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NBA games postponed today p14 Players decide to resume Playoffs

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Re: NBA games postponed today p14 Players decide to resume Playoffs 

Post#541 » by musiqsoulchild » Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:52 pm

Chi town wrote:
musiqsoulchild wrote:
dougthonus wrote:

https://nypost.com/2020/08/13/blm-organizer-who-called-looting-reparations-doubles-down/
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/aug/11/ariel-atkins-blm-chicago-organizer-says-looting-is/

This is one of the organizers of the movement. Encouraging criminal and violent behavior, suggesting that only violent revolt will solve this problem.

So this isn't just a few stray incidents. This is the black lives matter organization calling for revolution, endorsing criminal conduct on innocents, etc.. This isn't just some rando that showed up here or an accidental slip of people going a little too far.



Reading the above links, there is absolutely a part of this movement that I believe goes way too far.


I have seen this video before. There are others like that.

There are some who believe BLM should be used to eradicate Latin gangs from Chicago.

I dont condone ANY of that.

Again, every major movement has a few nefarious people under the umbrella of the movement.

That doesnt delegitimize the movement. It shouldn't. If it does, it does. But it shouldnt.


Have you been to any protests? I’ve been to 4. One with my son and 3 by myself. One turned violent quick and stuff got crazy. I personally saw plenty of white people stirring the pot and antagonizing and none of them seemed to be for Justice. Didn’t say justice chants or carry signs. Just screamed a lot and were aggressive.

If you think this isn’t organized I don’t know what to tell you as Doug cited above.

The left and BLM needs to demand a stop to violence and looting just like MLK did consistently... and he was criticized for it a lot.

The right needs to recognize and name racism and support police reform.

Militias are INSANE! We know traditionally what type of people join these... let’s just say they aren’t marching w BLM. National Guard has to be sent in before the demonstrations happen. Not after it gets out of hand.

NBA absolutely should have suspended Harrel for his slur against Luka too. Luka says anything about race to him and you know he’s suspended. Racism itself can not be tolerated. The same for all hate speech.


Ironically, I have been to 3 with my 6 year old son.

All, very powerful. And very peaceful.

All, organized by NAACP.
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Re: NBA games postponed today p14 Players decide to resume Playoffs 

Post#542 » by Chi town » Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:54 pm

MrSparkle wrote:
dougthonus wrote:
musiqsoulchild wrote:Nope they dont.

Ultimately, if the Cops used resources from local areas...then they are responsible for the blowback that comes from it.

I guarantee you that there will be phone calls and an electronic trail of communication linking Militia members to the Cops leading upto that event and after that event.

The WORST thing is that Kyle went all the way back to Antioch and then only after social media showed up and did its thing surrendered himself.

That's all choreographed. Surrendering himself makes him look responsible.

There is no question in my mind that the Militia and Kyle had the explicit blessing of at least 2 Police departments ( Antioch and Kenosha).


Yeah, the cops relying on militia is ridiculous and crazy. Attempt to call in the national guard or get other police resources if you can or whatever. Completely agree. That is absolutely part of the element of fault here.

That said, this situation simply doesn't happen if a ton of people don't decide to go out and burn down the town and destroy everything in sight. There is only a lack of police to deal with this situation because a riotous mob has formed to commit an amount of crime too large for the police to handle.

I think it's weird that people have normalized violent, destructive, criminal behavior as if because it is supporting racial injustice we should not care about destruction of property, theft, or death that has happened in these protests and just blame the police.


Well Doug, I am totally against looting and burning down towns, but I think you have to ask what's in the climate if it's happening (and normalized).

Every single time protests erupted in history, it was caused by these 4 things:

- Students/young adults feeling threatened ideologically
- Mistrust/lack of transparency in the government
- Economic disparity
- Racial/ethnic injustice

The pandemic was just the ignition for all this stuff.

But this is what happens. It doesn't make much imagination to ask what a good, intelligent leader would do. They would plead with the protestors to stop the looting and violence. He would meet with protest leaders and discuss endlessly what can be done.

Trump has been fighting back both with aggressive rhetoric and literally sending in secret service and national guard against city wishes. The POTUS is supposed to be smarter and the "better man" than an angry 20yo, yet he's basically stubbornly duking it out.

You really can't blame the mob... because the mob is a mob. It's chaotic, unpredictable. A practical thing is blaming the leaders. Trump administration is absolutely handling this protest climate as badly as the pandemic: F-

I would say Lori Lightfoot for example, while she has had a tough job, she's made a lot of bad gaffes with the police and protestors. She's also done a bad job. Her and Pritzker have done alright with the pandemic. Atleast they accepted the science. Perhaps economically, their decisions weren't the best in the long-run; we will see.

Rodney King riots lasted less than one week. There has been a big build-up of these Police brutality protests the last 10 years. We have reached a tipping point. I hate to over-simplify this, but to simplify it... the reason we are 4 months into violent riots with no end in sight, is because the POTUS is a sociopath and horrible leader, unwilling to discuss or acknowledge. I mean, he's screaming Law & Order in return. It's like having a misbehaving teenager with major depression issues and continuing to spank them really hard to teach them a lesson.


Well said. Understanding it still doesn’t make it right. Trump lacks the skill and heart to actually work together. He just wants to bully people and yell louder.
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Re: NBA games postponed today p14 Players decide to resume Playoffs 

Post#543 » by musiqsoulchild » Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:55 pm

Now in Portland, another killing. This time not by Militia but by Trump supporters.

So, yeah, this is it.

Trump is actively encouraging this. It's his only chance to win and take focus away from Covid, the economy and his own stoking of the racial divide.
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Re: NBA games postponed today p14 Players decide to resume Playoffs 

Post#544 » by Chi town » Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:56 pm

musiqsoulchild wrote:
Chi town wrote:
musiqsoulchild wrote:
I have seen this video before. There are others like that.

