling debates.

I think a good sports comparison for Flair might be Kobe... he has a lot of rings and he has a hardcore fanbase
that's convinced he's the GOAT but there are some holes and asterisks on his resume that can't be overlooked
and drop him down a peg or two.

What was it of Flair that you enjoyed looking back on his stuff from his earlier days?

I worked on a Ric Flair moveset during quarantine for the 2K game to make it accurate as possible with a few other
legends so I watched a ton of his matches. One thing I didn't like was that he did the spot where he always gets
caught jumping off the top rope into a deadley drive and of course the overselling of the body flop to the ground
when he's getting a beating he did it every match.

He actually didn't have an advanced diverse moveset I watched a 1 hour Iron man match on Youtube from a
Boston house show in the early 90's against Bret Hart and most of Flairs offense is basic stuff like headlocks,
chinlocks, front face locks etc. I watched so many matches against Bret Hart where Bret has to dumb it down
and revamp his style and adjust to Flair.

Bret recently said in an interview he thought Flair was trying to sabotage their matches at the time but really
Flair can only work a "Ric Flair style match" and I totally get it watching it now. Watching Flair in the 80's and
90's wrestle is actually like watching a throwback of a guy wrestling in the 60's which is kind of cool in that
regard.

Yea as I mentioned earlier, he was very "just ok" in the ring. As far as iconic character, I have him behind Hogan, Cena, Rock, Austin. The argument against rock and Austin obviously being that they weren't around long enough (Austin was in the business longer than Rock, but was only a top guy for a few years). I have Flair in the next tier alongside Michaels, Taker, and possibly HHH (though HHH might be a tier below that)

He's still a top 7 all time character, just not GOAT status imo

Edit to add: there is also some truth to what Scott said about Flair spending pretty much all his prime in WCW. Pre-Hogan WCW just wasn't on the same stratosphere as WWF. Now if he had spent the 80's and more of the 90's with the WWF being marketed by Vince, I would put him above Cena for sure, and probably Austin/Rock as well.

[jakecronus8]

Read on Twitter

If Meltzer is the biggest turd in wrestling I guess that makes Alvarez the biggest fly on the biggest turd. They need to stick to their comfort zone of beating off to AEW and Japanese wrestling.

[Stanford]

Read on Twitter

If Meltzer is the biggest turd in wrestling I guess that makes Alvarez the biggest fly on the biggest turd. They need to stick to their comfort zone of beating off to AEW and Japanese wrestling.

Isn't he just explaining the heat? I don't understand what the problem is.

[Scott Hall]

Born in the 70's? Check So maybe a push on your bet?

Grew up with Flair? Nope. Grew up in Dallas with the Von Erichs and the Fabulous Freebirds. I was a big Kevin Von Erich and Michael PS Hayes guy. Also would watch Saturday Main Event and had a friend whose dad always bought Wrestlemania. Got really invested during the Monday Night Wars and was a huge Rock, Foley, and Edge mark.

Came to Flair well past his prime but could see even then this guy really had "it". So have gone back and watched a lot of his earlier stuff. It's kinda like when it was happening I was a Showtime Lakers fan, but now I definitely appreciate Bird more and can't believe my nascent basketball self preferred Magic and Worthy and Cooper and Rambis.

I just think Flair is the best and assumed much more hardcore wrestling fans than me would appreciate him more. But to each their own.

Just because me and others don't have him as the GOAT doesn't mean we don't appreciate him we still have him
on Mount Rushmore.

A lot of what you're saying seems to be your own personal subjective opinion as opposed to being objective and
ranking these guys accordingly which is always the issue whenever people have wrestling debates.

I think a good sports comparison for Flair might be Kobe... he has a lot of rings and he has a hardcore fanbase
that's convinced he's the GOAT but there are some holes and asterisks on his resume that can't be overlooked
and drop him down a peg or two.

What was it of Flair that you enjoyed looking back on his stuff from his earlier days?

