2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome)

[HarthorneWingo]

If it's going to be a comedian can we just find out where jon stewart is hiding

Stevie Wonder 4 President!

Keith Richards 4 VP

I thought you didn't want to vote for really old white men. Keith is Jurassic old

What are talking about? Where did you get that idea? I voted for Bernie in the Primary in ‘16 and ‘20.

Besides, Bernie and Keef are cool, like me. “Cool” doesn’t have an age limit.

[mpharris36]

I completely agree with you that it is wrong and counter-productive. It pisses me off.

You may recall I was attacked quite visciously in the George Floyd thread because I was the only one who stood up and said don't burn down your bodega, it isn't right. I was called a white supremacist and the enemy of black people and Whitey for sticking my nose into black peoples' anger. FCK THAT! I know right and wrong and I do not believe in By Any Means Necessary until you have exhausted the better options which using the system to ensure legit law and order and bringing bad guys to justice. In that case, the bad guys are the cops. In this case, it may be an arsonist. And both are wrong.

So I'm a big believer in mass protest and I think it will triumph over the present evils which are vastly more dangerous than worrying about the actions of a handful of nihilist destructive aholes who make it hard for everyone.

My point is Trump wants aholes to set fires. Not every one of those arsonists is just a random person, but the opposition creating chaos to stoke the Trump law and order theme. Antifa as an organized threat is BS. End of story AFAIK

I agreed with almost everything you said up until the last point. Trump wants a-holes to set fires to then lobby for leaders of those cities to allow his "agents" to go in a scoop up the anarchist later? That just seems a little wacky to me. The burning cities doesn't shed a positive light on him and that plan "in theory" would only work if he forced his way into those cities. He's literally pleading to come in and help because burnging cities makes him look bad. If he wanted to as Stannis pointed out he could in theory use the Insurrection Act without consent but he hasn't.

I think you are giving trump way too much credit

Your talking to a moderate, let me say he isn't that smart, even if he would like to tell you he is.

i find it interesting that you find this idea far fetched, but subscribe to the antifa big shadow organization conspiracy theory. as robillionaire put so well, the antifa you refer to is merely pockets of people who loosely organize on social media and challenge those they identify to be fascists. and by definition, every american should be anti-fascism and thus antifa.

There is lot of theories behind antifa. Some believe it is a far left group at least the US version. I am not one to believe they are part of any party. And I was mearly calling them antifa for the sake of the name that is being used in the media. We can call them anarchists if you would like. People that want to tear down western civilization. That ultimately is what I oppose.

[Jeff Van Gully]

I agreed with almost everything you said up until the last point. Trump wants a-holes to set fires to then lobby for leaders of those cities to allow his "agents" to go in a scoop up the anarchist later? That just seems a little wacky to me. The burning cities doesn't shed a positive light on him and that plan "in theory" would only work if he forced his way into those cities. He's literally pleading to come in and help because burnging cities makes him look bad. If he wanted to as Stannis pointed out he could in theory use the Insurrection Act without consent but he hasn't.

I think you are giving trump way too much credit

Your talking to a moderate, let me say he isn't that smart, even if he would like to tell you he is.

i find it interesting that you find this idea far fetched, but subscribe to the antifa big shadow organization conspiracy theory. as robillionaire put so well, the antifa you refer to is merely pockets of people who loosely organize on social media and challenge those they identify to be fascists. and by definition, every american should be anti-fascism and thus antifa.

There is lot of theories behind antifa. Some believe it is a far left group at least the US version. I am not one to believe they are part of any party. And I was mearly calling them antifa for the sake of the name that is being used in the media. We can call them anarchists if you would like.

i was more talking about the belief you've expressed that someone is paying people to... antifa?

[Capn'O]

I completely agree with you that it is wrong and counter-productive. It pisses me off.

You may recall I was attacked quite visciously in the George Floyd thread because I was the only one who stood up and said don't burn down your bodega, it isn't right. I was called a white supremacist and the enemy of black people and Whitey for sticking my nose into black peoples' anger. FCK THAT! I know right and wrong and I do not believe in By Any Means Necessary until you have exhausted the better options which using the system to ensure legit law and order and bringing bad guys to justice. In that case, the bad guys are the cops. In this case, it may be an arsonist. And both are wrong.

