What is Jaylen Brown's ceiling?

[Feed Your Head]

Jaylen is a really good individual defender -- on isos and in the post. Still a below average team defender imo. He struggles against shooters who run through screens. He's unable to fight through picks. He's improving as a weakside help defender but also gets caught ballwatching, either getting burned by a backcut, leaving his guy on the corner/wing, or standing still while his guy gets the offensive board. Those late contests where he jumps real high from the paint area doesn't really do much either. Please don't come at me. But we all want our guys to improve. These are areas where he can still improve.

FWIW, the numbers say we've been better defensively with him off the court (1.05 PPP; 92nd percentile) than on the court (1.079 PPP; 77th percentile) in the regular season. And it has nothing to do with Marcus Smart being on the floor replacing him.

[24istheLAW]

Jaylen is a really good individual defender -- on isos and in the post. Still a below average team defender imo. He struggles against shooters who run through screens. He's unable to fight through picks. He's improving as a weakside help defender but also gets caught ballwatching, either getting burned by a backcut, leaving his guy on the corner/wing, or standing still while his guy gets the offensive board. Those late contests where he jumps real high from the paint area doesn't really do much either. Please don't come at me. But we all want our guys to improve. These are areas where he can still improve.

FWIW, the numbers say we've been better defensively with him off the court (1.05 PPP; 92nd percentile) than on the court (1.079 PPP; 77th percentile) in the regular season. And it has nothing to do with Marcus Smart being on the floor replacing him.

It's crazy to me Paul Pierce even said Jaylen is a top 5 two-way player in the league.

The TV analyst guys idea of who is a defensive stopper has infrequently matched the results on the court. Courtney Lee was an elite defensive swingman for years by reputation, and if you delved into the subject with any degree of depth you'd find he's totally mediocre.

[BostonCouchGM]

I'm not his biggest fan. I wonder if I'm less a fan of his or of the people that defend him so vociferously no matter how bad he plays or flawed his game is. Either way, it's rare for me to praise him but today I saw something promising. It's something he should have always been capable of, at least by their 2nd or 3rd season, but better late than never. He took OG Anunoby off the dribble (worse defense than offense as you never give anyone the baseline especially going to their strong hand) and made a great assist to Robert Williams I believe. What made this special is it's the first time I could see he had a plan to pass. He always had tunnel vision, intending to shoot, and sometimes he'd luckily make an athletic desperation pass to someone open, but it wasn't his plan. This time it was. As soon as he took OG off the dribble and was driving along the baseline he anticipated help coming over and knew Willaims was there for the dunk. The game is seemingly slowing down for him. It's taking awhile but this is promising. If he could improve his handle, team defense, and do more of this type of playmaking, he could potentially be a #2. It's a long shot but from me this is pretty positive!

[keevsnick1]

Jaylen is a really good individual defender -- on isos and in the post. Still a below average team defender imo. He struggles against shooters who run through screens. He's unable to fight through picks. He's improving as a weakside help defender but also gets caught ballwatching, either getting burned by a backcut, leaving his guy on the corner/wing, or standing still while his guy gets the offensive board. Those late contests where he jumps real high from the paint area doesn't really do much either. Please don't come at me. But we all want our guys to improve. These are areas where he can still improve.

FWIW, the numbers say we've been better defensively with him off the court (1.05 PPP; 92nd percentile) than on the court (1.079 PPP; 77th percentile) in the regular season. And it has nothing to do with Marcus Smart being on the floor replacing him.

It's crazy to me Paul Pierce even said Jaylen is a top 5 two-way player in the league.

Ya I think you're pretty wrong on the first part, Jaylen is, imo, actually pretty good at following shooters through screens. He does a great job "getting skinny" when asked and has good change of direction agility (he's light on his feet) which helps as do his long arms. There's a reason Jaylen is often the primary point of attack defender. He's not as good as say Marcus Smart at navigating picks but he is pretty good, probably second best on the team. I think his defensive versatility is actually one of his primary strengths, he probably spends more time guarding different player types than just about anybody not named Smart on the team and often takes the other teams best or second best option regardless of who it is.

