Prokorov wrote: but the question isnt really should we dump allen to ride with Jordan... its do you pass on an upgrade to levert/dinwiddie because you want to keep allen.
Choose the name... Lavine, Porter, Beal, Jrue whomever.
I'm not letting allen stand in the way of adding a guy like that. I think you can find an Allen or 80% of him alot easier than an impact wing and DJ gives you great insurance for a couple years
Scratch the two Bulls off the list. I'm not sure what your obsession with them is.
Beal is a young star. You back the truck up for him. For Jrue, it depends on what the rest of the package looks like, but if you can add picks to retain Allen, you do it.
im not an otto porter guy but marks love him and he is an initely better fit/need.
Lavine i like. dude is outstanding. he can score from anywhere on the court, finish, is relatively clutch. good on and off ball. still youngish and improving. tools to be a good defender. i think you put him on a good team and he plays consistently harder and becomes a beast.
I mean 25/5/4 on 38% from three is better then what levert posted in a small sample in the bubble and this is year 2 of him showing that production. we also lack elite athleticism
Lavine is a high volume scorer and horrid defender, who desperately wants to be an All Star. Seems to have an ego too. The Bulls also have no incentive to trade him meaning he would cost a ton.
20/7 all-nba defender = role player. if he is a role player than what do you consider levert, temple, and prince... towel boys?
You don’t spend $30 million on a role player, especially a guard role player.
You don’t trade young asset on cheap contract, for a 30 year old role player.
what young asset?
Holiday is 30 and made how many all nba defense teams? 1, 2? Wow, let’s trade the farm.
What young asset:
Spoiler:
Here’s how one of the best talent evaluators Sam Vecenie from The Athletic described Caris LeVert:
LeVert had a strong year again, basically backing up what he did as a third-year player prior to his injury. If anything, he actually got better this year. He was coming on strong as the season ended. From Feb. 3 onward, LeVert averaged 24.1 points, 4.8 rebounds and 5.1 assists. Even more than Spencer Dinwiddie, LeVert was becoming the leader in the absence of Kyrie Irving and Kevin Durant. He punctuated it with a 51-point onslaught in Boston to lead Brooklyn to a pretty big win, then followed it up in the last game before the break with 22 points, seven rebounds and four assists against the Lakers in a win.
I’m still going to bet that LeVert is one of those guys who is an awesome wing creator in the playoffs. When games tighten up, you want guys who can just get by their man constantly. LeVert has that ability. He’s going to scare either Milwaukee or Toronto in the playoffs this year. I pushed him down from 16 to 19 because of the injury history, but I think really highly of him. There are fewer players on this list I’m more looking forward to watching in 2020-21 than LeVert.
He does a lot of things extremely well. The place where I’ll start is that he just has the ability to get by his man in a variety of situations. With a quick first step, shifty handle and long strides at 6-foot-7, LeVert can create a shot out of a ball screen or in isolation, even when the game tightens up in the playoffs and tougher defense is being played. Some guys are worse players in the playoffs because their game requires too much overhandling, and it results in an iso game that wastes too much time and doesn’t foster efficient offense. LeVert isn’t one of those guys.
This isn’t rocket science but your entire argument against LeVert is his inefficiency. It’s been debunked many times but here’s some quick tips to help you out:
1. When you evaluate a player’s efficiency, you have to account for how are their points scored. LeVert doesn’t get easy baskets. All of his baskets are scored in the most difficult way possible. Breaking down multiple defenders and finishing or shooting over a rim protecting big. The bet we’re making, is with KD and Kyrie and other high IQ players LeVert will get easier baskets resulting in his efficiency sky rocketing.
2. When a player is injured for long stretches, he loses his conditioning. We just saw Oladipo come back and not play well. If you ever touched a basketball or did anything athletic in life you would understand this. When you dislocate your foot, it’s kind of hard to run and stay in peak NBA game shape.
3. The coaching scheme. Was the coach using LeVert in a way that maximized his strengths? Why did his efficiency dramatically increase when he was allowed to take more shots from mid range? Who were his teammates? Was he surrounded by shooters? Did the defense sag off his teammates limiting him his ability to drive to the basket? These and many more are all details that need to be accounted for.