So I'm a big believer in mass protest and I think it will triumph over the present evils which are vastly more dangerous than worrying about the actions of a handful of nihilist destructive aholes who make it hard for everyone.

My point is Trump wants aholes to set fires. Not every one of those arsonists is just a random person, but the opposition creating chaos to stoke the Trump law and order theme. Antifa as an organized threat is BS. End of story AFAIK

I agreed with almost everything you said up until the last point. Trump wants a-holes to set fires to then lobby for leaders of those cities to allow his "agents" to go in a scoop up the anarchist later? That just seems a little wacky to me. The burning cities doesn't shed a positive light on him and that plan "in theory" would only work if he forced his way into those cities. He's literally pleading to come in and help because burnging cities makes him look bad. If he wanted to as Stannis pointed out he could in theory use the Insurrection Act without consent but he hasn't.

I think you are giving trump way too much credit

Your talking to a moderate, let me say he isn't that smart, even if he would like to tell you he is.

i find it interesting that you find this idea far fetched, but subscribe to the antifa big shadow organization conspiracy theory. as robillionaire put so well, the antifa you refer to is merely pockets of people who loosely organize on social media and challenge those they identify to be fascists. and by definition, every american should be anti-fascism and thus antifa.

Basically. I've been acquainted with people who identify as Antifa and their antecedents through various activities. They're mostly younger people - in their 20s - and instead of going out and drinking or whatever it is people usually do in the evenings before they have a house and kids they meet up on weeknights and plan social action. There are hundreds to thousands of anarchists in every major city. They organize themselves.

I've never had an interest in that style of social action as I believe it's more destructive than helpful but that's who they are.

[Clyde_Style]

Stevie Wonder 4 President!

Keith Richards 4 VP

I thought you didn't want to vote for really old white men. Keith is Jurassic old

What are talking about? Where did you get that idea? I voted for Bernie in the Primary in ‘16 and ‘20.

Besides, Bernie and Keef are cool, like me. “Cool” doesn’t have an age limit.

That's true. Bernie is almost as old as the potato knish Rosie Schwartz dropped under the boardwalk in 1936 that was found 80 years later by a team of archaeologists looking for Jewish artifacts in Brooklyn.

[Clyde_Style]

i find it interesting that you find this idea far fetched, but subscribe to the antifa big shadow organization conspiracy theory. as robillionaire put so well, the antifa you refer to is merely pockets of people who loosely organize on social media and challenge those they identify to be fascists. and by definition, every american should be anti-fascism and thus antifa.

There is lot of theories behind antifa. Some believe it is a far left group at least the US version. I am not one to believe they are part of any party. And I was mearly calling them antifa for the sake of the name that is being used in the media. We can call them anarchists if you would like.

i was more talking about the belief you've expressed that someone is paying people to... antifa?

can we get someone to pay Wingo to...smokereefa?

Spoiler:

[mpharris36]

i find it interesting that you find this idea far fetched, but subscribe to the antifa big shadow organization conspiracy theory. as robillionaire put so well, the antifa you refer to is merely pockets of people who loosely organize on social media and challenge those they identify to be fascists. and by definition, every american should be anti-fascism and thus antifa.

There is lot of theories behind antifa. Some believe it is a far left group at least the US version. I am not one to believe they are part of any party. And I was mearly calling them antifa for the sake of the name that is being used in the media. We can call them anarchists if you would like.

i was more talking about the belief you've expressed that someone is paying people to... antifa?

I mean I believe there has to be some kind of funding it probably isn't from a single source it may be small groups of people that simply that just want the US to burn. I don't see how these teenages or early 20 year olds can be this coordinated to send out of town people in to incite riots and violence.

There is a clear shift from peaceful protest during the day to riots at night. Didn't news just break that the Kenosha police arrested 9 people in 3 suspucious out of state vehicles that they found discovered helmets, gas masks, protective vests, illegal fireworks, and suspected controlled substances.