I agree on the ball watching, he does get back cut to much. But he's improved that since his rookie year. The defense being better with him off court is largely a function of how stevens plays him, which is almost exclusively against starting units. He's a pretty typical "two stint" guy in that his break is right around the quarter change, meaning most his minutes get matched to far superior offensive players which makes sense given his defensive abilities. His biggest weakness right now is probably he can be a step slow reacting on team defense when he's off the ball, that limits his steal/block numbers and contributes to a foul rate thats a little higher then you'd like. But with some moderate improvement I think he could reach all defense levels.

I think sometimes we have a tendency to be overly critical of Jaylen on defense because he is so often matched up against REALLY good offensive players, and especially against guys that are just physically bigger then him. In todays NBA sometimes those players are just going to produce no matter what you do. You arent shutting down Siakam/Harden/AD/Steph/Lebron/Whoeever 100% of the time.

I agree he's not a "top five two way player" tho, thats a little much

[soxfan2003]

Ceiling? My guess his ceiling is moderately better than Jason Richardson on both sides of the court but not as spectacular of a dunker/finisher as Richardson.

I just do not expect Brown to be a near elite defender and without that I don't know how he cracks let's say the top 20 NBA players for more than at most one season.'

It would be great if Brown was someone that could slow down near peak Lebron/KD more than most players but he just isn't that sort of defender. But fortunately, he has already proven to be a better defender than Jason Richardson.

I really don't expect anyone to stop Lebron especially when Lebron is on but an elite physical defender does make life tougher for nearly anyone.

[big-shot-ROB]

Brown is a good defender because he is a hard working kid who listens and has great physical gifts, but he ain't a great one. For all his off-courts smarts (though I've always though he tries to hard sometimes) he really lacks in basketball IQ. The game doesn't come easy to him.

And that can be seen specially on team defense. He doesn't always understand switches and rotations, and ball-watches quite a lot.

I still feel he is our future championship 3rd option when Tatum is a top-10 player and we get Mitchell or Bam. That's his best role. He can shoot, he can drive, he's starting to being able to drive-and-kick and drive-and-drop, but he just doesn't have the necessary quick thinking you need to be a primary or secondary creator. He needs to plan his moves and execute them, but can't really read-and-react in the moment.
That's why he's always been really bad at playmaking or finding the easy pass. He plans he'll finish the layup and can't really react to the defense rotating in a smart way.

[bucknersrevenge]

Brown is a good defender because he is a hard working kid who listens and has great physical gifts, but he ain't a great one. For all his off-courts smarts (though I've always though he tries to hard sometimes) he really lacks in basketball IQ. The game doesn't come easy to him.

And that can be seen specially on team defense. He doesn't always understand switches and rotations, and ball-watches quite a lot.

I still feel he is our future championship 3rd option when Tatum is a top-10 player and we get Mitchell or Bam. That's his best role. He can shoot, he can drive, he's starting to being able to drive-and-kick and drive-and-drop, but he just doesn't have the necessary quick thinking you need to be a primary or secondary creator. He needs to plan his moves and execute them, but can't really read-and-react in the moment.
That's why he's always been really bad at playmaking or finding the easy pass. He plans he'll finish the layup and can't really react to the defense rotating in a smart way.

I feel like everyone in this thread should read this post twice in case there's any confusion on who Jaylen is.

[keevsnick1]

Brown is a good defender because he is a hard working kid who listens and has great physical gifts, but he ain't a great one. For all his off-courts smarts (though I've always though he tries to hard sometimes) he really lacks in basketball IQ. The game doesn't come easy to him.

And that can be seen specially on team defense. He doesn't always understand switches and rotations, and ball-watches quite a lot.

I still feel he is our future championship 3rd option when Tatum is a top-10 player and we get Mitchell or Bam. That's his best role. He can shoot, he can drive, he's starting to being able to drive-and-kick and drive-and-drop, but he just doesn't have the necessary quick thinking you need to be a primary or secondary creator. He needs to plan his moves and execute them, but can't really read-and-react in the moment.
That's why he's always been really bad at play making or finding the easy pass. He plans he'll finish the layup and can't really react to the defense rotating in a smart way.

Honestly I think the ball watching stuff is overstated, and largely an artifact of him being really bad at it as a rookie and even second year layer. He's cleaned up a good bit of that this year. The switches thing is a similar. Will he occasionally mess up a switch? Sure. But literally every NBA player occasionally messes up a switch or gets beaten back door. I don't think Brown is obliviously worse at it than any other guy.