You’re pretty much the guy that ignores all the context and details and dumbs everything down to simple TS%. Does it really take much basketball IQ to figure out how to sort players based on TS% on Bball-Ref. A small child can do that.
7footMONSTER wrote:Jrue and Beal will never play for the Nets. No championship team spends more than half their cap on guards. It’s a wing player’s league.
Lol at Jrue guarding AD or Kawhi. Just because you look like you’re putting in a lot of effort, doesn’t mean you’re actually getting stops. He can’t guard the elite wings, Can’t shoot, Is already over 30 and is about to demand a max contract when he hits unrestricted free agency next year.
You don’t spend $30 million on role players. Ask the 76ers.
Hard pass.
He has shown for half a decade he can guard the leagues best wings.
"cant shoot" is flat out false. Career 45/35/80 player.
You are the only one on this board who thinks freaking Jrue Holiday can guard Giannis, Tatum or Kawhi.
He will get DESTROYED.
Name one NBA Champion in the last 10 years who did not have an elite wing defender on their team above 6'5.
MrDollarBills wrote:We need a wing defender that can match up at 2, 3, and even 4 in some situations. We have to deal with Ben, Siakam, Giannis, Butler, and Tatum.
We need someone 6'8, good wingspan and some defensive chops on this roster. Who fits that bill in free agency or via trade? Jrue Holiday or Bradley Beal isn't answering that question.
Remember when we had Nwaba and Shumpert? And then all of a sudden our defense looked legit, we were getting stops, forcing turnovers, running the fast break and scoring easy transition buckets.
That’s the value of having versatile wing defenders that have length to guard anyone and disrupt the opponent’s offense.
All of our role player’s efficiency would sky rocket when they can get easy buckets in transition.
We don’t have that right now. We already have KD and Kyrie to score the difficult half court baskets when the defense is set.
Another option for us to acquire a 3nD wing is through the draft. There is a player who has been discussed before, who might be NBA ready and able to fill that role for us right away.
Saddiq Bey
Spoiler:
Scrappy, confident, high energy forward who broke out this season into one of the most productive players in the Big East … Outstanding three-point shooter who finished at 45% for the season on a high volume of shots (2.5 made threes per game) … Elite catch and shoot perimeter player … High motor, versatile player with the size to play the SF position at the next level (6’8, 216 pounds) and with a near 7-foot wingspan … An overachiever. Bey is a two-way player who stood out on both sides of the ball for #10 Villanova Wildcats this season … Knock down shooter from both mid-range and beyond the arc … Held his own in limited post opportunities this season … Strong and determined defender who can successfully defend 2s, 3s, and (college) 4s … Physical on both offense and defense
Projects as a late first round to an early second round pick … One of the more NBA ready players in this year’s draft because of his experience and style of play … 3 and D Wing player who could find a role in the league as a glue guy … Defensive ability could allow for impactful minutes as a rookie
Does he fall to us at19? Do we have any assets to move up a few spots?
7footMONSTER wrote:Another option for us to acquire a 3nD wing is through the draft. There is a player who has been discussed before, who might be NBA ready and able to fill that role for us right away.
Saddiq Bey
Spoiler:
Scrappy, confident, high energy forward who broke out this season into one of the most productive players in the Big East … Outstanding three-point shooter who finished at 45% for the season on a high volume of shots (2.5 made threes per game) … Elite catch and shoot perimeter player … High motor, versatile player with the size to play the SF position at the next level (6’8, 216 pounds) and with a near 7-foot wingspan … An overachiever. Bey is a two-way player who stood out on both sides of the ball for #10 Villanova Wildcats this season … Knock down shooter from both mid-range and beyond the arc … Held his own in limited post opportunities this season … Strong and determined defender who can successfully defend 2s, 3s, and (college) 4s … Physical on both offense and defense
Projects as a late first round to an early second round pick … One of the more NBA ready players in this year’s draft because of his experience and style of play … 3 and D Wing player who could find a role in the league as a glue guy … Defensive ability could allow for impactful minutes as a rookie
Does he fall to us at19? Do we have any assets to move up a few spots?
He's the guy that I was thinking about really. But we would probably need to add a veteran defender as well.
