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2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th!

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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th! 

Post#1221 » by Grodoboldo » Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:26 pm

Pax for Prez wrote:More information that the Warriors would not be selecting C Wiseman at # 2.

"Believe it or not, the Warriors are actually higher on Southern Cal’s (Onyeka) Okongwu than James Wiseman," he wrote. "If they end up taking a big man in the top five, it’ll almost definitely be the 6-foot-9 Okongwu. His game is well-suited for the Warriors’ style.

"Unlike Wiseman, Okongwu can shuttle between multiple positions with ease."

https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/warriors/nba-rumors-warriors-not-high-james-wiseman-wont-draft-him-no-2?fbclid=IwAR3jibxMwp-g8PJs77W_jm18qVO9CxPHR3a1RCy_NATKATSVRetx7Fq1mXw


Yeah, I think Wiseman will drop and some people will meltdown when we (hopefully) don't pick him.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th! 

Post#1222 » by Leslie Forman » Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:28 pm

bad knees wrote:The more I look at Hayes and the others, the more I am convinced that he should be the Bulls' choice, if he is there at 4. I say "if he is there at 4" because Kevin O'Connor of The Ringer just named Hayes as # 1 on his Big Board, and with good reason. Here's the link to The Ringer article: https://nbadraft.theringer.com/

Here's the problem with Hayes, which is written in that very same article and is why it really makes no sense for O'Connor to have him #1:

Kevin O'Connor wrote:Limited athlete who lacks burst and bounce, which hinders his finishing ability, especially since he rarely uses his right hand.

Lacks an advanced handle. Picks up his dribble too often, which gets him into trouble. He’s shifty but doesn’t create a ton of separation and doesn’t string together advanced moves to break down defenses.

So basically, he's:
1. Not that good a ballhandler
2. Not that good an athlete

Strength, shooting, defense can all be improved with experience. These two things? Not really. You generally know right away whether or not a guy's got handles, and obviously you aren't gonna somehow become faster as you're older.

If you could combine Ball and Hayes into one guy you'd have one hell of a prospect. Unfortunately they're both just themselves.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th! 

Post#1223 » by Jcool0 » Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:34 pm

bad knees wrote:
Jcool0 wrote:If you are going off of what AK is looking for then they wont be picking Hayes. He has talked about adding talent and its up to the coaches to maximize it. I just don't see Hayes having the upside the Bulls are looking for. Anthony Edwards would be a lock but he wont be around by #4.


I think you are confusing athleticism and talent. Edwards has the former; Hayes has the latter.


Hayes doesnt have the talent to go top 5. Hayes just has the floor and in a weak draft teams are looking to minimize risk.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th! 

Post#1224 » by bad knees » Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:37 pm

Leslie Forman wrote:
bad knees wrote:The more I look at Hayes and the others, the more I am convinced that he should be the Bulls' choice, if he is there at 4. I say "if he is there at 4" because Kevin O'Connor of The Ringer just named Hayes as # 1 on his Big Board, and with good reason. Here's the link to The Ringer article: https://nbadraft.theringer.com/

Here's the problem with Hayes, which is written in that very same article and is why it really makes no sense for O'Connor to have him #1:

Kevin O'Connor wrote:Limited athlete who lacks burst and bounce, which hinders his finishing ability, especially since he rarely uses his right hand.

Lacks an advanced handle. Picks up his dribble too often, which gets him into trouble. He’s shifty but doesn’t create a ton of separation and doesn’t string together advanced moves to break down defenses.

So basically, he's:
1. Not that good a ballhandler
2. Not that good an athlete

Strength, shooting, defense can all be improved with experience. These two things? Not really. You generally know right away whether or not a guy's got handles, and obviously you aren't gonna somehow become faster as you're older.

If you could combine Ball and Hayes into one guy you'd have one hell of a prospect. Unfortunately they're both just themselves.


He's a "limited athlete" only in terms of elite NBA athleticism. He's plenty athletic when you watch him on film, plus he's got a natural shiftiness and ability to change speeds. Add in his step back and his floater game, and he has a combination of traits that suggest he will be a scorer in the league.

The handle issue is all about his left hand dominance. Can this not be improved? He doesn't have to be ambidextrous; many successful guys in the league are known to favor one hand over the other.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th! 

Post#1225 » by Ugly Duckling » Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:38 pm

Little Nathan wrote:
Ugly Duckling wrote:Nesmith is the only player I'd trade down for based on the current mocks. I'd consider 11 and Derrick White from San Antonio for it

The Spurs aren't doing that, not even close. Derrick White was phenomenal in the bubble, showed some real improvement.


Word is they're looking to move up and want Murray to be the their PG
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th! 

Post#1226 » by Leslie Forman » Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:42 pm

bad knees wrote:He's a "limited athlete" only in terms of elite NBA athleticism. He's plenty athletic when you watch him on film, plus he's got a natural shiftiness and ability to change speeds. Add in his step back and his floater game, and he has a combination of traits that suggest he will be a scorer in the league.