His major weaknesses on defense come from usually being a step slow to respond when he's a help defender. A guy will beat us on the perimeter, Brown is in the help position, but he doesn't recognize the issue until the driver is already in the paint. That does limit his overall defensive impact somewhat, and leads to him picking up some painful fouls. Its also something I could see improving since the only real way to practice it is just in game reps, but we'll see. He certainly has the tools to be a good help defender.

The passing is a similar issue, he has a decent "toolbox" that he occasionally flashes by making great kick out passes, dump offs, or full court bouncers. But he just doesn't "see" the right pass often enough. Although i think he has without a doubt improved on this as the year has gone on from "bad" to more like "below average." Continued improvement in this area will be key for him, but the fact that he has shown at least some improvement does give me hope in this regard.

[bucknersrevenge]

Brown is a good defender because he is a hard working kid who listens and has great physical gifts, but he ain't a great one. For all his off-courts smarts (though I've always though he tries to hard sometimes) he really lacks in basketball IQ. The game doesn't come easy to him.

And that can be seen specially on team defense. He doesn't always understand switches and rotations, and ball-watches quite a lot.

I still feel he is our future championship 3rd option when Tatum is a top-10 player and we get Mitchell or Bam. That's his best role. He can shoot, he can drive, he's starting to being able to drive-and-kick and drive-and-drop, but he just doesn't have the necessary quick thinking you need to be a primary or secondary creator. He needs to plan his moves and execute them, but can't really read-and-react in the moment.
That's why he's always been really bad at play making or finding the easy pass. He plans he'll finish the layup and can't really react to the defense rotating in a smart way.

Honestly I think the ball watching stuff is overstated, and largely an artifact of him being really bad at it as a rookie and even second year layer. He's cleaned up a good bit of that this year. The switches thing is a similar. Will he occasionally mess up a switch? Sure. But literally every NBA player occasionally messes up a switch or gets beaten back door. I don't think Brown is obliviously worse at it than any other guy.

His major weaknesses on defense come from usually being a step slow to respond when he's a help defender. A guy will beat us on the perimeter, Brown is in the help position, but he doesn't recognize the issue until the driver is already in the paint. That does limit his overall defensive impact somewhat, and leads to him picking up some painful fouls. Its also something I could see improving since the only real way to practice it is just in game reps, but we'll see. He certainly has the tools to be a good help defender.

The passing is a similar issue, he has a decent "toolbox" that he occasionally flashes by making great kick out passes, dump offs, or full court bouncers. But he just doesn't "see" the right pass often enough. Although i think he has without a doubt improved on this as the year has gone on from "bad" to more like "below average." Continued improvement in this area will be key for him, but the fact that he has shown at least some improvement does give me hope in this regard.

FWIW, I remember a couple of instances in the 2nd half of the last game where he got backdoored pretty good. One led to a basket. Another led to him getting called for a foul. This isn't just a narrative. He ball-watches. It's a lack of focus and discipline. It's why he's so much better at individual defense (especially in the post where he can use his size, strength, and length). It's the reason he gets called for ticky-tack fouls. In the end, when you're assessing the overall package of Jaylen Brown it's fine. There's much more good than bad here so long as you understand that this stuff IS part of the package. Is it possible with age and maturity he improves in this area? Absolutely. But right now this is where he is.

[keevsnick1]

Brown is a good defender because he is a hard working kid who listens and has great physical gifts, but he ain't a great one. For all his off-courts smarts (though I've always though he tries to hard sometimes) he really lacks in basketball IQ. The game doesn't come easy to him.

And that can be seen specially on team defense. He doesn't always understand switches and rotations, and ball-watches quite a lot.

I still feel he is our future championship 3rd option when Tatum is a top-10 player and we get Mitchell or Bam. That's his best role. He can shoot, he can drive, he's starting to being able to drive-and-kick and drive-and-drop, but he just doesn't have the necessary quick thinking you need to be a primary or secondary creator. He needs to plan his moves and execute them, but can't really read-and-react in the moment.
That's why he's always been really bad at play making or finding the easy pass. He plans he'll finish the layup and can't really react to the defense rotating in a smart way.

Honestly I think the ball watching stuff is overstated, and largely an artifact of him being really bad at it as a rookie and even second year layer. He's cleaned up a good bit of that this year. The switches thing is a similar. Will he occasionally mess up a switch? Sure. But literally every NBA player occasionally messes up a switch or gets beaten back door. I don't think Brown is obliviously worse at it than any other guy.