The Nets don't need offense. we won't have trouble scoring with Kyrie and KD opening up holes in the defense. We need guys that can defend and hold the line in close games.
we need length on the perimeter. Look at how Boston is smacking Toronto up. Marks needs to get it in gear and get this team with the program. we need some athleticism.
MrDollarBills wrote:We need a wing defender that can match up at 2, 3, and even 4 in some situations. We have to deal with Ben, Siakam, Giannis, Butler, and Tatum.
We need someone 6'8, good wingspan and some defensive chops on this roster. Who fits that bill in free agency or via trade? Jrue Holiday or Bradley Beal isn't answering that question.
I made a list above, but really though, I don't know why you mentioned Ben Simmons and Siakam there. Simmons isn't even a scorer, and Siakam is getting exposed big time in the playoffs. Siakam didn't even have a good series against us and we didn't know how to play defense. 6'8" or above wings with good wingspan, who can defend, and are at least serviceable offensively, they aren't easy to find or get.
Guys like Jrue Holiday and even Derrick White absolutely help. They're really good, versatile defenders who can guard multiple positions, and they're good on offense too. Also please keep in mind that KD himself is like 6'11", and was a really good defensive player in Golden State. Obviously, you don't want him to be your defensive specialist but he's someone who can do a really good job defensively.
7footMONSTER wrote:Another option for us to acquire a 3nD wing is through the draft. There is a player who has been discussed before, who might be NBA ready and able to fill that role for us right away.
Saddiq Bey
Spoiler:
Scrappy, confident, high energy forward who broke out this season into one of the most productive players in the Big East … Outstanding three-point shooter who finished at 45% for the season on a high volume of shots (2.5 made threes per game) … Elite catch and shoot perimeter player … High motor, versatile player with the size to play the SF position at the next level (6’8, 216 pounds) and with a near 7-foot wingspan … An overachiever. Bey is a two-way player who stood out on both sides of the ball for #10 Villanova Wildcats this season … Knock down shooter from both mid-range and beyond the arc … Held his own in limited post opportunities this season … Strong and determined defender who can successfully defend 2s, 3s, and (college) 4s … Physical on both offense and defense
Projects as a late first round to an early second round pick … One of the more NBA ready players in this year’s draft because of his experience and style of play … 3 and D Wing player who could find a role in the league as a glue guy … Defensive ability could allow for impactful minutes as a rookie
Does he fall to us at19? Do we have any assets to move up a few spots?
He's the guy that I was thinking about really. But we would probably need to add a veteran defender as well.
The Nets don't need offense. we won't have trouble scoring with Kyrie and KD opening up holes in the defense. We need guys that can defend and hold the line in close games.
In that case, just sign Kris Dunn. The guy is like Marcus Smart defensively, but a negative on defense.
MrDollarBills wrote:we need length on the perimeter. Look at how Boston is smacking Toronto up. Marks needs to get it in gear and get this team with the program. we need some athleticism.
The best defender on the Celtics is 6'4" Marcus Smart, and you guys believe that 6'4" defensive guards aren't worth much.
Man i am so enjoying watching that clown lowry get his ass handed to him.loving it.although i am against any sports team coming from the new england area,it wouldnt hurt to enjoy them Sweep these raptors
Jrue offense and defensive highlights against the Kawhi Raptors, where he picks up Kawhi on multiple possessions (Kawhi had 20 pts on 7-20 FG that game):
MrDollarBills wrote:we need length on the perimeter. Look at how Boston is smacking Toronto up. Marks needs to get it in gear and get this team with the program. we need some athleticism.
The best defender on the Celtics is 6'4" Marcus Smart, and you guys believe that 6'4" defensive guards aren't worth much.
Hold on now, I didn't say that. I've stayed out of the argument for the most part. You should address the people who are saying that.
I personally think that we need one person in our starting line up who is 6'7 and up with good defense and length and another backcourt player who can defend as well. I don't think this core as constructed will win a championship without defenders who have the dog in them in the backcourt and on the wing.
MrDollarBills wrote:we need length on the perimeter. Look at how Boston is smacking Toronto up. Marks needs to get it in gear and get this team with the program. we need some athleticism.
The best defender on the Celtics is 6'4" Marcus Smart, and you guys believe that 6'4" defensive guards aren't worth much.
