2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome)

[BallSacBounce]

I believe this year is different in that people arent taking polls for granted this time around. As of right now, we know nothing. I think the debates is the time to start paying attention to the polls. For now, they're just a conversation piece.

Exactly. And I could point to a poll that shows Trump ahead nationally, Trump ahead in battleground states and headed to a resounding electoral college victory by the same outfit that predicted his 2016 win and also predicted Brexit another one everyone else git wrong but what's the point? Lots and lots will change between now and then. The riots are an explosive issue and IMO no one knows where the fallout will ultimately land.

[BallSacBounce]

Read on Twitter

I look forward to Trump's Tuesday rebuttal. Right Biden, like this is all Trump's fault. Bold strategy cotton, let's see how it works out fer ya.

[Clyde_Style]

This is exactly the moment to not buy into the propaganda being pushed by the right and spreading bad information and false ideas.

Trump is rallying his militia supporters BECAUSE he is so far behind. He wants you to be afraid. He wants people to actually debate whether or not he is going to capture the law and order vote. It is all desperation from a man whose only strategy has been to keep his name on the tip of your tongue by any means necessary.

The convention didn't help him so this is all he has now which is inciting violence and hoping it makes people afraid enough to vote for him. That's it. That's his whole strategy and I see people going along with it by even suggesting there is any credibility to a debate about who is provoking unrest.

Does Trump disavow the militias? No, he posts on Twitter that they are great patriots.

He is inciting insurrection and civil war which has absolutely nothing to do with the successes and failures of local governance, because Trump is not doing anything to improve any situation. He only wants to fan the flames of unrest because it allows him to take control as long as enough Americans concede that talking point to him.

Shut down these ideas that it is OK to circumvent states rights, to violate habeous corpus, to attack peaceful demonstrators just because there are a distinct minority of troublemakers.

Trump getting any of you to actually debate whether or not it is a mayor's fault is his way to steer the conversation away from the root causes of unrest which is cops putting seven bullets into a black man with his back turned in front of his family in broad daylight.

So you may be voting Biden, but if you really think these convos are not the trickle down effect desired by Trump, again I think some of you are unwittingly forwarding the right's agenda unintentionally. Being well-meaning and respectful is great, but not at the cost of calling things as they are and not compromising on the principles of resistance which will be eroded if you become part of a national conversation being steered towards validating Trump's law and order clampdown agenda.

Fascists want you to have those civil conversations to keep the meme fresh and keep the door open in peoples' minds so they can be swayed when one incident occurs designed to move people to their side of the ledger. You promote that faux notion of being open-minded and they've won their gambit. That's the game, getting you to debate whose fault it is. Why not cut to the chase and say it straight up, because allowing this kind of stuff to descend into over-complicated dissections serves only to push the convo in the direction of the right propadandists.

Protests and Riots are occurring because cops are executing black men. FULL STOP. Let's not complicate that.

Most Protestors are non-violent. A minority break stuff and even fewer set fires. Some of those are false flags vandals working for the right to misdirect blame to the left. AGREED? OK

Trump sent in unmarked combat forces in unmarked vehicles who proceeded to attacked unarmed and peaceful demonstrators and abduct people into vans. In other words, Trump sending in troops was not to quell unrest but to provoke more and to instill fear in the public.

If Trump had ever, even once, shown anything he is doing was designed to bring peace and calm to American cities, then maybe you'd have a basis for debating who is to blame, but as long as you have a fascist president who goads on Nazis to show up in armadas with guns I don't see how haggling over the failings of mayors who happen to be Democrat advances the discussion one bit.

Trump is the overriding problem and unrest will accelerate and grow and mayhem will rule as long as his remains in office. I don't think anyone who would disagree with that assertion to be at all credible which is why I reject these convos about who is to blame, regardless of the sincerity over being civil and respectful.

It is still in bad faith that these arguments are made, because they try to bypass the root causes and pre-dominant issues now and for as long as Trump remains in power. He is the problem and the cops will remain a major problem as long as he remains in office. And that means unrest will continue regardless of who the damn mayor is.

[BallSacBounce]

Are there any Trump supporters here other than BallSac?

There's apparently 9 of them according to our RealGM polls.

I have some guesses, but don't want to turn this thread into "Who are the Trump supporters"

I just seems like the only person we're debating with here is BallSac.

Most will not bother when the default response is name calling like Nazi etc etc. You will see us in November.

And people don't think there is a secret Trump vote. Wow. Trump Supporters are doxxed, they try to get us fired from our jobs, they physically attack us and people expect them to answer honestly when some random calls them up. Yeah ok.