His major weaknesses on defense come from usually being a step slow to respond when he's a help defender. A guy will beat us on the perimeter, Brown is in the help position, but he doesn't recognize the issue until the driver is already in the paint. That does limit his overall defensive impact somewhat, and leads to him picking up some painful fouls. Its also something I could see improving since the only real way to practice it is just in game reps, but we'll see. He certainly has the tools to be a good help defender.

The passing is a similar issue, he has a decent "toolbox" that he occasionally flashes by making great kick out passes, dump offs, or full court bouncers. But he just doesn't "see" the right pass often enough. Although i think he has without a doubt improved on this as the year has gone on from "bad" to more like "below average." Continued improvement in this area will be key for him, but the fact that he has shown at least some improvement does give me hope in this regard.

FWIW, I remember a couple of instances in the 2nd half of the last game where he got backdoored pretty good. One led to a basket. Another led to him getting called for a foul. This isn't just a narrative. He ball-watches. It's a lack of focus and discipline. It's why he's so much better at individual defense (especially in the post where he can use his size, strength, and length). It's the reason he gets called for ticky-tack fouls. In the end, when you're assessing the overall package of Jaylen Brown it's fine. There's much more good than bad here so long as you understand that this stuff IS part of the package. Is it possible with age and maturity he improves in this area? Absolutely. But right now this is where he is.

I just don't agree with the two bolded statements, although I think we're arguing over magnitude more than anything. I saw the two missed cuts, it stood out to me because it doesn't happen nearly as often as it used to. Look, I'm not saying it never happens, I'm only saying that it's and exaggeration to call it a "significant weakness" or to say he ball watches "quite a lot." He can still clean it up more, but if people didn't have the "ball watching" in their mind from what they saw as a rookie I don't think they apply that label to him now. I think he's a pretty fundamentally sound defender.

But admittedly this is a somewhat subjective opinion. Mostly I'm just arguing this because I feel like Jaylen's kind of defense gets very underrated because he doesn't make as many "strip steals" as Smart or "out of nowhere blocks" like Tatum, but what he does do is still very helpful to a defense and helps put those guys in a position to make those WOW plays. He's a very good defender, with the potential to be ALL-NBA if he can tune up his off ball responses.

[playa-hater]

Brown is a good defender because he is a hard working kid who listens and has great physical gifts, but he ain't a great one. For all his off-courts smarts (though I've always though he tries to hard sometimes) he really lacks in basketball IQ. The game doesn't come easy to him.

And that can be seen specially on team defense. He doesn't always understand switches and rotations, and ball-watches quite a lot.

I still feel he is our future championship 3rd option when Tatum is a top-10 player and we get Mitchell or Bam. That's his best role. He can shoot, he can drive, he's starting to being able to drive-and-kick and drive-and-drop, but he just doesn't have the necessary quick thinking you need to be a primary or secondary creator. He needs to plan his moves and execute them, but can't really read-and-react in the moment.
That's why he's always been really bad at playmaking or finding the easy pass. He plans he'll finish the layup and can't really react to the defense rotating in a smart way.

*"when we get Mitchell or Bam"

do you know something I don't?

[ConstableGeneva]

Read on Twitter

[playa-hater]

Read on Twitter

too bad no one told JB how to play a zone defense !!

[BostonCouchGM]

like I've been trying to tell people, if Jaylen isn't hitting the WIDE open threes his teammates set him up with every game, he's almost useless on offense. He brings absolutely nothing to the table on offense besides that. He's a 3 and D. And people are upset he didn't make the all-star game? Only in a weak Eastern Conference with a handful of all-stars injured was he even on the bubble with several other players, as or more deserving than him. He can't dribble. He can't create for himself unless he has a major mismatch and he cannot create for others. And his sometimes stout man defense is negated by his team defense and inconsistency with man defense effort. The huge problem is his major flaws are innate for the most part because he's more of an athlete than a natural basketball player and there's only so much you can do.

[playa-hater]

like I've been trying to tell people, if Jaylen isn't hitting the WIDE open threes his teammates set him up with every game, he's almost useless on offense. He brings absolutely nothing to the table on offense besides that. He's a 3 and D. And people are upset he didn't make the all-star game? Only in a weak Eastern Conference with a handful of all-stars injured was he even on the bubble with several other players, as or more deserving than him. He can't dribble. He can't create for himself unless he has a major mismatch and he cannot create for others. And his sometimes stout man defense is negated by his team defense and inconsistency with man defense effort. The huge problem is his major flaws are innate for the most part because he's more of an athlete than a natural basketball player and there's only so much you can do.