There are some who believe BLM should be used to eradicate Latin gangs from Chicago.

I dont condone ANY of that.

Again, every major movement has a few nefarious people under the umbrella of the movement.

That doesnt delegitimize the movement. It shouldn't. If it does, it does. But it shouldnt.


Have you been to any protests? I’ve been to 4. One with my son and 3 by myself. One turned violent quick and stuff got crazy. I personally saw plenty of white people stirring the pot and antagonizing and none of them seemed to be for Justice. Didn’t say justice chants or carry signs. Just screamed a lot and were aggressive.

If you think this isn’t organized I don’t know what to tell you as Doug cited above.

The left and BLM needs to demand a stop to violence and looting just like MLK did consistently... and he was criticized for it a lot.

The right needs to recognize and name racism and support police reform.

Militias are INSANE! We know traditionally what type of people join these... let’s just say they aren’t marching w BLM. National Guard has to be sent in before the demonstrations happen. Not after it gets out of hand.

NBA absolutely should have suspended Harrel for his slur against Luka too. Luka says anything about race to him and you know he’s suspended. Racism itself can not be tolerated. The same for all hate speech.


Ironically, I have been to 3 with my 6 year old son.

All, very powerful. And very peaceful.

All, organized by NAACP.


Great to hear your son went with you. Lots of learning can happen when we lean in.
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Re: NBA games postponed today p14 Players decide to resume Playoffs 

Post#545 » by AshyLarrysDiaper » Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:59 pm

White supremacist violence at these protests started way before the rioting and looting.

Look at Charlottesville. Look at the way the Proud Boys have agitated at peaceful protests. The Boogaloo member who ambushed three LEOs in Santa Cruz and Oakland, killing one.

Strange to me that folks are quick to call out the opportunism of looters, but the racists who use protests as a cover for their violent fantasies? An afterthought.

Actually, not even afterthought. There's been an outpouring of empathy for Rittenhouse in this thread. It's disgusting.
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Re: NBA games postponed today p14 Players decide to resume Playoffs 

Post#546 » by IliketheBullsNBearstoo » Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:07 am

AshyLarrysDiaper wrote:White supremacist violence at these protests started way before the rioting and looting.

Look at Charlottesville. Look at the way the Proud Boys have agitated at peaceful protests. The Boogaloo member who ambushed three LEOs in Santa Cruz and Oakland, killing one.

Strange to me that folks are quick to call out the opportunism of looters, but the racists who use protests as a cover for their violent fantasies? An afterthought.

Actually, not even afterthought. There's been an outpouring of empathy for Rittenhouse in this thread. It's disgusting.


Before I get mixed up in that "outpouring of empathy" I want it to be clear that I am not holding judgment and was merely giving my opinion if what the majority believes is true is not true. I don't like words being put in my mouth.

On top of that, considering what you said previous to that comment on Rittenhouse, how are you so sure it wasn't these racists that he did shoot? There is a video of one of the men he shot saying the n word. Maybe you're getting the racist whites mixed up. I don't know, we don't know yet. Maybe we never will. I just do not like jumping to conclusions based off of what we read and see in the media.

*I take back the words being put in my mouth comment. It was not you who did that.
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Re: NBA games postponed today p14 Players decide to resume Playoffs 

Post#547 » by Shill » Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:09 am

musiqsoulchild wrote:Now in Portland, another killing. This time not by Militia but by Trump supporters.

So, yeah, this is it.

Trump is actively encouraging this. It's his only chance to win and take focus away from Covid, the economy and his own stoking of the racial divide.



Details are sketchy, but I heard it was a pro-police protester who got killed.
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Re: NBA games postponed today p14 Players decide to resume Playoffs 

Post#548 » by Chi town » Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:11 am

AshyLarrysDiaper wrote:White supremacist violence at these protests started way before the rioting and looting.

Look at Charlottesville. Look at the way the Proud Boys have agitated at peaceful protests. The Boogaloo member who ambushed three LEOs in Santa Cruz and Oakland, killing one.

Strange to me that folks are quick to call out the opportunism of looters, but the racists who use protests as a cover for their violent fantasies? An afterthought.

Actually, not even afterthought. There's been an outpouring of empathy for Rittenhouse in this thread. It's disgusting.


He’s a product of the environment and system. He shows why we are where we are. To think two police departments supported him being there... mind boggling.
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Re: NBA games postponed today p14 Players decide to resume Playoffs 

Post#549 » by AshyLarrysDiaper » Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:13 am

IliketheBullsNBearstoo wrote:
AshyLarrysDiaper wrote:White supremacist violence at these protests started way before the rioting and looting.

Look at Charlottesville. Look at the way the Proud Boys have agitated at peaceful protests. The Boogaloo member who ambushed three LEOs in Santa Cruz and Oakland, killing one.

Strange to me that folks are quick to call out the opportunism of looters, but the racists who use protests as a cover for their violent fantasies? An afterthought.

Actually, not even afterthought. There's been an outpouring of empathy for Rittenhouse in this thread. It's disgusting.


Before I get mixed up in that "outpouring of empathy" I want it to be clear that I am not holding judgment and was merely giving my opinion if what the majority believes is true is not true. I don't like words being put in my mouth.

On top of that, considering what you said previous to that comment on Rittenhouse, how are you so sure it wasn't these racists that he did shoot? There is a video of one of the men he shot saying the n word. Maybe you're getting the racist whites mixed up. I don't know, we don't know yet. Maybe we never will. I just do not like jumping to conclusions based off of what we read and see in the media.


I don't care whether the men he shot was racist. He was there looking for violence and he found it. You can come up with any justification you want for a 17-year-old to drive up to a town that isn't his, with a gun that isn't his, to defend businesses he has a tenuous connection to (if any), but none of it passes muster.