I'm sure there are a lot of theories and I don't want to confuse myself as an expert on the matter. It may not be as cooridinated as a large group it may just be smaller cell groups that just want to start trouble.

[Clyde_Style]

There is lot of theories behind antifa. Some believe it is a far left group at least the US version. I am not one to believe they are part of any party. And I was mearly calling them antifa for the sake of the name that is being used in the media. We can call them anarchists if you would like.

i was more talking about the belief you've expressed that someone is paying people to... antifa?

I mean I believe there has to be some kind of funding it probably isn't from a single source it may be small groups of people that simply that just want the US to burn. I don't see how these teenages or early 20 year olds can be this coordinated to send out of town people in to incite riots and violence.

There is a clear shift from peaceful protest during the day to riots at night. Didn't news just break that the Kenosha police arrested 9 people in 3 suspucious out of state vehicles that they found discovered helmets, gas masks, protective vests, illegal fireworks, and suspected controlled substances.

I'm sure there are a lot of theories and I don't want to confuse myself as an expert on the matter. It may not be as cooridinated as a large group it may just be smaller cell groups that just want to start trouble.

I'm still waiting for my $3 payment to come in to buy my gasoline

What's the hold up dude?

[Jeff Van Gully]

I agreed with almost everything you said up until the last point. Trump wants a-holes to set fires to then lobby for leaders of those cities to allow his "agents" to go in a scoop up the anarchist later? That just seems a little wacky to me. The burning cities doesn't shed a positive light on him and that plan "in theory" would only work if he forced his way into those cities. He's literally pleading to come in and help because burnging cities makes him look bad. If he wanted to as Stannis pointed out he could in theory use the Insurrection Act without consent but he hasn't.

I think you are giving trump way too much credit

Your talking to a moderate, let me say he isn't that smart, even if he would like to tell you he is.

i find it interesting that you find this idea far fetched, but subscribe to the antifa big shadow organization conspiracy theory. as robillionaire put so well, the antifa you refer to is merely pockets of people who loosely organize on social media and challenge those they identify to be fascists. and by definition, every american should be anti-fascism and thus antifa.

Basically. I've been acquainted with people who identify as Antifa and their antecedents through various activities. They're mostly younger people - in their 20s - and instead of going out and drinking or whatever it is people usually do in the evenings before they have a house and kids they meet up on weeknights and plan social action. There are hundreds to thousands of anarchists in every major city. They organize themselves.

I've never had an interest in that style of social action as I believe it's more destructive than helpful but that's who they are.

yeah. i've known a few myself. most of them actually wouldn't identify as anarchists. i've never attended, but i generally understand and agree with the things they discuss.

that said, i know the ones i've spoken with are different from the ones you've spoken with, and so forth. hence lack of organization and formal anything... let alone an EIN somewhere doing direct deposit. they don't even know each other from town to town because of the level of secrect they feel compelled to move in.

[Capn'O]

i find it interesting that you find this idea far fetched, but subscribe to the antifa big shadow organization conspiracy theory. as robillionaire put so well, the antifa you refer to is merely pockets of people who loosely organize on social media and challenge those they identify to be fascists. and by definition, every american should be anti-fascism and thus antifa.

Basically. I've been acquainted with people who identify as Antifa and their antecedents through various activities. They're mostly younger people - in their 20s - and instead of going out and drinking or whatever it is people usually do in the evenings before they have a house and kids they meet up on weeknights and plan social action. There are hundreds to thousands of anarchists in every major city. They organize themselves.

I've never had an interest in that style of social action as I believe it's more destructive than helpful but that's who they are.

yeah. i've known a few myself. most of them actually wouldn't identify as anarchists. i've never attended, but i generally understand and agree with the things they discuss.

that said, i know the ones i've spoken with are different from the ones you've spoken with, and so forth. hence lack of organization and formal anything... let alone an EIN somewhere doing direct deposit. they don't even know each other from town to town because of the level of secrect they feel compelled to move in.