The handle issue is all about his left hand dominance. Can this not be improved? He doesn't have to be ambidextrous; many successful guys in the league are known to favor one hand over the other.

Nah. People keep trying to compare him to Russell, but look at the tape of Russell in college. His quickness and handle is clearly on another level. Hayes just doesn't have anywhere near the stop-start, side-to-side, shifty awkwardness Russell did. The only time Hayes looks vaguely "athletic" is in a long runway situation (this goes for Deni too).

And frankly I wouldn't even want the actual D'Angelo Russell. Hell, Golden State got to know him very well obviously and they immediately got rid of him.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th! 

Post#1227 » by bad knees » Fri Aug 28, 2020 2:41 am

Leslie Forman wrote:
bad knees wrote:He's a "limited athlete" only in terms of elite NBA athleticism. He's plenty athletic when you watch him on film, plus he's got a natural shiftiness and ability to change speeds. Add in his step back and his floater game, and he has a combination of traits that suggest he will be a scorer in the league.

The handle issue is all about his left hand dominance. Can this not be improved? He doesn't have to be ambidextrous; many successful guys in the league are known to favor one hand over the other.


Nah. People keep trying to compare him to Russell, but look at the tape of Russell in college. His quickness and handle is clearly on another level. Hayes just doesn't have anywhere near the stop-start, side-to-side, shifty awkwardness Russell did. The only time Hayes looks vaguely "athletic" is in a long runway situation (this goes for Deni too).

And frankly I wouldn't even want the actual D'Angelo Russell. Hell, Golden State got to know him very well obviously and they immediately got rid of him.


We’ll have to take a closer look at the tape. I think there’s enough there. And for sure none of the other options intrigue me. Possibly Deni, I guess, but I see role player written all over him.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th! 

Post#1228 » by wolffy » Fri Aug 28, 2020 2:45 am

Hayes is a pedestrian athlete. His step back is the only NBA level thing in his game imo.

Hes a plus shooter but i just dont see what else he can bring. Could he a decent player still with that shot but id rather look elsewhere at 4.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th! 

Post#1229 » by AshyLarrysDiaper » Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:05 am

Leslie Forman wrote:
bad knees wrote:He's a "limited athlete" only in terms of elite NBA athleticism. He's plenty athletic when you watch him on film, plus he's got a natural shiftiness and ability to change speeds. Add in his step back and his floater game, and he has a combination of traits that suggest he will be a scorer in the league.

The handle issue is all about his left hand dominance. Can this not be improved? He doesn't have to be ambidextrous; many successful guys in the league are known to favor one hand over the other.

Nah. People keep trying to compare him to Russell, but look at the tape of Russell in college. His quickness and handle is clearly on another level. Hayes just doesn't have anywhere near the stop-start, side-to-side, shifty awkwardness Russell did. The only time Hayes looks vaguely "athletic" is in a long runway situation (this goes for Deni too).

And frankly I wouldn't even want the actual D'Angelo Russell. Hell, Golden State got to know him very well obviously and they immediately got rid of him.



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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th! 

Post#1230 » by Jcool0 » Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:10 am

So if Hayes becomes Russell 2.0 is that even a good outcome?
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th! 

Post#1231 » by bad knees » Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:41 am

Jcool0 wrote:So if Hayes becomes Russell 2.0 is that even a good outcome?


If Hayes matches Russell as a scorer, he will be a great player because he already is much better than Russell at passing, defense and BB IQ.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th! 

Post#1232 » by Chicagoat » Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:42 am

Jcool0 wrote:So if Hayes becomes Russell 2.0 is that even a good outcome?


As a prospect, Russell was better than Hayes was in couple of aspects like ball handling. But I believe Hayes could have a better future than Russell.

Unlike Russell, Hayes is a better team defender AND is a willing defender. Also Hayes is good in transition and can finish. Hayes also has a better FT% than Russell did in college meaning that he could become a better shooter than Russell is. Albeit he had less free attempts than Russell did in college. But I believe in Hayes shot since he shoots so good on step back jumpers . 41.1 FG% / 52.1 aFG% (30/73) this year. While last year, he shot 31.4 FG% / 33.3% aFG% (16-51) in shots off the dribble

In a ideal scenario, I see Hayes becoming a better shooter version of Russell that is an able and willing defender(not all team-defense caliber obviously but one where he isn't a negative on that end like Russell is) . On a higher end scenario, he could become a Harden caliber player. But that is only if he keeps improving at his current rate and has the mentality to become great.(He seems to have a good head on his shoulder based on the interviews that I saw.)

I am really high on Hayes because of the improvements he made each year while he was in the pros. He is only 19 years old too. My only concerns is his athleticism but since he is a good player in transition; it's hard to imagine than his athleticism would not be able to work in the NBA.