And yes, your "maybe he's a hero rant" is empathy. Doesn't matter what modifiers you put around it. It's repulsive. But if it's any consolation, you aren't alone.
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Re: NBA games postponed today p14 Players decide to resume Playoffs 

Post#550 » by IliketheBullsNBearstoo » Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:26 am

AshyLarrysDiaper wrote:
IliketheBullsNBearstoo wrote:
AshyLarrysDiaper wrote:White supremacist violence at these protests started way before the rioting and looting.

Look at Charlottesville. Look at the way the Proud Boys have agitated at peaceful protests. The Boogaloo member who ambushed three LEOs in Santa Cruz and Oakland, killing one.

Strange to me that folks are quick to call out the opportunism of looters, but the racists who use protests as a cover for their violent fantasies? An afterthought.

Actually, not even afterthought. There's been an outpouring of empathy for Rittenhouse in this thread. It's disgusting.


Before I get mixed up in that "outpouring of empathy" I want it to be clear that I am not holding judgment and was merely giving my opinion if what the majority believes is true is not true. I don't like words being put in my mouth.

On top of that, considering what you said previous to that comment on Rittenhouse, how are you so sure it wasn't these racists that he did shoot? There is a video of one of the men he shot saying the n word. Maybe you're getting the racist whites mixed up. I don't know, we don't know yet. Maybe we never will. I just do not like jumping to conclusions based off of what we read and see in the media.


I don't care whether the men he shot was racist. He was there looking for violence and he found it. You can come up with any justification you want for a 17-year-old to drive up to a town that isn't his, with a gun that isn't his, to defend businesses he has a tenuous connection to (if any), but none of it passes muster.

And yes, your "maybe he's a hero rant" is empathy. Doesn't matter what modifiers you put around it. It's repulsive. But if it's any consolation, you aren't alone.


Look IMO that is such a one sided way of thinking and clearly there is no point in discussing it any further. My "rant" was only to add other perspectives instead just jumping to a conclusion on the kid. Imagine if cops just jumped to conclusions in this way. Oh wait....
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Re: NBA games postponed today p14 Players decide to resume Playoffs 

Post#551 » by musiqsoulchild » Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:26 am

Shill wrote:
musiqsoulchild wrote:Now in Portland, another killing. This time not by Militia but by Trump supporters.

So, yeah, this is it.

Trump is actively encouraging this. It's his only chance to win and take focus away from Covid, the economy and his own stoking of the racial divide.



Details are sketchy, but I heard it was a pro-police protester who got killed.


The sad thing is that doesnt change the reality of what I wrote.

That Trump is actively doing this.
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Re: NBA games postponed today p14 Players decide to resume Playoffs 

Post#552 » by AshyLarrysDiaper » Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:27 am

IliketheBullsNBearstoo wrote:
AshyLarrysDiaper wrote:
IliketheBullsNBearstoo wrote:
Before I get mixed up in that "outpouring of empathy" I want it to be clear that I am not holding judgment and was merely giving my opinion if what the majority believes is true is not true. I don't like words being put in my mouth.

On top of that, considering what you said previous to that comment on Rittenhouse, how are you so sure it wasn't these racists that he did shoot? There is a video of one of the men he shot saying the n word. Maybe you're getting the racist whites mixed up. I don't know, we don't know yet. Maybe we never will. I just do not like jumping to conclusions based off of what we read and see in the media.


I don't care whether the men he shot was racist. He was there looking for violence and he found it. You can come up with any justification you want for a 17-year-old to drive up to a town that isn't his, with a gun that isn't his, to defend businesses he has a tenuous connection to (if any), but none of it passes muster.

And yes, your "maybe he's a hero rant" is empathy. Doesn't matter what modifiers you put around it. It's repulsive. But if it's any consolation, you aren't alone.


Look IMO that is such a one sided way of thinking and clearly there is no point in discussing it any further. My "rant" was only to add other perspectives instead just jumping to a conclusion on the kid. Imagine if cops just jumped to conclusions in this way. Oh wait....


Great. Let's not discuss further.
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Re: NBA games postponed today p14 Players decide to resume Playoffs 

Post#553 » by logical_art » Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:30 am

This is a tragically misguided moral hysteria by the country and now the NBA. The evidence that unarmed blacks are more likely to be killed by police in a given encounter than whites is weak. Several times more unarmed whites and other races are shot and killed by police each year than blacks. Nevertheless, because race sells and the media reports on blacks being shot by cops 9x more frequently than whites (https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/media-great-racial-awakening) there's a misguided belief that blacks are indiscriminately targeted and mowed down by police. Very few people can name a non-black victim of police shooting, despite the fact that there are many more of them than black victims. Furthermore, there's not evidence in these cases that the police who shoot black people are actually motivated by the racism of the police shooter. This is just assumed in every case, despite far more people of other races being killed by cops.

Nevertheless, because of the biased reporting, history and the reputational risk that Americans face if they wish to take issue with a "black cause" regardless of its factual basis, here we are in full moral hysteria. We have massive protests in the midst of a pandemic. We have looting and rioting damaging small businesses already in trouble because of COVID19. We have municipal budgets blown up because of having to deal with riots and protests. We have increasingly strained race relations. We have people dead and injured. We have threats to the core teachings of Dr Martin Luther King, led by the cynical faux intellectual huckster Ibram X Kendi who claims that the only way to be anti racist is through racism. We have threats to meritocracy led by the childishly over-simplistic and unsubstantiated view that the only single reason blacks don't currently excel at everything is racism. We have new witch hunt for racists whereby even the accusation of racism can damage a persons livelihood without trial. And we have a McCarthy era like chill on open dialogue that threatens the spirit if not the law of our first amendment. Chappelle, hopefully not prophetically, has observed that the first amendment exists so we don't have to use the second.

For what? What will be the outcome of all this? BLM has been in existence for nearly a decade now and received millions of dollars of funding. What positive impacts do they have to show for their work? What will they have to show for their work that justifies all of the costs associated with their actions?

