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Around The NBA: 2019-20 RESTART

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Re: Around The NBA: 2019-20 RESTART 

Post#541 » by Dresden » Fri Aug 28, 2020 7:43 pm

dice wrote:
Dresden wrote:
dice wrote:given that lebron is the spiritual leader of the players, i think that history would be very kind to him if the season was cancelled under his leadership. the nba GOAT argument is small potatoes compared to this social moment. jim brown is lionized several decades after his playing days for much more than his on-field greatness


And how will history treat him for one night wanting to cancel the season, and the next day changing his mind, most likely for financial reasons?

as already noted at least twice, lebron james's finances would not be materially affected by the remainder of this season being cancelled


And I'm saying I don't see how that could be true. In the long run, losing out on all that playoff TV money has to got hurt the league, and since James is such a big part of that, and hopes to one day be an owner, it certainly would not be in his financial interests to harm the league by taking away those playoff TV revenues, and by taking away the playoffs- which certainly would be a bit of a PR problem for the league.
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Re: Around The NBA: 2019-20 RESTART 

Post#542 » by dice » Fri Aug 28, 2020 7:58 pm

Dresden wrote:Spiritual leader??

RealGM WiretapRealGM Wiretap

LeBron James' Attitude During Meetings 'Turned Off' Owners, Younger Players
AUG 28, 2020 2:45 PM


During Friday's episode of First Take, Stephen A. Smith shed light on the role LeBron James played in meetings with his fellow players on Wednesday evening and the owners on Thursday.

"To call him a leader at this particular moment in time, that would not apply," said Smith. "When you talk to people inside the bubble, let me tell you what I heard. I heard, first of all, he was speaking out of pocket and was talking to the players in a fashion that really turned some of these young cats off. This is a new day. This is a new generation. As we have said on previous shows when cats were out in the streets protesting and things of that nature, just talking about the younger generation, they're not having it anymore. Well, guess what, the younger generation of players were not having what they were hearing from LeBron James because of the fashion in which he spoke to them.

"So when he stormed out of there, I was told it was in part because of that. And he sort of came off like 'I got mine, I don't need this.' And he walked out.

"Now, we later learned the Lakers and the Clippers were the two teams who did not want to participate."

The Lakers and Clippers decided on Thursday morning that they would continue with the playoffs, and that led to a call between two player representatives of each team, the NBPA, Adam Silver, Michael Jordan and a governor from each team still in the playoffs. Smith was told, however, the Lakers had four representatives on the call.

"When everyone thought the meeting was over, LeBron James grabs the mic, and from what I'm told talks for about 15 minutes," said Smith. "And he's talking for about 15 minutes in a fashion that turned everybody off because they had already agreed to what they were going to do moving forward. And he was talking about 'The guys beneath me. I have to look out for the guys beneath me.'

"To the point where you had people saying 'What the hell you mean...beneath you?'

"They didn't say that to him, but they certainly said it to people like myself, Woj and others that were covering the meeting. He came across as if he was the king with some crown and what have you, and it was a real, real turnoff.

"Why is this relevant, ladies and gentleman? It is relevant because you're trying to galvanize folks with your More Than A Vote movement. This is the same LeBron James who has that excellent show executive produced by himself and my man Maverick Carter on The Shop on HBO. Remember, you're talking during that show, you want to be an owner. Well, you already alienated owners when you departed from Cleveland to go [to the Heat] the first time. You obviously were on the verge of alienating owners this time around. And this is a good old boys club. They don't have to let you in as an owner, which is what he ultimately wants."

Smith pointed out how Larry Ellison has tried to purchase an NBA team for years, but the league and owners have so far not let him do so.

"So for LeBron to have these aspirations but really turning people off the way that he has, some of the players, executives, owners...LeBron James needs to be careful. He usually sees the forest for the trees. Over the last two days, that was not the case. He turned a lot of people off by how he tried to come across as if he were big time. He needs to be careful about that, from what I've been told by numerous people that were present."

Smith indicated that the message James conveyed was wanting to put pressure on the owners, but they had already agreed to help the players as he spoke last.