Also, I feel that the left hand only critique is overblown since most lefties have that issue but I have NEVER seen a player bust because they can only use their left hand. Most of his negatives can easily be worked upon and the sky is the limit for this kid.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th! 

Post#1233 » by cjbulls » Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:57 am

Jcool0 wrote:So if Hayes becomes Russell 2.0 is that even a good outcome?


Having Russell’s tools is a great start. I’d say Russell has had a below average career for what his skills and athleticism brought to the table.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th! 

Post#1234 » by TheHrvReport » Fri Aug 28, 2020 4:19 am

I think he'll be better then DLo

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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th! 

Post#1235 » by Jvaughn » Fri Aug 28, 2020 4:22 am

wolffy wrote:Hayes is a pedestrian athlete. His step back is the only NBA level thing in his game imo.

Hes a plus shooter but i just dont see what else he can bring. Could he a decent player still with that shot but id rather look elsewhere at 4.


Not sure what scouting report you're using. He's not a pedestrian athlete at all. He just doesn't windmill on the break or try to put players on posters on drives. He's a solid athlete by NBA standards. I don't know where people get below average from. His stepback is NBA level along with his PnR play, and his vision which honestly could be considered elite at the NBA level.

He's also not a plus shooter. He has shooting potential, but that's an area he needs to improve in. Biggest knocks are the left hand dominance, shooting, and consistency on defense. The ball handling and shooting should get better with NBA training. The defense may never be a huge plus, but he doesn't need to be elite there. Just make sure he's not a liability.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th! 

Post#1236 » by kodo » Fri Aug 28, 2020 4:24 am

If a team got Russell 2.0 with even the #1 pick in this weak draft they should be ecstatic, much less at #4.

#4 in average drafts gets you Dion Waiters, Tristan Thompson, Wes Johnson, Cody Zeller, Dragan Bender, etc..
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th! 

Post#1237 » by drosereturn » Fri Aug 28, 2020 4:33 am

Jcool0 wrote:So if Hayes becomes Russell 2.0 is that even a good outcome?


Except Russell is 10 times better player and Hayes is getting so overrated bc of the Harden stepback.
Former consensus number 2 pick in a strong draft vs a top 10 prospect in one of the worst draft your comparing with.
Absolutely underwhelming prospect jack of all trades wouldnt touch him at 4. Hes really not great at one single aspect hard to see him being elite.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th! 

Post#1238 » by drosereturn » Fri Aug 28, 2020 4:37 am

Grodoboldo wrote:
Pax for Prez wrote:More information that the Warriors would not be selecting C Wiseman at # 2.

"Believe it or not, the Warriors are actually higher on Southern Cal’s (Onyeka) Okongwu than James Wiseman," he wrote. "If they end up taking a big man in the top five, it’ll almost definitely be the 6-foot-9 Okongwu. His game is well-suited for the Warriors’ style.

"Unlike Wiseman, Okongwu can shuttle between multiple positions with ease."

https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/warriors/nba-rumors-warriors-not-high-james-wiseman-wont-draft-him-no-2?fbclid=IwAR3jibxMwp-g8PJs77W_jm18qVO9CxPHR3a1RCy_NATKATSVRetx7Fq1mXw


Yeah, I think Wiseman will drop and some people will meltdown when we (hopefully) don't pick him.


This is just misinformation. While he will fall to 4 if Warriors dont pick, this is probably false rumor to make people believe he is not a good prospect which is not true. No sane org will spread inside info to outsiders so they get vulnerable.

Okongwu has a better floor but your cannot teach Howard level athleticism, wingspan, height. He has really no limit on ceiling.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th! 

Post#1239 » by Fastbrk4brkfast » Fri Aug 28, 2020 4:46 am

Okongwu is starting to grow on me. Initially I was turned off by his lack of a perimeter game. The Bulls could really use his rebounding though.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th! 

Post#1240 » by wolffy » Fri Aug 28, 2020 4:50 am

Jvaughn wrote:
wolffy wrote:Hayes is a pedestrian athlete. His step back is the only NBA level thing in his game imo.

Hes a plus shooter but i just dont see what else he can bring. Could he a decent player still with that shot but id rather look elsewhere at 4.


Not sure what scouting report you're using. He's not a pedestrian athlete at all. He just doesn't windmill on the break or try to put players on posters on drives. He's a solid athlete by NBA standards. I don't know where people get below average from. His stepback is NBA level along with his PnR play, and his vision which honestly could be considered elite at the NBA level.

He's also not a plus shooter. He has shooting potential, but that's an area he needs to improve in. Biggest knocks are the left hand dominance, shooting, and consistency on defense. The ball handling and shooting should get better with NBA training. The defense may never be a huge plus, but he doesn't need to be elite there. Just make sure he's not a liability.


Im more refering to his step back three being strong. But nba level athlete is being kind. Low end average maybe but nothing more

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