If people care about lethally bad policing, they should care regardless of the race of the victim given the lack of evidence one race faces the problem disproportionately. If people care about black lives (i.e. murders of black people), they should care about non-police killing of blacks which account for many magnitudes times more murders of black people than police. Unfortunately neither of these larger and more significant causes of loss of life are taken up and instead we have this misguided, divisive, destructive and so far ineffective movement focusing on the much smaller problem.

Why is the NBA hitching their wagon to this cause?
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Re: NBA games postponed today p14 Players decide to resume Playoffs 

Post#554 » by dice » Mon Aug 31, 2020 3:55 am

logical_art wrote:This is a tragically misguided moral hysteria by the country and now the NBA. The evidence that unarmed blacks are more likely to be killed by police in a given encounter than whites is weak.

here's an exhaustive study showing that unarmed black people are three times more likely per capita to be killed by police:

https://news.northeastern.edu/2020/07/16/the-research-is-clear-white-people-are-not-more-likely-than-black-people-to-be-killed-by-police/

so? black people have 3.5 times more interactions w/ police, you say? that itself is the function of racism! read on:

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/06/11/opinion/statistical-paradox-police-killings/

but, to reiterate, killings are only a fraction of the issue. the broader point that blacks and whites are treated unequally by police is undeniably true and there is absolutely no question that it needs to be addressed. single-minded reduction of that reality to questionable and/or incomplete and/or uncontextualized violent crime data is nothing more than disingenuous distraction aimed at avoiding the broader issue, which includes sentencing and harassment (both undeniably biased based on race). blaming the media for exaggeration (which ALL media does and will always do) is similarly a mere distraction from attempting to deal with the underlying reality

it should be common sense that if at least SOME police officers are racist (and there are SOME racists in pretty much every walk of life), then there's going to be at least SOME inequity in policing. and there's no reason to think that the line would be drawn at violence. the only question is HOW MUCH inequity there is. if presented with data suggesting that there's no racial bias, or that there's somehow more mistreatment of white people, the sensible person should recognize that something is lacking in that data

if you don't believe that substantial racism still exists in police interactions with civilians, you either haven't talked to enough minorities or haven't been willing to listen. black people still can't even drive around in a nice car without fearing being pulled over for DWB. black parents still need to have conversations about police with their children that white parents do not

here's the personal experience of the whitest black guy around. it ain't unique (skip to 15:50):



and the many experiences of a completely non-threatening little black woman (along w/ a wealth of stories in the comments section):



even when famous:

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/chris-rock-police-photos-comedian-785805#:~:text=In%20a%202014%20installment%20of,driving%20an%20orange%201969%20Lamborghini.

do the financial resources of police departments need to be rethought? absolutely. is violence in the name of racial justice the answer? my opinion: no. but the reality is that every time a white cop unnecessarily kills a black person the risks are going to grow

We have massive protests in the midst of a pandemic.

which, given that they are outdoors w/ many wearing masks and attempting to social distance, has not been shown to have a significant impact on infection rates

We have looting and rioting damaging small businesses already in trouble because of COVID19.

unacceptable (same with large businesses, by the way)

We have municipal budgets blown up because of having to deal with riots and protests.

it is not the responsibility of protesters to factor in the financial stability of those they are protesting against

We have increasingly strained race relations.

the result of white cops allowing themselves to be videotaped unconscionably killing black people. and a president consistently dog-whistling racists after building his political base by being the leading proponent of a racist conspiracy theory about our last president. and he's at it again:

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-kamala-harris-false-birther-conspiracy-eligibility-vp-2020-8

We have people dead and injured.

a drop in the bucket compared to COVID, which you only seem to be concerned about as a societal issue when it comes to the practicality of protesting racial injustice. hmmm...

and by the way...TENS OF MILLIONS of protesters have taken to the streets already. that only a few dozen people have been killed (many due to the presence of outside agitators) is pretty damn remarkable

We have threats to the core teachings of Dr Martin Luther King, led by the cynical faux intellectual huckster Ibram X Kendi who claims that the only way to be anti racist is through racism.

cherry picking. there are plenty of dubious individuals on both sides of just about any issue

and don't pretend that you're big on the legacy of MLK. if you were, you wouldn't have an issue w/ overwhelmingly peaceful protests. MLK would have a problem w/ the violence associated with some of these events, but he would have no problem with the core of the protests

We have threats to meritocracy led by the childishly over-simplistic and unsubstantiated view that the only single reason blacks don't currently excel at everything is racism.

that comment is childishly over-simplistic. first of all, not a single person holds that grossly exaggerated view. secondly...

we've had threats to meritocracy since the founding of this nation in the form of the subjugation of races. it exists to this very day in the form of wildly variable educational opportunity alone

an equally accomplished black person is MORE meritorious than his white counterpart on average because he/she has had to overcome more in order to get there. that's reality. black people are NOT less accomplished on average because the village elders got together and decided that the culture would focus less on personal achievement or something. that's nonsense. it's systemic. perceived cultural deficiencies develop in large part organically due to systemic restraints

is someone with a 3.5 GPA who had every educational opportunity more meritorious than someone with a 3.3 GPA who didn't? unlikely

in short, it is the inequalities that persist due to racism past and present that do profound damage to the ideal of meritocracy, not the hiring/college acceptance practices put in place to ADDRESS that threat to meritocracy

We have new witch hunt for racists whereby even the accusation of racism can damage a persons livelihood without trial. And we have a McCarthy era like chill on open dialogue that threatens the spirit if not the law of our first amendment.

legitimate issues in many cases

For what? What will be the outcome of all this? BLM has been in existence for nearly a decade now and received millions of dollars of funding. What positive impacts do they have to show for their work? What will they have to show for their work that justifies all of the costs associated with their actions?