I half agree. JB is more than a 3-d player as he is very good, at times attacking the rim.. something he did not do at all. I think it is kore under the category of NOT all players are made for the playoffs.. JB even at his best has always been a Low IQ player who relied on skills and athleticism and not feel for the game and things like that..

Either way his stock is down at the moment..

[Feed Your Head]

Jaylen now shooting 41/31/89 in the playoffs. No Hayward is really hurting him, it sucks.

His game is really limited, which I’m sure will make some people angry.

[jfs1000d]

Jaylen now shooting 41/31/89 in the playoffs. No Hayward is really hurting him, it sucks.

His game is really limited, which I’m sure will make some people angry.

He has played excellent D. The shooting is odd. He is a better shooter than that. I smell a bust out game coming .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Feed Your Head]

Jaylen now shooting 41/31/89 in the playoffs. No Hayward is really hurting him, it sucks.

His game is really limited, which I’m sure will make some people angry.

He has played excellent D. The shooting is odd. He is a better shooter than that. I smell a bust out game coming .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

His post defense has been amazing, he is so much better bodying dudes in the post than chasing guards around the perimeter.

[jfs1000d]

like I've been trying to tell people, if Jaylen isn't hitting the WIDE open threes his teammates set him up with every game, he's almost useless on offense. He brings absolutely nothing to the table on offense besides that. He's a 3 and D. And people are upset he didn't make the all-star game? Only in a weak Eastern Conference with a handful of all-stars injured was he even on the bubble with several other players, as or more deserving than him. He can't dribble. He can't create for himself unless he has a major mismatch and he cannot create for others. And his sometimes stout man defense is negated by his team defense and inconsistency with man defense effort. The huge problem is his major flaws are innate for the most part because he's more of an athlete than a natural basketball player and there's only so much you can do.

I half agree. JB is more than a 3-d player as he is very good, at times attacking the rim.. something he did not do at all. I think it is kore under the category of NOT all players are made for the playoffs.. JB even at his best has always been a Low IQ player who relied on skills and athleticism and not feel for the game and things like that..

Either way his stock is down at the moment..

Brown has never been a low IQ player who relied on athleticism. You see great athlete and immediately assume he lacks skills and smarts.

He is a very smart basketball player. He doesn’t make dumb plays.

I dont think there is a low IQ B-Ball player on the team.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ConstableGeneva]

Watch on YouTube

0:02-0:12 - PnR w/ Theis: Jaylen correctly doesn't force a shot, relocates behind the arc, and gets the ball back via Smart's closeout drive-and-kick. Swish 3.
0:14-0:20 - Might have settled for the iso 3; could've swung back the ball to Smart or driven baseline; ran back hard to defend!
0:25-0:32 - Good 3-attempt via ball movement in semi-transition
0:40-0:46 - He thrives in transition; Good take against the smaller FVV
1:06-1:10 - Another good take after crossing FVV; that's his shot
1:18-1:21 - Gets his hands dirty to force a jump ball

1:32-1:42 - My favorite play from him not because he got a highlight dunk off it but because he made the right read in transition. Instead of forcing 1-on-2, he gives up the ball to Smart to get it back. Hockey assist. Also, Semi's reaction LOL

1:49 - This is his staple -- catch-and-shoot 3s off passes from teammates. Money.
1:54 - Got his hand on the ball against Ibaka; Cs run again
1:59 - Heat check? Bad shot lol.
2:04 - Dunno if this is a playcall or Brown just reading the defense, but it was great -- Raps showing two against Kemba, Jaylen slips the screen to get an easy one under the basket.
2:17 - This is just a great play by Lowry who swallowed his dribble even before he could pass it to Smart; Maybe could've lobbed to Grant who had Powell sealed instead of forcing the drive? It didn't cost us because... Marcus Smart.
2:33-2:39 - Another strong take in transition
2:44-2:50 - Pretty sure they cleared the left side for Jaylen to attack that closeout; Another money shot over a smaller guy

Too lazy to go through 2nd half LOL but love how they used him in this game. Mix of PnR ballhandling, iso vs. mismatches, him as a screener, and his usual dose of catch-and-shoot 3s & attacking in transition.