"A lot of people are talking about it in Orlando because of how he came across. He did not look good."

confirms that it's not about his personal finances. he directly says that he changed his stance in favor of continuing the season because he's looking out for "the guys beneath" him and the younger players don't like the way he said it?

that article says that over the course of his long career he has been a good leader and messenger but that over the last 2 days he turned some people off
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Re: Around The NBA: 2019-20 RESTART 

Post#543 » by dice » Fri Aug 28, 2020 7:59 pm

Dresden wrote:
dice wrote:
Dresden wrote:
And how will history treat him for one night wanting to cancel the season, and the next day changing his mind, most likely for financial reasons?

as already noted at least twice, lebron james's finances would not be materially affected by the remainder of this season being cancelled


And I'm saying I don't see how that could be true. In the long run, losing out on all that playoff TV money has to got hurt the league, and since James is such a big part of that, and hopes to one day be an owner, it certainly would not be in his financial interests to harm the league by taking away those playoff TV revenues, and by taking away the playoffs- which certainly would be a bit of a PR problem for the league.

added to my response as you were replying
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Re: Around The NBA: 2019-20 RESTART 

Post#544 » by dumbell78 » Fri Aug 28, 2020 11:15 pm

dougthonus wrote:
dice wrote:as already noted in post 516, cancelling the season at this point would be of little consequence to the players financially. the owners have very little leverage here beyond their ability to fund further awareness of an issue that is obviously very important to the players. thus the boycott


I don't think this is true at all. It would have very little short term impact because the players are paid (by and large) already. However, the owners could then use this to open up a new CBA because the players are unwilling to cooperate under the existing one, and it would likely be scortched Earth negotiation at this point.

We're at a precipice here where it could easily turn incredibly ugly really fast if both sides don't make enough compromise to get on the same page. I'm sure there are owners that would love to redo a CBA negotiation now, especially after the playoffs is canceled and revenue can easily be predicted to be down 20-30% next year and teams may lose money by playing games anyway and can simply lock out the players for a full season where fans may not be in seats and while doing so, negotiate a long term split of like 60/40 or something massively in their favor, maybe usher in a hard cap or other things.

Whether they could pull that off or not, who knows, but the owners would be in a massively, massively stronger position in a lockout right now because they'd void all player costs and might come out ahead financially while the lockout is in progress compared to the players whom will just be losing money.

Not saying it will go this way of course, I think the owners actually very much sympathize with the players and are respectfully trying to meet them half way and do what they can. I expect both sides to figure something out. However, if they don't, I would expect everyone to lose financially here, but the players to take the biggest financial loss by a good margin.


This is spot on. The issue with Lebron changing his mind is not about the short term, its about the long game. This bubble is a net negative for the NBA and is not bringing in any profits. Its not a model they want to follow with ever again. They cancelling of playoffs, would have bigger implications down the track. Its effects the next season, revenue sharing, and ultimately a bigger lock out then we have seen. The owners would use this to rake the union, it would get ugly. We've read enough from guys like Woj and Shams to paint a picture of what went down. From my POV, LeBron was not helping much the last 48 hours.

Jaylon Brown said it best, when he asked what they were going to do if they just pack up and go home. Are you just going to go chill with your family?

I'm willing to bet, some of LBJ advisers and handlers had a real talk with him and they brought these issues to the forefront. Had they gone through with what LeBron wanted, the biggest losers in the long game would have been the players and the union. You cant just grab your ball and go home.
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Re: Around The NBA: 2019-20 RESTART 

Post#545 » by MrSparkle » Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:16 am

I said it on the General Board, but I'll repeat it here... I do think Lebron is getting too much flack.

You're not even allowed to be POTUS until you hit 35, and Lebron just turned 35. He's been making adult decisions since he's been a teenager, kinda stopped his academic education at the HS level cause his career took off. I don't mean at all to imply he's not intelligent - rather, it's a lot to ask from a relatively young athlete whose focus has still been 99% on competing as an athlete to make decisions that go beyond the game of basketball and have MAJOR socio-political-economic consequences. I think he was a bit impulsive and emotional this week, and now is getting too much heat from ESPN and what not.

But take his side for what it is. I think he meant well and is doing his best. I do agree with the premise that MJ is a great voice in this because he was a player and an owner. There is no easy solution to anything right now - it's 1 unlikable choice against another. Hell, Obama got involved to consult the guys.