unless you've been sleeping through quarantine you should know the answer to that. for the first time we are seeing police departments committing to funding changes. for the first time public opinion has drastically shifted. for the first time we're seeing huge nationwide protests

saying that BLM has been around ten years and accomplished nothing is plainly disingenuous. as you well know, we're in the infancy the organization's impact due to the events of 2020. you could maybe make that case a year ago. you can't now. it required the events of 2020 for the organization to even be broadly seen as legitimate

and for the record, BLM has been only been around for 7 years, staging formal protests for 6 after starting as a hashtag

If people care about lethally bad policing...

again, it's about way more than lethality. and any change in policing policy that benefits black people will invariably benefit ANYONE who's suffering mistreatment

Why is the NBA hitching their wagon to this cause?

$$$. duh. they have calculated that the economic ramifications of alienating their players is more substantial then ignoring them is. that it's the right thing to do is of little consequence in their calculus
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Re: NBA games postponed today p14 Players decide to resume Playoffs 

Post#555 » by musiqsoulchild » Mon Aug 31, 2020 5:05 am

logical_art wrote:This is a tragically misguided moral hysteria by the country and now the NBA. The evidence that unarmed blacks are more likely to be killed by police in a given encounter than whites is weak. Several times more unarmed whites and other races are shot and killed by police each year than blacks. Nevertheless, because race sells and the media reports on blacks being shot by cops 9x more frequently than whites (https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/media-great-racial-awakening) there's a misguided belief that blacks are indiscriminately targeted and mowed down by police. Very few people can name a non-black victim of police shooting, despite the fact that there are many more of them than black victims. Furthermore, there's not evidence in these cases that the police who shoot black people are actually motivated by the racism of the police shooter. This is just assumed in every case, despite far more people of other races being killed by cops.

Nevertheless, because of the biased reporting, history and the reputational risk that Americans face if they wish to take issue with a "black cause" regardless of its factual basis, here we are in full moral hysteria. We have massive protests in the midst of a pandemic. We have looting and rioting damaging small businesses already in trouble because of COVID19. We have municipal budgets blown up because of having to deal with riots and protests. We have increasingly strained race relations. We have people dead and injured. We have threats to the core teachings of Dr Martin Luther King, led by the cynical faux intellectual huckster Ibram X Kendi who claims that the only way to be anti racist is through racism. We have threats to meritocracy led by the childishly over-simplistic and unsubstantiated view that the only single reason blacks don't currently excel at everything is racism. We have new witch hunt for racists whereby even the accusation of racism can damage a persons livelihood without trial. And we have a McCarthy era like chill on open dialogue that threatens the spirit if not the law of our first amendment. Chappelle, hopefully not prophetically, has observed that the first amendment exists so we don't have to use the second.

For what? What will be the outcome of all this? BLM has been in existence for nearly a decade now and received millions of dollars of funding. What positive impacts do they have to show for their work? What will they have to show for their work that justifies all of the costs associated with their actions?

If people care about lethally bad policing, they should care regardless of the race of the victim given the lack of evidence one race faces the problem disproportionately. If people care about black lives (i.e. murders of black people), they should care about non-police killing of blacks which account for many magnitudes times more murders of black people than police. Unfortunately neither of these larger and more significant causes of loss of life are taken up and instead we have this misguided, divisive, destructive and so far ineffective movement focusing on the much smaller problem.

Why is the NBA hitching their wagon to this cause?


This is complicated but I'll try to be succint.

The answer lies in why big cities have so many Black Mayors whereas States have so few Black Governors.

There have been about 7 Black Governors in US history thus far. In ALL of time.

In sharp contrast, there are almost 50 mayors in the top 100 most populated cities in the US.

There have been only 10 Senators thus far in all US history. And a lot more Representatives in Congress.

These data points show a valuable social phenomenon.

A Black candidate wins in big cities because progressives see racial diversity as the SIMPLEST way to show PROGRESS. It's a simplistic approach but it's how it is.

Now, after getting elected the Black mayor has to pander to this super progressive base of his.

Which doesn't translate to the entire state. In the rural parts of a state, why would they vote for a super progressive Black person whom they dont even know?

So, BLM is like that. The movement has validity. But to reach critical mass it needs and has support of super progressive and in some cases left to extreme left voices.

A big part of this is because the movement was not birthed in a city that could have a strong Centrist counterforce.

A good example is below:

In Chicago, Obama was propelled to power by progressives..but he was pulled to the Center by his progressive base. Not to the left.
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Re: NBA games postponed today p14 Players decide to resume Playoffs 

Post#556 » by Chi town » Mon Aug 31, 2020 5:30 am

dice wrote:
logical_art wrote:This is a tragically misguided moral hysteria by the country and now the NBA. The evidence that unarmed blacks are more likely to be killed by police in a given encounter than whites is weak.

here's an exhaustive study showing that unarmed black people are three times more likely per capita to be killed by police:

https://news.northeastern.edu/2020/07/16/the-research-is-clear-white-people-are-not-more-likely-than-black-people-to-be-killed-by-police/

so? black people have 3.5 times more interactions w/ police, you say? that itself is the function of racism! read on:

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/06/11/opinion/statistical-paradox-police-killings/

but, to reiterate, killings are only a fraction of the issue. the broader point that blacks and whites are treated unequally by police is undeniably true and there is absolutely no question that it needs to be addressed. single-minded reduction of that reality to questionable and/or incomplete and/or uncontextualized violent crime data is nothing more than disingenuous distraction aimed at avoiding the broader issue, which includes sentencing and harassment (both undeniably biased based on race). blaming the media for exaggeration (which ALL media does and will always do) is similarly a mere distraction from attempting to deal with the underlying reality

it should be common sense that if at least SOME police officers are racist (and there are SOME racists in pretty much every walk of life), then there's going to be at least SOME inequity in policing. and there's no reason to think that the line would be drawn at violence. the only question is HOW MUCH inequity there is. if presented with data suggesting that there's no racial bias, or that there's somehow more mistreatment of white people, the sensible person should recognize that something is lacking in that data

if you don't believe that substantial racism still exists in police interactions with civilians, you either haven't talked to enough minorities or haven't been willing to listen. black people still can't even drive around in a nice car without fearing being pulled over for DWB. black parents still need to have conversations about police with their children that white parents do not

here's the personal experience of the whitest black guy around. it ain't unique (skip to 15:50):



and the many experiences of a completely non-threatening little black woman (along w/ a wealth of stories in the comments section):



even when famous:

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/chris-rock-police-photos-comedian-785805#:~:text=In%20a%202014%20installment%20of,driving%20an%20orange%201969%20Lamborghini.

do the financial resources of police departments need to be rethought? absolutely. is violence in the name of racial justice the answer? my opinion: no. but the reality is that every time a white cop unnecessarily kills a black person the risks are going to grow

We have massive protests in the midst of a pandemic.

which, given that they are outdoors w/ many wearing masks and attempting to social distance, has not been shown to have a significant impact on infection rates

We have looting and rioting damaging small businesses already in trouble because of COVID19.

unacceptable (same with large businesses, by the way)

We have municipal budgets blown up because of having to deal with riots and protests.

it is not the responsibility of protesters to factor in the financial stability of those they are protesting against

We have increasingly strained race relations.

the result of white cops allowing themselves to be videotaped unconscionably killing black people. and a president consistently dog-whistling racists after building his political base by being the leading proponent of a racist conspiracy theory about our last president. and he's at it again:

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-kamala-harris-false-birther-conspiracy-eligibility-vp-2020-8

We have people dead and injured.

a drop in the bucket compared to COVID, which you only seem to be concerned about as a societal issue when it comes to the practicality of protesting racial injustice. hmmm...

and by the way...TENS OF MILLIONS of protesters have taken to the streets already. that only a few dozen people have been killed (many due to the presence of outside agitators) is pretty damn remarkable

We have threats to the core teachings of Dr Martin Luther King, led by the cynical faux intellectual huckster Ibram X Kendi who claims that the only way to be anti racist is through racism.

cherry picking. there are plenty of dubious individuals on both sides of just about any issue

and don't pretend that you're big on the legacy of MLK. if you were, you wouldn't have an issue w/ overwhelmingly peaceful protests. MLK would have a problem w/ the violence associated with some of these events, but he would have no problem with the core of the protests

We have threats to meritocracy led by the childishly over-simplistic and unsubstantiated view that the only single reason blacks don't currently excel at everything is racism.

that comment is childishly over-simplistic. first of all, not a single person holds that grossly exaggerated view. secondly...

we've had threats to meritocracy since the founding of this nation in the form of the subjugation of races. it exists to this very day in the form of wildly variable educational opportunity alone

an equally accomplished black person is MORE meritorious than his white counterpart on average because he/she has had to overcome more in order to get there. that's reality. black people are NOT less accomplished on average because the village elders got together and decided that the culture would focus less on personal achievement or something. that's nonsense. it's systemic. perceived cultural deficiencies develop in large part organically due to systemic restraints

is someone with a 3.5 GPA who had every educational opportunity more meritorious than someone with a 3.3 GPA who didn't? unlikely

in short, it is the inequalities that persist due to racism past and present that do profound damage to the ideal of meritocracy, not the hiring/college acceptance practices put in place to ADDRESS that threat to meritocracy

We have new witch hunt for racists whereby even the accusation of racism can damage a persons livelihood without trial. And we have a McCarthy era like chill on open dialogue that threatens the spirit if not the law of our first amendment.

legitimate issues in many cases

For what? What will be the outcome of all this? BLM has been in existence for nearly a decade now and received millions of dollars of funding. What positive impacts do they have to show for their work? What will they have to show for their work that justifies all of the costs associated with their actions?

unless you've been sleeping through quarantine you should know the answer to that. for the first time we are seeing police departments committing to funding changes. for the first time public opinion has drastically shifted. for the first time we're seeing huge nationwide protests

saying that BLM has been around ten years and accomplished nothing is plainly disingenuous. as you well know, we're in the infancy the organization's impact due to the events of 2020. you could maybe make that case a year ago. you can't now. it required the events of 2020 for the organization to even be broadly seen as legitimate

and for the record, BLM has been only been around for 7 years, staging formal protests for 6 after starting as a hashtag

If people care about lethally bad policing...

again, it's about way more than lethality. and any change in policing policy that benefits black people will invariably benefit ANYONE who's suffering mistreatment

Why is the NBA hitching their wagon to this cause?

$$$. duh. they have calculated that the economic ramifications of alienating their players is more substantial then ignoring them is. that it's the right thing to do is of little consequence in their calculus


Nailed it, Dice.
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Re: NBA games postponed today p14 Players decide to resume Playoffs 

Post#557 » by dougthonus » Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:14 pm

AshyLarrysDiaper wrote:White supremacist violence at these protests started way before the rioting and looting.

Look at Charlottesville. Look at the way the Proud Boys have agitated at peaceful protests. The Boogaloo member who ambushed three LEOs in Santa Cruz and Oakland, killing one.


For me personally, I have not even heard of either of these stories. I don't even know who the proud boys are or the boogaloo are. From context, I'm assuming new gen KKK type people. Complete ignorance on my part there. I wish we could just throw the whole lot of those types into bottomless pit though, and assuming I picked up on the context clues correctly, I would be against anything those groups do on principle.

Strange to me that folks are quick to call out the opportunism of looters, but the racists who use protests as a cover for their violent fantasies? An afterthought.


For me personally, I know someone whom had their business destroyed by looters. I know many people that were in lock down at various times because it was too dangerous to go out side during the riots, and those people whom had their whole neighborhoods trashed.