Hold on now, I didn't say that. I've stayed out of the argument for the most part. You should address the people who are saying that.
I personally think that we need one person in our starting line up who is 6'7 and up with good defense and length and another backcourt player who can defend as well. I don't think this core as constructed will win a championship without defenders who have the dog in them in the backcourt and on the wing.
"We need someone 6'8, good wingspan and some defensive chops on this roster. Who fits that bill in free agency or via trade? Jrue Holiday or Bradley Beal isn't answering that question."
Jrue might not be 6'8" but he's in the elite tier of NBA defenders, and he plays bigger than his size, often guarding bigger players (just like Smart). We already have one person who is 6'7" or above with good defense in KD. Like I said in my post in the list, the move for us is to get someone like Jrue or Derrick White via trade, and then make a move for a good defensive 4 (lets say Larry Nance Jr via trade, or Millsap, Marvin Williams in FA). You make those two moves, and the roster suddenly becomes a lot better balanced with offense/defense.
MrDollarBills wrote:We need a wing defender that can match up at 2, 3, and even 4 in some situations. We have to deal with Ben, Siakam, Giannis, Butler, and Tatum.
We need someone 6'8, good wingspan and some defensive chops on this roster. Who fits that bill in free agency or via trade? Jrue Holiday or Bradley Beal isn't answering that question.
I made a list above, but really though, I don't know why you mentioned Ben Simmons and Siakam there. Simmons isn't even a scorer, and Siakam is getting exposed big time in the playoffs. Siakam didn't even have a good series against us and we didn't know how to play defense. 6'8" or above wings with good wingspan, who can defend, and are at least serviceable offensively, they aren't easy to find or get.
Guys like Jrue Holiday and even Derrick White absolutely help. They're really good, versatile defenders who can guard multiple positions, and they're good on offense too. Also please keep in mind that KD himself is like 6'11", and was a really good defensive player in Golden State. Obviously, you don't want him to be your defensive specialist but he's someone who can do a really good job defensively.
If we don't have adequate defenders, Simmons and Siakam will kill us. We have seen this before against our team. You absolutely have to include them when considering what challenges the Nets will face in the playoffs next season.
We need a bulldog in the backcourt and an athletic wing defender that can be disruptive, if we don't have that next season, we will not win.
I hate to say this, but maybe Marks needs to give up on guys like Rodi and Musa and get us some more help at their positions.
DarkXaero wrote:The best defender on the Celtics is 6'4" Marcus Smart, and you guys believe that 6'4" defensive guards aren't worth much.
Hold on now, I didn't say that. I've stayed out of the argument for the most part. You should address the people who are saying that.
I personally think that we need one person in our starting line up who is 6'7 and up with good defense and length and another backcourt player who can defend as well. I don't think this core as constructed will win a championship without defenders who have the dog in them in the backcourt and on the wing.
"We need someone 6'8, good wingspan and some defensive chops on this roster. Who fits that bill in free agency or via trade? Jrue Holiday or Bradley Beal isn't answering that question."
Jrue might not be 6'8" but he's in the elite tier of NBA defenders, and he plays bigger than his size, often guarding bigger players (just like Smart). We already have one person who is 6'7" or above with good defense in KD. Like I said in my post in the list, the move for us is to get someone like Jrue or Derrick White via trade, and then make a move for a good defensive 4 (lets say Larry Nance Jr via trade, or Millsap, Marvin Williams in FA). You make those two moves, and the roster suddenly becomes a lot better balanced with offense/defense.
I like Larry Nance. I think he's the guy that fits the bill. However, Cleveland has him locked in until '23. What are we offering to them to get him?
MrDollarBills wrote:We need a wing defender that can match up at 2, 3, and even 4 in some situations. We have to deal with Ben, Siakam, Giannis, Butler, and Tatum.
We need someone 6'8, good wingspan and some defensive chops on this roster. Who fits that bill in free agency or via trade? Jrue Holiday or Bradley Beal isn't answering that question.
I made a list above, but really though, I don't know why you mentioned Ben Simmons and Siakam there. Simmons isn't even a scorer, and Siakam is getting exposed big time in the playoffs. Siakam didn't even have a good series against us and we didn't know how to play defense. 6'8" or above wings with good wingspan, who can defend, and are at least serviceable offensively, they aren't easy to find or get.