Similarly, guys ripped into MJ about the 'Republicans buy shoes' and Kobe's 'cold' personality during their playing days... But competing in sports and life experience are way different mind-sets, and the focus and traits needed to win athletic competitions (which are pretty crude and simple; you try to beat the opponent by having greater intensity) don't translate to social policy.

This is pretty major stuff, so I cut Lebron slack for not handling things like Buddha.
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Re: Around The NBA: 2019-20 RESTART 

Post#546 » by DASMACKDOWN » Sat Aug 29, 2020 2:04 am

Read on Twitter


This sucks for KP.

And he is now in Red Flag status. He essentially is a 7'3 Derrick Rose in terms of injuries. ACL tear in left knee, Meniscus tears in Right Knee.

And I know its different for those types of tears based on size and play but I feel KP will start moving like Boban when he returns. KP moves like a PF and it unfortunately seems he is injury prone.

This was one gamble/long shot that Mark Cuban was counting on, but I don't think KP ultimately will be the wingman for Luka that he thought.
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Re: Around The NBA: 2019-20 RESTART 

Post#547 » by PaKii94 » Sat Aug 29, 2020 2:10 am

DASMACKDOWN wrote:
Read on Twitter


This sucks for KP.

And he is now in Red Flag status. He essentially is a 7'3 Derrick Rose in terms of injuries. ACL tear in left knee, Meniscus tears in Right Knee.

And I know its different for those types of tears based on size and play but I feel KP will start moving like Boban when he returns. KP moves like a PF and it unfortunately seems he is injury prone.

This was one gamble/long shot that Mark Cuban was counting on, but I don't think KP ultimately will be the wingman for Luka that he thought.


I feel bad for him. I wanted to see fully healthy battles between him and Lauri but doesn't seem like we'll get the chance
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Re: Around The NBA: 2019-20 RESTART 

Post#548 » by sco » Sat Aug 29, 2020 1:07 pm

PaKii94 wrote:
DASMACKDOWN wrote:
Read on Twitter


This sucks for KP.

And he is now in Red Flag status. He essentially is a 7'3 Derrick Rose in terms of injuries. ACL tear in left knee, Meniscus tears in Right Knee.

And I know its different for those types of tears based on size and play but I feel KP will start moving like Boban when he returns. KP moves like a PF and it unfortunately seems he is injury prone.

This was one gamble/long shot that Mark Cuban was counting on, but I don't think KP ultimately will be the wingman for Luka that he thought.


I feel bad for him. I wanted to see fully healthy battles between him and Lauri but doesn't seem like we'll get the chance

Yeah, KP is a unicorn, but IMO, too big to stay uninjured for full seasons at a time.
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Re: Around The NBA: 2019-20 RESTART 

Post#549 » by DASMACKDOWN » Sat Aug 29, 2020 1:30 pm

sco wrote:Yeah, KP is a unicorn, but IMO, too big to stay uninjured for full seasons at a time.


That was actually the thought behind the brain trust of the Knicks when they moved him. They thought they were going to get 2 max free agents but they also though he could be an often injured asset.

I do really hope he bounces back really well. The major advantage the Mark Cuban has though, is that Luka is a baby an already a top 5 player.

Even if he doesn't find the perfect players next to Luka in the first 4 years, he has plenty of opportunity. Luka could potentially have 20 years in Dallas if he doesn't get hurt.
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Re: Around The NBA: 2019-20 RESTART 

Post#550 » by kodo » Sat Aug 29, 2020 3:49 pm

I read he was dealing with this since G1. That's not an advisable way to handle someone coming back from an ACL tear, playing through a lateral meniscus tear.

Between this and Zion, building your franchise around a big has been risky. And even if you get a healthy superstar like Anthony Davis, he hasn't been able to carry the Pels due to the limited impact of bigs.