My local walmart was looted 10 minutes before I arrived to go grocery shopping with my daughter in the car and I'm out in the suburbs. We weren't in any danger, but if we left 30 minutes early we would have been.

The Chicago BLM organizer praised looters, encouraged looters, and said that peaceful protests never amounted in any change and that these behaviors will happen until the Chicago PD is disbanded.

I know these things and not the first things because they are local. They directly happened to me or to people I know. I don't live in Santa Cruz or Charlottesville, nor do I know anyone who lives in either place.

I know this is a passionate topic for you, and I'd imagine because of that, you have a very holistic view of what is happening in this movement across a much broader spectrum than other people, like myself, whom probably see only the biggest stories and the local stories.

Actually, not even afterthought. There's been an outpouring of empathy for Rittenhouse in this thread. It's disgusting.


I haven't seen much outpouring of empathy for him, maybe a couple comments out of hundreds, but mostly just comments of whether he is guilty of murder or defended himself. In the right wing press, I totally agree, you're seeing that "he was a hero" junk, he sure as hell isn't a hero. That's ridiculous. There's no heroes here. This whole situation was a tragedy, to suggest heroism of this kid just feels racist on its surface, what is heroic about shooting three people? It may have been self defense, but that doesn't make it heroic.

There's absolutely a right and wrong side of black rights, diversity, inclusion, equity, social justice, police brutality and economic reform IMO. However, that doesn't mean that every event that happens that is tangentially related to the topic has the guilt or innocence of the people involved determined by which side of this greater issue they fall on, but that seems to be the current take of a lot of people right now where people just automatically politicize whatever happens and jump on an extreme position based on their side of this broader issue.
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Re: NBA games postponed today p14 Players decide to resume Playoffs 

Post#558 » by logical_art » Mon Aug 31, 2020 3:26 pm

dice wrote:
logical_art wrote:This is a tragically misguided moral hysteria by the country and now the NBA. The evidence that unarmed blacks are more likely to be killed by police in a given encounter than whites is weak.

here's an exhaustive study showing that unarmed black people are three times more likely per capita to be killed by police:

https://news.northeastern.edu/2020/07/16/the-research-is-clear-white-people-are-not-more-likely-than-black-people-to-be-killed-by-police/

so? black people have 3.5 times more interactions w/ police, you say? that itself is the function of racism! read on:

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/06/11/opinion/statistical-paradox-police-killings/

but, to reiterate, killings are only a fraction of the issue. the broader point that blacks and whites are treated unequally by police is undeniably true and there is absolutely no question that it needs to be addressed. single-minded reduction of that reality to questionable and/or incomplete and/or uncontextualized violent crime data is nothing more than disingenuous distraction aimed at avoiding the broader issue, which includes sentencing and harassment (both undeniably biased based on race). blaming the media for exaggeration (which ALL media does and will always do) is similarly a mere distraction from attempting to deal with the underlying reality

it should be common sense that if at least SOME police officers are racist (and there are SOME racists in pretty much every walk of life), then there's going to be at least SOME inequity in policing. and there's no reason to think that the line would be drawn at violence. the only question is HOW MUCH inequity there is. if presented with data suggesting that there's no racial bias, or that there's somehow more mistreatment of white people, the sensible person should recognize that something is lacking in that data

if you don't believe that substantial racism still exists in police interactions with civilians, you either haven't talked to enough minorities or haven't been willing to listen. black people still can't even drive around in a nice car without fearing being pulled over for DWB. black parents still need to have conversations about police with their children that white parents do not

here's the personal experience of the whitest black guy around. it ain't unique (skip to 15:50):



and the many experiences of a completely non-threatening little black woman (along w/ a wealth of stories in the comments section):



even when famous:

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/chris-rock-police-photos-comedian-785805#:~:text=In%20a%202014%20installment%20of,driving%20an%20orange%201969%20Lamborghini.

do the financial resources of police departments need to be rethought? absolutely. is violence in the name of racial justice the answer? my opinion: no. but the reality is that every time a white cop unnecessarily kills a black person the risks are going to grow

We have massive protests in the midst of a pandemic.

which, given that they are outdoors w/ many wearing masks and attempting to social distance, has not been shown to have a significant impact on infection rates

We have looting and rioting damaging small businesses already in trouble because of COVID19.

unacceptable (same with large businesses, by the way)

We have municipal budgets blown up because of having to deal with riots and protests.

it is not the responsibility of protesters to factor in the financial stability of those they are protesting against

We have increasingly strained race relations.

the result of white cops allowing themselves to be videotaped unconscionably killing black people. and a president consistently dog-whistling racists after building his political base by being the leading proponent of a racist conspiracy theory about our last president. and he's at it again:

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-kamala-harris-false-birther-conspiracy-eligibility-vp-2020-8

We have people dead and injured.

a drop in the bucket compared to COVID, which you only seem to be concerned about as a societal issue when it comes to the practicality of protesting racial injustice. hmmm...

and by the way...TENS OF MILLIONS of protesters have taken to the streets already. that only a few dozen people have been killed (many due to the presence of outside agitators) is pretty damn remarkable

We have threats to the core teachings of Dr Martin Luther King, led by the cynical faux intellectual huckster Ibram X Kendi who claims that the only way to be anti racist is through racism.

cherry picking. there are plenty of dubious individuals on both sides of just about any issue

and don't pretend that you're big on the legacy of MLK. if you were, you wouldn't have an issue w/ overwhelmingly peaceful protests. MLK would have a problem w/ the violence associated with some of these events, but he would have no problem with the core of the protests

We have threats to meritocracy led by the childishly over-simplistic and unsubstantiated view that the only single reason blacks don't currently excel at everything is racism.

that comment is childishly over-simplistic. first of all, not a single person holds that grossly exaggerated view. secondly...