Guys like Jrue Holiday and even Derrick White absolutely help. They're really good, versatile defenders who can guard multiple positions, and they're good on offense too. Also please keep in mind that KD himself is like 6'11", and was a really good defensive player in Golden State. Obviously, you don't want him to be your defensive specialist but he's someone who can do a really good job defensively.
If we don't have adequate defenders, Simmons and Siakam will kill us. We have seen this before against our team. You absolutely have to include them when considering what challenges the Nets will face in the playoffs next season.
We need a bulldog in the backcourt and an athletic wing defender that can be disruptive, if we don't have that next season, we will not win.
I hate to say this, but maybe Marks needs to give up on guys like Rodi and Musa and get us some more help at their positions.
Siakam isn't killing anyone except his own team right now. Simmons is not effective in halfcourt offense in playoffs (as a scorer). I'm not worried about those two teams anyway, Sixers got swept, and Raps are currently 2-0, and can very possibly lose key players this free agency. The likes of Tatum, Giannis, Butler worry me more.
MrDollarBills wrote: Hold on now, I didn't say that. I've stayed out of the argument for the most part. You should address the people who are saying that.
I personally think that we need one person in our starting line up who is 6'7 and up with good defense and length and another backcourt player who can defend as well. I don't think this core as constructed will win a championship without defenders who have the dog in them in the backcourt and on the wing.
"We need someone 6'8, good wingspan and some defensive chops on this roster. Who fits that bill in free agency or via trade? Jrue Holiday or Bradley Beal isn't answering that question."
Jrue might not be 6'8" but he's in the elite tier of NBA defenders, and he plays bigger than his size, often guarding bigger players (just like Smart). We already have one person who is 6'7" or above with good defense in KD. Like I said in my post in the list, the move for us is to get someone like Jrue or Derrick White via trade, and then make a move for a good defensive 4 (lets say Larry Nance Jr via trade, or Millsap, Marvin Williams in FA). You make those two moves, and the roster suddenly becomes a lot better balanced with offense/defense.
I like Larry Nance. I think he's the guy that fits the bill. However, Cleveland has him locked in until '23. What are we offering to them to get him?
Not sure honestly. I was thinking Prince (for salary purposes) + assets for Nance, but I don't know what kind of assets Cleveland would want. And honestly, Cleveland's roster is mostly trash so its hard to expand it into a bigger deal where you could offer Dinwiddie or Levert.
Just to touch on Marcus Smart specifically, I think he's a non-starter for 2 reasons that are really one:
1. He'll cost too much to attain. You're probably talking Allen/Dinwiddie/19 for him. He's really good, but he's not worth that, but they'll hold us over a barrel for him, because they'll have no desire to trade him if it isn't a great value return, which is also a great on court return.
2. That leads to point 2. Yes it hurts the C's and helps us a lot to grab Marcus Smart, but how much scarier do the C's look with Allen as their starting center and just swapping Dinwiddie for Smart with the rest of their core? Then they also get to add the 19th pick or trade that with other of their assets for another player.
I just don't see us doing business with them any time soon.
Rich Rane wrote:I think we're all missing the point here. vc4pres needs to stop watching games.
vincecarter4pres wrote:Just to touch on Marcus Smart specifically, I think he's a non-starter for 2 reasons that are really one:
1. He'll cost too much to attain. You're probably talking Allen/Dinwiddie/19 for him. He's really good, but he's not worth that, but they'll hold us over a barrel for him, because they'll have no desire to trade him if it isn't a great value return, which is also a great on court return.
2. That leads to point 2. Yes it hurts the C's and helps us a lot to grab Marcus Smart, but how much scarier do the C's look with Allen as their starting center and just swapping Dinwiddie for Smart with the rest of their core? Then they also get to add the 19th pick or trade that with other of their assets for another player.
I just don't see us doing business with them any time soon.
I don't want to deal with Ainge at all. The guy wants to win every trade he makes, and it'll be near impossible to get Smart from them, even by overpaying. He's probably one of the few non-star players in the league, who will be valued like a star by his team.