Most of my knowledge is from social action groups at my college and granted that was more than five years ago now

Spoiler:

and also more than fifteen

but it's still the same idea and basic actors. It does seem the groups have radicalized in terms of usage of violence now from then. Which, of course, isn't good. I basically don't go to protests anymore because those groups deliberately put others at risk trying to loop them into their methods. I'm seeing it now as well.

But they also get things moving (especially the less violent versions) so that's the song and dance I was talking about before.

[Jeff Van Gully]

There is lot of theories behind antifa. Some believe it is a far left group at least the US version. I am not one to believe they are part of any party. And I was mearly calling them antifa for the sake of the name that is being used in the media. We can call them anarchists if you would like.

i was more talking about the belief you've expressed that someone is paying people to... antifa?

I mean I believe there has to be some kind of funding it probably isn't from a single source it may be small groups of people that simply that just want the US to burn. I don't see how these teenages or early 20 year olds can be this coordinated to send out of town people in to incite riots and violence.

There is a clear shift from peaceful protest during the day to riots at night. Didn't news just break that the Kenosha police arrested 9 people in 3 suspucious out of state vehicles that they found discovered helmets, gas masks, protective vests, illegal fireworks, and suspected controlled substances.

I'm sure there are a lot of theories and I don't want to confuse myself as an expert on the matter. It may not be as cooridinated as a large group it may just be smaller cell groups that just want to start trouble.

violence at protests comes from everything from antifa to angry individuals to moments of agitation that blow up. but people want a quick, easy explanation for things. i believe that's part of why it's so easy to lock in on this antifa narrative. it MUST be coming from SOME kind of organization, right? something conspiratory has to be the reason for what i'm seeing on TV.

i can tell you given the rage i experience from the injustice i face in life (which we have personally discussed), it's a marvel i haven't every been violent in protest. it's a marvel i haven't destroyed myself and others. i completely understand how easily it can happen at even the individual level. people spend far too much energy on the demonstration and nowhere near enough on the why (which we have also discussed). it's very easy to say, "oh, no. violence so bad. protest like THIS! i'm most comfortable if you protest like THAT." it requires a lifelong commitment to say, "let's get down to what's causing these scenarios and handle them with respect."

edit: i am speaking generally, not targeting you, mpharris.

[Jeff Van Gully]

Basically. I've been acquainted with people who identify as Antifa and their antecedents through various activities. They're mostly younger people - in their 20s - and instead of going out and drinking or whatever it is people usually do in the evenings before they have a house and kids they meet up on weeknights and plan social action. There are hundreds to thousands of anarchists in every major city. They organize themselves.

I've never had an interest in that style of social action as I believe it's more destructive than helpful but that's who they are.

yeah. i've known a few myself. most of them actually wouldn't identify as anarchists. i've never attended, but i generally understand and agree with the things they discuss.

that said, i know the ones i've spoken with are different from the ones you've spoken with, and so forth. hence lack of organization and formal anything... let alone an EIN somewhere doing direct deposit. they don't even know each other from town to town because of the level of secrect they feel compelled to move in.

Most of my knowledge is from social action groups at my college and granted that was more than five years ago now

Spoiler:

and also more than fifteen

but it's still the same idea and basic actors. It does seem the groups have radicalized in terms of usage of violence now from then. Which, of course, isn't good. I basically don't go to protests anymore because those groups deliberately put others at risk trying to loop them into their methods. I'm seeing it now as well.

But they also get things moving (especially the less violent versions) so that's the song and dance I was talking about before.

i see. yeah, i'm out of touch with the younger crop too. lol. none of my examples are younger than 35 today. i recognize i am on the outside of a lot and am trying to balance learning with not ingesting too much poison and vitriol online that fuels the rage i mentioned in my last post.

[mpharris36]

i was more talking about the belief you've expressed that someone is paying people to... antifa?

I mean I believe there has to be some kind of funding it probably isn't from a single source it may be small groups of people that simply that just want the US to burn. I don't see how these teenages or early 20 year olds can be this coordinated to send out of town people in to incite riots and violence.