we've had threats to meritocracy since the founding of this nation in the form of the subjugation of races. it exists to this very day in the form of wildly variable educational opportunity alone

an equally accomplished black person is MORE meritorious than his white counterpart on average because he/she has had to overcome more in order to get there. that's reality. black people are NOT less accomplished on average because the village elders got together and decided that the culture would focus less on personal achievement or something. that's nonsense. it's systemic. perceived cultural deficiencies develop in large part organically due to systemic restraints

is someone with a 3.5 GPA who had every educational opportunity more meritorious than someone with a 3.3 GPA who didn't? unlikely

in short, it is the inequalities that persist due to racism past and present that do profound damage to the ideal of meritocracy, not the hiring/college acceptance practices put in place to ADDRESS that threat to meritocracy

We have new witch hunt for racists whereby even the accusation of racism can damage a persons livelihood without trial. And we have a McCarthy era like chill on open dialogue that threatens the spirit if not the law of our first amendment.

legitimate issues in many cases

For what? What will be the outcome of all this? BLM has been in existence for nearly a decade now and received millions of dollars of funding. What positive impacts do they have to show for their work? What will they have to show for their work that justifies all of the costs associated with their actions?

unless you've been sleeping through quarantine you should know the answer to that. for the first time we are seeing police departments committing to funding changes. for the first time public opinion has drastically shifted. for the first time we're seeing huge nationwide protests

saying that BLM has been around ten years and accomplished nothing is plainly disingenuous. as you well know, we're in the infancy the organization's impact due to the events of 2020. you could maybe make that case a year ago. you can't now. it required the events of 2020 for the organization to even be broadly seen as legitimate

and for the record, BLM has been only been around for 7 years, staging formal protests for 6 after starting as a hashtag

If people care about lethally bad policing...

again, it's about way more than lethality. and any change in policing policy that benefits black people will invariably benefit ANYONE who's suffering mistreatment

Why is the NBA hitching their wagon to this cause?

$$$. duh. they have calculated that the economic ramifications of alienating their players is more substantial then ignoring them is. that it's the right thing to do is of little consequence in their calculus


It's difficult to take someone seriously who is too lazy to press the shift key to capitalize words.

Nevertheless here we go. Police killings per capita are irrelevant, and yet strangely you cite them. And dismissing all crime stats because of the great I don't have an argument so I'll play the racism card is a weak move but one that makes racism so powerful rhetorically. You don't have to have an argument, you can just wave the racism card and tilt the argument in your favor. Invariably, crime stats including victim and witness reports show that blacks are responsible for an outsized proportion of crimes. This leads to an outsize proportion of police interactions. The Boston Globe article digs deep to find an obscure statistical paradox that might indicate the evidence might be wrong. It doesn't however point to convincing evidence that would reject the null hypothesis that there is a difference in probability of being killed by race. This is the standard in the social sciences - rejecting the null hypothesis of a difference. Yet the best we can do is to provide some esoteric reason why the evidence of no difference may be wrong.

And now you go to the moving goal posts, a common move that at least tacitly concedes defeat. It's not killings, its general policing with regard to black people. Why then does BLM consistently refer to killings and even though they are most active after a killing or shooting (despite not furnishing any evidence that those incidents are racist)? Why then is there this national performative hysteria when there are killings?

And you point to anecdotes and lived experience. This is the weakest kind of evidence. There's no counterfactual that shows you how you would have been treated by that same officer had you been white. There's no controlling for how you interacted with the police. And those looking for racism in every indication will surely find it, even as it declines. https://science.sciencemag.org/content/360/6396/1465.

At some point it becomes incumbent on those imposing tremendous cost on the country in the name of a cause to demonstrate that the cause they are imposing that cost for is actually real and justifies their actions. This is not Selma where the laws were different for blacks and whites for all to see. This is a subtle statistical claim. Yet we see no effort from BLM and their ilk to demonstrate and persuade on the legitimacy of their cause. Instead we see efforts to cow the public into supporting their unsubstantiated cause through intimidation and threats to reputations and livelihoods.
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Re: NBA games postponed today p14 Players decide to resume Playoffs 

Post#559 » by dougthonus » Mon Aug 31, 2020 3:48 pm

logical_art wrote:no difference may be wrong.
And now you go to the moving goal posts, a common move that at least tacitly concedes defeat. It's not killings, its general policing with regard to black people. Why then does BLM consistently refer to killings and even though they are most active after a killing or shooting (despite not furnishing any evidence that those incidents are racist)? Why then is there this national performative hysteria when there are killings?


I don't think anyone is focused purely on killings. Killings are moments that are easy for everyone to empathize with and feel much more emotional about though. From a call to action perspective, the deaths are the easiest to get people into motion to force change. People aren't likely to be emotional about a disproportionate number of traffic stops.

I don't think anyone is looking to just stop deaths though and thinks everything else is fine except this one thing. That's kind of an absurd position.
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Re: NBA games postponed today p14 Players decide to resume Playoffs 

Post#560 » by Red8911 » Mon Aug 31, 2020 6:21 pm

musiqsoulchild wrote:
Shill wrote:
musiqsoulchild wrote:Now in Portland, another killing. This time not by Militia but by Trump supporters.

So, yeah, this is it.

Trump is actively encouraging this. It's his only chance to win and take focus away from Covid, the economy and his own stoking of the racial divide.



Details are sketchy, but I heard it was a pro-police protester who got killed.


The sad thing is that doesnt change the reality of what I wrote.

That Trump is actively doing this.

That’s just nonsense . Your making that up cause you hate Trump.If anyone is actively encouraging violence it’s the democrats. Not once did they condemn the looting, the crime or the madness blm supporters have caused. During their convention they didn’t even mention anything, like nothing happened or is going on lol. Democrats want the chaos right now, they are trying to use that and the black community in order to win an election. Such a dirty game they are playing. This is one of the reasons Trump will get re elected.

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