At this rate I wonder how long Wiseman will last. 7' 1" athleticism based leaper.
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Re: Around The NBA: 2019-20 RESTART 

Post#551 » by cjbulls » Sat Aug 29, 2020 4:50 pm

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Re: Around The NBA: 2019-20 RESTART 

Post#552 » by Dresden » Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:17 pm

cjbulls wrote:Uncle Cliffy died. Sad news. Can’t believe he was 53 already.

https://www.blazersedge.com/2020/8/29/21406650/cliff-robinson-death-news-age-history-portland-trail-blazers


Yeah, was surprised to see that as well. Too bad, he was a very good player.
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Re: Around The NBA: 2019-20 RESTART 

Post#553 » by DASMACKDOWN » Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:27 pm

Cliff was ahead of his time when he played. He would be the prototypical PF in todays game. The ideal stretch 4. Not to mention the cool changing of the headbands for each half.
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Re: Around The NBA: 2019-20 RESTART 

Post#554 » by MrSparkle » Sat Aug 29, 2020 9:14 pm

Cliff was great. Great career. Always smiling. One of the first basketball cards I remember getting..thought the headband was so cool. RIP
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Re: Around The NBA: 2019-20 RESTART 

Post#555 » by kodo » Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:14 pm

I'm curious what Orlando does from here. Are they sticking with the current core which seems to be Vucevic/Fournier with Vuc turning 30 nex season, or go with the young guys Isaac / Bamba / Fultz?
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Re: Around The NBA: 2019-20 RESTART 

Post#556 » by dice » Sat Aug 29, 2020 11:01 pm

DASMACKDOWN wrote:
Read on Twitter


This sucks for KP.

And he is now in Red Flag status. He essentially is a 7'3 Derrick Rose in terms of injuries. ACL tear in left knee, Meniscus tears in Right Knee.

And I know its different for those types of tears based on size and play but I feel KP will start moving like Boban when he returns. KP moves like a PF and it unfortunately seems he is injury prone.

This was one gamble/long shot that Mark Cuban was counting on, but I don't think KP ultimately will be the wingman for Luka that he thought.

agreed. it was a foolish gamble on cuban's part. signed KP to a big 5 year deal after luka's impressive rookie season. should have known that luka is a talent that you build smartly around rather than take risky, expensive shots in the dark with. could cost the mavs a title or two
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Re: Around The NBA: 2019-20 RESTART 

Post#557 » by dice » Sat Aug 29, 2020 11:05 pm

cjbulls wrote:Uncle Cliffy died. Sad news. Can’t believe he was 53 already.

https://www.blazersedge.com/2020/8/29/21406650/cliff-robinson-death-news-age-history-portland-trail-blazers

thought you were talking about cliff levingston for a second there
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Re: Around The NBA: 2019-20 RESTART 

Post#558 » by DASMACKDOWN » Sun Aug 30, 2020 1:43 am

dice wrote:agreed. it was a foolish gamble on cuban's part. signed KP to a big 5 year deal after luka's impressive rookie season. should have known that luka is a talent that you build smartly around rather than take risky, expensive shots in the dark with. could cost the mavs a title or two


Well the contract was a foregone conclusion because he didn't have a choice. When he made that deal it was with the intent to go all in.

Essentially the team is locked in for another 2 years. They will have to get really creative with the "others" because Luka is certainly going to get the Derrick Rose max extension in a year. That's probably 160-170+

But like I said, even if KP isn't going to work out as they thought, they will probably find someone else before that contract expires.
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Re: Around The NBA: 2019-20 RESTART 

Post#559 » by MGB8 » Sun Aug 30, 2020 1:51 am

MrSparkle wrote:Cliff was great. Great career. Always smiling. One of the first basketball cards I remember getting..thought the headband was so cool. RIP



Loved his game, and the “always smiling” part jives with my recollection. A positive person who brought joy around him. Damned you, 2020. G-d bless and rest in peace.
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Re: Around The NBA: 2019-20 RESTART 

Post#560 » by MrSparkle » Sun Aug 30, 2020 2:09 am

kodo wrote:I'm curious what Orlando does from here. Are they sticking with the current core which seems to be Vucevic/Fournier with Vuc turning 30 nex season, or go with the young guys Isaac / Bamba / Fultz?


I don't know, but they've really, really, really sucked. What an epitome of tread-milling. 8 seasons of sub-500 and 1 year at 42-40. Zero franchise players. Two highest drafted prospects are perpetually injured.

I like Vuc. Like I've said, I'd trade for him if a low-ball could get it done, but his bubble performance was too solid to bother.

They amazingly have one of the highest pay-rolls next year. IMO they should move on from Gordon, and trade Vuc to the highest bidder. Other than that, they're pretty athletic which is a bright point.

Betsy Devoes is a part-owner. :evil:

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