There is a clear shift from peaceful protest during the day to riots at night. Didn't news just break that the Kenosha police arrested 9 people in 3 suspucious out of state vehicles that they found discovered helmets, gas masks, protective vests, illegal fireworks, and suspected controlled substances.

I'm sure there are a lot of theories and I don't want to confuse myself as an expert on the matter. It may not be as cooridinated as a large group it may just be smaller cell groups that just want to start trouble.

violence at protests comes from everything from antifa to angry individuals to moments of agitation that blow up. but people want a quick, easy explanation for things. i believe that's part of why it's so easy to lock in on this antifa narrative. it MUST be coming from SOME kind of organization, right? something conspiratory has to be the reason for what i'm seeing on TV.

i can tell you given the rage i experience from the injustice i face in life (which we have personally discussed), it's a marvel i haven't every been violent in protest. it's a marvel i haven't destroyed myself and others. i completely understand how easily it can happen at even the individual level. people spend far too much energy on the demonstration and nowhere near enough on the why (which we have also discussed). it's very easy to say, "oh, no. violence so bad. protest like THIS! i'm most comfortable if you protest like THAT." it requires a lifelong commitment to say, "let's get down to what's causing these scenarios and handle them with respect."

I hear ya JVG. I am not even suggesting protestors can't have rage. But there are plenty of clips and even some protestors that want nothing to do with the people that are inciting violence and riots.

For most of the people protesting they live in these areas...I don't think most of them want to burn down there own places and businesses. The looting is tough to justify but I can totally understand peoples anger and being fed up. That we are 100% aligned with.

I'm specifically referencing the people that come in from out of state that have no other intenction other than to create anarchy. So while personally I haven't been witness to those personal moments you have provided me between the two of us. I can sympathize with a level of frustration and rage you may have. And I don't take any offense btw for you educating me about your experiences. Its learning and I think that is powerful. So I appreciate that and you for sharing!

[bishnykfan]

Basically. I've been acquainted with people who identify as Antifa and their antecedents through various activities. They're mostly younger people - in their 20s - and instead of going out and drinking or whatever it is people usually do in the evenings before they have a house and kids they meet up on weeknights and plan social action. There are hundreds to thousands of anarchists in every major city. They organize themselves.

I've never had an interest in that style of social action as I believe it's more destructive than helpful but that's who they are.

yeah. i've known a few myself. most of them actually wouldn't identify as anarchists. i've never attended, but i generally understand and agree with the things they discuss.

that said, i know the ones i've spoken with are different from the ones you've spoken with, and so forth. hence lack of organization and formal anything... let alone an EIN somewhere doing direct deposit. they don't even know each other from town to town because of the level of secrect they feel compelled to move in.

Most of my knowledge is from social action groups at my college and granted that was more than five years ago now

Spoiler:

and also more than fifteen

but it's still the same idea and basic actors. It does seem the groups have radicalized in terms of usage of violence now from then. Which, of course, isn't good. I basically don't go to protests anymore because those groups deliberately put others at risk trying to loop them into their methods. I'm seeing it now as well.

But they also get things moving (especially the less violent versions) so that's the song and dance I was talking about before.

Whoever the groups are that are robbing and looting, destroying businesses, violently attacking people or disturbing people at their homes/workplaces or hurting people, whether it is right or left, antifa or anarchists, organized or not, funded or not, etc...why has it been allowed to go on for so long? Why aren't the local leaders differentiating between the peaceful daytime protests and what seems to happen at night?

[robillionaire]

someone needs to tell soros he owes me a great deal of backpay

[mpharris36]

yeah. i've known a few myself. most of them actually wouldn't identify as anarchists. i've never attended, but i generally understand and agree with the things they discuss.

that said, i know the ones i've spoken with are different from the ones you've spoken with, and so forth. hence lack of organization and formal anything... let alone an EIN somewhere doing direct deposit. they don't even know each other from town to town because of the level of secrect they feel compelled to move in.