I worked on a Ric Flair moveset during quarantine for the 2K game to make it accurate as possible with a few other
legends so I watched a ton of his matches. One thing I didn't like was that he did the spot where he always gets
caught jumping off the top rope into a deadley drive and of course the overselling of the body flop to the ground
when he's getting a beating he did it every match.

He actually didn't have an advanced diverse moveset I watched a 1 hour Iron man match on Youtube from a
Boston house show in the early 90's against Bret Hart and most of Flairs offense is basic stuff like headlocks,
chinlocks, front face locks etc. I watched so many matches against Bret Hart where Bret has to dumb it down
and revamp his style and adjust to Flair.

Bret recently said in an interview he thought Flair was trying to sabotage their matches at the time but really
Flair can only work a "Ric Flair style match" and I totally get it watching it now. Watching Flair in the 80's and
90's wrestle is actually like watching a throwback of a guy wrestling in the 60's which is kind of cool in that
regard.

Yea as I mentioned earlier, he was very "just ok" in the ring. As far as iconic character, I have him behind Hogan, Cena, Rock, Austin. The argument against rock and Austin obviously being that they weren't around long enough (Austin was in the business longer than Rock, but was only a top guy for a few years). I have Flair in the next tier alongside Michaels, Taker, and possibly HHH (though HHH might be a tier below that)

He's still a top 7 all time character, just not GOAT status imo

Edit to add: there is also some truth to what Scott said about Flair spending pretty much all his prime in WCW. Pre-Hogan WCW just wasn't on the same stratosphere as WWF. Now if he had spent the 80's and more of the 90's with the WWF being marketed by Vince, I would put him above Cena for sure, and probably Austin/Rock as well.

Yeah the longevity of Austin/Rock is really a big knock against them especially when comparing
them to Hogan.

Hogan was the face of WWF, WCW and AWA... Austin/Rock were just the face of WWE for 4-5 years. Hogan also
has a big history in Japan and was a major draw there as well where Austin/Rock have no history there.

Also Austins heel turn was a major flop and he had to turn face again less then a year later where Hogans heel turn
revolutionized the business (again) and Hollywood Hogan became a legendary character. When Hogan came back
to WWE in 2002 he was out popping guys like Austin, Rock, HHH in their prime and had some of the biggest pops
in history.

If you look at all things that people would consider the most important metrics in what makes a good wrestler
objectively it's clear that Hogan is the GOAT and the distance between him and everybody else is substantial.

But most people are to stubborn and will prop up their personal favs as the GOAT. If Austin didn't get injured and
Rock didn't find success in Hollywood early that cut off his career short maybe they could've severely given Hogan
a run for his money as the GOAT.

This narrative by some people that Flair is the GOAT is so preposterous when Flair isn't even the GOAT in one
singe category it's like those old timers that think Gordie Howe and Bobby Orr were better then Gretzky or
that Wilt Chamberlin or Oscar Robertson was better then Jordan.

[Texas Chuck]

I mean I think we all get Hogan is the biggest draw. But he was boring. His promos were boring. His in-ring work was terrible and that's generous. Major props on him for figuring out how to get over, but should the GOAT be the most over guy or the best guy?

Brittney Spears has sold a lot more records than Radiohead. She ain't better.

For me the best needs to be able to work--Flair could do that. He's not HBK or Steamboat or Daniel Bryan but he could work. They need to be able to cut a great promo--he could do that. Maybe he's not peak Rocky or Jericho, but he could talk. He needs a great character and Flair had one of the best. He led stables, he was arguably the GOAT heel, but he could work babyface if need be.

Maybe he isn't, but Hogan isn't either unless your criteria is just money. Which is true if you are Vince but probably shouldn't be if you are a fan.

And maybe I don't give Jericho enough credit. Maybe he should be considered the GOAT over Flair. But man I got to be entertained and that's why Hogan and Taker are forever off the table for me despite probably being the biggest two names. Both of them just so boring.