[GONYK]

Watch on YouTube

[Stannis]

Watch on YouTube

I fully expect him to designate BLM as a terrorist organization if he's reelected. He's not saying it out loud because it will throw away his reelection. But that's kind of the unspoken agreement between him and his voters.

Hopefully everyone sees it and votes him out.

[Clyde_Style]

Watch on YouTube

I fully expect him to designate BLM as a terrorist organization if he's reelected. He's not saying it out loud because it will throw away his reelection. But that's kind of the unspoken agreement between him and his voters.

Hopefully everyone sees it and votes him out.

Yes, that's a good read on Trump. Highly likely he would do that

[Oscirus]

Watch on YouTube

I fully expect him to designate BLM as a terrorist organization if he's reelected. He's not saying it out loud because it will throw away his reelection. But that's kind of the unspoken agreement between him and his voters.

Hopefully everyone sees it and votes him out.

They've made that extremely clear at the rnc. Keep the blacks out of the suburbs and end blm

[HarthorneWingo]

There's apparently 9 of them according to our RealGM polls.

I have some guesses, but don't want to turn this thread into "Who are the Trump supporters"

I just seems like the only person we're debating with here is BallSac.

Most will not bother when the default response is name calling like Nazi etc etc. You will see us in November.

And people don't think there is a secret Trump vote. Wow. Trump Supporters are doxxed, they try to get us fired from our jobs, they physically attack us and people expect them to answer honestly when some random calls them up. Yeah ok.

I never called you any names. Though I do think Trump is a fascist.

I don't think there's a secret vote. I think the there's an electoral problem based on previous gerrymandering which is the only way he can win. I betcha Trump losses the popular vote again.

I agree that Trump has the enthusiasm adavantage which is important. Trump's base is much more stoked for him than the Democrat base is for Biden. I think Trump stands a good chance of winning.

[BallSacBounce]

I just seems like the only person we're debating with here is BallSac.

Most will not bother when the default response is name calling like Nazi etc etc. You will see us in November.

And people don't think there is a secret Trump vote. Wow. Trump Supporters are doxxed, they try to get us fired from our jobs, they physically attack us and people expect them to answer honestly when some random calls them up. Yeah ok.

I never called you any names. Though I do think Trump is a fascist.

I don't think there's a secret vote. I think the there's an electoral problem based on previous gerrymandering which is the only way he can win. I betcha Trump losses the popular vote again.

I agree that Trump has the enthusiasm adavantage which is important. Trump's base is much more stoked for him than the Democrat base is for Biden. I think Trump stands a good chance of winning.

You've never called me any names Wingo. I appreciate that more than you can know. Sorry about a prior post where I said something about a low iq response. I really didn't mean it the way it sounded buddy. More like that was along the lines of something unexpected and I was alerting you that it wasn't thought through. My bad though all the way.

If Trump was a fascist it would be easy enough to show it with his overwhelming federal response to the riots. Which he hasn't done. He would not allow dissent, dissent is all over. He would demand more federal control while his actions have been the opposite. He is terrible at the fascist thing.

Wingo I am telling you there is absolutely 100 percent a "shy" Trump supporter. YMMV and all that fair enough. But the threats to our existence are very real and that will cause a turtle reaction.

I talk to people, a lot of them. I've been in sales all my life. I have friends, people I care about that have very different perspectives on politics. One very close friend that I have diametrically opposed political viewpoints with told me I had to denounce Trump to continue the friendship. Not happening.

We continued the friendship however it is not the same. I do not tell my formerly close friend my political viewpoints anymore. We dance around them. I have covered them up because he thinks I need to conform to connect and I haven't asked him to do the same because I do not.

I'm sorry but you really have no idea what we go through. You will see. The wreckage the left has wrought will be dealt with at the polls. The only ones that matter, the election itself.

[BKlutch]

I believe this year is different in that people arent taking polls for granted this time around. As of right now, we know nothing. I think the debates is the time to start paying attention to the polls. For now, they're just a conversation piece.

I have a strong inclination Trump will skip the debates and look to weasel out of them. Does this sound like someone confident about speaking to his record?

Read on Twitter

Trump is just doing here what he's doing to the election as a whole: He's trying to muddy the waters and set the narrative so if he loses, the loss will come under question from his supporters.

So if Trump loses the debate badly, he can say Biden had an advantage, because Biden's drug-addled brain is a much more effective debater and uses more coherent logic than his own, drug-free brain. It's fixed! Right?
Edit: Or blame Hillary.

[GONYK]

Read on Twitter

?s=19

If this is a preview of Trump's address, it's a very bad plan.

[Clyde_Style]

Read on Twitter

?s=19

If this is a preview of Trump's address, it's a very bad plan.

Ron Johnson is a Trump succubus, but even knowing that what he's saying is beyond the pale and scary. It's amazing how the GOP has almost completely surrendered their souls to outright thuggery.