Most of my knowledge is from social action groups at my college and granted that was more than five years ago now

Spoiler:

and also more than fifteen

but it's still the same idea and basic actors. It does seem the groups have radicalized in terms of usage of violence now from then. Which, of course, isn't good. I basically don't go to protests anymore because those groups deliberately put others at risk trying to loop them into their methods. I'm seeing it now as well.

But they also get things moving (especially the less violent versions) so that's the song and dance I was talking about before.

Whoever the groups are that are robbing and looting, destroying businesses, violently attacking people or disturbing people at their homes/workplaces or hurting people, whether it is right or left, antifa or anarchists, organized or not, funded or not, etc...why has it been allowed to go on for so long? Why aren't the local leaders differentiating between the peaceful daytime protests and what seems to happen at night?

what got me was that one caption grab. fiery but mostly peaceful protest with the city burning behind him.

[Capn'O]

yeah. i've known a few myself. most of them actually wouldn't identify as anarchists. i've never attended, but i generally understand and agree with the things they discuss.

that said, i know the ones i've spoken with are different from the ones you've spoken with, and so forth. hence lack of organization and formal anything... let alone an EIN somewhere doing direct deposit. they don't even know each other from town to town because of the level of secrect they feel compelled to move in.

Most of my knowledge is from social action groups at my college and granted that was more than five years ago now

Spoiler:

and also more than fifteen

but it's still the same idea and basic actors. It does seem the groups have radicalized in terms of usage of violence now from then. Which, of course, isn't good. I basically don't go to protests anymore because those groups deliberately put others at risk trying to loop them into their methods. I'm seeing it now as well.

But they also get things moving (especially the less violent versions) so that's the song and dance I was talking about before.

Whoever the groups are that are robbing and looting, destroying businesses, violently attacking people or disturbing people at their homes/workplaces or hurting people, whether it is right or left, antifa or anarchists, organized or not, funded or not, etc...why has it been allowed to go on for so long? Why aren't the local leaders differentiating between the peaceful daytime protests and what seems to happen at night?

I would argue that that's not true

There have been plenty of curfews, tear gas used, arrests etc. The more violent ones also move with less violent ones. There's a whole song and dance that goes on.

It's a tough sell when you hit some 45 year old soccer mom in the head with a rubber bullet regardless of the intention of the action.

[robillionaire]

yeah. i've known a few myself. most of them actually wouldn't identify as anarchists. i've never attended, but i generally understand and agree with the things they discuss.

that said, i know the ones i've spoken with are different from the ones you've spoken with, and so forth. hence lack of organization and formal anything... let alone an EIN somewhere doing direct deposit. they don't even know each other from town to town because of the level of secrect they feel compelled to move in.

Most of my knowledge is from social action groups at my college and granted that was more than five years ago now

Spoiler:

and also more than fifteen

but it's still the same idea and basic actors. It does seem the groups have radicalized in terms of usage of violence now from then. Which, of course, isn't good. I basically don't go to protests anymore because those groups deliberately put others at risk trying to loop them into their methods. I'm seeing it now as well.

But they also get things moving (especially the less violent versions) so that's the song and dance I was talking about before.

Whoever the groups are that are robbing and looting, destroying businesses, violently attacking people or disturbing people at their homes/workplaces or hurting people, whether it is right or left, antifa or anarchists, organized or not, funded or not, etc...why has it been allowed to go on for so long? Why aren't the local leaders differentiating between the peaceful daytime protests and what seems to happen at night?

I think it's just a myth to say that they have been allowed to go on when any demonstration peaceful or not has been facing off with riot cops on a consistent basis, and with few exceptions like the first night of riots it has been police who has instigated the confrontations mostly on people sitting around or occupying a space after they declare it an illegal gathering or put in place a bogus curfew to justify breaking it up. If you ever see something that looks like it's unopposed it's only because the cops decided to pull a tactical strategic retreat until they could kettle smaller groups. I know you would like them to use live ammo on the protesters. But that would just martyr them in the eyes of the world, and you better believe the world is watching. They don't want the optics of a Tienanmen.