I do hope this is what they keep saying though, because I can't see how the idea of overwhelming protestors with citizen soldiers computes with anyone who has a shred of respect left for our constitution and civil rights.

When Trump gassed the protestors at the WH for a photo op, he lost tons of military support. This type of rhetoric is going to harden the divide between who will resist fascism and who will go along with it.

If a hundred former military brass have already come out and said this against Trump it is because they are the front men for currently serving military leadership who understandably don't want to tip their hand to Trump in the event they need to take action against him.

[Clyde_Style]

Read on Twitter

You vote for Trump you support people like this

[Clyde_Style]

The Governor of Wisconsin has formally requested that Trump NOT visit Kenosha

[GONYK]

The Governor of Wisconsin has formally requested that Trump NOT visit Kenosha

Read on Twitter

?s=19

[Clyde_Style]

Read on Twitter

[HarthorneWingo]

The following is an email I got from Bernie Sanders/newsletter. So I don't want to here any @/*&%^$!> from anybody if Biden loses, okay?

Dear Friends,

Yes. These are crazy times. We're dealing with a pandemic, an economic meltdown, the struggle for racial justice and we're seeing the destruction caused by climate change in Iowa, California, Louisiana and Texas.

But, in the midst of all of this, we have got to remain focused, focused, focused. In 65 days the most important election in modern American history will be taking place and we have got to defeat Donald Trump. We have got to defeat him not only because he is a pathological liar, because he rejects science and because he is a racist and a xenophobe. We have got to defeat him because he is undermining American democracy and is rapidly moving this country into an authoritarian type of society, something we may never recover from.

In terms of defeating Trump, one of the issues that has not gotten the attention that it deserves is the real contrast that exists between Trump's economic agenda and the economic proposals being supported by Joe Biden. At a time when our country is struggling with the worst economic meltdown since the great depression, this is an issue of enormous consequence for tens of millions of working class families.

Let me be clear. Biden's economic agenda is not mine and does not go as far as I, and many of you, wish it would. But, on the other hand, at a time of massive and growing income and wealth inequality there is no question but that his proposals are strong and will go a long, long way toward improving life for working families.

Yesterday, I made an important speech about this issue on our social media channels. Let me summarize here what I said about Joe's plans for the economy.

Minimum Wage
When Joe Biden is president, he will increase the federal minimum wage from a starvation wage of $7.25 an hour to a living wage of $15 an hour. And let’s be clear: When we increase that minimum wage to $15 an hour we will be raising the wages of more than 40 million workers.

Unions
Joe Biden also knows that if we are going to expand the middle class in this country, we must make it easier for workers to join unions, engage in collective bargaining and end the heavy-handed corporate tactics that make it hard for workers to unionize in America.

Infrastructure
And here's something else that Joe Biden understands. And that is that, in the midst of the worst economic crisis in our lifetimes, we need to create millions of good-paying jobs through a massive investment in rebuilding our crumbling infrastructure — our roads, bridges, sidewalks, schools, water systems and affordable housing.

Paid Family and Medical Leave
Like most of us, Joe Biden is embarrassed that the United States is the only major nation on earth not to guarantee paid medical and family leave. That’s why Joe has proposed at least 12 weeks of paid family and medical leave for working families.

Childcare
And when we talk about babies and young children, we all know that our current childcare system is totally inadequate. Our children and their parents deserve high-quality, reliable and affordable childcare. That’s why Joe has proposed universal pre-K education for every 3- and 4-year-old in the country.

Colleges
And when we talk about making sure that we have the best educated workforce in the world, Joe understands that we need to make public colleges, universities and trade schools tuition-free for working families.

Prescription Drugs
As some of you may recall, last year I traveled to Canada with a group of diabetics to buy insulin, a life and death drug for more than 30 million Americans. And here's what we found. You can buy insulin in Canada, a few miles from our border, for 1/10th the price that it is sold here. No. You didn't mishear me. The same product, made by the same company, is sold for 1/10th the price that it's sold here. But it's not just Canada and it’s not just insulin. While the drug companies, through their collusion, price fixing and greed, make obscene profits, we pay by far the highest prices in the world for prescription drugs. Joe Biden understands that we must take on the pharmaceutical industry and significantly lower drug prices in this country.

Health Care
As many of you know the United States is the only major country not to guarantee health care for all people. Meanwhile, despite paying almost twice as much per capita for health care as the people of other countries, over 90 million Americans are uninsured or underinsured and over half a million Americans go bankrupt because they cannot afford to pay their medical bills.

While Joe and I disagree on the best path to get to universal coverage, his proposal will greatly expand access to health care and make it more affordable for tens of millions across this country.