[bishnykfan]

Most of my knowledge is from social action groups at my college and granted that was more than five years ago now

Spoiler:

and also more than fifteen

but it's still the same idea and basic actors. It does seem the groups have radicalized in terms of usage of violence now from then. Which, of course, isn't good. I basically don't go to protests anymore because those groups deliberately put others at risk trying to loop them into their methods. I'm seeing it now as well.

But they also get things moving (especially the less violent versions) so that's the song and dance I was talking about before.

Whoever the groups are that are robbing and looting, destroying businesses, violently attacking people or disturbing people at their homes/workplaces or hurting people, whether it is right or left, antifa or anarchists, organized or not, funded or not, etc...why has it been allowed to go on for so long? Why aren't the local leaders differentiating between the peaceful daytime protests and what seems to happen at night?

I would argue that that's not true

There have been plenty of curfews, tear gas used, arrests etc. The more violent ones also move with less violent ones. There's a whole song and dance that goes on.

It's a tough sell when you hit some 45 year old soccer mom in the head with a rubber bullet regardless of the intention of the action.

I agree with the second part completely..and you're out there so I will defer to you on what happened there. I can only go by what I see on Twitter or online when it comes to Portland. I get that the federal law enforcement may have amped things up in that situation. But the Seattle mayor encouraged the lawlessness. The Chicago mayor has been negligent and allowed her city to be torn apart through riots and actual countless shootings. And then bans actual protesting on her own street? Not rioting, but protests are banned on her street. She has a right to security that the people she is supposed to work for and protect above all, have none? I don't live in NYC but I have family that do. I'm close enough and know enough people that work there to see what has happened in NYC.

If Trump wants chaos and rioting and if he's running on law and order, then wouldn't it make sense for these Democratic mayors and governors to quell these riots quickly? If not for their citizens and businesses then to give one less thing for Trump to campaign on?

From what I've seen tear gas is not used until after the riots have been declared. Curfews are not enforced. Arrests are meaningless when the rioter/looter/vandal know that they will be out that night. Just doesn't add up IMO.

[bishnykfan]

Most of my knowledge is from social action groups at my college and granted that was more than five years ago now

Spoiler:

and also more than fifteen

but it's still the same idea and basic actors. It does seem the groups have radicalized in terms of usage of violence now from then. Which, of course, isn't good. I basically don't go to protests anymore because those groups deliberately put others at risk trying to loop them into their methods. I'm seeing it now as well.

But they also get things moving (especially the less violent versions) so that's the song and dance I was talking about before.

Whoever the groups are that are robbing and looting, destroying businesses, violently attacking people or disturbing people at their homes/workplaces or hurting people, whether it is right or left, antifa or anarchists, organized or not, funded or not, etc...why has it been allowed to go on for so long? Why aren't the local leaders differentiating between the peaceful daytime protests and what seems to happen at night?

I think it's just a myth to say that they have been allowed to go on when any demonstration peaceful or not has been facing off with riot cops on a consistent basis, and with few exceptions like the first night of riots it has been police who has instigated the confrontations mostly on people sitting around or occupying a space after they declare it an illegal gathering or put in place a bogus curfew to justify breaking it up. If you ever see something that looks like it's unopposed it's only because the cops decided to pull a tactical strategic retreat until they could kettle smaller groups. I know you would like them to use live ammo on the protesters. But that would just martyr them in the eyes of the world, and you better believe the world is watching. They don't want the optics of a Tienanmen.

If you think that I want the police to use live ammo on protestors than you don't know much about me or anything that I stand for. I'll assume that was a generic "you" and not directed at me. I responded to the question of how Trump can run as a law and order candidate. As an independent voter, I thought maybe I could play devils advocate and tell you how it looks from an "outsiders" vantage point. When you watch the local news and see murders rising, cities burning, looting, fighting, people being harassed at their homes, places of business, etc...it's easy to see why so many people would want to hear a leader telling them that they are for law enforcement. If it's right leaning or left leaning "protestors" that are destroying cities, makes no difference. My problem is with the local officials who have the power to put an end to the violence.