My friends, of course many of us wish our campaign would have won the Democratic primary. But now our first priority must be to defeat Donald Trump, the most dangerous president in modern American history.

Then, on Day 1 of the Biden administration, we will mobilize the working families of this country to demand a government that represents all of us and not just the few.

So I am asking you today to do something important — because Donald Trump and the Republican Party would love nothing more than to divide our supporters up as people start to vote. And the truth is, the corporate media would love nothing more than to write stories about how we are not united in the fight to beat Trump.

So I am asking:

Add your name: help me send a message that you are committed to voting to defeat Donald Trump this November. This is important.

We live in the wealthiest nation in the history of the world, but that reality means very little because almost all of that wealth is controlled by a tiny handful of individuals.

This November we take the first step to turn that around and to create a government that works for all of us, and not just the 1 percent.

In solidarity,

Bernie Sanders

[HarthorneWingo]

Most will not bother when the default response is name calling like Nazi etc etc. You will see us in November.

And people don't think there is a secret Trump vote. Wow. Trump Supporters are doxxed, they try to get us fired from our jobs, they physically attack us and people expect them to answer honestly when some random calls them up. Yeah ok.

I never called you any names. Though I do think Trump is a fascist.

I don't think there's a secret vote. I think the there's an electoral problem based on previous gerrymandering which is the only way he can win. I betcha Trump losses the popular vote again.

I agree that Trump has the enthusiasm adavantage which is important. Trump's base is much more stoked for him than the Democrat base is for Biden. I think Trump stands a good chance of winning.

You've never called me any names Wingo. I appreciate that more than you can know. Sorry about a prior post where I said something about a low iq response. I really didn't mean it the way it sounded buddy. More like that was along the lines of something unexpected and I was alerting you that it wasn't thought through. My bad though all the way.

If Trump was a fascist it would be easy enough to show it with his overwhelming federal response to the riots. Which he hasn't done. He would not allow dissent, dissent is all over. He would demand more federal control while his actions have been the opposite. He is terrible at the fascist thing.

Wingo I am telling you there is absolutely 100 percent a "shy" Trump supporter. YMMV and all that fair enough. But the threats to our existence are very real and that will cause a turtle reaction.

I talk to people, a lot of them. I've been in sales all my life. I have friends, people I care about that have very different perspectives on politics. One very close friend that I have diametrically opposed political viewpoints with told me I had to denounce Trump to continue the friendship. Not happening.

We continued the friendship however it is not the same. I do not tell my formerly close friend my political viewpoints anymore. We dance around them. I have covered them up because he thinks I need to conform to connect and I haven't asked him to do the same because I do not.

I'm sorry but you really have no idea what we go through. You will see. The wreckage the left has wrought will be dealt with at the polls. The only ones that matter, the election itself.

Admittedly, it's difficult when you developed friendships from the past before political beliefs were formed and then you find out that you operate on two different sets of socio-economic perspectives. All I can say is that it is difficult to lose friendships because of closely held political beliefs. I'm been on both sides of it.

So where do you stand on the following issues. Does your business experience effect your political perspective? Do you think that businesspeople as opposed to, let's say, lawyers, should run the country? How about these issues:

1. Climate change/Green New Deal/energy conversion, etc.?

2. Income inequality/tax increases on the top 1% and corporations; wealth tax; and a marginal income tax on incomes over $_______________ million?

3. Police reform? E.g., (a) transferring money from the PD to mental health/social work in order to address incidents involving that demographic; (b) replacing a certain percentage of street officers with unarmed traffic safety officers?

4. Foreign policy? Military withdrawal from the Middle East and replace with strategic diplomacy through allies and UN while reducing our footprint there. Withdraw economic support from countries that are unwilling to cooperate with American interests.

5. Reducing the Defense budget? We can save so much money here without sacrificing our safety and security.

6. Free state college tuition/tuition debt forgiveness? One of the greatest periods in the growth of the middle class came as a result of the GI Bill after WWII.

7. Abortion rights.

8. Marijuana legalization.

And, btw, it's not all doom and gloom for your Trump supporters.

[HarthorneWingo]

When I keep playing around with the maps, I think it might come down to Wisconsin.

I think Minnesota is Trump country in 2020 tbh.

If you want to play with maps that's your prerogative. But you've been posting assertions that Trump will probably take this state and that state and Biden will win this one and lose that one and the totals will be this number.

Playing with maps does not warrant posting the kinds of predictions you've been making. Adding up a dozen separate things happening the way you think they MIGHT occur does not add up to a predictable sum total and a credible prediction.

You have to start doing it sometime. We're just 65 days from the election. When do you propose we begin looking seriously at the polls?